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  1. #1
    swag ho Administrator
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    Horses and Hikers Only.

    Is this the equivalent to a 'slap in the face' to a mountain biker?

    I've seen some trails like this and I thought they were mostly legacy and historical trails. But it it still seems to be the current mode of operation of Midpen and other trail groups.

    They tried to shove it in our face at the La Honda trail planning. We had a huge show of representation and they are reconsidering.

    But lately, I've been noticing and hiking a bit a the new Achistaca trail in Saratoga Gap http://www.openspace.org/preserves/m...ratoga_gap.pdf

    It's a pristine singletrack that is deserted and open to Horses and Hikers only.

    Also there's a lot of new small trails in Saratoga and they are all prominently labeled Horses and Hikers only.

    Why is that? How does this happen? What can we do? What are you going to do?

    fc
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  2. #2
    mtbr member
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    Discrimination against white bikes is NOT right. In the meantime get a different colored bike.

  3. #3
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    This is ridiculous. Mountain bikers, if allowed on trails, will provide much more volunteer trail maintenance than hikers and equestrians combined.

    If the whole "mountain bikers go too fast and scare me when I'm walking 4-abreast with my family" thing is the reason why MTB's aren't allowed, then MidPen could easily radar-enforce speeds. We know the rangers will be at the ready to ticket any bicyclist that attempts to enter those trails, might as well work together to weed out the speed demons and keep the trails maintained. Cooperation is the key to happiness.

    It's a crying shame how much singletrack is illegal for bicyclists.

    It's also a shame how land management groups hate to work with those who enjoy 2 wheeled recreation in order to create a better outdoor experience for all. In the end, none of us are on this planet very long, and excluding low-impact user groups (bicyclists) is a missed opportunity for the land management.

  4. #4
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    must mean it's a great bike trail!

  5. #5
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    i regularly ride off limits single track. ive NEVER seen a horse there (it wouldnt even be safe to ride a horse on this trail), and ive seen maybe 2 hikers in the 12 months ive been riding it..

    its shameful that riding a bicycle equates to committing crimes.

  6. #6
    56-year-old teenager
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    I suspect the reason Achistaca is off limits to bikes is that it doesn't connect at the other end to any trail that permits bikes.
    Work is the curse of the biking classes.

  7. #7
    my body breaks the falls
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    If you were in the East Bay you'd lobby against the passing a bond measure to purchase more land that could be used for the same exclusive purposes and then be called a malcontent for wanting equal access.
    $500 million for more irresponsible EBRPD land management? No thanks.
    www.noonmeasureww.org

  8. #8
    aka baycat
    Reputation: Ryan G.'s Avatar
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    Preaching to the choir. We all share the same sentiment I gather, unless people love riding fire roads.

    So when do we reach a critical point where we all disobey the white bike cruiser sign and poach in masses on weekends.

  9. #9
    Coors, the american beer.
    Reputation: Melt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Why is that? How does this happen? What can we do? What are you going to do?

    fc
    ride em anyways and hope we can outrun the ranger
    AZ has the best mountain bike gathering ever

  10. #10
    Birthday Collector
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    Or when do we just start to replace every no bike sign with one that says "No Horses allowed" or "No hikers" and see how long before people start to scream. I'll bet it would happen pretty fast. And then when the noise starts, we all collectively say "well - how did that make YOU feel when you saw that sign? I've felt that way for years. It sounds like someone is trying to make a statement". If we can just find some masked man who makes signs to go on a few night rampage and disappear, we might get something going...
    R.I.P. Corky 10/97-4/09
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  11. #11
    mtbr member
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    I have a different view of this trail and others like it.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    i regularly ride off limits single track. ive NEVER seen a horse there (it wouldnt even be safe to ride a horse on this trail), and ive seen maybe 2 hikers in the 12 months ive been riding it..
    I was running a narrow hillside single track with my dog one time, and came up against a horse. the horse literally took up the entire trail - the riders legs were brushing the vegetation on each side of the trail - absolutely no room to pass. I had to backtrack for a ways and then climb down off the side of the trail to let him by. Its absolutely ridiculous that a horse would be allowed on that trail. By the same token, hikers and bikes would not mix well on that trail. I can live with that, not every trail need be open to bikes. But the fact that a horse is allowed there... it just makes no sense to me.

  13. #13
    Paper or plastic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by twindaddy
    If you were in the East Bay you'd lobby against the passing a bond measure to purchase more land that could be used for the same exclusive purposes and then be called a malcontent for wanting equal access.
    Now you're just acting like a spoiled brat who wants to ride his bike everywhere without any regard for other users. [end of sarcasm]
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  14. #14
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melt
    ride em anyways and hope we can outrun the ranger
    That's what I say Too. 30 years I've lived and ridden here trying to be a responsible rider and be good and not poach. But no more. All bets are off and let the chips fall were they may.
    I try and be as covert as possible and if i get caught then I'll pay the fine do the time and wait for another time to start all over again.
    This is BS always has been and as far as I can see always will be.There is no short term solution
    I know alot of good people try really hard to get and keep ST open around here, but unfortunately it's not working.
    What about that peice O sh*t trail they, MMWD, were supposed to give us on the back 40 of Mt.Tam?
    "Oh don't talk about it or ride it illegally or we'll loose the chance to get it." What? NOTHING. There stringin us along and were buyin it. Literally. In stupid fines for going over 15mph and riding trails that hardly anyone uses or takes the time to maintain.Or want to keep to themselves.
    If you really want good LEGAL riding then leave the bay area, because it's gonna take forever and I/we can't all go to Fruita/Downieville when we want good ST.
    Take your chance
    Take your Lumps
    Pick your moments and for Gods sake enjoy the Adrenalin rush while your poachin .You are not hurting anything including your chance to get /keep Bay area ST and DON"T LET THE MAN RULE YOUR LIFE OR LIE TO YOU!!!
    I'm sure I'll take plenty of sh*t for this but everyones doin it and know ones talkin cause your not supposed to talk about it so pretend i didn't say anything. The Emperor has no clothes and the White Elephant has left the building.Jeez.
    Rant over.
    Long live Temalpa, Northside, PCT, Western States,TRT, Skeggs, Nora, Matt Davis,Troop 80, Skyline to Sea trail and all the other great trails around the Bay Area that are off limits and may have been poached by you or me one time or another.
    Good luck to all who take the risk and remember when you see or hear the man,RUN FORREST RUN!!!
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  15. #15
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    Out of curiosity, what's the average ticket for poaching non-bike trails?

  16. #16
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlasticBike
    Out of curiosity, what's the average ticket for poaching non-bike trails?
    In 2005, it cost me $187. I think it's now almost $300 (??). That's MROSD tickets. Have no idea what a SC County Park ticket is.

  17. #17
    bicycle rider
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    For want of a better analogy, it's always felt like "go to the back of the bus", for mountain bikers.

    I have a dream.

    Morgan

  18. #18
    aka baycat
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    Amen! +1,000,000. Temalpa makes me pucker.

  19. #19
    Resident Curmudgeon
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    Ok I'll bite on this one as I ride both Mt Bikes and Do endurance on horses

    The reason for that particular trail not being open to bikes is to provide a "safe" access for horses to hwy 9 and the Saratoga Toll Road trail which leads into Castle Rock and Big Basin State parks. It also keeps the horses off the Gap Trail that we all like to bomb down as we link the gap and long ridge. I can safely say all of you would be screaming bloody murder over horse poop and hoof print holes on the gap trail. The seperation also means the fire guys have way fewer bad horse/bike injury interactions to deal with and keeps bad Biker "press" away. We as bikers have the skills for the most part to deal with encountering someone head on while riding a hairpin. Most 1200 pound horses have the brain size of a walnut and react as prey animals when confronted by a strange on rushing creature...they bolt and most of the equestrian riders do not have the skill level to deal with it and get thrown. I'd rather not deal with the aftermath of it all. That said my horse rather enjoyed racing Mt Bikes down the trail [especially on Canyon Trail] but he was an exception not the rule

    Warning: Consumption of alcohol may make you think the person on the barstool next to you is attractive

  20. #20
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    I need to rant:
    My Wife is an equestrian. Her horse is trained to deal well with motorcycles.
    I hike, ride mountain bikes, ride motor bikes, and drive rockcrawlers(jeeps).

    Its ironic that the horses seem to be the ones with the problem in a MTB/horse encounter, but the trails get closed off to MTBs. I feel there is infinitely greater numbers of trails around here for horses than bikes. I have ridden horses on some of them.

    The trail access situation disgusts me. The problem is overcrowding and the solutions are retarded. Who would think that if you have an overcrowded trail you should close it off to the faster noisier group so that they can go make the crowding even worse somewhere else. The situation is completely out of control.

    The only place to legally drive a 4x4 within 3 hours of San Jose is Hollister.

    The only places to ride a motorcycle within 3 hours of here is Hollister, Carnagie, Metcalf and a couple of tracks.

    Clear Creek just got closed over a bunch of BS.

    In my opinion the only good legal mtb trails around here are in Demo. Everything else has to be poached. Luckily its really easy to poach with a MTB. Poaching with a motor usually doesn't work out so well.

    Every reasonable terrain feature that is built on a legal mtb trail promptly gets torn down. Ironically this is done in the interest of "safety". Because of the likelihood of destruction all these poached features get built quickly and cheaply which makes them more dangerous. Imagine how much safer the trails might be if there were table tops instead of doubles.

    The situation with power sports is so bad that virtually every bad accident i hear about is due to a collision which is due primarily to over crowding which is due to trail closures. A few weeks ago I came across 2 motorcyclists that ran into each other in a trail intersection. Last week an acquaintance of mine broke his leg in a 3way motorcycle crash(overcrowded track). Basically every holiday weekend someone dies in an OHV collision in CA. 20 years ago there was probably 10x more terrain to ride, and many fewer people in this state.

    Cant stand it any more.
    My rambling incoherent rant is over.
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  21. #21
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo
    That's what I say Too. 30 years I've lived and ridden here trying to be a responsible rider and be good and not poach. But no more. All bets are off and let the chips fall were they may.
    I try and be as covert as possible and if i get caught then I'll pay the fine do the time and wait for another time to start all over again.
    This is BS always has been and as far as I can see always will be.There is no short term solution
    I know alot of good people try really hard to get and keep ST open around here, but unfortunately it's not working.
    What about that peice O sh*t trail they, MMWD, were supposed to give us on the back 40 of Mt.Tam?
    "Oh don't talk about it or ride it illegally or we'll loose the chance to get it." What? NOTHING. There stringin us along and were buyin it. Literally. In stupid fines for going over 15mph and riding trails that hardly anyone uses or takes the time to maintain.Or want to keep to themselves.
    If you really want good LEGAL riding then leave the bay area, because it's gonna take forever and I/we can't all go to Fruita/Downieville when we want good ST.
    Take your chance
    Take your Lumps
    Pick your moments and for Gods sake enjoy the Adrenalin rush while your poachin .You are not hurting anything including your chance to get /keep Bay area ST and DON"T LET THE MAN RULE YOUR LIFE OR LIE TO YOU!!!
    I'm sure I'll take plenty of sh*t for this but everyones doin it and know ones talkin cause your not supposed to talk about it so pretend i didn't say anything. The Emperor has no clothes and the White Elephant has left the building.Jeez.
    Rant over.
    Long live Temalpa, Northside, PCT, Western States,TRT, Skeggs, Nora, Matt Davis,Troop 80, Skyline to Sea trail and all the other great trails around the Bay Area that are off limits and may have been poached by you or me one time or another.
    Good luck to all who take the risk and remember when you see or hear the man,RUN FORREST RUN!!!
    "They can take away our trails...but they can never take away our...FREEDOM!!!" Oops, I guess I got carried away. I just watched Braveheart
    "Time won't leave me as I am "

  22. #22
    Uncle
    Reputation: Entrenador's Avatar
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    Buzz Cut, thanks

    ... for the clarity. Always good to have a sensible voice, and especially from someone that stands in both of these user groups.

    Speaking from an East Bay rider's perspective, I think what bothers me most is that sheer number of cyclists on the trails seems to be no less than 10 for every horse & rider -- and I think that's very conservative. I don't have a problem with horses having access to trails, but it seems at times that there's really like two riders in the entire East Bay that take advantage of their trail access, and meanwhile, hundreds of us our spinning the same dull loops each day.

    It's a good idea to keep us separate on certain trails, agreed. But maybe the mileage of available trails should be proportionate to the number of users in each group, or at least closer to those proportions.
    Eat, ride, eat, rest, repeat.

  23. #23
    Die trying, not watching.
    Reputation: loomis's Avatar
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    Political Muscle Needed

    Want to prevent trail closures for MTBers? Want to open new trails? Join and support (that means $$ and time) IMBA and your local MTB club/advocacy group. Around here we are building new trails. When only the equestrians and hikers show up at hearings about trail access, guess what - we mountain bikers get screwed.
    Just get up again ...

  24. #24
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    i think the winds of change are a blowin'.....

    the mtn bike community is starting to become a political force to be dealt with. it has taken a long, long time but there are signs that we are starting to come together realizing that it is the only way to get some of what is fair in this area. i think what happened in the east bay around the bond measure and ebrpd board elections was a first tentative step in that direction.

    it totally sux that trail access is still so lopsided against the second largest (and likely fastest growing) user group, but the more we come together and voice ourselves in productive ways the more we will, over time, see changes made.

    as our group matures and comes together we become more powerful. it's just a very long road...but i have to be optimistic about something, and for today this is it!!

  25. #25
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    darkness seems to change the trail usage even more. don't see too many hikers or equestrians after dark on any trails. and heck at night, i don't even notice the red slash... all i see is a white bike sign... Love the way the mark the good trails....Go!!!

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