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  1. #1
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    E bikes on your trails?

    What do you folks think about sharing your favorite trails with E bikes?

    I Say "E-bike", You Say... - Sea Otter 2016 - Pinkbike

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    No thanks

  3. #3
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    To be perfectly honest, I think they look like a blast. I've only seen two on our local trails and I tried not to let it bother me. If I saw a bunch I don't think I'd like it. If I were to get one for myself I'd use it on OHV trails and on forest service roads, since I know people would object to me riding it on the bike trails.

    What worries me more is the concurrent push to allow bikes in Wilderness and, if permitted, how someone might try taking their e-bike out there.

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    Hell no!

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  6. #6
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    As of now...no motorized vehicles on any of my local trails.
    NTFTC

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    I don't own any trails, so anyone who is allowed is welcome to share them with me.
    Last edited by Capt.Ogg; 04-19-2016 at 07:38 AM.

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    I mountain bike for fitness and muscle cross training, on top of obviously being fun. So I know I would never use an e-bike as it would defeat the primary purpose of my riding.

    However, there is an equally large, if not larger, group of people that ride for the pure pleasure of it. So if an e-bike will allow them to get out and ride longer (which will still burn 'some' calories), and it doesn't compromise the integrity of the trails or endanger anyone on the trail? I am all for it.

    My concern is that these bikes are generally a lot heavier, and have a power source. So if a novice gets behind the bars of one of these and loses control of it, it has the potential to deal a lot more damage than even the heaviest of full suspension bikes. Since you likely won't see as many experienced mountain bikers changing over to e-bikes, the clientele is likely to primarily be amateurs and novice riders.

    A happy medium would be to put a speed limiter on the power assist to stop pedaling at about 5mph. (Whereas many of them are at 15mph) This allows them to primarily only assist the rider in climbing, where I would guess those using e-bikes want them. If a person wants to climb faster than 5mph? Well then you get to join the rest of the community and use your legs.

    Still, can't get away from gravity pulling that hoss down a trail at a much greater speed than a normal bike.

  9. #9
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    Nope, on the trails I ride, non-motorized = non-motorized. Doesn't matter how ya spin it (philosophically, pedals or thumb lever), a motor is a motor.
    One gear is all you need.

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    Non-motorized means no motor. Trails that aren't marked as such, have at it.... it's their choice to ride a weak motorcycle.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLx6 View Post
    What do you folks think about sharing your favorite trails with E bikes?

    I Say "E-bike", You Say... - Sea Otter 2016 - Pinkbike
    Wrong forum; check out the E-Bike forum for endless threads of the same sentiment.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  12. #12
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    I'd rather see ebikes on the trails instead of all of the suspension bikes. What's the difference? Guys who don't really ride are already going down trails at stupid speeds with their full suspension downhill bikes with no regard to other users.

    The only ebike I've seen on local trails was with a man who was 91 years old. The electric assist allowed him to be able to ride in the mountains where he hunted when he was younger.

    Shocks allow riders to go faster. Ebikes often allow people to be able to ride.

  13. #13
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    I could care less. I have never seen one (to date).
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    I don't care for them, but my opinion doesn't matter in the least. It's a growing market and they'll be all over the place eventually whether I like it or not.

    It's sort of like the candidate that you don't like winning the Presidency. You don't like it, but you still have to live with it.
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    They are rightly considered motorized vehicles here and are only allowed on moto friendly trails, I would prefer it to stay that way. I haven't seen any yet.

    I think they are great for transportation and communting, I'd seriously consider one for that if my commute was longer.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I'd rather see ebikes on the trails instead of all of the suspension bikes. What's the difference? Guys who don't really ride are already going down trails at stupid speeds with their full suspension downhill bikes with no regard to other users.

    The only ebike I've seen on local trails was with a man who was 91 years old. The electric assist allowed him to be able to ride in the mountains where he hunted when he was younger.

    Shocks allow riders to go faster. Ebikes often allow people to be able to ride.
    Ugg. Motorized or not. That is the difference.

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    Yup...
    ...me

    Although it has been really hard for me to see myself, I'll be sure to get a vid up soon!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Ugg. Motorized or not. That is the difference.
    That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.
    Wyoming? Like where there are no people? Nice. Full sus? Give me a break. Out of control riders, separate issues. Closed minded, not at all. Here in MA, no motorized vehicles allowed on trails. That is public parks and forests, state owned. They can ride where ORV's can go, very simple. Here we can not just ride anywhere, access is not a given at all, and still is a hard fought battle. I see e motorcycles getting ALL bikes banned on the trails I have done work on for the last 15 years. We will send all the e motorcycles out to your state. How's that wilderness stuff working out?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.
    All the fastest out of control riders here are on hardtails, most of the FS bikes are old guys with bad backs riding slow. We need to ban hardtails.

  21. #21
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    I was riding a 5 mile paved bicycle/walking path yesterday and noticed a No Motorized Vehicles sign at the entrance and wondered if that includes someone that is handicapped in a motorized wheel chair?

    I know people have been calling engines motors for years - "what motor do you have in that thing" when they're actually asking someone what engine is in their car, so the no motorized bicycles signs that have been around for thirty years and predates electric bicycles may really have meant No Engineized Bicycles - as there were bicycles with gas engines on them back then.

    If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.

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    CA has a Class 1 rating for e-bikes that supposedly allows them in the same areas as
    p-bikes, but seems like the courts may need to decide the issue. It's a joke to say
    e-bikes go downhill faster than p-bikes since most individuals descend at a rate they feel comfortable. E-bikes don't allow them to descend more rapidly, probably slower since they're more ponderous and difficult to handle.
    Interesting thing to me is that manufacturers are having difficulty pushing p-bikes and are trying to boost sales with e-bikes. Wonder how that's going to play out, but the haters could just start buying a slew of p-bikes and probably put e-bikes on the back burner for awhile.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.
    ADA motorized mobility devices are generally exempt anywhere in public spaces. I'm not sure you have to prove you are disabled, I doubt there's a rash of people using them inappropriately, so what's the point?

    E-bikes are not considered as part of that class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.

    I suppose one could argue semantics but for all practical purposes I think the words "engine" and "motor" are pretty much interchangeable.

    And as for motorized vehicles on trails, whether the motor is fed by electricity, petrol, coal, steam, or whatever else should be irrelevant IMHO.

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    I wonder if there is a market for an electric all-wheel drive three wheel mobility scooter with 20" fat tires for trail use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I suppose one could argue semantics but for all practical purposes I think the words "engine" and "motor" are pretty much interchangeable.

    And as for motorized vehicles on trails, whether the motor is fed by electricity, petrol, coal, steam, or whatever else should be irrelevant IMHO.
    It is all semantics, but I think it's shaking out that a "motor" is electric and an "engine" uses some sort of fuel such as diesels, ICEs, and rockets. I would not be surprised if the signs were all changed to "engineless vehicles" in another decade to reflect current usage and acceptance.

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    I realize that technically there is a difference but Webster says they're the same and that's good enough for me, and I suspect the law. For now anyway.

    And again, motorized or enginized should make zero difference as far as this topic goes.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I wonder if there is a market for an electric all-wheel drive three wheel mobility scooter with 20" fat tires for trail use?
    It'd be legal on pedestrian trails designed to be ADA accessible, otherwise no. Just like you can't ride a Segway or quad anywhere you like by claiming an ADA disability. Kind of limits the market.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    ADA motorized mobility devices are generally exempt anywhere in public spaces. I'm not sure you have to prove you are disabled, I doubt there's a rash of people using them inappropriately, so what's the point?

    E-bikes are not considered as part of that class.
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....
    again with the semantics - but I'll go with no motors, except wheelchairs.... if the path is meant to be handicap accessible. now if you want to argue that an e-bike can be seen as viable handicap transport, then you have an argument. you planning on getting a sticker to get legal?

  31. #31
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    I am just afraid that it is going to open the door for other, and more powerful motorbikes. Then there will be congestion and incidents that are normally avoided right now by that mixture of human power versus aided power I just think that the sanctity of some trails should remain.

    I already deal with some idiots on eBikes on our paved/multi-use trails around here. We already have enough ignorance and selfishness with non-motoriazed users of the multi-use trail....this just adds to the gauntlet

    I don't have a problem with the ebikes themselves. I would use one to commute if I thought it help my normal commute ride. I would NEVER use one on dirt trails b/c in my heart it is cheating...it goes against why i decide to ride bikes...but that is just me

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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....
    The ADA grants some far and wide rules for access for disabled folks needing access. My friend in a wheel chair goes everywhere. He has a Boma, 750(?) watts, 20" wheel front and 26" rear wheel quad mobility device. It rocks, needs some wider paths but can handle some steep grades too. He can ride that anywhere he wants. Not just on HP accessible areas. And does. I sometimes mt bike with him at the same time. Folks should do some reading up on this.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....
    It's pretty easy to understand, no motors unless they are specifically exempt.

    Again, specific ADA mobility devices (moto/non moto wheelchairs/scooters/walkers/canes) are allowed anywhere pedestrians are. Other motorized devices, like Segways, or ebikes that could also be used by a disabled person are not unless specified . This second, non traditional class of vehicles is regulated by the land manager and they decide what and how they can be used on their land.

    For example, JeffCo's policy is this: Jefferson County (CO) trail use Other Power Driven Mobility Devices

    In a nutshell, no trails over 12%, 5mph average speed, 10mph top speed. If this fits your riding style, and you're disabled, have at it.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    I am just afraid that it is going to open the door for other, and more powerful motorbikes. Then there will be congestion and incidents that are normally avoided right now by that mixture of human power versus aided power I just think that the sanctity of some trails should remain.

    I already deal with some idiots on eBikes on our paved/multi-use trails around here. We already have enough ignorance and selfishness with non-motoriazed users of the multi-use trail....this just adds to the gauntlet

    I don't have a problem with the ebikes themselves. I would use one to commute if I thought it help my normal commute ride. I would NEVER use one on dirt trails b/c in my heart it is cheating...it goes against why i decide to ride bikes...but that is just me

    Change is not always a good thing....
    On a serious note, I have no problems with e-bikes as they seem to be now, but do see the problems that could arise. It seems to me, limiting their weight, (to say 45 or so pounds) making sure they are peddle assist, (no throttle) and they are limited to 15 mph on the assist they should be fine. I realize there are also going to be enforcement issues, but I don't really think that should be the burden of the people that want to ride e-bikes..

    What may be an answer is limiting the speed to 15 or so mph period, even when peddling or going down hill. This would stop mountain e-bikes from becoming high performance and would allow enforcement officers to try the bike and if they can get it over the limit it is not allowed in.

    I do have sympathy for those that want e-bike as I have switched to mountain biking from dirt motorcycles mostly because 90% of all trails I use to dirt bike on have been closed. But I don't want unrestricted use of e-bikes to ruin mountain biking.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    again with the semantics - but I'll go with no motors, except wheelchairs.... if the path is meant to be handicap accessible. now if you want to argue that an e-bike can be seen as viable handicap transport, then you have an argument. you planning on getting a sticker to get legal?
    The last time I checked, my bike doesn't need a sticker.

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  36. #36
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    I like the no throttle idea...I think that would solve many issues. It would truly be pedal enhancing rather than pedal replacing.

    I also could not identify witht he weight of these things on dirt trails
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    Very easy to disable assist and go throttle...
    ...I wonder how many guys here have actually ridden an e- assist bike?

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    As well as disable or modify limiters.

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    Its a non issue pedal assist or thumb or twist its still limited low power and and one type over the other wont make anyone of them more powerful than the others. I hope I typed that slow enough

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Very easy to disable assist and go throttle...
    ...I wonder how many guys here have actually ridden an e- assist bike?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    As well as disable or modify limiters.
    So we should ban all e-bike because some people with e-bikes will break the law. We don't ban all cars or motorcycles because some people illegally modify them.

    I see on this forum people who argue vigorously against banning regular mountain bikes from areas where a few bikers illegally break new trails or illegally modify trails in parks. I don't see how this is any different.

    Rules should be made as reasonable as possible, and then they should be enforced as best as possible. To make rules or laws just to avoid having to enforce what is reasonable is not right. And just indicates the level of self-centered laziness this country had sunk to.

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    Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
    ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!

    Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Again, specific ADA mobility devices (moto/non moto wheelchairs/scooters/walkers/canes) are allowed anywhere pedestrians are. Other motorized devices, like Segways, or ebikes that could also be used by a disabled person are not unless specified . This second, non traditional class of vehicles is regulated by the land manager and they decide what and how they can be used on their land.

    Kind of...the LM must go through certain steps and document the reasons that a certain type of OPMD isn't allowed on certain trails. If this assessment has been done according to quite specific guidelines, a trail is by default open to any OPMD device a person chooses to use, right on up to an ATV. This applies to all public hiking trails, not just "handicapped accessible" one.

    Designated mountain bike trails do not fall under these guidelines though, so a LM can tell someone they are not allowed to take an OPMD on those, but they can't limit their access to hiking trails. So a disable person with an e-bike gets a blanket pass to hiking trails, but can be denied access to MTB trails, ironically enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
    ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!

    Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!
    Clearly all bikes are bad and we should just ban them outright. Nevermind that e-bikes are categorically different from pedal-powered bikes, that's irrelevant... The conversation is really about *****ing about whatever bike has pissed you off recently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Kind of...the LM must go through certain steps and document the reasons that a certain type of OPMD isn't allowed on certain trails. If this assessment has been done according to quite specific guidelines, a trail is by default open to any OPMD device a person chooses to use, right on up to an ATV. This applies to all public hiking trails, not just "handicapped accessible" one.

    Designated mountain bike trails do not fall under these guidelines though, so a LM can tell someone they are not allowed to take an OPMD on those, but they can't limit their access to hiking trails. So a disable person with an e-bike gets a blanket pass to hiking trails, but can be denied access to MTB trails, ironically enough.
    Some of the best descents (I suspect anyway) in my area are on hiking only trails... Maybe when I'm old and qualify as handicapped I'll get to vroom up to the top and bomb them finally!

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Rules should be made as reasonable as possible, and then they should be enforced as best as possible. To make rules or laws just to avoid having to enforce what is reasonable is not right. And just indicates the level of self-centered laziness this country had sunk to.
    Either intentionally, or unintentionally, the CA regs as an example are effectively unenforcable. Manufacturers are free to be flexible with stated top speeds and wattage, which is how the classes are distiguished. There's no penalty if their 750W motor is actually 2000W. It is brain dead easy to change the upper speed limit, just change the settings in your controller from 29" wheel to 26" for example, let alone the simple mods you can do.

    Example, 35 mph without pedaling:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/f...lectric-bike#/

    "The Fusion electric bike was originally designed to meet the California criteria for electric bikes (1000 watt). As long as you wear a helmet there is no license or insurance required

    The Fusion electric bike is designed more like a very light motorcycle than your average short range slow speed E-bike.

    The 48V MOSFET controller that delivers up to a peak of 2000 watts of power*.

    The Fusions controller can also be tailored to adhere to any local laws international or domestic(250watt, 350watt laws ) The power level can be set on the LCD dashboard and adjusted for off-road use back to maximum power."

    Or this, a class 3 bike that looks exactly like a class 1 or 2. Class 3 bikes are prohibited unless expressly allowed, Class 1 and 2 are allowed except where expressly prohibited.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/f...ith-attitude#/

    Who will enforce it? I would venture that the vast majority of public lands have no gates where your equipment is inspected as you pass through, and no money to hire additional personel to carry out such inspections either at the trail head or on the trail.

    The regs essentially allow you to ride any motorized electric bike you'd like, if anyone ever asks, just tell them what they need to hear.

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    Looks cool very clean good choice when you picking yours up????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    Who will enforce it? I would venture that the vast majority of public lands have no gates where your equipment is inspected as you pass through, and no money to hire additional personel to carry out such inspections either at the trail head or on the trail.

    .
    Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.

    I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Looks cool very clean good choice when you picking yours up????
    Since the only place ebikes are legal here is on the road, no bike paths, no single track, I don't see the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.

    I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.
    So, everyone using the park should finance the bike inspection program? For every park we'd add more staff? I can think of 6 city parks that are all mtb destinations within riding distance of me, all with multiple entry points, how would we handle that?

    We require OHV registration here at $25 a vehicle, I could support adding ebikes to that although in 30 years of riding trails I've never seen a ranger inspect anything, so essentially, you are just collecting money for trail maintenence. All ebikes or just those that go offroad?

    Should we raise taxes to pay for more rangers to carryout random inspections? Sticker fees wouldn't cover the cost.

    I'm not busting your ass, just being realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    I'm not busting your ass, just being realistic.
    You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.

    You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.

    And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.

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    woa!! there armii STOP making sense you will hurt the e haters feelings with your common sense approach .

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.

    You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.

    And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.
    And how will they do this in a National Forest, with dozens or hundreds of entry points? Whose use is free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
    ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!

    Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!
    Fixies only! Coasting downhill is not human powered ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.

    Seems the other way around to me, in many areas your suggestion is unrealistic. There are many thousands of acres and dozens of entry areas to most trail systems around here.

    I can't imagine wanting police, fees, inspections, etc. on the trails, must be a motorhead thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Fixies only! Coasting downhill is not human powered ;-)
    How about with a beer in your hand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.

    I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.
    This would probably work on private land but public land would be impossible. Case in point in Arizona they have what is called State Trust Land, land that is held in trust for the educational needs of residents. The state leases the land to ranchers for grazing and you can get a permit to use it for up to 10 days of occupancy. The permit cost $20 a year or something trivial and is the only thing that will keep you from getting a ticket on the land. Unfortunately AZ is about 1/4 state trust land. That means just to police it you need to have more than the 3 or 4 wardens that are in AZ and paid for by the money raised by selling passes and ranching leases. This means that the large majority of people that use it use it illegally because there is no repercussion for using it illegally due to lack of enforcement.

    We actually built a very large mountain bike loop in a patch of state trust land in Tucson that is quite the popular location. People come to Tucson and ride it and love it, all without the permit, because there is no one to enforce it. I would bet that 40-50000 people use it a year and maybe 0.5% of them have the pass. On a very few occasions in my decades long involvement with that trail did the BLM show up and actually ticket users without passes. I can only remember one or two times actually.

    So while enforcement and money changing hands seems like a good idea, I would bet it would not pay for itself nor would there be the infrastructure or the oversight to do so efficiently and profitably.

    As a side note, and completely related to riding on public lands: state trust land in AZ requires that you will only use the land with a permit. We had a younger rider crash on these trails, riding illegally without a pass, and injured himself. Broken neck as I recall, paralysis, etc. His family decided that they would sue the state because of it. Once the state determined he was riding the trails without a permit, they countersued to the full extent of the law for trespassing and using the land illegally. It completely changed the liability of using that area for this user and they ultimately were forced to drop their lawsuit due to their illegal actions on this property. I would assume that if a trail has mandated that your use of it is illegal it would change your liability if you are using it illegally. Something to consider if there hasn't been a determination from the public land managers as to the legality of your use on the trail. A simple accident could put you in a much higher liability for damages than if you had the same action on a pedal bike.
    Try this: HTFU

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    Once again lets not consider the simple just buy a pass , no no lets read the above and play what if with long winding unrealistic worst case a buch of bs that is totally with out merit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    woa!! there armii STOP making sense you will hurt the e haters feelings with your common sense approach .
    You are such a whiny little fella.

    Mountain bikers should start paying for access because some people want to start bringing motors onto traditionally non-motorized trails? Why the hell should I be charged for issues that are specific to a user group I have nothing at all to do with? What is it with e-bikers - you not only want real riders take care of your maintenance, volunteer even more trailwork than we already do in order to accommodate you, and now we should be charged fees to cover your asses too? How much time and money per year are YOU willing to spend to support a sport you have no interest in whatsoever? Why don't you send me some cash to cover my snowmobile registration and club costs, if that's how you think things should work. Or does it only work that way when you're the one on the receiving end?

    It's getting pretty easy to see what sort of people e-bikes attract.
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    Yeah that's right I want you to pay for my access to every park every place and when you gonna get my them new forks ?? and hey why didn't you pay for my MT Pass I bought last week! yap yap yap

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    . You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.

    And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.
    Markham has "nearly 11 miles of trails"

    Markham Park Mountain Bike Trails

    We have over 200 miles of non moto trails just within our city park system, over 14,000 acres with only 7 full time rangers to oversee it and a few more seasonal. Living in town, most riding takes place in city parks, county and USFS land, all are porus without a central entrance that you could gate. Access is generally through a small parking lot with a trail head or just a trailhead.

    I've been riding here for 30 years and have only seen USFS rangers on workdays. City rangers essentially the same or picking up trash and I've never seen a county ranger. Lots of land + little personel = little oversight.

    This is typical of riding in the west, putting a system in place to police e mountain bikes would be expensive and impractical since we don't ride in any sort of enclosed mountain bike park, it's simply land open to the public.

    That is the reality for many of us.

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    Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .
    I don't pay anything to ride my bike, ever.

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    Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .
    We don't have passes, people use the parks for free, mtbs can enter anywhere there's a trail. Ebikes don't pay either, but they're not legal anywhere so since you cant ride them, that seems fair.

    Our local club builds trails for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club
    It's a National Forest, and I'm one of the people doing the maintenance.

    Why would I pay to use it?
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    you do understand I am in the east there is only ST park or city park with some Natl forest and yes I think we all should pay , Its better than the 80s were we was illegal ever st park and city park

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    I could care less if e-bikes are on my local trails. If some one is out there enjoy biking and nature as they couldn't otherwise, that's cool with me. I see people riding like crap all the time that are gonna do far more damage to trail over their riding life than a few e-bikes could ever hope to. Just my opinion, I like to see people out biking.
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    I'm "in the east" as well.

    And I already pay, in the form of federal income tax.

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    thanks cornbread hope to see you on the trail , ok Le Duke why not

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club
    So I guess that's another you should be paying me then.
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    another what?? you have some problem with buying a pass or trail permit?? OK what now? dam now you haters what to hate on that??

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    trails that are free to mountain bike only charge and licence e-bikes to afford to police e-bikes. places that charge regular bikes charge more for e-bikes. You're just dead set against e-bikes and know reasons why it would be bad, can quote the facts on your side and totally dismiss anything that might intrude upon your point of view. Come on, this is not a religious debate, logic and reason are acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    another what?? you have some problem with buying a pass or trail permit?? OK what now? dam now you haters what to hate on that??
    Another reason.

    Yes, I have a problem with that. In 25+ years of riding trails, I've never had to pay to ride anywhere that doesn't have a chairlift. Not gonna start now, specially when the only reason would be to fund a completely different user group's requirements. Pay your own way, leave us out of it.
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    [QUOTE=slapheadmofo;12595339] Why the hell should I be charged for issues that are specific to a user group I have nothing at all to do with? QUOTE]

    I don't have any children why should my tax money go to education?

    I pay to ride Tamarcho in Marin County, it is Boy Scoot property, they have built a killer trail system. I would pay to ride sections of the Pacific Crest trail here in CA if they would allow it. I would pay for a wilderness bike access permit if they allowed it. E-Bikes should be regulated and not a ride anywhere affair. There are sections of trail out west that see no to little traffic of any sort.


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    lol what a piece of work slaphead is has never paid so why start now

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    Yes. Exactly. Why would he start paying for areas he is legally allowed to access for free?

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    You have to pay for a mountain access pass to park at the trailheads to hike the San Gabriel Mtns. Actually you need the pass to park anywhere, even at a roadside pullout. Our friends in the Republican party call this a "user fee", expect to see a lot more of them in a lot more places as state legislatures try to cut taxes and balance budgets simultaneously.

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    And if you came to a place that requires you to buy a trail permit?? like everywhere around here would you buy one?? I would hope I wouldn't even have to ask that

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    Yeah Moab charges to ride slick rock but slaphead and his buddies are exempt because of the Darwin theory .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Yeah Moab charges to ride slick rock but slaphead and his buddies are exempt because of the Darwin theory .
    What, pray tell, is the "Darwin theory"?

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    When we travel I always end up paying to ride. You pay to ride slickrock. You pay in Sedona for a parking pass. In my area the snowmobilers have a guy collecting money at their trailheads during the winter. I work hard and pay a lot of tax and it would piss me off if I had to pay to ride government land, but I would. In reality we should all join a club to help with trails maintenance.
    I hate e-bikes. I think they are the devil. I am okay if they are regulated to motorized trails only.
    But before I get my panties in a knot, lets think about this. If I am sharing the trail with some old guy or lady who is respectfully using the trail then it isn't going to bother me. If someone is commuting on one then that's alright too.
    The fear is that we will be bombarded be throttle twisting yahoo's and it will result in trail closures. I can only hope that this type of user won't last very long and will be onto the next new thing before it becomes a issue.
    I don't know why bike co's are pushing this market so hard, there must be some real money in it for them. I have made a decision not to support any manufacture that has a e-bike in there line up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    And if you came to a place that requires you to buy a trail permit?? like everywhere around here would you buy one?? I would hope I wouldn't even have to ask that
    Not sure. It's such an alien concept that I've never really given it thought. In New England, we build 'em and we ride 'em. There's nobody collecting money. If there were, I'd most likely poach. I put in well over 100 hours a year of trailwork and have for ages. I'm not paying shit to ride unless you're giving me a lift up a mountain.
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    well I have never been up your way so what ever works some times its just buying a map from a local shop , I always stop in and chat and buy something .

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Not sure. It's such an alien concept that I've never really given it thought. In New England, we build 'em and we ride 'em. There's nobody collecting money. If there were, I'd most likely poach. I put in well over 100 hours a year of trailwork and have for ages. I'm not paying shit to ride unless you're giving me a lift up a mountain.
    I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails to come onto their land and create MTB sized trails from the natural game trails. Because if it's private property and we are all trespassing together who cares what you ride? If it's state or federal land I'm not so sure you can build trails wherever you want, at least they don't like it much out here.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails to come onto their land and create MTB sized trails from the natural game trails. Because if it's private property and we are all trespassing together who cares what you ride? If it's state or federal land I'm not so sure you can build trails wherever you want, at least they don't like it much out here.....
    In our FS district, the local trail club asks for permission to do trail work (maintenance), receives a "yes", then requires all participants to sign a line on a form. Name, age, check a block or two, signature. We had 35 people last Tuesday. Ran out of tools.

    That's it. I don't pay anyone a dime, the FS doesn't come monitor us. Why? Because they've observed the work locals have done, and been satisfied.

    People and groups submit plans for new trails. They get built a year or two after submission, public comment period, funding, etc. With a mix of volunteer and paid, professional labor. There are two trails approved for construction here now, that were planned by locals and submitted to the FS. Just waiting on them to solicit bids, select a winner and then local volunteers will be alerted.

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    Ok that's cool looks like its working just fine one thing I have seen that I think is a great ideal is what Santos in FL does , the bike shop green way bikes across the street from the trail sells a map that's printed on a small towel . That money is plowed back in to the trail fund and since its printed on a towel you don't have ppl throwing them on the ground .

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails
    Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.
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    I figured that was the case, despite our disagreement over ebikes you seem a responsible person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.
    Same situation here. Our local park system is broke, we've been at it since 1995 and have a great relationship with our local LM's. We design, build and pay for our own builds and also work with them to design for others to build. It's taken a loooong time to get to where we are now. Our trails are all open to the public, feel free to donate to our organization, but everyone uses them for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Same situation here. Our local park system is broke, we've been at it since 1995 and have a great relationship with our local LM's. We design, build and pay for our own builds and also work with them to design for others to build. It's taken a loooong time to get to where we are now. Our trails are all open to the public, feel free to donate to our organization, but everyone uses them for free.
    If I join and donate, can I ride my ebike on your public trails?

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    Is there not a lot of cross over between the e-bike crowd and the MTBing. If one buys a e-bike are they only going to e-bike. I don't ride my fully rigid single speed on gravity days or take it lift assisted riding. I have a big bike for that. Broad statements and blanket policies do not do the argument justice. I am now 65 so my days getting into the back county pedal only powered is much more difficult than it used to be. I am conflicted about even thinking about buying a e-bike but I so want to continue some of the rides that have become to difficult for me due to medical issues. I am embarrassed about wanting a e-bike. For years I was the one gear only guy that disparaged geared riders. Times change people change, I have always been very polite on the trails, I don't see that changing what ever bike I am on. I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If I join and donate, can I ride my ebike on your public trails?
    Anyone can ride their bike on the trails we build, or hike, or trail run, no need to join or donate. However, ebikes are motorized and motorized vehicles are not allowed on non motorized trails here. Plenty of other places you could ride it on the moto trails though,.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dstepper View Post
    Is there not a lot of cross over between the e-bike crowd and the MTBing. If one buys a e-bike are they only going to e-bike. I don't ride my fully rigid single speed on gravity days or take it lift assisted riding. I have a big bike for that. Broad statements and blanket policies do not do the argument justice. I am now 65 so my days getting into the back county pedal only powered is much more difficult than it used to be. I am conflicted about even thinking about buying a e-bike but I so want to continue some of the rides that have become to difficult for me due to medical issues. I am embarrassed about wanting a e-bike. For years I was the one gear only guy that disparaged geared riders. Times change people change, I have always been very polite on the trails, I don't see that changing what ever bike I am on. I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.
    I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.

    Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.

    Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.
    Mirrors my sentiments exactly.

    I have a great time riding dirt or snow on motorized vehicles. Took my son ATVing just this afternoon actually. Ride dirt bikes and snowmos too. I have zero problem with motorized toys in general. I really don't see that the current e-bikes used responsibly would create any sort of real issues on the trails I know (which are a good few). I just want to make sure they are never confused with real bikes as far as access.
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  94. #94
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    As long as they aren't damaging to the trails I couldn't care less. Traction or lack there of is what generally limits/dictates my speed on the trails. With the exception of going uphill I can't really see an Ebike allowing one to go that much faster on trails.

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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.

    Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.
    There has been no "backcountry access" that has been "gained" by bikes not being electric motor assisted in my area. I'm wondering if this is another blanket statement that really doesn't apply since the ebikes of today really weren't an option years ago.
    If someone has to gain access to land, I wonder if a video of someone ripping down a trail on a downhill FS bike running over everything in sight and throwing dirt and rocks through every corner would be any less objectionable than an ebike. They are also a "different class of vehicle" and should maybe be banned from every public land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    a downhill FS bike running over everything in sight and throwing dirt and rocks through every corner
    Or some "fatbiker" riding off trail and/or through sensitive/muddy areas, thinking it's all good cuz he purchased the latest trendy gear and now the rules (and common sense) no longer apply to him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    There has been no "backcountry access" that has been "gained" by bikes not being electric motor assisted in my area.
    There's never been any opposition to mtb's in Laramie? Trying to getting approvals for motorized bikes on trails would have been just as easy as mtbs? Man, you've got it good.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    There's never been any opposition to mtb's in Laramie? Trying to getting approvals for motorized bikes on trails would have been just as easy as mtbs? Man, you've got it good.
    Opposition? There's always opposition to anyone doing something that you aren't doing. Motorized traffic used to be okay everywhere. Now, partially because of the biking community, there are more problems with some people wanting to limit what others can do on public land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.
    ^^^^ What he said. Our mt bike chapters are a not for profit. We spend the money on lots of PT lumber. Each chapter usually covers one or more state parks/forests in their area in which to do work. We have about 30 chapters all over New England and 5,000 + members. Often times we will get requests from the LM for reroutes, new or rebuilt bridges and such. We will sometimes suggest new trails as well. Subject to review as well as conservation and wetlands study too. Nemba raised $ 200,000 to buy a property to keep it from being developed. This tied in with several other conservation parcels too. Nice. A most recent project the NE part of MA involved 3 land stake holders, plus wetlands and conservation issues. We built a looong bridge over where a beaver dam was situated( it's still there) it connects 2 properties and was actually done by a pro trail work team. We as well as lots of volunteers carried in lumber. Worked with the AMC as well as several towns. Truly a cooperative project. Also a really nice grant by REI( way awesome) Part of why we here in MA and NE are vary wary of the whole E bike thing.

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    Thanks for the tip about REI, I've been a member for decades. I'll write their board about their policies on inclusivity and ebikes....... Maybe we can get equal rights, or keep money from being spent on areas where we are banned. What with REI being a multi-sport retailer and not just a bike shop, I am surprised they support organizations that exclude people from the outdoors as opposed to including them.

    It will be interesting to hear how their public relations group justify their support for organizations that favor one group of citizens over another. Perhaps we can shine a light on their discriminatory charity policies and see if such prejudice is supported by their membership. One would think that a policy that provides financial support for bicycle groups that actively discriminate against a whole other class of bicyclists with no actual evidence would be toxic in 2016. It certainly should be possible to make it so.........

    I hadn't thought to follow the money, but I do now. I bet there are dozens of big companies that are susceptible to public pressure that currently support exclusionary groups and can have their minds changed. It may be as easy a shining a light on the problem, they simply may not know that their funds go to support only one side of such controversial issues.

    Thank you again for the tip: if we can get folks mobilized we can at least stop our money being spent to keep us out! BTW, the MTB trail organizations that work so hard to keep ebikes out, proudly list their sponsors on their websites: it makes it easy to find out who to call.
    Last edited by WoodlandHills; 04-25-2016 at 04:42 PM.

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