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  1. #1
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    A Lines or B Lines?

    I have been thinking how nice it would be for land managers to allow the highly skilled riders (5%’ers) to construct A Lines along trails enjoyed by lesser skilled (95%’er) riders.

    Certainly the terrain in areas like Sedona, Phoenix, Tucson, Moab, Fruita and Grand Junction have numerous spots where a optional A Lines could be added on lessor skilled trails that the 5%’ers are most likely not enjoying riding.

    The problem as I see it is the land managers have no incentive or budget to add such challenging features.

    In Sedona we have a fairly new trail called the Thunder Mt. Reroute. On that very challenging trail it was discussed that A Lines were to be added to the trail to make it more challenging for the higher skilled riders.

    Since the trail was built I have seen several challenging sections improved so lesser skilled riders would have a better chance riding them, but I have seen no more challenging lines added. What I don’t understand is why the local 5%’ers haven’t requested the land manager to incorporate more challenging A Lines on the lesser skilled sections? If I was a 5%’er I would certainly be flagging out more challenging lines off the lesser skilled lines to make the trail MORE FUN to ride. Then I would be asking the land manager if they could built the new A Lines or let some volunteer group build them.

    So far the actions of the land manager indicate they have higher priorities than making new A Lines on the Thunder Mt. Reroute. It also seems like the volunteer 5%’ers have other priorities than building more challenging sections on that trail. Why do the readers of this post think the volunteer higher skilled riders are building higher skilled sections.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  3. #3
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    I see that here, at one trail system in particular. Often the "B line" is thought of as bypassing a technical feature, but we also have some that give the option of riding jumps, drops or chunkier sections that the original trail avoided.
    I think you're on to something mentioning the volunteers, as the trail system I'm familiar with that has the tougher B lines also has some very skilled riders doing trail maintenance there, while the one that has easier B lines has a greater number of people who do more group rides and related social activities working on it. At least that's my perception from being familiar both trail systems, and knowing(if only by sight or social media) a few of the people involved.
    I don't know anything about the "rules" at either place, or how much freedom trail crews have as far as changing or making additions to the trails, though.

  4. #4
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    I'm not sure I understand the question, but a thought came to mind. It's difficult to manufacture "technicality" on a trail that is not already technical -- that is, without drastically departing from the main line and creating braids. It could be the riders you speak of just aren't seeing the possibilities with the particular trail or have deemed it to be too much effort to create minimal gains. The best bet is to just scope the trail for natural transitions and then construct jumps into them off the side of the trail. That's not really adding 'technicality' per se, but it is a relatively easy way to make the more highly skilled riders happier with an otherwise un-challenging trail.

    Even then though, you run into situation where someone will deem the jumps "unsafe" and cut them down, even if they are rollable and/or built off to the side of the main line. This happened on a local trail that was actually sanctioned and built for DH riding (after a grueling climb). For a while, we had pretty free reign on what we could build on that trail within the marked route, and there were a lot of volunteers working on it. However, once real jumps started to appear, the FS put the kibosh on people adding features. Real jumps were then cut down and rounded so that you had to be really dialed to get any air over them. Currently, it is still a very fun trail that I ride all the time, but it presents little to no technical challenge and is very far from a real DH course, despite a lot of people thinking it is.

    The trails that are still technical in my neck of the woods happen to be old school routes that were built before mountain biking came about, and were built with a lot of fall-line routes. If you get to know the trails and all their features, and ride FAST, there are plenty of opportunities to launch off roots/rocks and gap over technical terrain, etc. But the minute we start putting lips on things -- it'll attract attention and get shut down immediately, possibly leading to the closure of the trail to bikes. I've learned that it's best to keep a low profile and ride these trails without hyping them up too much -- let alone risk everything by building more challenging features on them.
    Bikes belong in Wilderness areas.

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    Good gawd reading about A and B lines makes me want to throw up in my mouth about as much as seeing the word "flow" when describing MTB trails.

    How bout this for a concept. One line. Leave or build an advanced trail as an advanced trail. One trail, one line, no alternate braids to bypass trail sections. Then leave or build easier trails for lesser skilled riders as intermediate or beginner trails. Doing it this way will be much simpler all the way around in the planning and execution. And less impactful on the environment. If one finds themselves come upon a section of trail that they don't feel comfortable riding then...... wait for it......yup get off and walk that section until you are skilled enough to ride it.

    This isn't hard people.

  6. #6
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    Down-bike. Leave the plastic wonder bike at home when you encounter such a situation.

    Ride those trails faster on a "lesser", lighter, faster bike. Maybe a SS with taller gearing.

    Through the years I've biked in areas with very different styles of trails. I've changed my bikes accordingly to keep it challenging.

    Making trails into something they are not, or fighting the neutering, is a loosing battle. It is what it is. It is easier to adapt one's self.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Good gawd reading about A and B lines makes me want to throw up in my mouth about as much as seeing the word "flow" when describing MTB trails.

    How bout this for a concept. One line. Leave or build an advanced trail as an advanced trail. One trail, one line, no alternate braids to bypass trail sections. Then leave or build easier trails for lesser skilled riders as intermediate or beginner trails. Doing it this way will be much simpler all the way around in the planning and execution. And less impactful on the environment. If one finds themselves come upon a section of trail that they don't feel comfortable riding then...... wait for it......yup get off and walk that section until you are skilled enough to ride it.

    This isn't hard people.
    I pretty much agree with this. A couple of alt lines in a few spots is ok but if they are a constant, I don't like it. It looks ugly (as do most flow trails) and you lose that sensation of just riding through the woods (your terrain may vary) and getting away from it all. I often ride at a very popular nearby trail system and they have recently gotten into adding a bunch of alt lines and new trails next to existing trails and it just starts to feel too artificial or something, can't quite describe it. And if riders always have a way of avoiding a section, they may never progress.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Good gawd reading about A and B lines makes me want to throw up in my mouth about as much as seeing the word "flow" when describing MTB trails.

    How bout this for a concept. One line. Leave or build an advanced trail as an advanced trail. One trail, one line, no alternate braids to bypass trail sections. Then leave or build easier trails for lesser skilled riders as intermediate or beginner trails. Doing it this way will be much simpler all the way around in the planning and execution. And less impactful on the environment. If one finds themselves come upon a section of trail that they don't feel comfortable riding then...... wait for it......yup get off and walk that section until you are skilled enough to ride it.

    This isn't hard people.
    This ^ unfortunately the sport has transformed into a whiny milenial like, selfish me, me, me attitude. Self entitlement with pussified lines to suit inept skill sets. Build the bikes more capable and make the trails easier. Makes sense doesn’t it?

    Trail braiding from mountain biking gives other trail users [hikers and alike] an even worse view and opinion on us. One trail one line, if you can’t make a section walk the focking thing or take up golf.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Down-bike. Leave the plastic wonder bike at home when you encounter such a situation.

    Ride those trails faster on a "lesser", lighter, faster bike. Maybe a SS with taller gearing.

    Through the years I've biked in areas with very different styles of trails. I've changed my bikes accordingly to keep it challenging.

    Making trails into something they are not, or fighting the neutering, is a loosing battle. It is what it is. It is easier to adapt one's self.
    Agreed. I'm finding that more and more often, my 29" hardtail is more fun to ride on the newer trails since they are designed to take away the technical aspects of mountain biking.

    I am finding that I have to search further and further to find trails worthy of needing my modern bike. Thankfully they're still out there and haven't been given the "flow" treatment yet.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    This ^ unfortunately the sport has transformed into a whiny milenial like, selfish me, me, me attitude. Self entitlement with pussified lines to suit inept skill sets. Build the bikes more capable and make the trails easier. Makes sense doesn’t it?

    Trail braiding from mountain biking gives other trail users [hikers and alike] an even worse view and opinion on us. One trail one line, if you can’t make a section walk the focking thing or take up golf.
    i have always said "there is no shame in walking".

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    Agreed. I'm finding that more and more often, my 29" hardtail is more fun to ride on the newer trails since they are designed to take away the technical aspects of mountain biking.

    I am finding that I have to search further and further to find trails worthy of needing my modern bike. Thankfully they're still out there and haven't been given the "flow" treatment yet.


    Yeah.

    It is a matter of picking the right tool for the job, rather than trying to change the job to suit the tool.

    The combination of the right bike, on the right trail, with the proper skill set... now that is a recipe for flow.

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    Trails on a whole were more techy and chunky back when we were all riding very minimalistic bicycles fully rigid or very minimal front front suspension and we made due just fine. This whole "flow trail" phenomenon wasn't even close to being a thing. Every trail had and has flow if you make it so. I don't care how chunky tight twisty erratic willy nilly the trail is. Flow is about the rider not the trail. I'm turning 45 next week and have owned all kinds of MTB's over the last 30 years and still much prefer the light tackle approach on even the chunkiest trails. Look up the new Specialized Epic expert hardtail. Does everything my 2016 Honzo did but faster, more nimble and more fun. "But ooooh how is that possible when the HA is 69.8 degrees vs 68 degrees on the Honzo, and how about the 430mm CS length vs 415mm on the Honzo and 20mm less fork travel?" Lol so funny how so many people eat up the whole "modern trail geometry" sales pitch lol. The Epic HT is so flicky and light and never over gunned for these machine built crazy expensive mamby pamby trails that are spreading like the plague. One of the last Kingdom trails trip I did I just brought my cyclocross bike and did 100 miles of trail riding over 2.5 days there. BLOWING by 6" travel droppah post slack low long with water backpacks on and shin guards the whole weekend haha 😀

  13. #13
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    here's one of my opinions:

    we can all personalize our bikes to fit personal preference or riding style. granted, one does not buy a DH rig to ride XC but telling me a 780mm bar or 60mm stem is exactly what i need to do this that or the other thing does not hold water in my book.

    i can pretty much do the same trails on my 100mm hardtail i ride the 120mm trail bike on--the trail bike allows me to feel a little less beat up after a long day--even if i'm just riding fire roads with a few rocky singletrack trails tossed in.

    thank goodness nobody is dumbing down what few of the steeper, chunkier sections i know of in the marin headlands which come to mind, like SCA in the headlands or the more challenging sections of the eldridge grade trail on mt tam. i have ridden both these trails on the barely suspended hardtails hacksaw reynold speaks of and aboard dualies. sometimes i have to walk or slow way down, sometimes i can fly right through sections that otherwise give me trouble.

    other spots have naturally occurring, less challenging secondary lines used by riders of lesser skill.

    i'm rambling on a bit, but hey. mountain biking to me has always been riding trails in front of me and chilling on the sections i can't handle.

    A line or B line, ride within your ability but carefully test your limits, that's my motto.

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    Pardon the rant haha. Just getting it out of my system as early as possible in 2018 to spare y'all any unnecessary aggravation.🙂

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Yeah.

    It is a matter of picking the right tool for the job, rather than trying to change the job to suit the tool.

    The combination of the right bike, on the right trail, with the proper skill set... now that is a recipe for flow.
    Agreed again. My favorite moments ever on a mountain bike were instances where the trail looked suicidal and yet I found a smooth, flowy line through it -- whether by gapping sections of gnar or just finding a magic line through it. The feeling is indescribable.

    Sadly, it seems to be a thing that modern riders are more seldomly seeking these days.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Pardon the rant haha. Just getting it out of my system as early as possible in 2018 to spare y'all any unnecessary aggravation.
    So the first 178 times you claimed to be faster on double black diamond trails riding a rigid singlespeed than all the people on carbon full squish bikes with dropper posts didn't "get it out of your system", but now it is? I'll bet your wrong.

    I thought the OP had a valid point. Lots of trails where I live that are old hiking trails where some great mtb features were intentionally bypassed. Not too many hikers want to go down steep rollers or jump off drops, but there they are, 10 ft. from the trail. If land managers let us we would be all over turning them into sweet trail features that added to the frequently rocky, slow, grindy technical trails we ride.

  17. #17
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    Ugh....here we go again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    ...unfortunately the sport has transformed into a whiny milenial like, selfish me, me, me attitude. Self entitlement with pussified lines to suit inept skill sets. Build the bikes more capable and make the trails easier. Makes sense doesn’t it?

    Trail braiding from mountain biking gives other trail users [hikers and alike] an even worse view and opinion on us. One trail one line, if you can’t make a section walk the focking thing or take up golf.
    This, unfortunately.

    I see no need for B-Lines. Ride the trail as it was designed and intended by those who built it, or walk sections of it if you have to, or if it's way too hard and/or you don't like walking now and then, then go ride something else and keep working on your skills.

    I don't understand what part of this is so hard to grasp.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  18. #18
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    While I can empathize with the "one line for all" ethos, and I will happily build trails I can't clean, what must be realized is that it all comes down to the land managers parameters for the trail in question. If they want a blue trail that connects to other blue trails, that's what you're gonna get, even if it's built right next to sweet rock ledge stepdowns.

    It's taken at least a decade, but our local parks department is finally on board with us adding as much tech as we can to every trail, even within the standard parameters of it's got to be 8-10% and rideable in both directions. Which means that the choice is do you build right next to the nice rock ledges that you can't climb up and leave it as that, or do you then add an alternate line for those descending to drop them? I know which one we choose.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Ugh....here we go again.



    This, unfortunately.

    I see no need for B-Lines. Ride the trail as it was designed and intended by those who built it, or walk sections of it if you have to, or if it's way too hard and/or you don't like walking now and then, then go ride something else and keep working on your skills.

    I don't understand what part of this is so hard to grasp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    This ^ unfortunately the sport has transformed into a whiny milenial like, selfish me, me, me attitude. Self entitlement with pussified lines to suit inept skill sets. Build the bikes more capable and make the trails easier. Makes sense doesn’t it?

    Trail braiding from mountain biking gives other trail users [hikers and alike] an even worse view and opinion on us. One trail one line, if you can’t make a section walk the focking thing or take up golf.
    👍👍👍👍👍👍

  21. #21
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    Maybe someone can help me. The OP wants to discuss "Adding A lines (difficult technical features, drops, jumps, etc.) to trails that lack them", and the usual crew wants to rant about "Dumbing down trails by making B-lines to go around the A-lines". I mean, I don't think you could read something and miss the point any more than that. In fact, it's pretty much what you would call "opposite". So, here's where I need help. I don't want to say "what dopes" or "idiots" or make a sarcastic comment like "reading comprehension isn't your stong point is it?", but I'm no English major so I lack an in depth vocabulary to describe this kind of behavior. Would the word "myopic" fit here? If not, what would?

  22. #22
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    Hey Smithcreek, #keepsingletracksingle.

    The end.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Maybe someone can help me. The OP wants to discuss "Adding A lines (difficult technical features, drops, jumps, etc.) to trails that lack them", and the usual crew wants to rant about "Dumbing down trails by making B-lines to go around the A-lines". I mean, I don't think you could read something and miss the point any more than that. In fact, it's pretty much what you would call "opposite". So, here's where I need help. I don't want to say "what dopes" or "idiots" or make a sarcastic comment like "reading comprehension isn't your stong point is it?", but I'm no English major so I lack an in depth vocabulary to describe this kind of behavior. Would the word "myopic" fit here? If not, what would?
    Maybe if you understood a little more about the OP's history and past comments on this topic, and if you read between the lines of what he is really saying here, you'd understand some of the responses a little more. I wouldn't recommend taking this guys' trolling at face value, personally. But carry on as you will...
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    👍👍👍👍👍👍
    I completely agree with this. And what’s with the OPs angle that “land managers” should be making trails to suit his ( or the 5 percenters) needs. A Little entitled are we?

  25. #25
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    You keep mentioning Phoenix.... but it doesn't seem like you actually ride here.

    I ride pretty much every trail system in the Valley on a regular basis (excluding Gold Canyon and Hawes- I could drive to Sedona faster from my house in Peoria)

    There are A-lines and B-Lines all over the place on most trail systems. Hell I rode "coast to coast" and back on T100 today, and there are cheater lines on the cheater lines, and "advanced lines" on advanced lines.

    With the profound lack of rain here and the subsequent vegetation die-off, the whole freaking desert is becoming one big braided ribbon of alt-lines.
    Don’t modify the trail to match your skills, modify your skills to match the trails.

  26. #26
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    I'm entering my 33rd year of riding and racing mountain bikes, and as bikes have reached a level where they're more capable than ever, trails are becoming nothing more than paths. I blame it on the participation trophy generation.

    ETA The dumbing down of trails leads to rogue and illegal trails, and poaching. The PCT is in my backyard and it doesn't have a B line.
    Last edited by Vader; 01-01-2018 at 06:36 PM.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    I have been thinking how nice it would be for land managers to allow the highly skilled riders (5%’ers) to construct A Lines along trails enjoyed by lesser skilled (95%’er) riders.

    Certainly the terrain in areas like Sedona, Phoenix, Tucson, Moab, Fruita and Grand Junction have numerous spots where a optional A Lines could be added on lessor skilled trails that the 5%’ers are most likely not enjoying riding.

    The problem as I see it is the land managers have no incentive or budget to add such challenging features.

    In Sedona we have a fairly new trail called the Thunder Mt. Reroute. On that very challenging trail it was discussed that A Lines were to be added to the trail to make it more challenging for the higher skilled riders.

    Since the trail was built I have seen several challenging sections improved so lesser skilled riders would have a better chance riding them, but I have seen no more challenging lines added. What I don’t understand is why the local 5%’ers haven’t requested the land manager to incorporate more challenging A Lines on the lesser skilled sections? If I was a 5%’er I would certainly be flagging out more challenging lines off the lesser skilled lines to make the trail MORE FUN to ride. Then I would be asking the land manager if they could built the new A Lines or let some volunteer group build them.

    So far the actions of the land manager indicate they have higher priorities than making new A Lines on the Thunder Mt. Reroute. It also seems like the volunteer 5%’ers have other priorities than building more challenging sections on that trail. Why do the readers of this post think the volunteer higher skilled riders are building higher skilled sections.
    If I'm reading this correct then that's exactly what is happening here in Bentonville. Trail that could be considered XC (not going to get into that argument just a good way to convey the point) is being reworked. The original tame easy line is being left in place but jumps, drops, rock gardens, etc. are being added as offshoots.

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  28. #28
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    Leave the easy trails easy, the hard trails hard. Those who manipulate trails for their own selfish reasons are dicks. I thought the first rule of mountain biking is "don't be a dick."

    I have to ride easy trails as connectors to the really nasty ones I enjoy. The way I see it, I'm on my bike, on a trail...what's not fun about that?

  29. #29
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    More SeDrama?

    I swear, that place produces more bellyaches over trails than anywhere else I know.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    . One of the last Kingdom trails trip I did I just brought my cyclocross bike and did 100 miles of trail riding over 2.5 days there. BLOWING by 6" travel droppah post slack low long with water backpacks on and shin guards the whole weekend haha
    Did you have your Strava running? Prolly took KOMs everywhere.



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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Maybe someone can help me. The OP wants to discuss "Adding A lines (difficult technical features, drops, jumps, etc.) to trails that lack them", and the usual crew wants to rant about "Dumbing down trails by making B-lines to go around the A-lines". I mean, I don't think you could read something and miss the point any more than that. In fact, it's pretty much what you would call "opposite". So, here's where I need help. I don't want to say "what dopes" or "idiots" or make a sarcastic comment like "reading comprehension isn't your stong point is it?", but I'm no English major so I lack an in depth vocabulary to describe this kind of behavior. Would the word "myopic" fit here? If not, what would?
    sc thank you so much for summarizing what I stated in my initial post. In the hundreds of different places I have ridden B Line trails I very seldom see A Lines being constructed for me to improve my riding skills. I thoroughly enjoy riding the B Line trail but A Line challenges would make me a better rider.

    What amazes me is how ambitious the B Line riders are in creating B Lines on A Line trails. I would think the 5%'ers would be equally as ambitious about creating A Lines for us lessor skilled riders to improve our riding skill so we would have MOORE opportunity to be admired by our fellow riders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    Did you have your Strava running? Prolly took KOMs everywhere.



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    STRAVA hahahaha.😂

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    This ^ unfortunately the sport has transformed into a whiny milenial like, selfish me, me, me attitude. Self entitlement with pussified lines to suit inept skill sets. Build the bikes more capable and make the trails easier. Makes sense doesn’t it?

    Trail braiding from mountain biking gives other trail users [hikers and alike] an even worse view and opinion on us. One trail one line, if you can’t make a section walk the focking thing or take up golf.
    Or take up full-time posting on MTBR. You post a message, on average, every 45 minutes of every single day. you post about the need to post more messages. You post about how you feel, what you with on tv, what you listen to, birds, Bigfoot, you post about why other people aren't posting . I'm wondering if you own or ride a bike. When would you have time to ride a bike? I get that it's 10 degrees where you live and like many angry people on MTBR, you don't have anything else to keep you occupied. Unmarried, alone, bored, it's cold outside, so why not hijack as many threads as possible and pad your thread count.

    And why keep writing something the super-mod already deleted once? And why attack the super-mod? What is the upside to doing that? If you didn't have these forums, you wouldn't likely have a life. This is your life.

    Here's a thought. If you actually own a bike, load it up and drive to Arizona. Switchblade and I will take you on some rides. He'll take you places you can't ride and will have to walk. I'll take you out until you bonk and have to lie down. But we will give you plenty of opportunity to explain your philosophy about trail building, even if you can't actually ride our trails.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Good gawd reading about A and B lines makes me want to throw up in my mouth about as much as seeing the word "flow" when describing MTB trails.

    How bout this for a concept. One line. Leave or build an advanced trail as an advanced trail. One trail, one line, no alternate braids to bypass trail sections. Then leave or build easier trails for lesser skilled riders as intermediate or beginner trails. Doing it this way will be much simpler all the way around in the planning and execution. And less impactful on the environment. If one finds themselves come upon a section of trail that they don't feel comfortable riding then...... wait for it......yup get off and walk that section until you are skilled enough to ride it.

    This isn't hard people.
    There is no hope for you. You are just too angry and far to unwilling to compromise. It is you way or it is wrong. Nobody is asking you to ride lines you hate. Just ride where you want and leave the rest of us alone. We obviously are not as angry as you and are willing to accommodate riders of all abilities while offering them options that meet their needs. This bothers you but it doesn't bother many others accept a few malcontents on these forums. You really must understand that your angry posts are not going to change anything. No land manager will ever pay attention to someone with your attitude. You will always be ignored. That might explain why you are stuck here, as your only place to vent your anger.

    I have been riding a lot lately. We are having a month of 70-75 degree temps. Yesterday, I rode with my wife and I noticed over a dozen A-lines that were slightly replaced with new A-lines. Not a drastic change, just a newer line riders are wearing in to replace the original line. And why not? The builder of the trails was a bit of a novice and not a rider. He had little understanding of the speed of a bike vs. the speed of horses and hikers. He designed and built trails with tight radius turns. He forced bikes to brake often and sometimes hard, creating washboard tread. Now he is building on Phase Three of this particular preserve and he has figured it out. He now owns a bike and he listens to riders. The turns are sweepers. Some have banks to allow riders to carry speed around them. But new lines are constantly being made in places. Some original lines are fading. some will remain. Some hikers throw branches and rocks over the lines they don't approve of. Sometimes that debris stays there and sometimes it is quickly removed. None of this has any affect on how much I enjoy riding. As long as the brush is cut back enough to prevent getting deep cuts from sharp plants, I'm going to ride all day and have fun. Riders like you will always find something on a ride that makes them angry, and then come to MTBR forums to vent your anger. It might be time to accept the fact that you aren't changing anything out on the trails by what you say here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    So the first 178 times you claimed to be faster on double black diamond trails riding a rigid singlespeed than all the people on carbon full squish bikes with dropper posts didn't "get it out of your system", but now it is? I'll bet your wrong.

    I thought the OP had a valid point. Lots of trails where I live that are old hiking trails where some great mtb features were intentionally bypassed. Not too many hikers want to go down steep rollers or jump off drops, but there they are, 10 ft. from the trail. If land managers let us we would be all over turning them into sweet trail features that added to the frequently rocky, slow, grindy technical trails we ride.
    Switchblade does have a valid point. You are quite correct. Don't expect the usual group of malcontents to notice. They may not have read the OP. Providing more opportunities to more riders is not something they can grasp. Switchblade suggests that trails have more opportunities for challenges and the people who want more challenges say that it a bad idea. How reasonable do they sound? How rational? I know, I know, not very.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Ugh....here we go again.



    This, unfortunately.

    I see no need for B-Lines. Ride the trail as it was designed and intended by those who built it, or walk sections of it if you have to, or if it's way too hard and/or you don't like walking now and then, then go ride something else and keep working on your skills.

    I don't understand what part of this is so hard to grasp.
    Or, there is a need for B-lines, and the proof is the number of B-lines we all see. The trails are often poorly designed or designed for hiking and not for bikes traveling at higher speeds. Trails evolve. New lines are often the preferred lines. They might not even be considered B-lines. Sometimes they are improved A-lines. Lines made for bikes, not hikers.

    When someone is pathological in their posting on MTBR forums, and you quote them as having valid observations, you may have invalidated everything you were trying to say. Maybe just go ride your bike on whatever trail you like, walk if you have to, and ignore all of us out there enjoying every possible option we are given to ride. Nobody is causing you any harm. Move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Or, there is a need for B-lines, and the proof is the number of B-lines we all see.
    That is some truly laughable logic. Because you observe something, that means there is automatically a "need?" Ever go to a popular dirt bike/atv area and observed trails heading everywhere all over the landscape? Does that demonstrate some sort of a "need" for all those trails? Or does it represent a bunch of self-absorbed people who don't give a damn and go wherever they please, regardless of the impact?

    The trails are often poorly designed or designed for hiking and not for bikes traveling at higher speeds.
    Another sweeping over-generalization to suit your agenda. Regardless, even when either of those factors exist, they can be addressed without creating B-lines.

    Trails evolve. New lines are often the preferred lines. They might not even be considered B-lines. Sometimes they are improved A-lines. Lines made for bikes, not hikers.
    Which is how you end up with a braided shitshow of multiple trails, which in my experience, land managers hate. And it's something they will often quote in their reluctance to allow more bike trails.

    ....and ignore all of us out there enjoying every possible option we are given to ride.
    You aren't being "given" anything. By your own statements on this forum, you are advocating for it and creating it. And you are coming on here and espousing your views about what a great thing it is. The fact that you are surprised that you are running into so much objection to your POV indicates your cluelessness.
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    infighting and endless bitter bickering is the easiest, fastest method to obtain EXACTLY what you want.

    can't we all just get along?

    probably not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    Agreed. I'm finding that more and more often, my 29" hardtail is more fun to ride on the newer trails since they are designed to take away the technical aspects of mountain biking.

    I am finding that I have to search further and further to find trails worthy of needing my modern bike. Thankfully they're still out there and haven't been given the "flow" treatment yet.
    My CX bike's skinny tires and shitty brakes are perfect for a lot of the trails in NM.

    Of course, I had to spend a bunch of money on a mountain bike to figure that out but I'm having fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    infighting and endless bitter bickering is the easiest, fastest method to obtain EXACTLY what you want.

    can't we all just get along?

    probably not...
    Most of us do, most of the time, despite the impression you may sometimes get from the interwebs. But it doesn't mean we have to agree on everything, and it would be unrealistic to expect that. Especially when it comes to people espousing things that, by the number of people voicing their opposition in this and the 'Moore' thread, a clear majority of people disagree with. Sometimes it's also important to speak up.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Most of us do, most of the time, despite the impression you may sometimes get from the interwebs. But it doesn't mean we have to agree on everything, and it would be unrealistic to expect that. Especially when it comes to people espousing things that, by the number of people voicing their opposition in this and the 'Moore' thread, a clear majority of people disagree with. Sometimes it's also important to speak up.
    my comment was meant to be an attempt at humor...but much humor contains a grain of truth...

    i guess all this is why the forum is named "passion"...

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    A good example of one of our MA trail systems where the main riding line is "A" but there was plenty of thought put into "B" lines too. This sort of set up works great if you've got a variety of riding styles and skill levels.

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    As a board member of the Big Bear Trails Foundation, we regularly talk about the best way to built trails or reroute the existing trails( the same trails we worked hard to get in the first place)
    Usually it seems that everyone, the local trail users and builders are thinking A line first and a B line secondary. While I like the technical lines, I still insist on having an easier line built first and a more technical line built after. I also realize that not everyone has a bike capable of riding such lines. I sometimes ride my cross bike on these trails. The reason is, where we ride, the trails are for everyone, and not everyone can ride the technical lines, but everyone can ride the non- technical lines( may not be as fun or challenging though). Also, our trails are made for every user group i.e.; hikers and equestrians. We also have a lift assisted bike park adjacent to a lot of the USFS trails.
    Whenever we can have both an A and B line, I believe it makes all the users happy and that's the direction that I believe all trail designers should be thinking in most cases and something I hold firm when we do go out and layout the trails.
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    Some interesting assumptions by the OP. Ever pedaled in New England or MA? Lots of rock, more often the terrain and topography dictate the trail level, we work with what we have. And our 5 %? More like 30 %. Never heard of someone adding an A line, it's always making a B line. And if you are dumbing down the trail, you are not " improving "it. Lots of options for trails out here, pick your skill level. We work mostly with state, local and conservation areas, not so much federal lands here in MA. Many time we have a free (of sorts) hand to do trail work. Some times there is a review with the pins flags out, sometimes it is just a walk though with some flagging tape. Other times just some lines on a map. Great that our chapter has a long term relationship with many of the land managers that there is some trust and comfort level to just " go build a trail" Usually with the mindset that it is a multi use trails, sometimes horses too. Occasionally there is B line put in, maybe for a steep roller or such. We build what we like, within the confines of what is " allowed" make it look nice, flow well and properly constructed. And always fun. YRMV.

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    Boris, I really enjoy your personal attacks on me, It really shows your maturity level. I've stayed on topic in this thread and the Moore thread yet in both threads you have attacked me personally with your childish ways because you disagree with my take on the topic. Stalking my profile is nothing more than childish and creepy.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailSanitizer View Post
    I agree with the original poster. It's nice to have easier lines as well as advanced lines, it makes riding fun for all users.

    Thank you for expressing that Switchblade
    Sock puppet account obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailSanitizer View Post
    no... my name is Mike Williams and I live in the LA area California... ntmu bud...
    How did you know my name was Bud, Bud?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  48. #48
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    IMO, the A line/B line thing is totally dictated by terrane and locale. It won't work in all places. We can argue until the cows come home on style and implementation but what's of a bigger concern to me is keeping singletrack single.

    For example, in the OP's turf (Sedona) the only trails that are less than 3 feet wide are those that are hanging on a cliff side like the HiLine climb or Hangover or wherever the tread is benchcut. Without exception. The intermediate trails that are not bench cut are 8 or more feet wide and you could ride an ATV on them (for example, Slim Shady, Lllama, Baldwin, Templeton and on and on. Even expert riders will ride around an easy ledge while climbing or around a rock or root when it would be easy to just go over with just a tad more effort.

    When it comes to B lines I guess I'm not that picky. But the braiding, cheater lines, and resultant trail widening kill me. Not sure what the answer is.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Some interesting assumptions by the OP. Ever pedaled in New England or MA? Lots of rock, more often the terrain and topography dictate the trail level, we work with what we have. And our 5 %? More like 30 %. Never heard of someone adding an A line, it's always making a B line. And if you are dumbing down the trail, you are not " improving "it. Lots of options for trails out here, pick your skill level..
    That describes my situation pretty well too. The natural geology kind of dictates what kind of trail it's going to be. Also, it seems odd that a land manager (in OP's case) is allowing "more technical/challenging" lines to be built -- that flies in the face of every land-manager decision I've ever been privy to. It's usually been exactly the opposite -- absolutely NO challenging features are to be built, especially jumps.

    A question I have regarding A and B lines, and this goes to anyone, is -- Just what exactly does a trail look like that has both "A" and "B" lines? I think that some consensus there would be helpful in this thread. Most of our trails are definitely a SINGLEtrack, but some of them are wide; 3-4 feet in some cases. In my experience, trails that are 3-4' wide have plenty of wiggle room for most riders in most cases. I've always thought of "a line" as an invisible route that the rider sees before reaching a section of trail. Most of the time, in my experience, trails all offer more than one possible line choice -- all within the same trail; unless they are really narrow singletrack by nature.

    I guess when I hear people talking about "A" and "B" lines, I visualize an actual braid off the trail, either to go around something challenging or to hit something more challenging. I'm definitely against that, because it's difficult to control and the more it's allowed, the more it will happen.

    Again, I will say that I find it unlikely that most land managers would be on board with adding challenging features to an existing mellower trail. That's just not the way it works. If I'm wrong, please tell me where I can go to work on such trails, or better yet, how I can get my local land managers to go for such a thing.

    In a nutshell, if a trail is easy, keep it easy. Add a jump or two if it's unobtrusive to the original trail and non-mandatory. If a trail is difficult, keep it difficult. There are riders out there that need both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    That describes my situation pretty well too. The natural geology kind of dictates what kind of trail it's going to be. Also, it seems odd that a land manager (in OP's case) is allowing "more technical/challenging" lines to be built -- that flies in the face of every land-manager decision I've ever been privy to. It's usually been exactly the opposite -- absolutely NO challenging features are to be built, especially jumps.

    A question I have regarding A and B lines, and this goes to anyone, is -- Just what exactly does a trail look like that has both "A" and "B" lines? I think that some consensus there would be helpful in this thread. Most of our trails are definitely a SINGLEtrack, but some of them are wide; 3-4 feet in some cases. In my experience, trails that are 3-4' wide have plenty of wiggle room for most riders in most cases. I've always thought of "a line" as an invisible route that the rider sees before reaching a section of trail. Most of the time, in my experience, trails all offer more than one possible line choice -- all within the same trail; unless they are really narrow singletrack by nature.

    I guess when I hear people talking about "A" and "B" lines, I visualize an actual braid off the trail, either to go around something challenging or to hit something more challenging. I'm definitely against that, because it's difficult to control and the more it's allowed, the more it will happen.

    Again, I will say that I find it unlikely that most land managers would be on board with adding challenging features to an existing mellower trail. That's just not the way it works. If I'm wrong, please tell me where I can go to work on such trails, or better yet, how I can get my local land managers to go for such a thing.

    In a nutshell, if a trail is easy, keep it easy. Add a jump or two if it's unobtrusive to the original trail and non-mandatory. If a trail is difficult, keep it difficult. There are riders out there that need both.
    This is what I picture he's talking about. All the jumps are new dedicated B-Lines.

    https://youtu.be/EsWudeOZ4tA

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  51. #51
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    Dude calls out someone for posting a lot.

    Then posts 5 in a row.

    Keep the trails challenging - it's MOUNTAIN biking. Learn to ride them, or not - and get a gravel or road bike and call it good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    A question I have regarding A and B lines, and this goes to anyone, is -- Just what exactly does a trail look like that has both "A" and "B" lines?
    Check the vid I posted - the guys riding seem to mainly take the "A" lines, but you'll see the "B" options pretty clearly. This works great at a number of places I know, but I also know plenty of places where 'the line is the line' and that can work fine too, particularly in places known for being technical.

    Somebody earlier mentioned 8' wide trails; assuming that's tread width, I would consider that more of a road than a trail. IMO, "singletrack" tops out somewhere around 3' wide.
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    I'm lucky to have options in my area (CT) but I'm willing to drive a bit more for something totally new every now and then. There's 8-10 great single track places to ride within 45 minutes of me and I can get lift serviced downhill stuff 2-3 hrs away (NH, Maine, VT, NY).

    Most of the local single track has plenty of technical sections to challenge but there are some that are considered more mellow. A mellow trail can be fun and challenging if you ride it fast enough, do a night ride, winter ride, etc. Around here when fresh loops are created they are totally new versus changing the existing trail. The newer trails that show up use natural features vs lots of digging and ramp building.

    I fall into the camp that says 'Choose the trails that scratch your itch vs trying to please everyone by changing the trail into something different'
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    ^^^ What he said.

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    slap that is a great video of how A lines and B Lines can coexist. I assume the trail was built to be mostly ridden by the 5%’er Group, but they were willing to make B Lines or let lesser skilled riders make B Lines to also allow them to enjoy the trail.

    It just seems that A Line (5%’ers) are usually the ones complaining about lesser skilled riders adding lesser skilled lines. You never hear the 95%’ers complain about the 5%’Red adding a challenging feature to the lesser skilled trail.

    I think the 95%’ers are more tolerant of challenging sections being added then 5%’ers are of the lesser skilled riders adding lesser skill features. I personally don’t believe a well thought out and built optional line is causing significant impact to the environment. The joy from the optional line is highly significant.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Check the vid I posted - the guys riding seem to mainly take the "A" lines, but you'll see the "B" options pretty clearly. This works great at a number of places I know, but I also know plenty of places where 'the line is the line' and that can work fine too, particularly in places known for being technical.

    Somebody earlier mentioned 8' wide trails; assuming that's tread width, I would consider that more of a road than a trail. IMO, "singletrack" tops out somewhere around 3' wide.
    He wasn't kidding. Quite a number of the busier/easier trails in Sedona are wide enough to drive a truck down. They're not singletrack now, for sure. Not sure if they were ever supposed to be...I've only been there once.

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    Was out this morning, walking a trail that is part of an upcoming race course. Was joined by trail steward in charge of preparing the trail for the race. We and others have been volunteering for over a month, clearing loose rock, cutting back brush, grooming, etc.

    He was upset over what he saw this morning. A set of tire tracks from a Polaris, on top of a half mile section of the trail that had been routed on top of a former ATV track, years ago. Even though it is now closed to motorized use, it is wide enough to sneak an ATV out on, until you get to where the trail turns back onto narrow single track. I told him I had been out scouting the trail the week before and met with three hunters, who saw the man driving the Polaris. Turns out it was the land manager, in his ranger uniform, driving along, dislodging large rocks off the edges of the trail and onto the center of the trail.

    Then we got to a choke point, where he wondered how the Polaris could have gotten past it. I told him it couldn't have. He looked puzzled. I pointed to the well placed 400 pound boulder in the center of the trail, between a huge rock slab and another boulder that was twice as large. The newly placed 400 pound boulder would stop all future incursions by ATV's of almost all sizes. I told him the work was done the day before by two riders who will remain anonymous. I asked if he was upset about the work that was done without permission. He said he approved of it because it will stop ATV's from tearing up the trail. He added that he planned to have a talk with the land manager about inspecting the trail by way of driving his Polaris on it.

    I also told him about a reroute needed on a section of the trail. He agreed that the existing trail was terribly designed in that section but that there was nothing that could be done without the land manager getting involved. I smiled and asked if he knew who the Wolf is.


    I'm Mr. Wolf, I solve problems



    Switchblade and I can't be the only ones here that know about Mr. Wolf and solving trail problems. Most of us ride trails that were not built by land managers, not built with knowledge of the land managers, not built by paid trail crews. They were built by intrepid riders seeking opportunities to explore.

    Get it straight, buster. I'm not here to say please. I'm here to tell you what to do...If I'm curt with you, it's because time is a factor. I think fast, I talk fast, and I need you guys to act fast if you want to get out of this. So, pretty please, with sugar on top, build the a-lines and the b-lines.

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    Hahahahaha.😂

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    Quote Originally Posted by cookiemonster View Post
    i guess when i hear people talking about "a" and "b" lines, i visualize an actual braid off the trail, either to go around something challenging or to hit something more challenging. I'm definitely against that, because it's difficult to control and the more it's allowed, the more it will happen.
    bingo^^^^^^

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    I have a hard time calling a 3 foot wide trail, "singletrack". 3 foot wide is track and a half. We create/route our trail here utilizing the natural terrain features and fall lines at hand. Low impact.

    This is what we call singletrack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hacksawreynolds View Post
    bingo^^^^^^
    b-7


    And I also agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    bingo^^^^^^
    It also depends on where it's being built in my opinion. If it is purpose built with bikes being the primary and intended users and the people running the show are OK with it then it isn't a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Good gawd reading about A and B lines makes me want to throw up in my mouth about as much as seeing the word "flow" when describing MTB trails.

    How bout this for a concept. One line. Leave or build an advanced trail as an advanced trail. One trail, one line, no alternate braids to bypass trail sections. Then leave or build easier trails for lesser skilled riders as intermediate or beginner trails. Doing it this way will be much simpler all the way around in the planning and execution. And less impactful on the environment. If one finds themselves come upon a section of trail that they don't feel comfortable riding then...... wait for it......yup get off and walk that section until you are skilled enough to ride it.

    This isn't hard people.
    Great idea if you have plenty land you are allowed to build trails on. But if you have limited land, it often makes more sense to have good hard trials with bypasses on the most difficult options to allow for a more varied ridership so there is enough presence to be taken seriously. Not having enough presence to be taken seriously could see trails get re-purposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    slap that is a great video of how A lines and B Lines can coexist. I assume the trail was built to be mostly ridden by the 5%’er Group, but they were willing to make B Lines or let lesser skilled riders make B Lines to also allow them to enjoy the trail.

    It just seems that A Line (5%’ers) are usually the ones complaining about lesser skilled riders adding lesser skilled lines. You never hear the 95%’ers complain about the 5%’Red adding a challenging feature to the lesser skilled trail.

    I think the 95%’ers are more tolerant of challenging sections being added then 5%’ers are of the lesser skilled riders adding lesser skill features. I personally don’t believe a well thought out and built optional line is causing significant impact to the environment. The joy from the optional line is highly significant.
    As I've mentioned previously elsewhere, rather than a 95:5 ratio around here, it's more like a 25:50:25 breakdown around here when it comes to technical aptitude. The geography drives it - you simply can't ride in New England without getting comfortable with a fair amount of tech, so just about anyone that sticks with the sport past the beginner stage gains skill pretty quickly.

    Riders around here also seem to tend to cross over a lot as far as different styles of riding; I know very few XC riders that haven't ridden some chairlifts and likewise very few DH people that don't also pedal their bikes on trails very regularly. Many of our best and most prolific XC trail builders put in quite a few lift, DJ and even skatepark or MUNI days. I think that sort of alternating experience really helps when it comes to building interesting trails and features that actually work.

    Those particular trails were definitely aimed at filling a 'freeride'ish niche that is tough to get away with at your standard public system. The original system out there was cut mainly on dirt bikes bitd. There used to be jeeps and crawlers out there is certain areas, as well as ATVs. It became popular with what you'd probably refer to as the 5% of MTBrs probably 20-25 years ago because of all the awesome glacial granite. The land was up for development, and NEMBA got involved with helping protect it by taking a collection from members and actually raising enough money to by ~50 acres, so when it came time to build trails, ignoring the "95%" was not an option, nor was losing the nature of the place which was made it special enough to buy in the first place.

    Check it:
    New England Mountain Bike Association buys open space for trails in Milford, Massachusetts


    Another video of the same place with a bunch of kids on mid level bikes and tennis shoes The definitely do some decent riding, and some stuff I wouldn't do anymore, but I don't think I'd classify them as 5%ers buy any means.


    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Great idea if you have plenty land you are allowed to build trails on. But if you have limited land, it often makes more sense to have good hard trials with bypasses on the most difficult options to allow for a more varied ridership so there is enough presence to be taken seriously. Not having enough presence to be taken seriously could see trails get re-purposed.
    To me it makes more sense to have the optional lines, outside of dedicated gravity areas, no matter what. It helps allow riders of all skill levels to ride and have fun. It's also beneficial for teaching moments as others can ride with you and watch things being hit they are working up to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Great idea if you have plenty land you are allowed to build trails on. But if you have limited land, it often makes more sense to have good hard trials with bypasses on the most difficult options to allow for a more varied ridership so there is enough presence to be taken seriously. Not having enough presence to be taken seriously could see trails get re-purposed.
    We come from VERY different schools of thought on this topic. And that's ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    It also depends on where it's being built in my opinion. If it is purpose built with bikes being the primary and intended users and the people running the show are OK with it then it isn't a problem.

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    Simply put, If riders see it at one spot, even if it's kosher, then their gonna think it's ok to aid in the "evolution" of new braids and bypasses everywhere.

    No Bueno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Simply put, If riders see it at one spot, even if it's kosher, then their gonna think it's ok to aid in the "evolution" of new braids and bypasses everywhere.

    No Bueno.
    Simply put, that's a slippery slope fallacy and as such, is not a valid reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Simply put, that's a slippery slope fallacy and as such, is not a valid reason.

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    We will just have to disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    We will just have to disagree.
    There's nothing to disagree about. You've simply made a fallacy, ie no valid point, an argument not based in facts, you've provided nothing to agree or disagree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    There's nothing to disagree about. You've simply made a fallacy, ie no valid point, an argument not based in facts, you've provided nothing to agree or disagree with.

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    If you don't understand my point then it is obviously beyond your scope. And I could really care less whether you feel that it's valid or not. It is what it is. Trail braids/alternate lines are something I take issue with for more than one reason. They set a precedent. A very negative precedent for many areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    If you don't understand my point then it is obviously beyond your scope.
    I get the point you are attempting to make, you don't like it. However, as you are providing an argument based on a fallacy to further the point, you are not making a logical, rational argument; so, you are providing nothing that can be agreed or disagreed with.

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    Our hardest trails get new log jumps, new fallen tree features, lost features, mudslide line changes added every year and I think it is fantastic. The main trail has followed the same A fall line for over 25 years, but the features that materialize via nature or trail repair are always optional and one can take them or bypass em. I have never heard a complaint. This is in forest and a single track so it is not so much braiding but alternate lines. The forest takes back unused sections each winter as well as many of the features over time. Check out one of our local pros riding in our forest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKxKu_bxF6U

    Braiding would of suck if it made the area look scarred and trashed like in a sandstone formation (Sedona) or very low vegetation (So Cal) so that terrain does make a difference for what is ok.

    Ride more, bitch less and don't turn this into some elitist self aggrandizing bro sport. We want more riders that will drive more trails ---keeping people out with attitude only hurts in the long run.

  74. #74
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    Around here, we generally have "A" trails and "B" trails. If you build an easy trail, without a filtered entrance, then give someone the option to take a big risk later on a stunt that is a complete anomaly on an easy trail, chances are good that the better riders are not even on that trail, and some noob is going to fall off of something. That's maybe just here, but I doubt it.

    The terrain here was flattened by a glacier 1000s of years ago. Most injuries are due to speed, not high-risk features. Man-made stuff is rare here, but central Ohio has some bigger stuff. The easy lines are designed to impart a time penalty in a race format, but also serve as bypasses if you aren't feeling your mojo. Often times they are well-separated, but few land managers tolerate that much hacking of the countryside, so more often you just walk the tricky stuff if you think it's over your head.

    -F

    PS - Should this thread be in Trailbuilding and Advocacy?
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

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    https://youtu.be/Mc_4Fr67cqI

    Here are some trails that have one line. I think they are difficult. I am curious what the OP thinks of them. I realize the video often minimizes features, but these really aren't big features. They're just big enough to catch your pedal or derailleur. There are a few climbs, though.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I get the point you are attempting to make, you don't like it. However, as you are providing an argument based on a fallacy to further the point, you are not making a logical, rational argument; so, you are providing nothing that can be agreed or disagreed with.

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    Fallacy? Care to elaborate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Fallacy? Care to elaborate?
    We've been over this already and I told you the type of fallacy you employed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    https://youtu.be/Mc_4Fr67cqI

    Here are some trails that have one line. I think they are difficult. I am curious what the OP thinks of them. I realize the video often minimizes features, but these really aren't big features. They're just big enough to catch your pedal or derailleur. There are a few climbs, though.

    -F
    PA is an amazing state to ride. That trail is very similar to many trails that I've ridden many times in Western PA and WV. One trail one line. Ride it or walk it if you can't.

    A lot of the riding here in Maine by me is very similar. Lots of rock, tight steep turns, roots, fall line riding. All good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    We've been over this already and I told you the type of fallacy you employed.

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    Not fallacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Not fallacy.
    It's a slippery slope, that is a fallacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Simply put, If riders see it at one spot, even if it's kosher, then their gonna think it's ok to aid in the "evolution" of new braids and bypasses everywhere.

    No Bueno.
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Simply put, that's a slippery slope fallacy and as such, is not a valid reason.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Around here it is not fallacy. If trail stewards leave a fallen tree and someone creates a ride-around, it takes a ton of work to fix it. The saw crew is usually out next day, just because it's less work than if they wait.
    There is a tree gap on an advanced trail here. The gap is plenty wide for handlebars, but the twisted, rooty stumps make it a little tricky. Someone attempted to build a bypass. It was obstructed by stewards almost the very next day and all stewards were notified to look for similar instances. If it had been allowed to remain, that rider would have ripped out all the trees at each obstacle to facilitate more bypasses. Still don't know who it was, but they have stopped ripping out trees.
    It would go on indefinitely if not nipped in the bud. It's like letting someone smoke in your house. If you're cool with it, then let them. If not, you have to communicate your expectations (call them rules if you like).

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    Around here it is not fallacy. If trail stewards leave a fallen tree and someone creates a ride-around, it takes a ton of work to fix it. The saw crew is usually out next day, just because it's less work than if they wait.
    There is a tree gap on an advanced trail here. The gap is plenty wide for handlebars, but the twisted, rooty stumps make it a little tricky. Someone attempted to build a bypass. It was obstructed by stewards almost the very next day and all stewards were notified to look for similar instances. If it had been allowed to remain, that rider would have ripped out all the trees at each obstacle to facilitate more bypasses. Still don't know who it was, but they have stopped ripping out trees.
    It would go on indefinitely if not nipped in the bud. It's like letting someone smoke in your house. If you're cool with it, then let them. If not, you have to communicate your expectations (call them rules if you like).

    -F
    That's not what he is arguing. He's saying that if a trail is built with optional but officially mandated features that somehow riders are going to take that to mean they can just go add or subtract whatever they want. What you describe is rogue work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    Around here it is not fallacy. If trail stewards leave a fallen tree and someone creates a ride-around, it takes a ton of work to fix it. The saw crew is usually out next day, just because it's less work than if they wait.
    There is a tree gap on an advanced trail here. The gap is plenty wide for handlebars, but the twisted, rooty stumps make it a little tricky. Someone attempted to build a bypass. It was obstructed by stewards almost the very next day and all stewards were notified to look for similar instances. If it had been allowed to remain, that rider would have ripped out all the trees at each obstacle to facilitate more bypasses. Still don't know who it was, but they have stopped ripping out trees.
    It would go on indefinitely if not nipped in the bud. It's like letting someone smoke in your house. If you're cool with it, then let them. If not, you have to communicate your expectations (call them rules if you like).

    -F
    Yup, we deal with a fair bit of that around here. And I can't tell you how many times I've had to stop while doing trail work to educate riders to NOT RIDE AROUND the very tree that I was about to remove from the trail. Get off of your bike (oh the horror!) and walk over the tree until I remove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's not what he is arguing. He's saying that if a trail is built with optional but officially mandated features that somehow riders are going to take that to mean they can just go add or subtract whatever they want. What you describe is rogue work.

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    No, not at that particular area you mentioned where approved A and B lines are present. What you failed to understand is that riders that visit places like you describe may go back to where they live or other places with no alternate lines and feel like it's cool to make their own alternate routes around obstacles either just by riding or with rogue trail work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    No, not at that particular area you mentioned where approved A and B lines are present. What you failed to understand is that riders that visit places like you describe may go back to where they live or other places with no alternate lines and feel like it's cool to make their own alternate routes around obstacles either just by riding or with rogue trail work.
    And that is the very definition a slippery slope fallacy, "if this happens it 'may' lead to this".

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Simply put, If riders see it at one spot, even if it's kosher, then their gonna think it's ok to aid in the "evolution" of new braids and bypasses everywhere.

    No Bueno.
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's not what he is arguing. He's saying that if a trail is built with optional but officially mandated features that somehow riders are going to take that to mean they can just go add or subtract whatever they want. What you describe is rogue work.

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    I wasn't going to split that hair. It seems braids/rougue lines really are encouraged in a way by existing braids/rougue lines. I've seen it done under the guise of legit trail work by unsanctioned "helpers".
    The expert section at Moraine in PA does have A/B lines, but the difference is usually trading a steep roll-in for a low-speed manual drop. Both require upper-level skilz, plus there's almost no room to route elsewhere, so further braiding or "C" lines are nearly impossible. In that specific case it works OK, but generally I think it should be avoided.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    I wasn't going to split that hair. It seems braids/rougue lines really are encouraged in a way by existing braids/rougue lines. I've seen it done under the guise of legit trail work by unsactioned "helpers".
    The expert section at Moraine in PA does have A/B lines, but the difference is usually trading a steep roll-in for a low-speed manual drop. Both require upper-level skilz, plus there's almost no room to route elsewhere, so further braiding or "C" lines are nearly impossible. In that specific case it works OK, but generally I think it should be avoided.

    -F
    That is an important hair to split though.

    The key part is to make it obvious it isn't a braid/rogue line. Furthermore, if officially sanctioned and well constructed, it actually discourages that type of behavior for a couple of reasons.

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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That is an important hair to split though.

    The key part is to make it obvious it isn't a braid/rogue line. Furthermore, if officially sanctioned and well constructed, it actually discourages that type of behavior for a couple of reasons.

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    This I agree with, but in my mind, the "correct" implementation is to have 2 distinct trail sections - I mean completely separated and, ideally, not even in view of the other, such that you can't switch lines halfway through. Signage helps.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    This I agree with, but in my mind, the "correct" implementation is to have 2 distinct trail sections - I mean completely separated and, ideally, not even in view of the other, such that you can't switch lines halfway through. Signage helps.

    -F
    With the exception of random kickers that's pretty much how ours are constructed. Some of them can be gapped into/out of but it's a deliberate huck. Very rarely is it just a random widening it's almost always two distinct lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    And that is the very definition a slippery slope fallacy, "if this happens it 'may' lead to this".

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    Except it does happen.

    Let's simplify things a little by stating that the more optional lines exist, the more optional lines are created. I have ridden places where so many options exist that you can't tell what the main line is.

    I spent more time in Sedona scouting lines than I have had to anywhere else. Some areas have at least half a dozen obvious lines that are only subtly different from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Except it does happen.

    Let's simplify things a little by stating that the more optional lines exist, the more optional lines are created. I have ridden places where so many options exist that you can't tell what the main line is.

    I spent more time in Sedona scouting lines than I have had to anywhere else. Some areas have at least half a dozen obvious lines that are only subtly different from each other.

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    Not necessarily.

    In your anecdotal example were there officially mandated optional lines to start with or were they "rogue"? If it all started as rogue it is an apples to oranges comparison.

    There's also the question of is the ability to select multiple lines a feature of the official build. That is something that is built for intentionally as well at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    And that is the very definition a slippery slope fallacy, "if this happens it 'may' lead to this".

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    It IS happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Not necessarily.

    In your anecdotal example were there officially mandated optional lines to start with or were they "rogue"? If it all started as rogue it is an apples to oranges comparison.

    There's also the question of is the ability to select multiple lines a feature of the official build. That is something that is built for intentionally as well at times.

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    Like I said, I have ridden a number of places over the years where it is impossible to tell.

    The places I have seen it done well, the advanced lines are well separated from the eaiser stuff, to the point that it feels like the advanced stuff is actually on a separate trail. For all intents, it is a separate trail. But it nips alt lines pretty well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    It IS happening.
    No, rogue braiding is happening. Braiding directly attributed to a different location having optional lines has not been proven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Like I said, I have ridden a number of places over the years where it is impossible to tell.

    The places I have seen it done well, the advanced lines are well separated from the eaiser stuff, to the point that it feels like the advanced stuff is actually on a separate trail. For all intents, it is a separate trail. But it nips alt lines pretty well.

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    That's what is being discussed here. Well built, officially sanctioned trail that leaves both lines open making the likelihood of rogue lines being built less likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    No it doesn't.
    Yes, it does. I live in an area that does it and executes it well, it has here. Anecdotal evidence in this thread also states that when well designed it does as well.

    You keep making statements with no factual backing and purely arguing from an emotional bias. That's an unconvincing tactic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's what is being discussed here. Well built, officially sanctioned trail that leaves both lines open making the likelihood of rogue lines being built less likely.

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    I do not get the feeling that OP was making much of a distinction in quality the way I am. I had a blast in Sedona, but the braiding and widened trail there is ridiculous and obscene in quite a few places. I doubt that even more alt lines are needed on that trail system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, rogue braiding is happening. Braiding directly attributed to a different location having optional lines has not been proven.

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    YES, rogue braiding IS happening. And is directly attributed to different locations having optional lines. I spend enough time riding, working on trails and talking with riders and hearing reports and input to know well what is going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I do not get the feeling that OP was making much of a distinction in quality the way I am. I had a blast in Sedona, but the braiding and widened trail there is ridiculous and obscene in quite a few places. I doubt that even more alt lines are needed on that trail system.

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    He was asking for it to be officially sanctioned by the land manager. To me that's on that individual and the builder. If both allow a bad build to take place then that will probably be par for the course everywhere else in the system. I know that is asking a lot in many scenarios but it's just how I see it.

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