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  1. #1
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    IMBA Trail Solutions Video

    Shoulda stuck with just doing advocacy...

    Hitler learns his staff has hired IMBA Trail Solutions - YouTube
    If more people rode more bikes, more places, more often, the world would be a more better place!

  2. #2
    YRG
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    Awesome!
    Love it!

  3. #3
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    There is an ironic double meaning you may have missed here.

  4. #4
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by aero901 View Post
    There is an ironic double meaning you may have missed here.
    Pretty sure that a double digit IQ could find the Irony of Hitler calling Trail Solutions Nazis.

  5. #5
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    Then it must take at least a triple digit IQ to realize what I was actually referring to. The video shows those shouting the loudest about "sanitized" trails depicted as Hitler; the most Nazi of all Nazis.

  6. #6
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    Meaning-schmeaning. I loved it.
    I don't rattle.

  7. #7
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  8. #8
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    I disagree with the suggestion that Godwin's Law applies here. That reference relies upon an inappropriate usage of Nazi or Nazis which is used like a race card, a slap, a death blow. The kick here is not necessarily who is the Nazi but that Nazi are used to represent an absolute point of view; that is what makes it comic.

    What makes this even more poignant is the evolution that the main character goes through in working to an understanding which makes Godwin's law even less applicable.
    I don't rattle.

  9. #9
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    I liked it too and it made me chuckle, but don't necessarily agree with it. Trail solutions hasn't built anything in my neck of the woods (Santa Cruz/Bay Area) but from what I have seen and heard lately they have been building some very cool trails. Around here the beginner friendly, non-technical, low grade stuff is what is missing (we have plenty of steep legacy logging/ranching routes that have become our multi-use trail network). Rerouting/rebuilding unsustainable eroded fall line stuff will happen more and more as land managers are more conscious about sediment runoff from the lands they manage and trail use increases as mountain biking becomes more and more popular. It is pretty ridiculous to blame Trail Solutions for this trend. I'd rather have trail solutions operator on the SWECO to do a reroute in our local parks than the state park maintenance guy who grades the fire roads. Trail solutions probably grew out of the fact that 15 years ago there were very few if any mountain bike oriented trail contractors and they saw the need. Now there is a lot more folks out there doing it (many seem to be former IMBA folks). I could see how other contractors could be upset with IMBA using trailbuilding fund monies to subsidize the Trail Solutions crews. However, our local club had a subsidized visit from a Trail Solutions staff member to help with some design and layout training when we were starting design of our first new trail and we appreciated the discounted service and that benefited us. Is that a bad thing?

    I could see people complaining about work done on Trail Care Crew days. In my experience having hosted one and participated in a couple, they are usually hastily planned trails built or modified by lots of inexperienced volunteers with over simplified training (by necessity) and not enough supervision. Tough situation to get super high quality work out of but a good starting point for developing interest and at least having people think a little bit about how water flows down trails. I'd say 96% of mountain bikers don't even notice. Most of our best volunteers didn't really do trailwork until the TCC event we had a few years ago, so again even if the work we did wasn't great it was the catalyst for our club growing it's trail building capability.

    I don't agree with everything IMBA does but I don't see anyone else filling the role they fill in the advocacy community. Mountain bike advocacy will always be a local thing done by local people and anyone who expects IMBA do to much directly in their neck of the woods with the small staff and budget they have need to realign their expectations. Support them but also tell them how you feel, and don't be upset when they don't do exactly what you want, they still are making being a mountain biker better in my opinion even if they really don't help us directly at all.

  10. #10
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    drew p, you nailed it.

    PS. That video was stupid.
    Last edited by cjohnson; 11-16-2013 at 03:06 PM. Reason: more

  11. #11
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    IMBA Trail Solutions Video

    Quote Originally Posted by drew p View Post
    I don't agree with everything IMBA does but I don't see anyone else filling the role they fill in the advocacy community. Mountain bike advocacy will always be a local thing done by local people and anyone who expects IMBA do to much directly in their neck of the woods with the small staff and budget they have need to realign their expectations. Support them but also tell them how you feel, and don't be upset when they don't do exactly what you want, they still are making being a mountain biker better in my opinion even if they really don't help us directly at all.
    There has been a lot of chatter about IMBA over the last week or so, which I've followed without inserting myself into. I'm in total agreement with this - well put.
    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

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  12. #12
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    Without IMBA we would all be riding eroded horse/atv trails. If you like eroded trails go ride down the power line trails made by ATVs, I am sure there are some near where you live. There is a trail like that 200 yards from my house and I have ridden down it once. Keep up the good work IMBA.

    Video was funny however.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteuga View Post
    Without IMBA we would all be riding eroded horse/atv trails. If you like eroded trails go ride down the power line trails made by ATVs, I am sure there are some near where you live. There is a trail like that 200 yards from my house and I have ridden down it once. Keep up the good work IMBA.

    Video was funny however.
    That's a pretty blanket statement. I personally have built over 50 miles of well designed, legal, sustainable and fun singletrack. All without any help or input from IMBA. Last summer I had the opportunity to ride a trail I built 45 years ago. It's part of a much larger system that I advocated and it's in as good shape now as the day I built it.

    I'm not slamming IMBA because I've never had any dealings with them. Just saying that trails can be advocated and built without them. That being said, I can't imagine that having a large voice like IMBA can be a bad thing for mountain biking in general. I'd be happy to throw them the $35 or whatever it costs for a membership even if I never rode anything they were involved with.
    I have a device that can access the total knowledge of man. I use it to look at pictures of cats and argue with strangers.

  14. #14
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    Like drew p sez; "made me chuckle". (but the first time around Hitler with 42% Maker's Mark made me laugh)

    In drawing comparisons I don't see much a connection to IMBA being "trail nazis"; those BetterRide sympathizers are more like the fascist instigators of that period IMHO. ("It's OK to build rogue trails" = "It's OK to break the windows of Jewish businesses")

    I'm not a big fan of IMBA either; but it's the best we got.

    If anything about IMBA is fascist it's more like PM Neville Chamberlain and his "Peace for our time" debacle. (I don't like some of the alliances they've made)

    IMBA needs to find a Winston Churchill to steer the ship...
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  15. #15
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    There are many well intended trail builders that would love to build the best trail they can. IMBA just provides knowledge about erosion. There is no need for each of these builders to try and reinvent the wheel when it comes to erosion. I 1-2 day IMBA trail class can save that builder lots of heartache down the road, I know they have for me. You can still be creative in what is built.

    Grade Reversal
    Half Rule
    Out slope
    Mineral Soil
    Clinometer

    All I am saying is that IMBA teaches this and they are very powerful things to know that the well intended uneducated builder will know nothing about.

  16. #16
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    the trail I am involved with was negotiated, planned and built within a National Forest with zero direct IMBA assistance. I imagine that is mostly how it must be done. IMBA's value to us was the storehouse of knowledge. I also speculate that many grievances against IMBA are from people who incorrectly assume IMBA will come in and do the heavy lifting for them.

    I also see many local trails described on the internet as "IMBA built or rerouted by IMBA" when I know for a fact IMBA had nothing to do with the construction of said trail. I can only assume these naive posters hear the phrase "IMBA guidelines" and assume IMBA dumbed down "their" trail.

    If IMBA could do one thing better it would be make an effort distinguishing between trails and trail work done directly by IMBA vs work completed by IMBA chapters and Affiliate clubs. This distinction would go a long way towards educating trail users who is actually building and changing the trails.

  17. #17
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    IMBA recently asked for stories about trail work. We have couple of good ones this year and thought of offering them as we really like our IMBA guy (it has nothing to do with IMBA.) We decided against it, though, as saw that IMBA would just get the cache even though they had nothing to do with our work.
    I don't rattle.

  18. #18
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    From my experiences I can that without IMBA and TS we can build better trails, more of them and build them to withstand all season riding in a forest that gets 100"+ of rain a year. Plus for each inch of rain the trail sees it also sees around a 1000 tire tracks too. I honestly don't think IMBA TS could even pull off what we are doing given what resources we are working with.
    Epic trails get built in the Northwest by epic people!

    Sustainable quality trails please.

  19. #19
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    Is it really the case that IMBA wants to steal the "cachet"? I've interacted with IMBA plenty as part of various local clubs in both CO and UT and I've never gotten the sense that they care about anything but 1) getting people to build good trails and keep good trails open, and 2) keeping money coming in so they can do it. Maybe people don't like #2 but the bottom line is that to keep the doors open, you've gotta have money coming in.

    If a local club gets a trail built without their help I'd think they'd be happy to share the story of the advocacy/design/building/maintenance/etc. Am I wrong?

    Maybe I'm just naive but I don't see IMBA as anything but what they say they are - there have certainly been times when I disagreed with their specific tactics or when I saw them fail at things and thought they could have done better - but I can't think of any organizations I agree with 100% of the time. To me, IMBA is an ally if you want them to be, or... nothing if you don't want them around.

    To me these posts saying "IMBA sucks because we built these awesome trails without them" are silly, because not every riding area has a well-organized, educated, dedicated crew of folks who can do everything from interact with local politicians to design trail to train crew leaders. If you don't need IMBA, that's awesome. But it doesn't mean nobody does.

    YMMV, obviously.

    -Walt
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  20. #20
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    I agree with Mr Walt. I get the sense this IMBA bashing is a tempest in a teapot created by a half dozen or so.

  21. #21
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    You know, with the time and energy you spent on that, you could have started work on a nice video to advertize your local club
    Veni Vidi Biki

    I came, I saw, I biked.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Is it really the case that IMBA wants to steal the "cachet"? I've interacted with IMBA plenty as part of various local clubs in both CO and UT and I've never gotten the sense that they care about anything but 1) getting people to build good trails and keep good trails open, and 2) keeping money coming in so they can do it. Maybe people don't like #2 but the bottom line is that to keep the doors open, you've gotta have money coming in.

    If a local club gets a trail built without their help I'd think they'd be happy to share the story of the advocacy/design/building/maintenance/etc. Am I wrong?

    Maybe I'm just naive but I don't see IMBA as anything but what they say they are - there have certainly been times when I disagreed with their specific tactics or when I saw them fail at things and thought they could have done better - but I can't think of any organizations I agree with 100% of the time. To me, IMBA is an ally if you want them to be, or... nothing if you don't want them around.

    To me these posts saying "IMBA sucks because we built these awesome trails without them" are silly, because not every riding area has a well-organized, educated, dedicated crew of folks who can do everything from interact with local politicians to design trail to train crew leaders. If you don't need IMBA, that's awesome. But it doesn't mean nobody does.

    YMMV, obviously.

    -Walt
    +1



    well said.
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
    http://www.sharingthepct.org/
    http://www.facebook.com/SharingThePct

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    IMBA recently asked for stories about trail work. We have couple of good ones this year and thought of offering them as we really like our IMBA guy (it has nothing to do with IMBA.) We decided against it, though, as saw that IMBA would just get the cache even though they had nothing to do with our work.
    Okay, we get it: you're not a fan. It seems you certainly feel the need to mark your territory, protect your turf.

    Since you seem to have moved on from IMBA, why keep responding negatively in these threads?
    Everything that kills me, makes me feel alive

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glide the Clyde View Post
    Okay, we get it: you're not a fan. It seems you certainly feel the need to mark your territory, protect your turf.

    Since you seem to have moved on from IMBA, why keep responding negatively in these threads?



    What? No voice of dissension is allowed? Only the party line shall be spoken? What are you so afraid of? The IMBA is far from the last and final word.

  25. #25
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    Nobody is asking you not to dissent. We're just pointing out that constantly whining about IMBA and then saying that you don't need IMBA in your local area makes no sense. If you don't need them and don't interact with them, why all the angst? Why reply at all? Why post (very, very old) viral Hitler videos and/or incoherent rants?

    Seriously - I don't get it. What is the specific thing or things that people want IMBA to do (or not do)? After all these posts I still do not understand what any of the IMBA critics actually want. Can someone post a short/understandable list of demands or grievances?

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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