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Thread: insurance

  1. #1
    The Voice of Reason
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    insurance

    this may be the wrong forum but we get our club insurance through imba's recommended mackay insurance company. did the price go up? wasn't it $200 last year? this year it's a $300 minimum.
    I'm never gonna be a Rock Star

  2. #2
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    how many members do you have? I thought it was $20 for >50?

    eep, we haven't gotten our notice yet for our renewal...

  3. #3
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    i think it was $1.71 per member but a $300 minimum. we've only got about 50 members. are you using mckay insurance? are there options?
    I'm never gonna be a Rock Star

  4. #4
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    $300 ish last year for us.

    hope it doesn't go up.

  5. #5
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    It's based on club size, we get the small organization rate. Or did. ??

  6. #6
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    "However, it was necessary to implement a SMALLincrease this year."
    Since when is 50% small? They did raise the number of members covered though??
    For event coverage the participant level covered has dropped so there is an increase there too.

  7. #7
    featherweight clydesdale
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megashnauzer
    this may be the wrong forum but we get our club insurance through imba's recommended mackay insurance company. did the price go up? wasn't it $200 last year? this year it's a $300 minimum.
    Yup, $300 min. Don't matter if you only have 50 members.

    The FAQ sheet also includes some verbage on trail designing not being covered and needing some kind of profesional insurance such as that of an architect or engineer. I called McKay on that point. It seems as long as you're working in a volunteer capacity with a land manager like parks and rec or the forest service, you're okay. Apparently some clubs have started a mini version of IMBA's professional Trail Solutions Crew, charging money and funneling that back to the club. That level of "designing" isn't covered.

  8. #8
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    that's $5.75 per member out of the $20 we charge to be in the club. 29%. i haven't paid it yet. i'm gonna bring it up to the board members. is there a way to completely remove yourself from liability? 'be a club member at your own peril'?
    I'm never gonna be a Rock Star

  9. #9
    horseman
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    insurance coverage

    I am beginning the start of a multi-use trail network here in southern Vt. There is a stae organization for mountainbikers, that has insurance. It would appear that IMBA has some kind of coverage. I have e-mailed the two organizations to explain how it is "supposed to work". If we create a local VMBA chapter, are we "supposed" to join IMBA as well?
    How do you folks explain who's covered to your land owners? There is a great program in the Northeast Kingdom (a section of Vermont) called the Kingdom Trails ( kingdomtrails.org ) and they have established a trail network where folks come from all over to ride. I believe what they are purchasing, in effect, is a one day membership, akin to a 1 day amateur license for racing. In that way they belong to the association and benefits are extended to the member for that day. Are trails your groups work on/share open to the "public"? We have landowner liability protection laws in Vermont, but VMBA has a landowner protection fund set aside to help defend the landowner in the event of a suit. It is similar to the kind of "protection" offered by the state snowmobile association. How does insurance work for you folks?

  10. #10
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    Here are some notes I made from a conversation with Mackay maybe last year?

    Our members do sign an annual waiver with thier membership. But, that wouldn't cover the organization. IANAL and all that.

    Mackay Insurance clarification:

    Non-members are considered volunteers and are not covered for anything, period.

    Example: member and non member are working on a project with an incident.

    Member’s medical is covered. Lawsuit against member is covered.
    Club is covered in event of a lawsuit.

    Volunteer has no coverage, not for medical, or liability, but their homeowner’s or personal medical would be used if they have it.

    If club wants to create corporate memberships, club can make determination of how members are allowed. Example, one corporate membership gives 5 shop employees benefits.

  11. #11
    horseman
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    apples & oranges

    I guess I'm mixing the concept of "insurance coverage" up a little. I thought that the insurance you folks were discussing had more to do with hepling protect the landowner against/asssist in defending a suit resulting from someone using their land. It sounds like you folks are making insurance available to the users/club members to reassure the landowner that someone from your club will be covered in the event that they sustain an injury while working or riding on the landowners property(?). Check out the VMBA site and you'll see where a fund has been set aside to reassure the landowner that they VMBA will contribute to their defense of any claim made to the4 landowner as a result of someone getting injured while negotiating a trail on their property. Do land owners think that only club members will be using the trails? What about folks that get a hold of a map and go out on their own? Up @ Kingdom Trails, flks seem to know that they should/need to obtain a "pass" before they head out. They seem to recognize that their "mem0bership fee" goes toward maintainance, etc..., and that these trails exist as a result of a respected partnership between the landowners ans the users. Apparently, behavior reflects a desire to continue to maintain that good relationship.

  12. #12
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    the insurance i'm talking about protects the club from lawsuits from club members or the general public getting hurt on our trails from either something we did or neglected to do. the land owner is already protected from lawsuits because of that recreational use thing. there's more to it than that but that's the basics. insurance talk kinda fogs my mind.
    I'm never gonna be a Rock Star

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megashnauzer
    the insurance i'm talking about protects the club from lawsuits from club members or the general public getting hurt on our trails from either something we did or neglected to do. the land owner is already protected from lawsuits because of that recreational use thing. there's more to it than that but that's the basics. insurance talk kinda fogs my mind.
    That is about how I understand it too. Recreational statues that protect landowners do vary from state to state.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megashnauzer
    the land owner is already protected from lawsuits because of that recreational use thing. there's more to it than that but that's the basics. insurance talk kinda fogs my mind.
    Sure recreational use stautes typically release landowners from liablity if someone get hurts on their property, but it doesn't prevent someone from trying to sue them and incuring laywer and court fees as a result of the lawsuit. At least this is how I understand it for NY.

    This is starting to get a little off topic but, I really like the idea of having a separate fund to support land owners in the event of a lawsuit. Around here (upstate NY,Albany area) it seams like most private landowners don't understand the Rec use statue, and aren't willing to allow access to their property in fear of being sued. Even if they understand that they are not liable, the risk of being sued and having to hire a lawer isn't worth allowing people on their land. Having a separate fund specifically for this purpose could really be leveraged to open more access. Hmmm? This has got me thinking...

    BTW, Kingdom Trails rocks!!!
    Those guys really do a great job maintaining trail access on private land.

  15. #15
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    Might be wise to switch to the League of American Bicyclists for their insurance, starts at $83.

  16. #16
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    Does anybody have experience with the League of American Bicyclists? Are they "cool" like IMBA, or more like "Greenpeace on Wheels"? Are they "open" to MTB clubs or are they road oriented? I really like McKay, but $83 min. (+$55 affiliation fee) is a substantial savings over the $300 min. charge for a small club such as ours.

    Dan
    www.nomambo.com

  17. #17
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    Nevermind. Appearently, the LAB coverage really doesn't apply to an MTB club. Here's a response I just received from McKay insurance asking why there was such a large cost difference:

    The LAB policy does not cover trail maintenance and upkeep. Second, it is designed for road clubs and their exposures. Third, you would not be able to access our agency for information and services on risk management and special events.
    The LAB policy was considered a competitor for many years (back in the early 90’s) however, it really does not do the job for a mountain bicycling club.
    Please let us know if you have any questions or if we can be of further service.
    Bestregards,
    Dan McKay
    Certified Insurance Counselor
    McKay Insurance Agency, Inc.

  18. #18
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    thanks for the update

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildskycomet
    I guess I'm mixing the concept of "insurance coverage" up a little. I thought that the insurance you folks were discussing had more to do with hepling protect the landowner against/asssist in defending a suit resulting from someone using their land. It sounds like you folks are making insurance available to the users/club members to reassure the landowner that someone from your club will be covered in the event that they sustain an injury while working or riding on the landowners property(?). Check out the VMBA site and you'll see where a fund has been set aside to reassure the landowner that they VMBA will contribute to their defense of any claim made to the4 landowner as a result of someone getting injured while negotiating a trail on their property. Do land owners think that only club members will be using the trails? What about folks that get a hold of a map and go out on their own? Up @ Kingdom Trails, flks seem to know that they should/need to obtain a "pass" before they head out. They seem to recognize that their "mem0bership fee" goes toward maintainance, etc..., and that these trails exist as a result of a respected partnership between the landowners ans the users. Apparently, behavior reflects a desire to continue to maintain that good relationship.
    So, I'm late to the party but am going to throw my 2 cents in. I sit on the board of VMBA (VT group) and work with the local chapter. As a chapter of VMBA, we are affiliated to IMBA. Our chapter chooses to go ahead and pay dues to IMBA as well. They have had thier trail care crew here a few times and they support a lot of what we are up to. It's only money.

    My understanding of the McKay insurance is 1) to protect the club from lawsuits due to trail work. 2) Protecting from lawsuit if someone gets hurt while doing trail work or on a club sponsored ride.

    The Landowner support fund (LSF) we started was mostly to calm the fears of landowners. The VT statue dealing with landowner liability covers them, but they may still have to come up with a lawyer to defend themselves, hence the LSF. We also have a few lawyers that are either riders or used to be that we can lean on should we need so as not to have to get into the fund. The intention of the fund is to build it to a substantial amount and never have to use it.

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