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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    It is the only example I know of where a large land area has no funding or land managers slowing down the PROCESS.
    Funny thing is, we've got countless systems like that in the northeast.
    The situation that seems standard in your area is extremely rare around here.
    As usual, local conditions vary wildly. Sounds like you would love being a builder around here - we've got an incredible amount of freedom.
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  2. #402
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    Boys will be boys 😉. The East should actually be called "The wild East".

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Funny thing is, we've got countless systems like that in the northeast.
    The situation that seems standard in your area is extremely rare around here.
    As usual, local conditions vary wildly. Sounds like you would love being a builder around here - we've got an incredible amount of freedom.
    Sounds good to me. Who owns the land?

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Sounds good to me. Who owns the land?
    All depends - we simply don't have the vast tracts of tightly managed, contiguous open spaces that you guys out west do. It's a patchwork of smaller chunks of private land as well as state and town forests and parks. Granted, you don't get the huge networks and long, epic single trails like what you are probably more familiar with, but you do end up with a huge variety of smaller networks, many of which can be strung together to your hearts' content with some creativity and a little road-work.

    I can think of many trails that were (and currently are) being built on little more than a handshake, or even a wink and a nod. Probably part of why we have so dedicated builders around; lots of opportunities to create on your own terms with limited oversight. I think this also plays into the mindset of respecting the vision of trailbuilders and not messing with others' creations. I build what I build in my little neck of the woods, and I don't tend to go to someone elses' sandbox and start changing things around. Simply bad etiquette.
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  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Sounds good to me. Who owns the land?
    Do you really care?

    You apparently build trails where you aren't authorized to.

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  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Do you really care?

    You apparently build trails where you aren't authorized to.

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    Silent if the mountain bike community hadn’t built the trail system where I ride we wouldn’t have the World Class system of trails that bring people from all over the world.

    Trails are good for the community and they certainly have very little impact to the environment. To pretend otherwise is total nonsense. Where I live we have a tremendous amount of steep cliff areas that are constantly eroding huge amounts of soil every time it rains.

    The land manager use to complain about the impact from mountain bike trails. When I asked them if it was significant impact they would stare at me and say all impact is bad. When I asked them how it compared to our steep cliff areas they knew the gig was up.

    I believe well built multi purpose trails are good. You may believe that land manager crews are the only ones qualified to build a fun trail. I have lived long enough to know that isn’t always true where I ride.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Silent if the mountain bike community hadn’t built the trail system where I ride we wouldn’t have the World Class system of trails that bring people from all over the world.

    Trails are good for the community and they certainly have very little impact to the environment. To pretend otherwise is total nonsense. Where I live we have a tremendous amount of steep cliff areas that are constantly eroding huge amounts of soil every time it rains.

    The land manager use to complain about the impact from mountain bike trails. When I asked them if it was significant impact they would stare at me and say all impact is bad. When I asked them how it compared to our steep cliff areas they knew the gig was up.

    I believe well built multi purpose trails are good. You may believe that land manager crews are the only ones qualified to build a fun trail. I have lived long enough to know that isn’t always true where I ride.
    Did I say anything about environmental impact? No, you threw in that red herring all on your own.

    It baffles me that you are so entitled that you'll alter a trail that you have nothing to do with, besides being an end user. That does not go over well, anywhere.

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  8. #408
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    Silent that is total malarkey. Environmental impact is normally a discussion point the land manager uses when a user created trail turns up being popular and marketed to the world wide mountain bike community.

    I have been to numerous meetings that it is one of a number of talking points. Archeology, viewsheds, invasive species and birds are several others.

    My major point was without user created trails the area I ride in would not be labeled World CIass. Is your area considered World Class, if not why not?

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I don't tend to go to someone elses' sandbox and start changing things around. Simply bad etiquette.
    Yep, bad etiquette... And potentially criminal as well.

    Switch (Jon Finch), in spite of yourself you have fueled a good discussion of the benefit of well thought-out A & B lines in approved trail construction and maintenance. There's a lot of support out there for this approach. Better quit while you're ahead because your true colors are showing.

    In the closed thread on Moore Fun, you stated pretty clearly that you gave yourself permission to "improve" any trail, anytime regardless of the original purpose of the trail and without the permission of the land manager, and against the wishes of the local community. Very little support out there for that. You act like a law unto yourself and you've already been prosecuted for such behavior. Can another prosecution be far off. What's the penalty for repeat offenses? That former friend of yours from Cali who posted in another thread that you were a renegade who "could not be controlled" had it right.

    I think your real motivation is thumbing your nose at the system and trying to make government land managers look stupid. In a politically charged place like Sedona, you could be doing more harm than good for the mtb community.

    I finally decided who you remind me of. You're the Cliven Bundy of trail building. I suspect you'll take that as a compliment.
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  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Yep, bad etiquette... And potentially criminal as well.

    Switch (Jon Finch), in spite of yourself you have fueled a good discussion of the benefit of well thought-out A & B lines in approved trail construction and maintenance. There's a lot of support out there for this approach. Better quit while you're ahead because your true colors are showing.

    In the closed thread on Moore Fun, you stated pretty clearly that you gave yourself permission to "improve" any trail, anytime regardless of the original purpose of the trail and without the permission of the land manager, and against the wishes of the local community. Very little support out there for that. You act like a law unto yourself and you've already been prosecuted for such behavior. Can another prosecution be far off. What's the penalty for repeat offenses? That former friend of yours from Cali who posted in another thread that you were a renegade who "could not be controlled" had it right.

    I think your real motivation is thumbing your nose at the system and trying to make government land managers look stupid. In a politically charged place like Sedona, you could be doing more harm than good for the mtb community.

    I finally decided who you remind me of. You're the Cliven Bundy of trail building. I suspect you'll take that as a compliment.
    velo are you volunteering to help the USFS build the new trail in VOC? I have asked you to contribute and have yet to see any trail work being done by you.

    Let me ask you the same question I asked Silent, would Sedona be considered a World Class destination if all the current popular user created trails were slashed and no mountain biking were allowed on them? How many times were the Hog trails decommissioned before the USFS decided they were an exceptional trail concept?

    Why was Slim Shady reopened after two days of extreme slashing by 23 aggressive trail slashers? Why was the very well thought out reroute on the Dawa trail slashed then one year later reopened. Why was the Lizardhead trail slashed and three months later reopened to be a major connector to the extremely popular Dry Creek Vista trailhead. Why was the Easy Breezy Trail slashed then reopened when it was decided the trail concept was worthy? Why was the worthy reroute on Cockscomb slashed then six months later the slashed was removed and the original poorly routed section was slashed?

    What really amazes me is that the USFS has never praised the mountain bike community for developing popular well thought out trails that have saved hunderds of thousands of dollars. The new Western Gateway Project is adopting eight miles of existing user created trails.

    Seems to me you need to get your facts straight. Your Fake News doesn’t hold up very well.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    velo are you volunteering to help the USFS build the new trail in VOC? I have asked you to contribute and have yet to see any trail work being done by you.

    Let me ask you the same question I asked Silent, would Sedona be considered a World Class destination if all the current popular user created trails were slashed and no mountain biking were allowed on them? How many times were the Hog trails decommissioned before the USFS decided they were an exceptional trail concept?

    Why was Slim Shady reopened after two days of extreme slashing by 23 aggressive trail slashers? Why was the very well thought out reroute on the Dawa trail slashed then one year later reopened. Why was the Lizardhead trail slashed and three months later reopened to be a major connector to the extremely popular Dry Creek Vista trailhead. Why was the Easy Breezy Trail slashed then reopened when it was decided the trail concept was worthy? Why was the worthy reroute on Cockscomb slashed then six months later the slashed was removed and the original poorly routed section was slashed?

    What really amazes me is that the USFS has never praised the mountain bike community for developing popular well thought out trails that have saved hunderds of thousands of dollars. The new Western Gateway Project is adopting eight miles of existing user created trails.

    Seems to me you need to get your facts straight. Your Fake News doesn’t hold up very well.
    Every actual claim I made about you being a self-righteous, uncontrollable, law unto yourself is factual matter of record. You're proud of that. Admit it.

    I can't prove that you're causing more harm than good in Sedona, but I do know that land managers don't take kindly to the freewheeling cowboy ethos you are so proud of. You have one obsessive agenda; they have multiple responsibilities and multiple resource values to manage. Are you taking credit for all the trails you mentioned?

    velo are you volunteering to help the USFS build the new trail in VOC? I have asked you to contribute and have yet to see any trail work being done by you.

    Omniscient are you? You may be the "self appointed ambassador to Sedona" (blah, blah, blah) but I don't report to you.

    Let's stick to approved A&B lines from now on, eh?
    Veni vidi velo!

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    velo are you volunteering to help the USFS build the new trail in VOC? I have asked you to contribute and have yet to see any trail work being done by you.
    ...excessive meaningless chest thumping...

    Seems to me you need to get your facts straight. Your Fake News doesn’t hold up very well.
    How about staying on topic? Maybe you should start another thread. I suggest a title of “it’s all about me” or “these are my contributions” as it seems that’s all you want to talk about.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Every actual claim I made about you being a self-righteous, uncontrollable, law unto yourself is factual matter of record. You're proud of that. Admit it.

    I can't prove that you're causing more harm than good in Sedona, but I do know that land managers don't take kindly to the freewheeling cowboy ethos you are so proud of. You have one obsessive agenda; they have multiple responsibilities and multiple resource values to manage. Are you taking credit for all the trails you mentioned?

    velo are you volunteering to help the USFS build the new trail in VOC? I have asked you to contribute and have yet to see any trail work being done by you.

    Omniscient are you? You may be the "self appointed ambassador to Sedona" (blah, blah, blah) but I don't report to you.

    Let's stick to approved A&B lines from now on, eh?
    Velo actions speak louder than words. Land managers aren’t dumb, but they are control oriented. In Sedona when something well thought out is created they have a knee jerk reaction and slash the excellent concept. Then six months, a year or fifteen years later they reopen the B Line, Reroute or Trail. It all part of the PROCESS.

    You don’t promote a $600,000 fund raiser to adopt 8 miles of user created trails and build nineteen miles of new trail and call that going backwards. Those are typical IMBA BS talking points.

  14. #414
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    OK this is what I am talking about in creating a more ridable line. This is a picture taken on a popular user created trail that some terrible mountain biker created. It was originally a 5%'er trail due to the A Line features and steepness of the trail. Recently to make the trail more user friendly to myself and my 80%'er friends I decided to make this B Line improvement on the right side of the rock rollover. As you can see I left the A Line uphill rollover on the left side intact so the 5%'ers could still take the challenging line if they were so inclined. Riding in the downhill direction I still do the rollover.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A Lines or B Lines?-b-line-aline-.jpg  

    Last edited by Switchblade2; 01-13-2018 at 05:12 PM.

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    OK this is what I am talking about in creating a more ridable line. This is a picture taken of on a popular user created trail that some terrible mountain biker created. It was originally a 5%'er trail due to the A Line features and steepness of the trail. Recently to make the trail more user friendly to myself and my 80%'er friends I decided to make this B Line improvement on the right side of the rock rollover. As you can see I left the A Line uphill rollover on the left side intact so the 5%'ers could still take the challenging line if they were so inclined. Riding in the downhill direction I still do the rollover.
    So once again, you aren't the original builder of this trail, or the land manager, or their official representative. And once again, you took it upon yourself to modify a trail. I don't give a rat's ass what your justifications are, and nobody else does either. Stop modifying trails to suit your own skills. You are a plague to legitimate builders everywhere. If I ever caught you or someone else doing this in my area, we'd be having a very serious "discussion".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    OK this is what I am talking about in creating a more ridable line. This is a picture taken of on a popular user created trail that some terrible mountain biker created. It was originally a 5%'er trail due to the A Line features and steepness of the trail. Recently to make the trail more user friendly to myself and my 80%'er friends I decided to make this B Line improvement on the right side of the rock rollover. As you can see I left the A Line uphill rollover on the left side intact so the 5%'ers could still take the challenging line if they were so inclined. Riding in the downhill direction I still do the rollover.
    You are an abomination.

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    Silent when you say my justification for creating the B Line was unjustified how about if I constructed the trail and I wanted to give lesser skilled riders like myself a better chance to ride that spot. I thought my justification was worthy. As one of the trail builder don’t I get to decide what changes are justified?

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Silent when you say my justification for creating the B Line was unjustified how about if I constructed the trail and I wanted to give lesser skilled riders like myself a better chance to ride that spot. I thought my justification was worthy. As one of the trail builder don’t I get to decide what changes are justified?
    Then yes, you can. However, you need to really think about your justification. Does the trail still meet the original intent? Has it degraded? Does it truly need an alternate line or are you building a new line because you're older and your skills have degraded? If we build an advanced trail, I'd expect that when I too am older than dirt, I won't be able to clear sections. I have no intention of going back to alter the trail so that I can ride it.

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  19. #419
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    It's nothing more than a braid to suit his lack of skillz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    It's nothing more than a braid to suit his lack of skillz.
    Hack it seems like you are making fun of my lack of skills. So, I left the A Line rather than just eliminating it entirely. 5%’ers like you are insensitive to lesser skilled riders like me. Whenever I do an improvement like that I feel good that I am providing a much better riding experience for the 80%’ers.

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Hack it seems like you are making fun of my lack of skills. So, I left the A Line rather than just eliminating it entirely. 5%’ers like you are insensitive to lesser skilled riders like me. Whenever I do an improvement like that I feel good that I am providing a much better riding experience for the 80%’ers.
    No. You're creating a cheater line. Unauthorized. If every rider did that, our trails would look like shit. You are not special, you don't get to do it. If you feel you are special, you are just entitled.

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    No, I'm giving you $hit for creating trail braids. Me a 5%? Haha that's funny. I ride trails, if I can't or do not feel comfortable riding something, I walk it like MTB'rs have done for decades. Doesn't ruin my ride, nor braid the trail. It inspires me to see what others CAN ride that I cannot, or don't have the ballz to. Maybe one day I'll actually ride that feature or tech spot.

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    Hack as long as the vast majority of riders are having a better riding experience opportunity I believe what I am doing is worth the effort. 10%’ers and you can still ride or walk the 5% feature, if they have the desire to test their skills. You have to realize that this feature Is after a lot of uphill technical riding that you probably would be walking. I would guess more than 80% of the 10%’ers are going to just ride the B-Line and call it good.

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Hack as long as the vast majority of riders are having a better riding experience opportunity I believe what I am doing is worth the effort. 10%’ers and you can still ride or walk the 5% feature, if they have the desire to test their skills. You have to realize that this feature Is after a lot of uphill technical riding that you probably would be walking. I would guess more than 80% of the 10%’ers are going to just ride the B-Line and call it good.
    Stop trying to justify yourself.

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    Switchblade, I really do appreciate how passionate you are about trails, riding, getting your hands dirty, and living the good life. Just wanted to add that here.

  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Stop trying to justify yourself.

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    Silent what would you expect me to do? I have spent thousands of hours making the riding experience of the majority of riders more enjoyable. MTBR allows its members to communicate how they improve trails for the masses. The 80%’ers are being told by the 5%’ers to leave screwed up trails challenging. Even landmanagers are being blamed for doing trail improvements. I refuse to be told trail improvements are ruining the riding experience for the majority of riders.

  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Silent what would you expect me to do? I have spent thousands of hours making the riding experience of the majority of riders more enjoyable. MTBR allows its members to communicate how they improve trails for the masses. The 80%’ers are being told by the 5%’ers to leave screwed up trails challenging. Even landmanagers are being blamed for doing trail improvements. I refuse to be told trail improvements are ruining the riding experience for the majority of riders.
    I expect you and others to not touch or modify trails you have nothing to do with besides being an end user. You are not "improving" trails, no matter what you keep telling yourself. You are building cheater lines.

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    I'd be curious to see the original condition, but in general, that doesn't look like a bad bit of work depending on the overall trail flavor. Impossible to judge without local knowledge IMO.
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    I will have to assume that the small portion of the trail seen here is similar to the rest of the trail- fairly mellow. It also sounds like this is a two directional trail. If so, the rock to the left seems kind of out of place for the overall character of the trail and people are probably going to be drawn into a shortcut line where he built the B line. Instead of a rut forming from short cutters, it looks like he armored it up. Both lines are obvious and don't really spoil it for people that want to climb over the rock. It also sounds like this is a bootleg trail. OK, I think I'm going to have to give it to John on this one with one condition- if he knows the builder, and I bet he does, he should have run it past him before starting any modifications.

  30. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpressnall View Post
    I will have to assume that the small portion of the trail seen here is similar to the rest of the trail- fairly mellow. It also sounds like this is a two directional trail. If so, the rock to the left seems kind of out of place for the overall character of the trail and people are probably going to be drawn into a shortcut line where he built the B line. Instead of a rut forming from short cutters, it looks like he armored it up. Both lines are obvious and don't really spoil it for people that want to climb over the rock. It also sounds like this is a bootleg trail. OK, I think I'm going to have to give it to John on this one with one condition- if he knows the builder, and I bet he does, he should have run it past him before starting any modifications.
    bpress excellent summary. I have been doing improvements rather than A or B Lines on several other short sections to make it more rideable for us lesser skilled 80%’ers. I will take some pictures of those and see if you approve.

  31. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    So once again, you aren't the original builder of this trail, or the land manager, or their official representative. And once again, you took it upon yourself to modify a trail. I don't give a rat's ass what your justifications are, and nobody else does either. Stop modifying trails to suit your own skills. You are a plague to legitimate builders everywhere. If I ever caught you or someone else doing this in my area, we'd be having a very serious "discussion".

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    Bingo! Everything I wanted to say when I saw that photo and what was done. WTF does it take to get it through some of your heads to stop modifying trails to suit skill sets.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  32. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Bingo! Everything I wanted to say when I saw that photo and what was done. WTF does it take to get it through some of your heads to stop modifying trails to suit skill sets.
    DIRT by all the positive comments about me providing a much better riding experience for the 80%’ers it obvious nobody it taking your advise.

  33. #433
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    Being banned from the N.F. once apparently wasn't enough.
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    Once again, someone here is waiting for a pat on the back and doesn't understand the PROCESS
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Being banned from the N.F. once apparently wasn't enough.
    /thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    OK this is what I am talking about in creating a more ridable line. This is a picture taken on a popular user created trail that some terrible mountain biker created. It was originally a 5%'er trail due to the A Line features and steepness of the trail. Recently to make the trail more user friendly to myself and my 80%'er friends I decided to make this B Line improvement on the right side of the rock rollover. As you can see I left the A Line uphill rollover on the left side intact so the 5%'ers could still take the challenging line if they were so inclined. Riding in the downhill direction I still do the rollover.

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    Keep trying to do the awesomest thing you've ever done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Being banned from the N.F. once apparently wasn't enough.
    Life behind bars have you ever built one trail that anyone has posted a video on? If so please share it with us. I would like to be able to thank you for creating something way cool for the MTB community.
    Last edited by Switchblade2; 01-15-2018 at 08:50 AM.

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    behind it was actually twice that I was asked to not enter the NF. The first time for building the awesome world class Hiline trail and the second time building the very challenging Hangover trail.

    Both of those must do challenging trails have had tens of thousands of riders on them

    The Enforcement Ranger said he thought I thought I was a better trail builder then the actual land manager trail crew. I really don’t think I was better just more PASSIONATE and a lot more efficient and way more cost effective since I worked for FREE.

    If you Google: Hiline Sedona or Hangover Sedona you will see hundreds of posts and videos of those two iconic trails.

    Life behind bars have you ever built one trail that anyone has posted a video on? If so please share it with us. I would like to be able to thank you for creating something way cool for the MTB community.
    You keep trying to justify illegal trail building. You keep failing at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    DIRT by all the positive comments about me providing a much better riding experience for the 80%’ers it obvious nobody it taking your advise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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  41. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    behind it was actually twice that I was asked to not enter the NF. The first time for building the awesome world class Hiline trail and the second time building the very challenging Hangover trail.

    Both of those must do challenging trails have had tens of thousands of riders on them

    The Enforcement Ranger said he thought I thought I was a better trail builder then the actual land manager trail crew. I really don’t think I was better just more PASSIONATE and a lot more efficient and way more cost effective since I worked for FREE.

    If you Google: Hiline Sedona or Hangover Sedona you will see hundreds of posts and videos of those two iconic trails.

    Life behind bars have you ever built one trail that anyone has posted a video on? If so please share it with us. I would like to be able to thank you for creating something way cool for the MTB community.
    Switch are you taking full credit for these two iconic Sedona trails? That's sort of like Trump taking credit for the economy. Besides you didn't get nailed for either of those two trails. Fake News! The 2nd offense was for pruning vegetation on Anaconda.

    That's not to say you haven't built lots of trails that I like to ride which I truly appreciate but this thread sucks. Just do your B lines and don't post about it. This attention seeking shtick is getting old. And I have to say my meeting (questioning) with the USFS LEO when they were building their case against you was not pleasant. He knew everything about me. We're not talking small town sheriff here. Rather more, akin to the FBI. They always get their man eventually. And they monitor social media.

  42. #442
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    How am I trying to justify trail building? I have stated the Sedona is a World Class mountain bike destination due to user created trails like Hiline, the Hogs and Hangover.

    I never said that the land manager created any awesome trails but they did adopt a bunch of the user created trails like Hiline, Hog Heaven, Hog Wash, Special Ed, Canyon of Fools, To Mescal, To Long Canyon, Airport, Bandit, Carrol Canyon, Pyramid, Sketch, Snake, Anaconda, Grand Central, Mescal, Chuck Wagon, Lower Lizard, Secret Slick Rock, Double D, Hangover, Easy Breezy, Slim Shady, Made in the Shade, Lama, Ramshead, Plunge, Anthill, and Shorty.

    Current user created trails in process to be adopted in 2018 are: Western Civilization, Last Frontier, Ledge’n’Airy and Drano. We don’t really care that the user created trails were built by volunteers without the land managers help for FREE. What we care about is having a great system of trails that the awesome mountain community around the world can enjoy.

    The landmanger is proposing to make nineteen miles of new trails in 2018. Today we did a recon ride to check out the new Sh!t Hole trail that replaces the current entrance to Last Frontier. I would assume it will cost about $50,000 to build and should be awesome. Plumber Phil routed it and he has been responsible for about twelve user created trails. What a Country!

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    Trails should cost ZERO dollars to build IMO.

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    Hack I totally agree. I think that there should be NO public funding to build or at least maintain new trails. There are certainly more important needs for public funds than making trails. In Sedona and Gold Canyon it has been shown that popular trails can be built for FREE by PASSIONATE volunteers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Hack I totally agree. I think that there should be NO public funding to build or at least maintain new trails. There are certainly more important needs for public funds than making trails. In Sedona and Gold Canyon it has been shown that popular trails can be built for FREE by PASSIONATE volunteers.

    Agreed. Wholeheartedly.

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    Switch, I know you just post to get reassurance and not advice, but I'll give you mine anyway. Many people appreciate what you do, so perhaps it's best to be happy and let it go at that. Don't bother posting any more photos. Just let this thread go now and go do what you do without the fanfare, and I think you will be better off. I had a great time riding in Sedona- Hangover and Highline were my favorites. Thanks for the work you did there. Anyway, I won't be posting any more on the thread. Take it easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpressnall View Post
    Switch, I know you just post to get reassurance and not advice, but I'll give you mine anyway. Many people appreciate what you do, so perhaps it's best to be happy and let it go at that. Don't bother posting any more photos. Just let this thread go now and go do what you do without the fanfare, and I think you will be better off. I had a great time riding in Sedona- Hangover and Highline were my favorites. Thanks for the work you did there. Anyway, I won't be posting any more on the thread. Take it easy.
    bpress thanks for the advise. The reason I continue to post is to let the majority of the mountain bike public know the Sedona mountain bike community is trying to give them a good user experience. We all know MTBR is the GoTo resource on how trails are created and maintained in certain areas. In Sedona the land manger has never communicated to the public how the users made a huge contribution to our outstanding trail system. I believe the history of how trails were created is as important as the local Native American History surrounding Sedona. Maybe neither is important to most people, but a lot of energy and money is spent on trying to preserve local Native American History which does nothing to give us a great riding experience with our friends. On today's adventure ride we spotted this future artifact which represents the type of tools that were used to create a very popular user created trails. Hundreds of years from now it will be considered historical. I wonder if it's one of Plumber Phil's?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A Lines or B Lines?-historical-tool-.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    bpress thanks for the advise. The reason I continue to post is to let the majority of the mountain bike public know the Sedona mountain bike community is trying to give them a good user experience. We all know MTBR is the GoTo resource on how trails are created and maintained in certain areas. In Sedona the land manger has never communicated to the public how the users made a huge contribution to our outstanding trail system. I believe the history of how trails were created is as important as the local Native American History surrounding Sedona. Maybe neither is important to most people, but a lot of energy and money is spent on trying to preserve local Native American History which does nothing to give us a great riding experience with our friends. On today's adventure ride we spotted this future artifact which represents the type of tools that were used to create a very popular user created trails. Hundreds of years from now it will be considered historical. I wonder if it's one of Plumber Phil's?
    Does anybody else hear these in the voice of Grayson Morehead Securities from vintage SNL?

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  49. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Switch are you taking full credit for these two iconic Sedona trails? That's sort of like Trump taking credit for the economy. Besides you didn't get nailed for either of those two trails. Fake News! The 2nd offense was for pruning vegetation on Anaconda.

    That's not to say you haven't built lots of trails that I like to ride which I truly appreciate but this thread sucks. Just do your B lines and don't post about it. This attention seeking shtick is getting old. And I have to say my meeting (questioning) with the USFS LEO when they were building their case against you was not pleasant. He knew everything about me. We're not talking small town sheriff here. Rather more, akin to the FBI. They always get their man eventually. And they monitor social media.
    Come on rock the story wouldn't be as believable if I was kicked out of the NF for trimming vegetation encroaching a popular adopted system trail creating user conflicts between high speed FS employees hauling ass down the trail scaring equestrians, grandma, grandpa, grand children and Jennifer's old dogs off leash. Taking credit for having built two of the most famous user created trails sounded better for the people who hate user created trails.

  50. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    bpress thanks for the advise. The reason I continue to post is to let the majority of the mountain bike public know the Sedona mountain bike community is trying to give them a good user experience. We all know MTBR is the GoTo resource on how trails are created and maintained in certain areas. In Sedona the land manger has never communicated to the public how the users made a huge contribution to our outstanding trail system. I believe the history of how trails were created is as important as the local Native American History surrounding Sedona. Maybe neither is important to most people, but a lot of energy and money is spent on trying to preserve local Native American History which does nothing to give us a great riding experience with our friends. On today's adventure ride we spotted this future artifact which represents the type of tools that were used to create a very popular user created trails. Hundreds of years from now it will be considered historical. I wonder if it's one of Plumber Phil's?
    Switch, I'm starting to think a mere trail system is not a sufficient monument to your dedication to the Sedona visitor experience and the user-built movement. I mean trails are so hidden out there among the the trees and boulders and Native American junk and stuff. I think a huge billboard on Bell Rock would be more fitting. On it you could explain the true history of Sedona, like how the red rocks weren't red at all until you arrived from Cali with a motorcasa full of red paint, a big tool... er paint brush, and an ego the size of Courthouse Butte.

    Edit: Be sure to leave room for a big photo, so we can recognize you out on the trail and thank you. If you're not banned from the forest, that is. You can use one of your two mugshots.
    Last edited by veloborealis; 01-15-2018 at 07:01 AM. Reason: Hyperbole and alternative facts
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  51. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    bpress thanks for the advise. The reason I continue to post is to let the majority of the mountain bike public know the Sedona mountain bike community is trying to give them a good user experience. We all know MTBR is the GoTo resource on how trails are created and maintained in certain areas. In Sedona the land manger has never communicated to the public how the users made a huge contribution to our outstanding trail system. I believe the history of how trails were created is as important as the local Native American History surrounding Sedona. Maybe neither is important to most people, but a lot of energy and money is spent on trying to preserve local Native American History which does nothing to give us a great riding experience with our friends. On today's adventure ride we spotted this future artifact which represents the type of tools that were used to create a very popular user created trails. Hundreds of years from now it will be considered historical. I wonder if it's one of Plumber Phil's?
    What would you have the USFS do? Because of the efforts of one dedicated Rec Staff Ranger they adopted 90% of the user-built trails without having a budget to maintain those same trails. The FS isn't the ones marketing the trails it's the city and one bike shop in particular. With the non profit Red Rock Trail Fund they now have an entity in place for maintenance. In a decade the mileage of official trails went from 100 to 300. Isn't the fact they adopted those iconic routes like HiLine and Hangover enough kudos or would you like to see some sort of public mea culpa that they were asleep at the wheel? It's time for you to write your tell-all book similar to Rama Jon except try to avoid the spelling errors.
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  52. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Switch, I'm starting to think a mere trail system is not a sufficient monument to your dedication to the Sedona visitor experience and the user-built movement. On it you could explain the true history of Sedona, like how the red rocks weren't red at all until you arrived from Cali with a motorcasa full of red paint, a big tool... er paint brush, and an ego the size of Courthouse Butte.
    velo as stated previously I do believe the pioneer mountain biking community that were responsible for making Sedona a World Class mountain bike destination should be given credit for a big part of the process. I have asked Jennifer to write a book about the process from the USFS point of view as an important information piece and who knows maybe someday she will publish a best seller.

    Just for the record the picture I posted was actually work recently done by the USFS on the Thunder Mt. Reroute trail. Originally the 5%'ers wanted Plumber Phil to build an A Line trail which lasted about four months. The USFS found out it wasn’t popular by the majority of the mountain bike community, so it was improved to make it more friendly to lesser skilled riders. There were a ton of improvements made besides the picture i posted. For me personally they did some great work. I can clean every section now and I am much happier when I ride the trail. When you come up next week you should try it out. I recommend riding it west to east.
    Last edited by Switchblade2; 01-15-2018 at 01:55 PM.

  53. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    velo as stated previously I do believe the pioneer mountain biking community that were responsible for making Sedona a World Class mountain bike destination should be given credit for a big part of the process. I have asked Jennifer to write a book about the process from the USFS point of view as an important information piece and who knows maybe someday she will publish a best seller.

    Just for the record the picture I posted was actually work recently done by the USFS on the Thunder Mt. Reroute trail. Originally the 5%'ers wanted Plumber Phil to build an A Line trail which lasted about four month. They found out it was popular by the majority of the mountain bike community so it was improved to make it more friendly to lesser skilled riders. There were a ton of improvements made besides the picture i posted. For me personally they did some great work. I can clean every section now and I am much happier when I ride the trail. When you come up next week you should try it out. I recommend riding it west to east.
    I'm sure Jennifer appreciates your suggestions. And so glad you're happy. That's the most important thing.
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  54. #454
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    Some of you guys do realize that maybe it's not such a good idea to commit a crime, take and post photos of it, and then admit to it publicly and proudly gasconade on social media about it? When you are hoist, it will be by your own petards! You're seriously flunking Criminality 101 and probably need to go back to remedial thug school.

  55. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildfire View Post
    Some of you guys do realize that maybe it's not such a good idea to commit a crime, take and post photos of it, and then admit to it publicly and proudly gasconade on social media about it? When you are hoist, it will be by your own petards! You're seriously flunking Criminality 101 and probably need to go back to remedial thug school.
    Same goes for riding, taking pics, video and posting of riding on illegal rogue trails. If you poo poo rogue trail building, but ride rogue trails yourself then you are a hypocrite.

  56. #456
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    OK I went up on the Thunder Mt. reroute trail today and took more pictures and several videos of the recent work the FS to reduce the skill level necessary to ride this trail. I had also taken three short videos to show the extensive rock work replacing chunky uphill rock sections, but MTBR doesn't except .MOV files.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A Lines or B Lines?-tm-3.jpg  

    A Lines or B Lines?-tm-4.jpg  

    A Lines or B Lines?-tm-6.jpg  

    A Lines or B Lines?-tm-7.jpg  

    A Lines or B Lines?-tm-9.jpg  


  57. #457
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    Nice ^
    Almost wheelchair like. Maybe get some flyers together and put them around the local retirement villages and let them know of this new sport they should try out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    DIRT your response must be major sarcasm, right? I thought the USFS did a really good job making those climbing sections more rideable. I spoke with a lot of hikers on it and they were really happy with the recent work. There weren't any riders on it when I rode thru, but I did talk to an old time rider, that use to work for Craig at the Bike & Bean and was a lead mechanic at Absolute, who was sitting in the Adante Parking lot after making a loop. He said he really enjoyed the way it climbed from west to east.

  59. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    DIRT your response must be major sarcasm, right? I thought the USFS did a really good job making those climbing sections more rideable. I spoke with a lot of hikers on it and they were really happy with the recent work. There weren't any riders on it when I rode thru, but I did talk to an old time rider, that use to work for Craig at the Bike & Bean and was a lead mechanic at Absolute, who was sitting in the Adante Parking lot. He said he really enjoyed the way it climbed from west to east.
    Yeah, it’s gorgeous. At first I thought you altered it per skill set.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    That's some pretty rock work. It looks awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Nice ^
    Almost wheelchair like. Maybe get some flyers together and put them around the local retirement villages and let them know of this new sport they should try out.
    😂😂😂

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildfire View Post
    Some of you guys do realize that maybe it's not such a good idea to commit a crime, take and post photos of it, and then admit to it publicly and proudly gasconade on social media about it? When you are hoist, it will be by your own petards! You're seriously flunking Criminality 101 and probably need to go back to remedial thug school.
    Take a look at Rockman's post above. He mentions that 90% of trails built without authorization by riders have now been adopted into the Forest Service Trail System.

    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails. No petards and no hoisting involved. But I could really use a petard to remove a couple large boulders from a trail I ride. Do they sell those at Home Depot?

  63. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Take a look at Rockman's post above. He mentions that 90% of trails built without authorization by riders have now been adopted into the Forest Service Trail System.

    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails. No petards and no hoisting involved. But I could really use a petard to remove a couple large boulders from a trail I ride. Do they sell those at Home Depot?
    Interesting take, Boris. Rockman also mentioned that agency LEOs monitor social media while investigating illegal activity on public land. Maybe it's just to make an example of the more flamboyant offenders who rub their noses in the fact that they don't have the resources to manage the land and enforce the regs? Seems like keeping a somewhat low profile may be wise.
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  64. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Take a look at Rockman's post above. He mentions that 90% of trails built without authorization by riders have now been adopted into the Forest Service Trail System.

    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. ?
    Yup. Local land trust "stumbled" upon a recent 8 mile network built by cough cough me cough cough and they were so pleased with what they found that they gave their graces to continue the building and maintaining of the trails and future trails. They just want any bridges built to be elevated. Had I asked permission first, I woulda been shot down no doubt. Better to beg for forgiveness guy here.😉

  65. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Take a look at Rockman's post above. He mentions that 90% of trails built without authorization by riders have now been adopted into the Forest Service Trail System.

    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails. No petards and no hoisting involved. But I could really use a petard to remove a couple large boulders from a trail I ride. Do they sell those at Home Depot?
    YRMV. Maybe that works in the wild west. Sometimes different results in the crowed east. Trails get shut down. To all users. Sometimes. Mt bikers get thrown out in other cases.

  66. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Silent what would you expect me to do? I have spent thousands of hours making the riding experience of the majority of riders more enjoyable. MTBR allows its members to communicate how they improve trails for the masses. The 80%’ers are being told by the 5%’ers to leave screwed up trails challenging. Even landmanagers are being blamed for doing trail improvements. I refuse to be told trail improvements are ruining the riding experience for the majority of riders.
    Uggg. Improve? Try dumbing down. Who made you in charge to speak for all of mountain biking? So sad. Very sad. Please don't come out east, we like our variety of challenging trails. How else is one supposed to improve? One section on a popular State Forest has sort of stairs, probably built by the CCC work crews. Very hiker friendly, not so much for bikes. Some lines are to the side, a really tough up, I have never cleaned the whole thing. 6 of us are near the bottom, discussing lines and plans. I hear" left", this older guy in cut off shorts and high tops comes by on a 29er Ti SS. No pause, right up. We are all slack jawed. And spent the next 1/2 hour working on it. I made it 3/4 of the way up, one other made it 90% of the way up. Success for the day. And a challenge for the next time. The bar has been set. There are 3 other trails in the area for the "70%" to ride. Don't lower the bar. Or dumb it down. This is at Harold Parker state forest, one of my closest locals. I end up walking on just about every ride. Not all the time, not on every section. Depends on the day and direction. Say we have a group of 10, most of the tough sections will be cleaned, but not by everyone. I wouldn't have it any other way. Where is the challenge?
    You want a participation trophy? Not. Stall, wobble, tip over, cuss, bleed. Repeat as needed. Some get it, some never will.
    Last edited by leeboh; 01-16-2018 at 09:32 AM.

  67. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Take a look at Rockman's post above. He mentions that 90% of trails built without authorization by riders have now been adopted into the Forest Service Trail System.

    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails. No petards and no hoisting involved. But I could really use a petard to remove a couple large boulders from a trail I ride. Do they sell those at Home Depot?
    Boris, I just made those numbers up but it's probably not far off. Anyhow, the golden era of rogue building in Sedona was in the 2000s when the land manager was asleep at the wheel. That era is over and the land manager is now engaged. All illegal trail building does now is throw mud in the face of those trying to get things done through proper channels.

    Just my opinion but you might find it interesting that the proposal RA and I are about to submit for the Fort Valley trail system doesn't propose adopting any of the existing social trails. The general location, yes, but the existing rake and ride trails are unsustainable and not good work products.

  68. #468
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    wow this thread went waaaay off topic.


    I thought this was about designing a trail from ground up with both A and B Lines in Sections?

    Reign it in people.
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  69. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails....
    Maybe where you live. If you do that these days in my part of the world, you're likely to get your ass kicked - by mountain bikers, who now understand how much illegal trail building could endanger their hard-won, good relationships with land managers and their future viability for building legal trails. Those days, and the mentality that goes along with it, are over, and frankly I can't believe someone in 2018 is publicly encouraging people to break the law on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    ...Anyhow, the golden era of rogue building in Sedona was in the 2000s when the land manager was asleep at the wheel. That era is over and the land manager is now engaged. All illegal trail building does now is throw mud in the face of those trying to get things done through proper channels.
    Exactly.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  70. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails. No petards and no hoisting involved. But I could really use a petard to remove a couple large boulders from a trail I ride. Do they sell those at Home Depot?
    rockman and Smithhammer have already made the relevant points in response to this, but it's worth also pointing out that this attitude is a major reason for resistance to opening Wilderness or other new areas to bicycle use. It's an accusation that wildlife/conservation/wilderness advocates frequently make of mountain bikers. But here it's posted proudly on a major MTB forum. And someone who's repeatedly been banned from NFS lands and this forum keeps lecturing us on the PROCESS.

  71. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post

    ...If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails... But I could really use a petard to remove a couple large boulders from a trail I ride. Do they sell those at Home Depot?
    You're contradicting yourself, Boris. How does posting pics and confessions help you not get caught? You guys have the "Don't Ask" part down really well but your "Don't Tell" needs a little work.

    Unfortunately, they really reined in the sales of petards after 9/11, sadly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    YRMV. Maybe that works in the wild west. Sometimes different results in the crowed east. Trails get shut down. To all users. Sometimes. Mt bikers get thrown out in other cases.
    Heh ongoing rogue trail building and getting away with it in Mass is like shooting fish in a barrel. Have you ridden the Plymouth area or the Cape? Talk about Wild West. I built miles and miles of trail in those parts years ago and none have been shut down that I know of.

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    ^^^^ OK, point taken. Try the Fells or The Ware River Watershed. Good read about the Ware river in a recent BIKE mag. And years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    ^^^^ OK, point taken. Try the Fells or The Ware River Watershed. Good read about the Ware river in a recent BIKE mag. And years ago?
    Yes between early/mid 90's and 2007.

    I did read that article about Ware. Yowza. And ya Fells wouldn't work out so well agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    rockman and Smithhammer have already made the relevant points in response to this, but it's worth also pointing out that this attitude is a major reason for resistance to opening Wilderness or other new areas to bicycle use. It's an accusation that wildlife/conservation/wilderness advocates frequently make of mountain bikers. But here it's posted proudly on a major MTB forum. And someone who's repeatedly been banned from NFS lands and this forum keeps lecturing us on the PROCESS.
    evasive this sounds like total Fake News are you just making this up?
    Please provide a STUDY that shows that being PASSIONATE about building sustainable popular mountain bike trails has adversely affected trying to allow mountain biking in the Wilderness. I will bet you $100 that you can't provide such a study.

    Land managers are seeing mountain biking a a great sport and they can easily justify well built trails in the Wilderness. I doubt they have the budget to build such trails, so that leaves the building up to volunteers.

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    So this is the YouTube Video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydC...ature=youtu.be ) of the recent work the USFS did to lower the skill level needed to clean the trail that a B Line was installed.

  77. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    evasive this sounds like total Fake News are you just making this up?
    Please provide a STUDY that shows that being PASSIONATE about building sustainable popular mountain bike trails has adversely affected trying to allow mountain biking in the Wilderness. I will bet you $100 that you can't provide such a study.

    Land managers are seeing mountain biking a a great sport and they can easily justify well built trails in the Wilderness. I doubt they have the budget to build such trails, so that leaves the building up to volunteers.
    Switch, please provide the name and contact info for one federal land manager who supports allowing bikes and building new trails in Wilderness areas. I would like to speak with such an enlightened individual.
    Veni vidi velo!

  78. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    evasive this sounds like total Fake News are you just making this up?
    Please provide a STUDY that shows that being PASSIONATE about building sustainable popular mountain bike trails has adversely affected trying to allow mountain biking in the Wilderness. I will bet you $100 that you can't provide such a study.
    If you can't understand how building trails illegally on public lands is a black eye for us as a user group, and that if/when it becomes widespread it affects land manager decision-making about what they are going to allow, then you are even more dense than I previously suspected. Whether you're "passionate" about it or not is irrelevant.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Smith please show us the study. When you guys make up stuff it needs to be called out. Eventually there will be mountain bikers riding in the Wilderness it’s all part of the PROCESS that STC is involved in. Do you really believe they are going to give up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Smith please show us the study. When you guys make up stuff it needs to be called out.
    What are you smoking that you think a "study" has been done on how land manager decision-making is negatively affected by illegal activity on the lands they are responsible for? Do you think someone went around and interviewed them to document how they felt about this? I think any reasonably sane person would agree that they aren't going to be psyched about people circumventing the legal process, regardless of whether a "study" has been done or not.

    That's akin to saying, "show me the study that shows that cops get pissed off when people break the law. Because if there isn't a study about that, then you're just making it up...."

    What truly needs to be called out here is you and Doris "passionately" advocating that people should break the law and trust that they will be forgiven later, and that this doesn't negatively affect our reputation as a user group. But nice attempt at deflection, kiddo.

    Eventually there will be mountain bikers riding in the Wilderness it’s all part of the PROCESS that STC is involved in. Do you really believe they are going to give up?
    What did I even say about future possibility of riding in Wilderness? Nothing.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  81. #481
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    The name of one federal land manager, Switch? Come on you are the self-appointed expert on all things trail related and and a professional at calling out others for spreading fake news. Hold yourself accountable to the same standard. One name.We are on the same side of this issue. Help me out.
    Veni vidi velo!

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    Deleted.
    Last edited by veloborealis; 01-16-2018 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Duplicate post
    Veni vidi velo!

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    velo are you saying STC is wasting their time? I asked for the study and I am being attacked because there isn’t one. How am I going to be able to find out what every federal land manager thinks about mountain bikers riding in the Wilderness?

    I once contacted 155 National Forests as to whether they would allow me to do trail maintenance in their NF. I told them I had been kicked out of the Coconino NF for doing trail maintence and would that be a problem? Twebty five came back and said they would be happy for me to help out with reducing erosion potential and brush trimming.

    My point is that it’s impossible to know what every landmanager thinks. I can tell you that the head of the Coconino National Forest Law Enforcement went crazy when I forwarded my requests to him. When he saw that twenty-five said it wasn’t a problem and when can you show up, he was amazed.

    Why are nineteen new miles of trails and eight miles of user created trails being adopted in Sedona in 2018 when we have had all those well built user created trails built here?

  84. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    velo are you saying STC is wasting their time? I asked for the study and I am being attacked because there isn’t one. How am I going to be able to find out what every federal land manager thinks about mountain bikers riding in the Wilderness?

    I once contacted 155 National Forests as to whether they would allow me to do trail maintenance in their NF. I told them I had been kicked out of the Coconino NF for doing trail maintence and would that be a problem? Twebty five came back and said they would be happy for me to help out with reducing erosion potential and brush trimming.

    My point is that it’s impossible to know what every landmanager thinks. I can tell you that the head of the Coconino National Forest Law Enforcement went crazy when I forwarded my requests to him. When he saw that twenty-five said it wasn’t a problem and when can you show up, he was amazed.

    Why are nineteen new miles of trails and eight miles of user created trails being adopted in Sedona in 2018 when we have had all those well built user created trails built here?
    Four paragraphs, no answer. Classic Switch.
    Veni vidi velo!

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    Switch, since I didn't know much about them I just googled the STCs board of directors and list of supporting organizations and not one appears to be an active or former land manager of any kind, let alone connected to a federal agency. It's your usual group of doctors, lawyers, software consultants, outdoor enthusiasts, etc. I support their goal, but you throwing out their name hardly supports your assertion, nor does it answer my question.

    Are you just making this stuff up?
    Veni vidi velo!

  86. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    evasive this sounds like total Fake News are you just making this up?
    Please provide a STUDY that shows that being PASSIONATE about building sustainable popular mountain bike trails has adversely affected trying to allow mountain biking in the Wilderness. I will bet you $100 that you can't provide such a study.

    Land managers are seeing mountain biking a a great sport and they can easily justify well built trails in the Wilderness. I doubt they have the budget to build such trails, so that leaves the building up to volunteers.
    That is the stupidest proposal for study I've heard in a long time.

    Am I making up that conservation/wildlife/wilderness advocates claim that allowing MTB use in new places will lead to an explosion in rogue trail building? No. I've heard it many times. The thread I started on rogue trail construction has links to public comments making exactly that claim. And while we push back against that, one only has to find MTBR to see you chuckleheads insisting that's the way for mountain bikers should behave.

  87. #487
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    Velo are you saying that mountain biking in the Wilderness is never going to happen because there are no land managers on the STC BOD? Why do you support mountain bikes in the Wilderness if it’s a waste of time? My gut tells me that mountain biking in the Wilderness will happen first in selective locations. I had the same feeling about Sedona becoming a world class mountain bike destination. I choose to have a positive mindset about bikes in the Wilderness.

    Your questioning me, reminds me of the media asking a doctor questions. When he said “good health” they couldn’t accept his answer because it just couldn’t be possible.

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    Originally Posted by Boris Badenov
    It has been proven, time and time again, that if you illegally build a quality trail, the land managers will most often overlook the fact no environmental or archeological studies were done, and they will adopt that trail into the legal system of riding trails. If you can build it without getting caught building it, you can be 90% certain it will be designated a lawful trail. They might not have taught that in your Criminality 101 class. However, it was covered extensively in Criminality 202 aka the ends justifies the means. In summary, it is a very good idea to illegally build quality trails, take and post pictures of them, and get others to ride them so they will be more likely to get adopted as legal trails....
    Originally Posted by rockman
    ...Anyhow, the golden era of rogue building in Sedona was in the 2000s when the land manager was asleep at the wheel. That era is over and the land manager is now engaged. All illegal trail building does now is throw mud in the face of those trying to get things done through proper channels.
    Exactly.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Maybe where you live. If you do that these days in my part of the world, you're likely to get your ass kicked - by mountain bikers, who now understand how much illegal trail building could endanger their hard-won, good relationships with land managers and their future viability for building legal trails. Those days, and the mentality that goes along with it, are over, and frankly I can't believe someone in 2018 is publicly encouraging people to break the law on this forum.

    I respect what Rockman and RA say and do to help get more well built trails. I would agree with Rockman's summary of where we are today. In Sedona, the illegally built trails forced the FS to do several things. They had to engage the mountain bike community because they could see they were not serving them well. They adopted most of the illegally built trails. They closed a small number. My crews were hired to cover at least one of those trails. The FS also had to make the trails better in quality, sustainability, and address specific needs of advanced riders. It was all a result of mountain bikers taking the initiative and building illegal trails for years and years. The bottom line may be that 50 new trails were built and 2 or 3 got closed down. It was well worth the effort.

    In Flagstaff, new trail construction slowed down and then stopped. Existing trails were not being maintained. Some were getting abandoned as a result. Something was going horribly wrong at the Forest Service. Staffing included people who were not motivated. Their volunteer coordinator rarely showed up for volunteer events. The person running the seasonal trail crew failed to apply for grants to fund trail work. Instead, he used his past red-card training to hitch a ride with hotshot crews to do support work on fires, during the peak of summer trail building season. So nothing was getting done. After a fire or heavy rains that destroyed sections of trails, rehab work on the trails was made a low priority. The FS staff never once came to visit the conservation corps in town and discuss future work projects. They didn't visit bike shops and they didn't hold public planning meetings where bikers could contribute ideas for new trails.

    The top person working at the Peaks Ranger District in Flagstaff made the decision, years ago, to adopt trails that were illegally built by motorcycles and then ridden in by mountain bikers. That template was followed by others. Trail connectors were built. New single track trails were built to allow riders to get off of fire roads or gas pipeline access roads and onto good flowing trails. At first the FS sent crews out to cover the wildcat trails. Then they were uncovered, and the FS quickly gave in and announced the illegal trails were now FS approved system trails. This was repeated several times. I was tipped off by the #2 in command at the FS that the LEO's were looking to make an example of someone and he told me to stay away from a specific area. He supported the rogue trail work but didn't want it to spread into the wilderness.

    Not to get to deep into specifics of doing illegal trail work but today people hike and bike with cell phones with cameras. That changes the dynamic. Over 90% of people passing by when trail work was being done, approved of the work. But they often thought the work was sanctioned.

    Bottom line; The FS staff spoke to me about illegal trail work done by the downhill riders in Flagstaff. They said they were upset over the unsustainable trails they would build and then quickly abandon. So here was there solution; delay construction of several new XC trails and go build trails specifically for advanced riders, in hopes of keeping them from building new trails of their own. Get it? They wanted to reward the illegal trail builders and move them to the front of the line. If you were living in Flagstaff from 1996 to present, you and your riding friends know that if you wanted a new connector trail, you could plan it out and build it with confidence it would get used a lot. If you were actively volunteering, you'd get free training. Some riders did exactly that. They even stole some of the trail tools during a volunteer event, to use making illegal trails.

    The FS can be shamed into doing what it is suppose to do, what they are paid to do. If you don't get engaged like Rockman and Raising Arizona, and hold the FS accountable, they will get very little done and there timeline will stretch for decades. This is the first year in many that I believe the FS is going to move projects forward in Flagstaff. Mostly because of passionate mountain bikers stepping up. some worked outside the rules and now others have patiently been working within the rules. I believe both groups were needed.

  89. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Velo are you saying that mountain biking in the Wilderness is never going to happen because there are no land managers on the STC BOD? Why do you support mountain bikes in the Wilderness if it’s a waste of time? My gut tells me that mountain biking in the Wilderness will happen first in selective locations. I had the same feeling about Sedona becoming a world class mountain bike destination. I choose to have a positive mindset about bikes in the Wilderness.

    Your questioning me, reminds me of the media asking a doctor questions. When he said “good health” they couldn’t accept his answer because it just couldn’t be possible.
    Quit the BS Switch. I am asking you to back up this statement from post #479:

    Land managers are seeing mountain biking a a great sport and they can easily justify well built trails in the Wilderness. I doubt they have the budget to build such trails, so that leaves the building up to volunteers.

    Name one federal land manager who supports allowing bikes and building new trails in Wilderness. You want a study. I want one name from the guy who purports, ad nauseum, to be the expert on user built trails and to speak for 80 percent of the mtb community. Otherwise it seems pretty clear that you just make this stuff up. Fake News, if you will.
    Veni vidi velo!

  90. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Quit the BS Switch. I am asking you to back up this statement from post #479:

    Land managers are seeing mountain biking a a great sport and they can easily justify well built trails in the Wilderness. I doubt they have the budget to build such trails, so that leaves the building up to volunteers.

    Name one federal land manager who supports allowing bikes and building new trails in Wilderness. You want a study. I want one name from the guy who purports, ad nauseum, to be the expert on user built trails and to speak for 80 percent of the mtb community. Otherwise it seems pretty clear that you just make this stuff up. Fake News, if you will.
    velo your Switchblade2 Derangement Syndrome is getting the best of you. Once again you attack me for wanting more well built mountain bike trails sooner rather than later, since that seems to make you feel good about yourself, I say keep it up.

  91. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    velo your Switchblade2 Derangement Syndrome is getting the best of you. Once again you attack me for wanting more well built mountain bike trails sooner rather than later, since that seems to make you feel good about yourself, I say keep it up.
    No, Switch, trying to get you to be honest for once makes me feel like a bully. You've exposed yourself as the small man behind the curtain that you are. If you think I should keep it up, it's time to quit.
    Veni vidi velo!

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    So I think we need to get back on track with the A Line and B Line discussion and the lowering of the skill level of A Line trail so that more lesser skilled riders can enjoy a certain trail. The Thunder Mt. trail was originally built to give the higher skilled riders something new to ride in Sedona. They supposedly were going to be able to input as to how the trail was to be routed and built so it would be super challenging for lesser skilled riders.

    During the construction I went out and documented the whole building process from start to finish by doing multiple videos. I have videos of that process if anyone is interested. This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uejjtgqdFw) is of my first ride on the original completed build four months ago. This first part of the video is of the easier section of trail riding east to west. Since the video is 12 minutes and seven seconds long I would start at the five minute point to see how the trail was constructed four months ago.

  93. #493
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    12 hours.




    Just an FYI. It’s been 12 hours since another long winded response to problem that shouldn’t exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    12 hours.




    Just an FYI. It’s been 12 hours since another long winded response to problem that shouldn’t exist.
    DIRT I think that the Preserve Moore post and this A Line B Line post have pretty much covered every aspect of why B Line options are created for lesser skilled riders that are either happy with their current skill level or want to improve their skill level.
    Last edited by Switchblade2; 01-18-2018 at 04:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    So I think we need to get back on track with the A Line and B Line discussion and the lowering of the skill level of A Line trail so that more lesser skilled riders can enjoy a certain trail......
    Or maybe we could get back to lowering the performance standards and measures of every other challenging or educational activity so that we can continue to get steamrolled by countries that still demand improvement in the individual and not all inclusiveness for the weak. What you propose is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
    Bicycles don't have motors.

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    miles I was a five time college national wrestling champion. I also placed 2nd in the Northern California high school championships. When I went to college I had the good luck to wrestle the northern, central and southern California high school champions who won in 1967. I beat all three of them, so I guess you can say I gained a higher skill level than they did since they never beat me.

    I never competed in the Olympics because I wasn’t good enough and I wanted to spend my time working so I could retire at 45. That goal didn’t work so I retired at 50.

    I understand the whole getting better thing, but just because you don’t become a 5%’er at mountain biking doesn’t mean you can’t be a good provider for yourself and maybe a family.

  97. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    miles I was a five time college national wrestling champion. I also placed 2nd in the Northern California high school championships. When I went to college I had the good luck to wrestle the northern, central and southern California high school champions who won in 1967. I beat all three of them, so I guess you can say I gained a higher skill level than they did since they never beat me.

    I never competed in the Olympics because I wasn’t good enough and I wanted to spend my time working so I could retire at 45. That goal didn’t work so I retired at 50.

    I understand the whole getting better thing, but just because you don’t become a 5%’er at mountain biking doesn’t mean you can’t be a good provider for yourself and maybe a family.
    What the......

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    Five time National Champ!! WOW!! You really are unbelievable! Five championships in four years of eligibility is amazing!

    When I was in college I won two national championships and defeated the Swedish gold medal team. Of course that was in 1984 and they won gold in 1948 but we still kicked a$$!!

    I understand you need to continue to be valid but each time you post you impugn your integrity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Five time National Champ!! WOW!! You really are unbelievable! Five championships in four years of eligibility is amazing!

    When I was in college I won two national championships and defeated the Swedish gold medal team. Of course that was in 1984 and they won gold in 1948 but we still kicked a$$!!

    I understand you need to continue to be valid but each time you post you impugn your integrity.
    miles in 1968, 1969, 1970 & 1971 there were two divisions, right? Division l and Division ll, right? In 1968 college freshman were eligible to compete in the national wrestling championships, right? If you went to a Division ll college you had to place in the top four to participate in the Division l tournament. Your right, I could have been an eight time National Wrestling Champion but because I was lesser skilled I only placed five times.

    I actually thought I had done OK, but you obviously don’t think so. Can you please tell me where I lied. I know I told MTBR viewers that I had done that B Line on the Thunder Mt Reroute Trail but that was to prove the hate that the 5%’ers have against ME doing a trail improvement to provide me a better user experience. Do you have the same hate towards the USFS having done that improvement rather than me, when they determined the A Line was too difficult for the majority of the users?

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    I wrestled a beer out of the cooler tonight after the ride and made the B line to the chair since it was part of the PROCESS. It tasted Trumptastic

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    By mnigro in forum Brake Time
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-30-2010, 11:44 PM

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