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Thread: IMBA or STC

  1. #1
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    IMBA or STC

    I just read the two opinion pieces, so here are my questions:

    How many legal trails or miles of legal trail has IMBA opened in Southern California (where I live and ride). Of that, how much is (a) single track, (2) dirt fire road, (3) paved?

    How many legal trails or miles of legal trail that was actually slated for closure, has IMBA kept from being closed in Southern California?

    How many legal single track trails or miles of legal single track trail has IMBA prevented from being turned into roads in Southern California?

    i will withhold further comment until I know the answers.

  2. #2
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    Zero. Blanket answer.
    How will you know you cant if you don't try?

  3. #3
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    Both.

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    They are one in the same.

    As I stated in one of the opinion pieces, you should not vote for one thing out of spite for another. It's irrational thinking, which is part of the reason we are in this situation in the first place.

  5. #5
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    I have a long and complicated reply to this.

    Trail Cast ? Rant On Ep 12 ? MBR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I have a long and complicated reply to this.

    Trail Cast ? Rant On Ep 12 ? MBR
    That was great, thank you.
    You made very good points about supporting both sides. Although I believe we need a stronger voice (such as the STC), I may have to renew my IMBA as well.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    That was great, thank you.
    You made very good points about supporting both sides. Although I believe we need a stronger voice (such as the STC), I may have to renew my IMBA as well.
    Thank you. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just huffing too many old-tire-air fumes and have it all wrong. But I honestly think the cycling community as a whole needs to come together and consider how and why these decisions get made in our country, and I hope this helps. It's time they quit stealing our trails.

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    Challenges

    The challenge 1: For some reason the mountain bike community expects IMBA to be the One mountain biking advocacy group but individuals (or small subsets of the mountain bike community) expect IMBA to advocate exactly the way they want.

    Example:
    Trail Difficulty: Some mountain bikers feel that trails on public land should be accessible by as much of the public as possible. So they don't join IMBA because their local IMBA chapter built an expert level trail. Others don't join IMBA because they feel mountain biking dies a little bit every time an beginner trail is built.

    The problem is that if mountain bikers don't join the one mountain bike advocacy group, because IMBA isn't 100% in line with their expectations, then the One Advocacy Group is going to be too weak to be successful.

    It is easier for the Sustainable Trails Coalition to make there donors happy, because they are not appealing to mountain bikers as whole. They are appealing to the subset of mountain bikers that want access to Wilderness. (Note this subset of mountain bikers increased significantly with the loss of trails due to the White Cloud's Wilderness).

    Challenge 2: Chicken or the egg. It seems that many mountain bikers don't want to support IMBA because "IMBA hasn't done anything for them". If every mountain biker joined IMBA, then IMBA would have the funding to put more staff on the ground and be successful in more local places around the country.

    Challenge 3. Not fighting hard enough. In 2014 IMBA's revenue was $4,824,996. Seems like a lot. But Sierra Club's Income was $62,137,742. And at the end of 2014 IMBA had assets of $662,139 while Sierra Club had assets of $89,083,409.

    Membership
    IMBA 35,000+
    Sierra Club 2.4 Million

    This is like sending the Freshman football team to play a varsity opponent and complaining the coaching staff isn't winning because they aren't calling aggressive enough plays.

    Challenge 4: Mountain Biker are politically disengaged: Some of this I blame on our current political system. Kind of hard to get engaged when all your choices are bad. But our opponents are much more engaged. If you look at the numbers at public meetings, you would think 1/2 the population hates mountain biking. While voting is important, what is more impactful, is to be engaged in the election process. How many mountain bikes contact there City Council, State/Federal Legislates, Governor, or Mayoral candidates during the election process?

    Challenge 5: Too much success: How does a small underfunded politically detached group succeed in getting more trails on the ground. Well the one thing we have done well is to put boots on the ground building trails. But as we build more and more trails it becomes harder and harder to get new riders to volunteer. They have lots of trails to ride and never had to build them. They just expect or assume that the park built them. More and more I hear mountain bikers, who I have never seen at a volunteer day, boast about the volunteerism of mountain bikers.

    I have already gone longer than I intended. But advocacy inherently is hard and complicated. The bottom line is that if you want to move the ball forward for mountain biking, then you need to join. I don't care if you join an IMBA or non IMBA advocacy group, but make sure you are counted amount those supporting mountain biking overall. While donating to STC doesn't count as joining (they don't have members, just donors), if access to Wilderness is important to you then donate to them. Just keep in mind that if we gain access to Wilderness at the expense of our advocacy groups, then we will not be in a position to take advantage of the Political win. Then in addition to joining, do what you can to move the ball forward: Dig, fund raise, contact you legislators, get new people into the sport, etc....

  9. #9
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    ^ Great post.

  10. #10
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    Repost from a different thread....

    My opinion: It's foolish not to support both organizations. Reason?

    1) STC is fighting for reasonable access to wilderness. It is a fight worth fighting, and worthy of our support, but in no way is it the basket where all or most of our eggs should be put. I think it's great that STC has come around to take up this issue (since this is a fight that will require a massive expenditure of resources and political capital), so...
    2) IMBA can put their/our limited resources toward more winnable battles and partnerships without harming existing relationships with this contentious battle, because..
    3) IF in 10 years STC wins this battle, IMBA will have in place successful partnerships with USFS etc. to open up appropriate wilderness trails to bikes.

    My organization uses our IMBA affiliation to our advantage in discussions with private, county, city and federal partners. The name carries some weight with those partners, like it or not. IMBA does not do anything directly for us in these discussions, because frankly we don't need anything beyond their name and the occasional presence of the rep at a meeting. However, there are larger, long-term federal land use discussions going on in our area, and when I informed our IMBA rep, IMBA was right in the middle of it in a useful way. They have come through for us in the past, big time.

    IMO, IMBA does not "do stuff" for you. The reps are spread too thin. They do provide backing support to lend legitimacy to our cause, and they lend legitimacy because of years of work with land managers but y'all still need to do the heavy lifting. It's a good thing. We need IMBA. We need STC. Support them both - every ounce of energy these two organizations, or supporters of these two organizations spend infighting is an ounce of energy that could have been spent on advocacy.

    There are more reasons, just want to keep things to a reasonable length.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    ^ Great post.
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  12. #12
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    In the East Bay nearly 85% of riding is done in the EBRPD near where riders live. (The rest of the time other rides are destinations like Annadel, Skeggs, Tamarancho, Skyline....)

    What group effects the trails that you ride most or would like to ride that are now closed to your regular riding? In the East Bay it is the BTCEB.

    IMBA does NOTHING for these venues except to show up for photo ops and wring their hands at the problem with scofflaws. They made this decision years ago when they decided that there were no success possible here. Since then they have done the vast bulk of their work out of state with California money.

    Are you supporting them?

    The BTC are the people who are doing the heavy lifting and their credibility is enhanced when they say that they represent significant numbers of riders (read open space users.) Who got more narrow trails open in Pleasanton Ridge? Who got Crockett Hills developed? Who keeps Joaquin Miller, the most intensely used trails in the area, a great place to ride?

    Are you supporting the BTC?

    Current discussions re access to EBMUD lands run into figures of 2000+ hikers and equestrians who use the land. The local advocacy group, the BTC, cannot boast such membership numbers. Why not? Yet who is doing the heavy lifting there?

    Same goes for representing at the EBRPD.

    Whats up with dat?
    I don't rattle.

  13. #13
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    Let me refine my original questions:

    How many legal trails or miles of legal trail has any advocacy group opened in Southern California (where I live and ride). Of that, how much is (a) single track, (2) dirt fire road, (3) paved?

    How many legal trails or miles of legal trail that was actually slated for closure, has any advocacy group kept from being closed in Southern California?

    How many legal single track trails or miles of legal single track trail has any advocacy group prevented from being turned into roads in Southern California?

    Digging and maintaining trails is important and an organization that does so deserves support. But what trails have they prevented from being closed and what closed trails have been opened

    If Southern California or all of California is a lost cause. I can live with that. But, I want someone to say so and to say that as a result, efforts are being put where there is a chance of success.

    I will defer further comment.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=Berkeley Mike;12396100]In the East Bay nearly 85% of riding is done in the EBRPD near where riders live. (The rest of the time other rides are destinations like Annadel, Skeggs, Tamarancho, Skyline....)

    What group effects the trails that you ride most or would like to ride that are now closed to your regular riding? In the East Bay it is the BTCEB.

    IMBA does NOTHING for these venues except to show up for photo ops and wring their hands at the problem with scofflaws........

    BTCEB is a chapter of IMBA. In fact they claim to be the founders of IMBA. A quick internet serch turned up 59 IMBA afiliates in cali. so they might not be doing enough but they aren't doing NOTHING.

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE=Kliemann53;12396991]
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    In the East Bay nearly 85% of riding is done in the EBRPD near where riders live. (The rest of the time other rides are destinations like Annadel, Skeggs, Tamarancho, Skyline....)

    What group effects the trails that you ride most or would like to ride that are now closed to your regular riding? In the East Bay it is the BTCEB.

    IMBA does NOTHING for these venues except to show up for photo ops and wring their hands at the problem with scofflaws........

    BTCEB is a chapter of IMBA. In fact they claim to be the founders of IMBA. A quick internet serch turned up 59 IMBA afiliates in cali. so they might not be doing enough but they aren't doing NOTHING.

    I am a former President of the Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay. BTCEB is not a Chapter of IMBA. It is, however, one of the last remaining original founders of IMBA, the others having folded their tents after years of hard work and lack of support during which IMBA was absent.

    BTCEB, along with defunct Marin Trails Council also founded NorCamba in 2004 to represent NorCal which after 2.5 years and many thousand of dollars and man-hours, was co-opted by IMBA who swept into an already formed group to become IMBA Norcal. This left us at a historic low. Now, 10 years and much effort later, we are healthy and strong again, no thanks to IMBA.

    In 2013 IMBA pulled together the Bay Area groups to try and create a Bay Area chapter. We started IMBA, funded it, and they left the state to work everywhere else but here. Now that things are moving because we worked so hard, they wanted back in. It was a clear power and money grab and everyone saw it for what it was worth.

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  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=Berkeley Mike;12398021]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kliemann53 View Post


    I am a former President of the Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay. BTCEB is not a Chapter of IMBA. It is, however, one of the last remaining original founders of IMBA, the others having folded their tents after years of hard work and lack of support during which IMBA was absent.

    BTCEB, along with defunct Marin Trails Council also founded NorCamba in 2004 to represent NorCal which after 2.5 years and many thousand of dollars and man-hours, was co-opted by IMBA who swept into an already formed group to become IMBA Norcal. This left us at a historic low. Now, 10 years and much effort later, we are healthy and strong again, no thanks to IMBA.

    In 2013 IMBA pulled together the Bay Area groups to try and create a Bay Area chapter. We started IMBA, funded it, and they left the state to work everywhere else but here. Now that things are moving because we worked so hard, they wanted back in. It was a clear power and money grab and everyone saw it for what it was worth.

    Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.
    So what your telling me is they are useing IMBA's name and programs(bike patrol) to attract membership fees but thats not where the money is going? Pretty sure there's laws agianst that.

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    BTC is an IMBA dues paying member. Keep in mind that it predates IMBA, was a founder of the bike patrol, and led both adult and youth riding programs before IMBA. In addition, the BTC sponsors NorCal High School cycling to the tune of $3000 per year, not the "partnering" spin for support used by IMBA.

    As a further clarification the BTC does not use IMBA, nor its devices, to attract members. Keep in mind that we do support IMBA; we are all in this together. Our jersey says that "we support IMBA" as opposed to being an IMBA-supported group. It is in small letters.

    It is just so important to those of us who are really doing the work to get credit for what is done in world where it is so easy for people to give IMBA credit.
    I don't rattle.

  18. #18
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    As a NorCal guy, I'm not too stoked on IMBA lately either, but oddly enough, if STC gets anywhere on this Wilderness stuff, I would have no problem with IMBA taking any credit they want, provided they assist in some public or even private capacity. I just don't want to see/read/hear about anymore IMBA reps actively opposing a reasonable effort to make things right. If I wanted to join the Sierra Club, I'd join the Sierra Club.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    BTC is an IMBA dues paying member. Keep in mind that it predates IMBA, was a founder of the bike patrol, and led both adult and youth riding programs before IMBA. In addition, the BTC sponsors NorCal High School cycling to the tune of $3000 per year, not the "partnering" spin for support used by IMBA.

    As a further clarification the BTC does not use IMBA, nor its devices, to attract members. Keep in mind that we do support IMBA; we are all in this together. Our jersey says that "we support IMBA" as opposed to being an IMBA-supported group. It is in small letters.

    It is just so important to those of us who are really doing the work to get credit for what is done in world where it is so easy for people to give IMBA credit.
    Thank you for the clarification.

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Kliemann53;12398664]
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post

    So what your telling me is they are useing IMBA's name and programs(bike patrol) to attract membership fees but thats not where the money is going? Pretty sure there's laws agianst that.
    With all due respect Kleimann, this isn't the first advocacy related related post where your facts have been a touch off. Maybe more reading before posting is in order.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    As a NorCal guy, I'm not too stoked on IMBA lately either, but oddly enough, if STC gets anywhere on this Wilderness stuff, I would have no problem with IMBA taking any credit they want, provided they assist in some public or even private capacity. I just don't want to see/read/hear about anymore IMBA reps actively opposing a reasonable effort to make things right. If I wanted to join the Sierra Club, I'd join the Sierra Club.
    Well said. I could see if IMBA didn't want to get publicly in with STC. Stuff like Ashley's oped (even if not currently on the board, IMBA was mentioned enough that it certainly seemed like their view - and Mark E hasn't disclaimed it) makes me think she's more Sierra Club than mtber.

  22. #22
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    [QUOTE=ACree;12400655]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kliemann53 View Post

    With all due respect Kleimann, this isn't the first advocacy related related post where your facts have been a touch off. Maybe more reading before posting is in order.
    Whats the other one?

  23. #23
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    [QUOTE=Kliemann53;12400716]
    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Whats the other one?
    Your choice of source for Wilderness facts comes to mind. There have been others as well but I'm not going to rehash your post history for you.

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    [QUOTE=ACree;12400720]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kliemann53 View Post

    Your choice of source for Wilderness facts comes to mind. There have been others as well but I'm not going to rehash your post history for you.
    You confirmed my source. Go read your own post.
    ....and stop stalking me, this is getting creepy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    Let me refine my original questions:

    How many legal trails or miles of legal trail has any advocacy group opened in Southern California (where I live and ride). Of that, how much is (a) single track, (2) dirt fire road, (3) paved?

    How many legal trails or miles of legal trail that was actually slated for closure, has any advocacy group kept from being closed in Southern California?

    How many legal single track trails or miles of legal single track trail has any advocacy group prevented from being turned into roads in Southern California?

    Digging and maintaining trails is important and an organization that does so deserves support. But what trails have they prevented from being closed and what closed trails have been opened

    If Southern California or all of California is a lost cause. I can live with that. But, I want someone to say so and to say that as a result, efforts are being put where there is a chance of success.

    I will defer further comment.
    Did you ever think about looking for this information yourself?

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