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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    I don't know anything about the "fitness debate". I do believe that if I'm riding for fitness, and I am, it makes sense to me that the harder I work, the more fit I'm likely to get. Why would I want to ride 25 miles on an e-MTB if I can achieve the same workout in 15 miles on my Farley? I'm not saying that there isn't a valid reason, for wanting to ride 25 miles instead of 15, only that distance isn't my goal.
    I'm not debating with you. In previous threads, the "fitness debate" arises, constantly. You may opt to ride an emtb to see more trail, go at a faster pace, or just plain put a smile on your face! Whatever. If fitness is your only goal, I'd suggest intervals on the bike and a rowing machine. Works for me, JMO. Is this accurate Chazpat?
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  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Uh yeah. I posted it. Unlike you and many that have never owned an emtb, I have. Two Levo's, and have first hand experienced it. Believe it or not, doesn't matter.
    You probably misunderstood me as I misspelled, I meant "Moe Ped", as in another member here. Another ebiker posted some numbers and talked about how much work he had done riding his ebike. Moe Ped broke the numbers down using real math and showed that the motor had done the majority of the work. I'm sure you think your numbers are correct and they may be, I'm just curious if they are accurate and Moe Ped seems to know this stuff more than anyone else around here.

    I'm editing my post above with a note.
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  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    Ahh got it. I weight 230, so an extra 15lbs on the bike down low doesn't bother me, in particular if the 15 lbs is gonna help me get my 230lbs uphill. And I can get the front wheel up just fine. I can still bunny hop... and my slow speed moves are still there.

    Do you ride an emtb along with your regular mtb often?
    Did two demos once. Found the bike to be very heavy esp. on the front end. At speed I clear 6-8" logs all the time. I have to loft the front wheel up 1 ft all the time. And thank goodness they are not allowed on the trails around here.

  4. #404
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    How hard you exert yourself while riding a bike or ebike has no bearing on if you should be riding it where you want to ride it. The people who make those decisions don't care. I still don't know why anyone thinks it matters?

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    You probably misunderstood me as I misspelled, I meant "Moe Ped", as in another member here. Another ebiker posted some numbers and talked about how much work he had done riding his ebike. Moe Ped broke the numbers down using real math and showed that the motor had done the majority of the work. I'm sure you think your numbers are correct and they may be, I'm just curious if they are accurate and Moe Ped seems to know this stuff more than anyone else around here.

    I'm editing my post above with a note.
    No worries, unless you know your body, bike(S), and trail well, I don't think you can figure this out through math.
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  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Did two demos once. Found the bike to be very heavy esp. on the front end. At speed I clear 6-8" logs all the time. I have to loft the front wheel up 1 ft all the time. And thank goodness they are not allowed on the trails around here.
    I'd agree with you on that. On trails that require that type of maneuvering, I wouldn't want to ride an ebike either.

  7. #407
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    They're really not "that" bad, even in the rough. The front end feels heavy because the chainstays on the Levo are sooo long for stability. You can manual and do small bunny hops though. Tire pressure is very different on the 27.5+ with all that weight. Also the suspension needs serious tokens or bands if your going to ride it hard and weigh over 175. The coolest thing for me was the gobs of traction. It's crazy. Mass and kx80 tires the damn thing is glued to the earth. Ruts aren't noticed. It's the same but different. JMO.
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  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    How hard you exert yourself while riding a bike or ebike has no bearing on if you should be riding it where you want to ride it. The people who make those decisions don't care. I still don't know why anyone thinks it matters?
    I agree with you. For me, it's just one arrow in the quiver. And I ride it where my reading of the law tells me it's no prohibited from doing so.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Did two demos once. Found the bike to be very heavy esp. on the front end. At speed I clear 6-8" logs all the time. I have to loft the front wheel up 1 ft all the time. And thank goodness they are not allowed on the trails around here.
    Understood. Not too many logs to clear where I typically ride. Most of what I ride is fire road climbs with downhills consisting of singletrack hardpack over soft, with small/medium rock gardens and interspersed 6" to 18' drop-offs.

  10. #410
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    And we are testing legal on some local "trails". :-)

    E bikes on your trails?-i-rxlgrms-xl.jpg

    And my arm is finally good enough to ride something again! YaFvckingHOOOOOOOO! :-)


    Catfish ...

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    And we are testing legal on some local "trails". :-)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And my arm is finally good enough to ride something again! YaFvckingHOOOOOOOO! :-)


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    Is that in Pleasanton?

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Is that in Pleasanton?
    Photo on Contra-Costa Canal Trail in Walnut Creek. If you zoom in to read sign you can see the program does include the Iron Horse Trail to Pleasanton. :-)

    Catfish ...

  13. #413
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    Hi ..

    So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo

    I am wondering, do you ( the anti-ebikers ) still do math without a calculator ... ?
    I mean you could, but why would you?
    A calculator makes it quicker, easier, arguably more fun .. but its still math!

    Do you shout "thats cheating" every time a you see someone using calculator or sending an email instead of writing a letter and mailing it?

    Its like the barefoot brigade getting annoyed because now we have running shoes ... ?!
    It doesn't make running any less running, its just doesn't hurt your feet as much anymore!

    I ride and race mtb's everything from enduro and downhill to the local one days events ranging from 25km - 60km and even done a 250km multi day stage race and going down, whether i am on the Levo or my Capra enduro bike my times/speeds are the same. The levo takes the pain out the climbs and leaves me with more time and energy for going back down again and again. I can do twice as much in the same time and get twice the workout as well ... FACT!

    Some actual data from recent rides (strava) at my local trails ( same routes & time on the bike )

    Turbo Levo Stats
    40km | 1218m gain | 2hr45 ride time | 2040 Calories | Ave speed 14.5km/h | Max speed 49 km/h | Avg heart rates 155bpm | Max heart rate 184bpm | output 1829kj | Ave output 184W

    super enjoyable and after the ride i was proper buggered, other guys did half the distance and were as buggered.

    YT Capra stats
    27.3km | 805m gain | 2hr41 ride time | 1102 calories | Ave speed 10.2 km/h | Max speed 46 km/h | Ave h/rate 166 bpm | Max heart rate 189 bpm | output 988 km | ave power 102 W

    These are actual numbers. NOT debatable. More km's done, loads more fun, double calories burned, more climbing, more sweating, more technical training ( by way of more runs done ) miles more smiles ... certainly no more or less damage to trails SO WHAT IS THE ISSUE?!

    If you want to work twice as hard for half the fun .. go ahead but that doesn't make you right or wrong.

    I believe alot of the people that don't like pedal assisted bikes don't actually understand the concept and think they are comparable to throttle type bikes that you can just "sit and twist" to go anywhere which they aren't

    As someone said before the biggest contributor to increased speed on the trails is suspension technology and not pedal assist bike technology.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Dirty View Post
    Hi ..

    So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo

    I am wondering, do you ( the anti-ebikers ) still do math without a calculator ... ?
    I mean you could, but why would you?
    A calculator makes it quicker, easier, arguably more fun .. but its still math!

    Do you shout "thats cheating" every time a you see someone using calculator or sending an email instead of writing a letter and mailing it?

    Its like the barefoot brigade getting annoyed because now we have running shoes ... ?!
    It doesn't make running any less running, its just doesn't hurt your feet as much anymore!

    I ride and race mtb's everything from enduro and downhill to the local one days events ranging from 25km - 60km and even done a 250km multi day stage race and going down, whether i am on the Levo or my Capra enduro bike my times/speeds are the same. The levo takes the pain out the climbs and leaves me with more time and energy for going back down again and again. I can do twice as much in the same time and get twice the workout as well ... FACT!

    Some actual data from recent rides (strava) at my local trails ( same routes & time on the bike )

    Turbo Levo Stats
    40km | 1218m gain | 2hr45 ride time | 2040 Calories | Ave speed 14.5km/h | Max speed 49 km/h | Avg heart rates 155bpm | Max heart rate 184bpm | output 1829kj | Ave output 184W

    super enjoyable and after the ride i was proper buggered, other guys did half the distance and were as buggered.

    YT Capra stats
    27.3km | 805m gain | 2hr41 ride time | 1102 calories | Ave speed 10.2 km/h | Max speed 46 km/h | Ave h/rate 166 bpm | Max heart rate 189 bpm | output 988 km | ave power 102 W

    These are actual numbers. NOT debatable. More km's done, loads more fun, double calories burned, more climbing, more sweating, more technical training ( by way of more runs done ) miles more smiles ... certainly no more or less damage to trails SO WHAT IS THE ISSUE?!

    If you want to work twice as hard for half the fun .. go ahead but that doesn't make you right or wrong.

    I believe alot of the people that don't like pedal assisted bikes don't actually understand the concept and think they are comparable to throttle type bikes that you can just "sit and twist" to go anywhere which they aren't

    As someone said before the biggest contributor to increased speed on the trails is suspension technology and not pedal assist bike technology.
    Please read through the existing threads in the ebike forum, this has all been covered over and over.
    There are two types of people in this world:
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  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Dirty View Post
    These are actual numbers. NOT debatable.
    Actually without verified power meter data it's just hearsay, even then it could be hacked.

    I suppose I'm considered an "anti" here but I could care less about how much work someone does on a ride, some are out for a workout and others just smelling the roses, more power to both of them. E-bikes are a little faster and different than bicycles and that's all.
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  16. #416
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    Missed the user name, lol @ Ride Dirty!
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  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Dirty View Post
    Hi ..

    So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo

    I am wondering, do you ( the anti-ebikers ) still do math without a calculator ... ?
    I mean you could, but why would you?
    A calculator makes it quicker, easier, arguably more fun .. but its still math!

    Do you shout "thats cheating" every time a you see someone using calculator or sending an email instead of writing a letter and mailing it?

    Its like the barefoot brigade getting annoyed because now we have running shoes ... ?!
    It doesn't make running any less running, its just doesn't hurt your feet as much anymore!

    I ride and race mtb's everything from enduro and downhill to the local one days events ranging from 25km - 60km and even done a 250km multi day stage race and going down, whether i am on the Levo or my Capra enduro bike my times/speeds are the same. The levo takes the pain out the climbs and leaves me with more time and energy for going back down again and again. I can do twice as much in the same time and get twice the workout as well ... FACT!

    Some actual data from recent rides (strava) at my local trails ( same routes & time on the bike )

    Turbo Levo Stats
    40km | 1218m gain | 2hr45 ride time | 2040 Calories | Ave speed 14.5km/h | Max speed 49 km/h | Avg heart rates 155bpm | Max heart rate 184bpm | output 1829kj | Ave output 184W

    super enjoyable and after the ride i was proper buggered, other guys did half the distance and were as buggered.

    YT Capra stats
    27.3km | 805m gain | 2hr41 ride time | 1102 calories | Ave speed 10.2 km/h | Max speed 46 km/h | Ave h/rate 166 bpm | Max heart rate 189 bpm | output 988 km | ave power 102 W

    These are actual numbers. NOT debatable. More km's done, loads more fun, double calories burned, more climbing, more sweating, more technical training ( by way of more runs done ) miles more smiles ... certainly no more or less damage to trails SO WHAT IS THE ISSUE?!

    If you want to work twice as hard for half the fun .. go ahead but that doesn't make you right or wrong.

    I believe alot of the people that don't like pedal assisted bikes don't actually understand the concept and think they are comparable to throttle type bikes that you can just "sit and twist" to go anywhere which they aren't

    As someone said before the biggest contributor to increased speed on the trails is suspension technology and not pedal assist bike technology.
    Good for you. At the end of the day, it's all about fun. If you enjoy your Levo on legal trails, that's awesome.
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  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Dirty View Post
    Hi ..

    So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo

    I am wondering, do you ( the anti-ebikers ) still do math without a calculator ... ?
    I mean you could, but why would you?
    A calculator makes it quicker, easier, arguably more fun .. but its still math!

    Do you shout "thats cheating" every time a you see someone using calculator or sending an email instead of writing a letter and mailing it?

    Its like the barefoot brigade getting annoyed because now we have running shoes ... ?!
    It doesn't make running any less running, its just doesn't hurt your feet as much anymore!

    I ride and race mtb's everything from enduro and downhill to the local one days events ranging from 25km - 60km and even done a 250km multi day stage race and going down, whether i am on the Levo or my Capra enduro bike my times/speeds are the same. The levo takes the pain out the climbs and leaves me with more time and energy for going back down again and again. I can do twice as much in the same time and get twice the workout as well ... FACT!

    Some actual data from recent rides (strava) at my local trails ( same routes & time on the bike )

    Turbo Levo Stats
    40km | 1218m gain | 2hr45 ride time | 2040 Calories | Ave speed 14.5km/h | Max speed 49 km/h | Avg heart rates 155bpm | Max heart rate 184bpm | output 1829kj | Ave output 184W

    super enjoyable and after the ride i was proper buggered, other guys did half the distance and were as buggered.

    YT Capra stats
    27.3km | 805m gain | 2hr41 ride time | 1102 calories | Ave speed 10.2 km/h | Max speed 46 km/h | Ave h/rate 166 bpm | Max heart rate 189 bpm | output 988 km | ave power 102 W

    These are actual numbers. NOT debatable. More km's done, loads more fun, double calories burned, more climbing, more sweating, more technical training ( by way of more runs done ) miles more smiles ... certainly no more or less damage to trails SO WHAT IS THE ISSUE?!

    If you want to work twice as hard for half the fun .. go ahead but that doesn't make you right or wrong.

    I believe alot of the people that don't like pedal assisted bikes don't actually understand the concept and think they are comparable to throttle type bikes that you can just "sit and twist" to go anywhere which they aren't

    As someone said before the biggest contributor to increased speed on the trails is suspension technology and not pedal assist bike technology.
    Welcome to the forum. Please wait to post until you've caught up. You are currently repeating all of the same crap that's been going on forever. Nothing new.

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  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Dirty View Post
    whether i am on the Levo or my Capra enduro bike my times/speeds are the same. The levo takes the pain out the climbs and leaves me with more time and energy for going back down again and again. I can do twice as much in the same time and get twice the workout as well ... FACT!
    These are two contradictory statements. The speeds are the same. I can go twice as far in the same amount of time on one over the other.

    Not all of us here hate ebikes, I think they're awesome actually, I just don't think they're a bicycle, and especially in the US, will be less and less like a bike as they evolve. If whoever manages the land decides emtbs are allowed, I've got no issue with it, I just don't like that decision being made by politicians or the people who profit from selling them.

    For those of us involved in trail access, the increased performance and increased range of an ebike are a concern. Faster and farther makes land managers nervous and other user groups unhappy.

    Sounds like you are not in the US, I'd venture your emtbs are far more regulated than ours, and slower as well.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    These are two contradictory statements. The speeds are the same. I can go twice as far in the same amount of time on one over the other.

    Not all of us here hate ebikes, I think they're awesome actually, I just don't think they're a bicycle, and especially in the US, will be less and less like a bike as they evolve. If whoever manages the land decides emtbs are allowed, I've got no issue with it, I just don't like that decision being made by politicians or the people who profit from selling them.

    For those of us involved in trail access, the increased performance and increased range of an ebike are a concern. Faster and farther makes land managers nervous and other user groups unhappy.

    Sounds like you are not in the US, I'd venture your emtbs are far more regulated than ours, and slower as well.


    Times as in time on bike 2hr 40 ish ... and max speeds just below 50km/h

    My Ave speed and max speed on the ride are similar.

    There are guys on regular mtb's that go both faster and further ... so if distance and performance are the concern should we be limiting ride time and/or distance per ride/rider?

    Bikes here .. Levo's and Giants anyway are restricted at 25km/m so after that you're 100% under your own power.

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Dirty View Post
    Times as in time on bike 2hr 40 ish ... and max speeds just below 50km/h

    My Ave speed and max speed on the ride are similar.

    There are guys on regular mtb's that go both faster and further ... so if distance and performance are the concern should we be limiting ride time and/or distance per ride/rider?

    Bikes here .. Levo's and Giants anyway are restricted at 25km/m so after that you're 100% under your own power.
    Bikes are already effectively limited in many ways by how fit you are. And sure there are plenty of people who can ride faster than I can, both up and down and there are certainly riders that are faster on a mtb than riders on an emtb, it's a small segment of the riding population though. I know locals who can knock out 100 mile mtb rides, but they are in the mutant class, not the 99% of the riders you see on the trails. It doesn't matter one way or another if <5% of the riding population is riding twice as far as the rest of us, either on an mtb or emtb, but it begins to matter if 50% are, which if the predictions that 250w emtbs will take over the world come true. Even in that case, I don't think the additional impact is unmanagable, you'd just need more resources to deal with it. Which gets back to my original point, they're not the same as bikes and should be managed reasonably, for what they are.

    FYI, US laws allow 750w 32 kph Class PAS emtbs, also without the required type approvals and regulations required in the EU. A manufacturer can make any claim about their ebikes here they'd like.

  22. #422
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    I ran into a guy poaching trails on his e-bike while I was in Sedona recently. His rig was broken down and he looked pretty mad at having to push it out of the desert in the heat of the mid-day.

    That was the only e-bike I saw on trails in ~2 weeks down there.
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  23. #423
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    What? You didn’t tow him out! Jk! Why didn’t he ride out?
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    vikb, did you see that sign in Sedona? We are going in a few days and I wondered if they had any Red Rock policy yet? When we were there last year I saw one on the trails and a few on the street. I don't know if you noticed but there are a few bike shops pushing them hard to the old folks.
    If you haven't ridden a bike in several years I don't think you should buy a ebike and go play in the traffic. As cyclist we know how vulnerable we are, a senior that has only ever driven a Cadillac has no idea.

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    What? You didn’t tow him out! Jk! Why didn’t he ride out?
    That doesn't seem to be an option for most ebikers. Ride? What's that?

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  26. #426
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    Well, I’m certainly one of those guys that don’t want to pedal! I always pack a few energizers with me, just in case..
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  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlee View Post
    If you haven't ridden a bike in several years I don't think you should buy a ebike and go play in the traffic. As cyclist we know how vulnerable we are, a senior that has only ever driven a Cadillac has no idea.
    you make a good point.
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  28. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlee View Post
    vikb, did you see that sign in Sedona? We are going in a few days and I wondered if they had any Red Rock policy yet?
    It would be best to ask at a LBS as I am no expert on the subject. My friend [Sedona local] said e-bikes were banned on any forest service trails. I don't know what trails belong to other land management groups in that area.
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  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Why didn’t he ride out?
    I have no idea and I wasn't interested in finding out. It was very hot, he had a heavy looking bike and the trail was quite rough. Perhaps riding without the motor was not realistic for him?
    Safe riding,

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  30. #430
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    As an FYI, the trailforks app has a land owner overlay. You can use it to see who owns the land a trail is on. If it's on USFS or BLM land, you can be assured that ebikes cannot ride that trail. Here is a snapshot of Sedona. It does look like the vast majority of their trails are USFS (light green)


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  31. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    If it's on USFS or BLM land, you can be assured that ebikes cannot ride that trail.
    That’s mostly true, but I can think of a number of motorized-legal singletrack trails on NFS land.

  32. #432
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    I 100% encourage e-bikes on "your" my trails that I ride. Don't have ebike, but I think it's good for the sports sole (it's rotten, stick a battery in it and move on). Let the ebikers fight with the dog walkers, it will push the true mountain bikers back to what mountain biking was.

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    I ride on a crazy fast e bike and I would like to say anyone who can ride a e bike full out on a trail has big ol balls. I choke back the power level to a 3 of 9 settings and it's all I need to have a great time

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    Right on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Bikes are already effectively limited in many ways by how fit you are. And sure there are plenty of people who can ride faster than I can, both up and down and there are certainly riders that are faster on a mtb than riders on an emtb, it's a small segment of the riding population though. I know locals who can knock out 100 mile mtb rides, but they are in the mutant class, not the 99% of the riders you see on the trails. It doesn't matter one way or another if <5% of the riding population is riding twice as far as the rest of us, either on an mtb or emtb, but it begins to matter if 50% are, which if the predictions that 250w emtbs will take over the world come true. Even in that case, I don't think the additional impact is unmanagable, you'd just need more resources to deal with it. Which gets back to my original point, they're not the same as bikes and should be managed reasonably, for what they are.

    FYI, US laws allow 750w 32 kph Class PAS emtbs, also without the required type approvals and regulations required in the EU. A manufacturer can make any claim about their ebikes here they'd like.
    Nothing wrong with e bikes on trails, anyone that is at a trail no matter the type of bike already knows what is about to go down... the rocks you go over the other guy has to go over. You and the other guy know what it takes to do it... if either of you muff it... then your a FNG and that crash is lesson one of how not to go over rocks on ( INSERT BIKE OF CHOICE )
    Trust me it's OK for an e bike noob to eat dirt. I ate dirt on my bike learning my lessons. My dad ate dirt on lessons before me. How else is a guy supposed to learn...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beastride El Rey View Post
    Nothing wrong with e bikes on trails, anyone that is at a trail no matter the type of bike already knows what is about to go down... the rocks you go over the other guy has to go over. You and the other guy know what it takes to do it... if either of you muff it... then your a FNG and that crash is lesson one of how not to go over rocks on ( INSERT BIKE OF CHOICE )
    Trust me it's OK for an e bike noob to eat dirt. I ate dirt on my bike learning my lessons. My dad ate dirt on lessons before me. How else is a guy supposed to learn...
    Welcome to the Forum. You've now posted 4 times, three in this one old thread. Please take some time to read through MANY of the old threads hashing this out. Most things have been addressed regarding ebikes and no one here has a desire to hash it back out with you. Also read the ebike forum rules. Especially regarding advocating for illegal ebikes or poaching.

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    Are you OK there utah. Had a little too much to drink i see. Is it common place to accuse a life long xc biker with 20 years riding and 50,000 miles before I became a handicap O.P.E.M.D. rider that legally rides all the same trails I have for 20 years. Plus poaching... that's an random and uncalled for remark. By the way do you know we live in a free america that allows law abiding citizens the freedom to comment in a open forum.... not that I am here to challenge anyone to "hash out" anything. I'm am fully aware of the laws in my state and the codes in my city. It was by understanding the laws that I am able to get permission to ride freely in my city and local trails and in places that all bikes are not allowed. By the way does this organization approve of your discrimination of disabled riders and false accusations of illegal criminal activity's ... or have you been out in the woods alone too long cabin boy... ..i..

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beastride El Rey View Post
    Are you OK there utah. Had a little too much to drink i see. Is it common place to accuse a life long xc biker with 20 years riding and 50,000 miles before I became a handicap O.P.E.M.D. rider that legally rides all the same trails I have for 20 years. Plus poaching... that's an random and uncalled for remark. By the way do you know we live in a free america that allows law abiding citizens the freedom to comment in a open forum.... not that I am here to challenge anyone to "hash out" anything. I'm am fully aware of the laws in my state and the codes in my city. It was by understanding the laws that I am able to get permission to ride freely in my city and local trails and in places that all bikes are not allowed. By the way does this organization approve of your discrimination of disabled riders and false accusations of illegal criminal activity's ... or have you been out in the woods alone too long cabin boy... ..i..
    Ok princess. Take a breath. I never accused you of anything besides jumping into the pool without looking. Your biking experience means nothing, as does your disability. I'm addressing you, not a handicap. If you'd like to comment on a post, great. Maybe look at when it was posted to see if the discussion is still pertinent. If it's an old post, you can be safe assuming that the topic got old and everything important had been addressed. Start a new topic if you want. Just make sure to follow the Forum guidelines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beastride El Rey View Post
    I ride on a crazy fast e bike and I would like to say anyone who can ride a e bike full out on a trail has big ol balls. I choke back the power level to a 3 of 9 settings and it's all I need to have a great time
    This is a family friendly forum. Please you balls to yourself.
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  40. #440
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    Geeze, I actually feel sorry for some of our ebikers here, seems like there is a steady stream of ebikers who join this site just to strut in with a big chip on their shoulder and challenge people to knock it off.
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    No thanks, not this time, cause I haven't much experience on E-bike trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Geeze, I actually feel sorry for some of our ebikers here, seems like there is a steady stream of ebikers who join this site just to strut in with a big chip on their shoulder and challenge people to knock it off.
    Yeah, that guy was a troll from the beginning. we just don't need that kind of negative trolling on this site. 5 posts in and that is what he has done so far. nope. you are gone buddy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSpice View Post
    I mountain bike for fitness and muscle cross training, on top of obviously being fun. So I know I would never use an e-bike as it would defeat the primary purpose of my riding.

    However, there is an equally large, if not larger, group of people that ride for the pure pleasure of it. So if an e-bike will allow them to get out and ride longer (which will still burn 'some' calories), and it doesn't compromise the integrity of the trails or endanger anyone on the trail? I am all for it.

    My concern is that these bikes are generally a lot heavier, and have a power source. So if a novice gets behind the bars of one of these and loses control of it, it has the potential to deal a lot more damage than even the heaviest of full suspension bikes. Since you likely won't see as many experienced mountain bikers changing over to e-bikes, the clientele is likely to primarily be amateurs and novice riders.

    A happy medium would be to put a speed limiter on the power assist to stop pedaling at about 5mph. (Whereas many of them are at 15mph) This allows them to primarily only assist the rider in climbing, where I would guess those using e-bikes want them. If a person wants to climb faster than 5mph? Well then you get to join the rest of the community and use your legs.

    Still, can't get away from gravity pulling that hoss down a trail at a much greater speed than a normal bike.
    You don’t understand how an eBike works if you think that you don’t get a workout. I have a 2017 Stumpjumper Carbon Comp FSR & a Turbo Levo Comp FSR. Nearly identical bikes. One is 20 pounds heavier because of the battery & motor. If the Stumpy is the baseline, then the Levo requires anywhere from (using approximate numbers) 50 percent to 120 percent of the effort to maintain a given speed over a given distance. It’s similar to the difference between you and a Tour professional. They don’t work any less hard than you do just because they are faster. On my Levo over a flat 1 mile gravel road I can maintain 20 mph at the highest level of assist at a steady 155 bpm. On my Stumpy I can maintain 12 at 155 bpm. Based on detailed training records from my mid 20s, I would average 18-20 mph at about 160 bpm over a semi flat 20 mile paved course on a late 80’s hardtail mountain bike. Today on the Levo, at 53, I can maintain same pace with about 50 percent assist at about 160 bpm. My Stumpy rides are more “peaky” with higher max heart rate, and need to be shorter distances than my Levo rides. Levo rides are more aerobic and the bike allows you to dial-in as much or as little anaerobic time as you like.

    As far as speed while climbing is concerned, when I ride with high school competitive riders, I adjust my assist to match the level of effort (taking into account differences in healthy heart rate zones ) and match climbing speed. It isn’t about climbing faster than 5 mph. It’s about the ability to match levels of effort.

    You have some significant misconceptions of the whole eMTB riding experience. That is strangely common in the US.

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    I don't care one way or the other. I don't care what brand or style bike people ride either.

    I obviously don't want to see people going to fast on trails we share with hikers and dog walkers but so far I have yet to see a electric bike that climbs faster than the regular bikers descend.

    OT but once the price comes down I might look into getting one to haul trail tools around with.

  45. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Lee View Post
    I obviously don't want to see people going to fast on trails we share with hikers and dog walkers but so far I have yet to see a electric bike that climbs faster than the regular bikers descend.

    OT but once the price comes down I might look into getting one to haul trail tools around with.
    That is a great point, on a mutli-use trail where uphill bike traffic is 2-3mph and downhill bike traffic is 15-20mph.... you have a 13-18mph speed differential.

    When the uphill riders are on an eBike and are now going 10mph uphill, the speed differential changes from 13-18mph to 23-28mph. That is when problems will arise. And that is not counting any equestrians or pedestrians that might be sharing the trail.

    On a directional trail system the extra speed for an eBike climbing is not an issue IMO.

    There is not one blanket answer for this in all riding area's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is a great point, on a mutli-use trail where uphill bike traffic is 2-3mph and downhill bike traffic is 15-20mph.... you have a 13-18mph speed differential.

    When the uphill riders are on an eBike and are now going 10mph uphill, the speed differential changes from 13-18mph to 23-28mph. That is when problems will arise. And that is not counting any equestrians or pedestrians that might be sharing the trail.

    On a directional trail system the extra speed for an eBike climbing is not an issue IMO.

    There is not one blanket answer for this in all riding area's.
    I have yet to see a trail where the downhill rider is not obligated to yield to the uphill rider. Is that not the case where you live?

  47. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I have yet to see a trail where the downhill rider is not obligated to yield to the uphill rider. Is that not the case where you live?
    It most certainly is the unspoken trail etiquette. But some trails have difficult sight lines and 2 people on bikes could come around a corner and suddenly be face to face, that is when differential speed will determine if the downhill rider can stop in time to not collide with the uphill rider.

    Again, that is not the case everywhere, but it can be a concern in some places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is a great point, on a mutli-use trail where uphill bike traffic is 2-3mph and downhill bike traffic is 15-20mph.... you have a 13-18mph speed differential.

    When the uphill riders are on an eBike and are now going 10mph uphill, the speed differential changes from 13-18mph to 23-28mph. That is when problems will arise. And that is not counting any equestrians or pedestrians that might be sharing the trail.

    On a directional trail system the extra speed for an eBike climbing is not an issue IMO.

    There is not one blanket answer for this in all riding area's.
    I ride up a directional multi use trail. As a expert level rider I have to adjust my speed to avoid conflict with other users. The saving grace is that most trail users here ride slow on the up hills. A inexperienced assist rider could ascend fast enough to cause all sorts of trouble.
    As I have said before a experienced rider using assist is not a problem. It is the new user that buy's speed.

  49. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlee View Post
    As I have said before a experienced rider using assist is not a problem. It is the new user that buy's speed.
    Yes you are correct in some ways, but it is also like saying ban all cars from the road as there are learner drivers out there who are inexperienced, or speedsters in high powered vehicles who go over the speedlimit. Why ban the majority of e-mtb'ers who abide by the rules and regulations impossed, due to a small number (who may not even exist yet, and where i'm from never seen any evidence they do) who cannot refrain from making an ass out of themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Yes you are correct in some ways, but it is also like saying ban all cars from the road as there are learner drivers out there who are inexperienced, or speedsters in high powered vehicles who go over the speedlimit. Why ban the majority of e-mtb'ers who abide by the rules and regulations impossed, due to a small number (who may not even exist yet, and where i'm from never seen any evidence they do) who cannot refrain from making an ass out of themselves.
    First off, they are never going to ban cars on roads due to the idiots. But if you've read enough of these moped forum threads, you'd realize that the concern here in the US is that mopeds being allowed on all the trails will create user conflicts and gets trails closed to actual mountain bikes.

    As far as following the rules, I have yet to see that since EVERY moped rider I've seen so far has been riding where they are illegal to ride. So based on my own personal experiences, the majority of moped riders can't follow the rules. Remember, we also have nearly 24 million people in Southern California alone so we're likely to have more user conflicts than NZ.
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    The analogy to automobiles doesn't work. With cars you have police to patrol roads. You can eventually get banned from driving. With trails, bad users get the trails shut down to all bikes not the individual like in cars.
    Also with cars you need to learn the rules before you can drive. With a ebike it's pay your money and have at it.

  52. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    First off, they are never going to ban cars on roads due to the idiots. But if you've read enough of these moped forum threads, you'd realize that the concern here in the US is that mopeds being allowed on all the trails will create user conflicts and gets trails closed to actual mountain bikes.

    As far as following the rules, I have yet to see that since EVERY moped rider I've seen so far has been riding where they are illegal to ride. So based on my own personal experiences, the majority of moped riders can't follow the rules. Remember, we also have nearly 24 million people in Southern California alone so we're likely to have more user conflicts than NZ.
    Ebikes, not mopeds please. We all understand the similarities, but in this particular forum, we maintain a certain distinctions. Can check the sticky at the top for details. Thanks.
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  53. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Ebikes, not mopeds please. We all understand the similarities, but in this particular forum, we maintain a certain distinctions. Can check the sticky at the top for details. Thanks.
    Different tires? Longer travel suspension? The distinction between ebikes and mopeds has been duly noted.

  54. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Yes you are correct in some ways, but it is also like saying ban all cars from the road as there are learner drivers out there who are inexperienced, or speedsters in high powered vehicles who go over the speedlimit.
    If you really want to stick to the Automobile analogy you need to remember that before one gets a DL they must take classes, practice under supervision and then take a written and practical exam AND pass that exam before the State grants them the rights to drive any vehicle on the roads.

    Are you suggesting that something similar be implemented for riding an eBike on dirt trails?
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    Quote Originally Posted by paetersen View Post
    Different tires? Longer travel suspension? The distinction between ebikes and mopeds has been duly noted.
    If you're referring to specific e-MTB tires, some MTB riders are using them since they're reportedly very durable. Otherwise, the e-MTB's discussed here are those classified as e-bicycles by the current Class 1, 2, & 3 system and are neither mopeds nor motorcycles. Further references which contain moped or motorcycle definitions will be expunged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    If you're referring to specific e-MTB tires, some MTB riders are using them since they're reportedly very durable. Otherwise, the e-MTB's discussed here are those classified as e-bicycles by the current Class 1, 2, & 3 system and are neither mopeds nor motorcycles. Further references which contain moped or motorcycle definitions will be expunged.
    Well, they are not mountain bikes, either, so please expunge any reference to mountain bikes, as well. Thank you.

  57. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Well, they are not mountain bikes, either, so please expunge any reference to mountain bikes, as well. Thank you.
    I make a point of keeping that distinction clear here too, constantly, so save your whining. And you're welcome.

    If you guys have some big burning desire to be mods yourselves, contact FC and talk to him about it. Don't complain and nitpick here; your wasting your and everyone else's time.
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  58. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I make a point of keeping that distinction clear here too, constantly, so save your whining. And you're welcome.

    If you guys have some big burning desire to be mods yourselves, contact FC and talk to him about it. Don't complain and nitpick here; your wasting your and everyone else's time.
    I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.

  59. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.
    I did this for you. Will save you a lot of that big waste of time,
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.
    If you don't like the way the forum is operated, there's a complaint process. Whining doesn't seem to be working for you, but keep it up; we need some comic relief.

  61. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.
    Because you've been doing zilch but complaining in this forum for a long time now and it's getting boring and annoying. If you think I'm going to waste time trying to justify anything to you, you're sadly mistaken.

    You don't like how I mod, go try to find someone who cares to complain to. Until then, if you don't change your crappy attitude, expect to get a whole lot unhappier about it.
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  62. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.

    Mb 24, there's always cat videos for time wasting, so awesome.

  63. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    What’s the obsession with the class 1, 2 and 3 system? Those classes mean absolutely nothing here in the states outside of California, and news flash, many of us don’t live in California, so why are you trying to push that crazy ass states laws on all of us?

    Also, there are several states that classify ebikes as mopeds so why is there an issue with calling ebikes mopeds if that is what they are legally classified as?
    Tahoe, you're very wrong. There are quite a few states that identify ebikes into 3 classes and that number is growing. It's pushed by People for Bikes in all of their new legislation recommendations.

    If you're going to pick a side, know your facts before you open your mouth or you are only adding to the BS involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Tahoe, you're very wrong. There are quite a few states that identify ebikes into 3 classes and that number is growing. It's pushed by People for Bikes in all of their new legislation recommendations.

    If you're going to pick a side, know your facts before you open your mouth or you are only adding to the BS involved.

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    Had no idea there were a few other states that use the same class system. However, it’s very few, so again, why focus so much on this class system when it effects so few? Also, looking into it, there are about 3 times as many states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motor vehicles, so why not accept that as a definition along the other definitions from other states like electric bicycle? Seems pretty hypocritical.

  65. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Had no idea there were a few other states that use the same class system. However, it’s very few, so again, why focus so much on this class system when it effects so few? Also, looking into it, there are about 3 times as many states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motor vehicles, so why not accept that as a definition along the other definitions from other states like electric bicycle? Seems pretty hypocritical.
    You do realize that California is the most populated state in the union and sets the trends for much legislation in the other 49 states.....

    Go ahead and discount what California is doing to your own detriment. If you do not think the leadership in your state is looking at what standards are being set in California.... you are wrong.
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    AFAICT from the graph on People for Bikes website, six states have adopted the "Class" system and about 20 states regulate e-bikes as bicycles, that is no license or insurance required. Pretty close to 50% total.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    AFAICT from the graph on People for Bikes website, six states have adopted the "Class" system and about 20 states regulate e-bikes as bicycles, that is no license or insurance required. Pretty close to 50% total.
    Why are you talking about license and insurance on a mountain bike website? Those two things have no relevance to mountain biking. Also the same graph show over 20 states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motorized vehicles, so why can’t we also call ebikes what these states legally call them?

    As for the class system, what does that have to do with moutnainbiking? I can see that being relevant on the commuter forum maybe, but as your favorite bike website has pointed out, the class system is only relevant to the state’s vehicle code “and where e-bikes are allowed to go on the road, bike lanes, bike paths, or other paved or hard-surface bicycle infrastructure. The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths; eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are; and on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions.”

    That is a quote from the people for bikes website. So again, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with mountain biking and why are so many here obsessed with this class system on a mountain biking web site when it has no relevance when actually mountain biking?

  68. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    So again, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with mountain biking and why are so many here obsessed with this class system on a mountain biking web site when it has no relevance when actually mountain biking?

    Ummm...did you miss the fact that you're posting in a dedicated e-bike subforum?
    Yup, it's true!

    Hopefully that helps clear up your confusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Ummm...did you miss the fact that you're posting in a dedicated e-bike subforum?
    Yup, it's true!

    Hopefully that helps clear up your confusion.
    You're welcome.
    Thank you mofo, that was a dumb question considering there is a commuter forum and other non, mountain biking forums on this site.

    I will reframe the question with regards to the title of the thread, so, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with riding ebikes on mountain bike trails and why is this class system brought up when discussin ebike access on non-motorized trails like the ones called out by people for bikes?

  70. #470
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    I would assume because it's a very clear and simple way to distinguish exactly what level of power and method of actuation is being discussed.
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  71. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Why are you talking about license and insurance on a mountain bike website? Those two things have no relevance to mountain biking. Also the same graph show over 20 states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motorized vehicles, so why can’t we also call ebikes what these states legally call them?

    As for the class system, what does that have to do with moutnainbiking? I can see that being relevant on the commuter forum maybe, but as your favorite bike website has pointed out, the class system is only relevant to the state’s vehicle code “and where e-bikes are allowed to go on the road, bike lanes, bike paths, or other paved or hard-surface bicycle infrastructure. The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths; eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are; and on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions.”

    That is a quote from the people for bikes website. So again, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with mountain biking and why are so many here obsessed with this class system on a mountain biking web site when it has no relevance when actually mountain biking?
    Why don't you acquaint yourself with the rules? This site defines Class 1 e-MTB's as e-bikes. Also, some states that define e-bikes as "bikes" (we know they're different) allow them on MTB trails, some don't and some have mixed prohibitions depending on the area being considered. Of course, you're welcome to start your own site and make up any rules you want. Just don't try it again here.

  72. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Thank you mofo, that was a dumb question considering there is a commuter forum and other non, mountain biking forums on this site.

    I will reframe the question with regards to the title of the thread, so, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with riding ebikes on mountain bike trails and why is this class system brought up when discussin ebike access on non-motorized trails like the ones called out by people for bikes?
    Well, CA allows class 1 E bikes on some of their trails systems for example. As do some other states. Read the stickies at the start of the section. It's a way of having a discussion, without debating the " facts" ad nauseam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    This site defines Class 1 e-MTB's as e-bikes. Also, some states that define e-bikes as "bikes" (we know they're different) allow them on MTB trails,
    Not according to people for bikes. They say “The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences.”

    Are you saying there are states that allow a particular class of ebikes on all trails that allow regular bikes within the states boarders?

  74. #474
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    There are a number of existing threads around here somewhere with more specific information re: where e-bikes are allowed/not allowed.
    I'd suggest doing a little digging rather than trying to start again from square one in this thread. Can start here:

    State Rules regarding ebikes on Trails
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  75. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Not according to people for bikes. They say “The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences.”

    Are you saying there are states that allow a particular class of ebikes on all trails that allow regular bikes within the states boarders?
    Lol, people for bikes? You mean the org. that is sponsored by bike bike makers to try to get e bikes everywhere via legislation? And yes, road rules usually do not apply to off road multi use paths. MA rider here. Most states have such a mix of state, federal and county land areas, add in conservation areas and private stuff as well. Add in varying rules and regs with only apply in each specific area, = kind of a mess in regards to e bike use and rules. Check out CA, they seem to be the leader in some areas for off road e bike use, start there. And best to go state by state.

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    PFB is an industry trade group with a stated objective of unifying e-bike rules for bike paths nationwide (two different PFB groups reiterated that to me, one at Interbike and one at an e-bike expo), but some think they are also trying to gain e-MTB access to trails, and those individuals may be right.

  77. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Not according to people for bikes. They say “The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences.”

    Are you saying there are states that allow a particular class of ebikes on all trails that allow regular bikes within the states boarders?
    No one is suggesting that Vehicle Code applies to electric bikes.

    That said, some of the definitions used in vehicle code have been adopted by land managers to manage ebikes on dirt trials......

    Please read a bit more in this forum before making a fool of yourself.
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  78. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No one is suggesting that Vehicle Code applies to electric bikes.

    That said, some of the definitions used in vehicle code have been adopted by land managers to manage ebikes on dirt trials......

    Please read a bit more in this forum before making a fool of yourself.
    Too late

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  79. #479
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    Well, there IS a lot of water under the bridge to catch up on...
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    As batteries get better and better they might approach a heat engine in hp per weight. Practical electric bikes are rather new and as information increases about there uses and safety a more informative picture will come clear.

    A lot of ya here are anal about your fitness and discipline in life and see ebikes and their riders something to be rid of. Just like the jocks and motorheads in school..at least in my youth.

    My issue is it might bring more personal issues to the trails. Just like when atvs overtook motorcycles in popularity around here...an atv has a place for the 6 pack. It is easier to ride high on an ebike or might draw undesirables to the trail for that reason.

    Ebike trails should be one way and must use road rules to be safe if I had my way.
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  81. #481
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    Ebikes will be the majority in 10 years. Live with it.

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    I'm good with that..I have made several weedwacker assisted bikes and they were a ball..
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  83. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    CA has a Class 1 rating for e-bikes that supposedly allows them in the same areas as
    p-bikes...
    [QUOTE=Harryman;
    ...Class 1 and 2 are allowed except where expressly prohibited...
    [/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes....
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    That's the whole intent of the CA law making Class 1 ebikes the legal equals of pushbikes, it allows another sport to commingle with the existing ones by keeping the speeds and trail impact the same as the existing users.
    Quote Originally Posted by PinoyMTBer View Post
    Woohoo! "CA passed an assembly bill (AB-1096) that Class 1,2 & 3 electric bicycles were taken out of the category of motorized vehicles."
    Quote Originally Posted by PinoyMTBer View Post
    California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles...
    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    E-Bikers in California

    California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW. So all the e haters are proven wrong LOL perfect!
    Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Ogg View Post
    Seems pretty straightforward. Class3 are prohibited on trails, Class 1 and 2 prohibited when told so. In other words allowed to ride unless explicitly told otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    geez guys,, the new law creates new classifications of electric bicycles, that are not considered motorized. Class 1 and 2 can be prohibited by ordinance..
    This appears to mean that any existing laws banning motorized bicycles does not ban Class 1 and 2 electric bicycles as they were not specifically mentioned. So until the ordinance is reviewed and rewritten class 1 and 2 electric bikes would be allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I believe this to be correct, the law also allows managers to ban Class 1 and 2 if they choose, but the new default in CA is to permit Class 1 and 2 unless specifically excluded...
    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    So if there is no sign on a trail it must be ok for e bikes then? right? So any trail that doesn't have a no e bike marker is now legal to ride now!! So if a trail dosent have a no e bike sign then we can assume e bikes are ok .
    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    We'd be riding that in CA since a Class 1 or 2 e-MTB isn't a "motorized" vehicle, it's an electric bicycle by state law. The places that want to ban electric bicycles (and I have encountered two) specifically state "no electric bicycles".
    —————————————————————————————————————-

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No one is suggesting that Vehicle Code applies to electric bikes....Please read a bit more in this forum before making a fool of yourself.
    Seriously? Pretty sure the above posts are doing exactly that and none have been deleted or modified... looking at you “super moderator”,

    Also, some moderator did have time to delete my my post pointing out that the class system is pretty much not relevant out side of Cali (*which there are actually 5 other states that use this) and there are something like 24 states that legally consider ebikes mopeds or motorized vehicles. Seems the scales are tilted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That said, some of the definitions used in vehicle code have been adopted by land managers to manage ebikes on dirt trials......
    Great! On like what, .0000001% of trails (probably needs a lot more zeros). How about only talking about the class system when it’s relevent, as in when you are talking specifically about those very few trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Well, there IS a lot of water under the bridge to catch up on...
    No shit. Plus just skimming through this thread, or forum for that matter, it sure as shit doesn’t seem like all agree that you can’t just ride a class 1 ebike anywhere. Mods should be deleting or modifying (get it) any post that’s suggests the class system determines where ebikes can be ridden on non-motorized trails.

  84. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post

    No shit. Plus just skimming through this thread, or forum for that matter, it sure as shit doesn’t seem like all agree that you can’t just ride a class 1 ebike anywhere. Mods should be deleting or modifying (get it) any post that’s suggests the class system determines where ebikes can be ridden on non-motorized trails.
    In some places, it does. Some people live in those places. They may even communicate on the internet and share their experiences. The same rules don't apply everywhere.
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  85. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    In some places, it does. Some people live in those places. They may even communicate on the internet and share their experiences. The same rules don't apply everywhere.
    Isn’t it the land managers who determine what can be used on the land they manage?

  86. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Isn’t it the land managers who determine what can be used on the land they manage?
    Sometimes.

    If you're looking for a black-or-white, one-size-fits-all, master determination that covers the entire planet, you're just not going to find it. Simply not how things work.
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  87. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerort View Post
    Ebikes will be the majority in 10 years. Live with it.
    Quite a clear crystal ball? And where they are currently illegal? The oh so fast moving state and federal rules and regulation. YRMV.

  88. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    I'm good with that..I have made several weedwacker assisted bikes and they were a ball..
    i've seen some pics of a hand push rotary mower replacing the front wheel? Like that?

  89. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Sometimes.
    What places does the class system override the land managers ability to ban ebikes?

    Looking through this thread and the whole forum, there are countless posts saying that california is one of those places. The mods are just letting that continue, so then Cali must be one of those places your talking about that allows ebikes anywhere p-bikes can go, right?

  90. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    What places does the class system override the land managers ability to ban ebikes?

    Looking through this thread and the whole forum, there are countless posts saying that california is one of those places. The mods are just letting that continue, so then Cali must be one of those places your talking about that allows ebikes anywhere p-bikes can go, right?
    If you're interested in finding out a lot of specifics about what the laws are, I suggest research.

    If you're interested in complaining about moderation, I suggest finding somewhere else to do it.
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  91. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    If you're interested in finding out a lot of specifics about what the laws are, I suggest research.
    Ok. Like what? Maybe do what most people would do and type in something like “where you can and cannot legally ride e-mtbs” on google?

    Hmmm, first link gets us to a web site about mountain biking that shows statement after statement, in many different places, from many different people saying class 1 ebikes are allowed to go anywhere pedal bikes can go in California and they even site sources with specific language to back this up. Good thing that website is there to clear things up

  92. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Ok. Like what? Maybe do what most people would do and type in something like “where you can and cannot legally ride e-mtbs” on google?

    Hmmm, first link gets us to a web site about mountain biking that shows statement after statement, in many different places, from many different people saying class 1 ebikes are allowed to go anywhere pedal bikes can go in California and they even site sources with specific language to back this up. Good thing that website is there to clear things up
    CA has their own forums. All the state parks and fed agencies list the rules and regs. Local stuff? Check the web site for each area. Trying to ride the whole state of Cali? Try this, look up the park where you are going to ride, doesn't seem that hard.

  93. #493
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    Life tip - don't believe every single thing you read in an online forum.

    You're welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    i've seen some pics of a hand push rotary mower replacing the front wheel? Like that?
    Find steel frame. Weld pivot pin where rear rim brake caliper would go. 1.5 inch rubber roller on output shaft. Roller rides on wheel. Lever is pushed down to lift motor off wheel. Fabricated motor bracket slides over pin for pivot.

    Had a 3hp 2 stroke once on a bmx bike that would do 30mph..then a dog ran in front of me...couple of days healing.
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    E bikes on your trails?

    I’ll do what I can to let land mangers know that I am an avid mountain biker and feel e-bikes do not belong on non-motorized trails for the glaringly obvious reason they they have a motor.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    ^^^ This. I don't understand how the distinction can't easily be made between e-bikes and real bikes. A car is a car, regardless of the fuel type, because they all have a motor. Bikes do not, e-bikes do. Non-motorized trail means just that. The end-runaround with different classifications only makes for more ill will.
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  97. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Quite a clear crystal ball? And where they are currently illegal? The oh so fast moving state and federal rules and regulation. YRMV.
    You all sound like the people in this article:
    1900-1930: The years of driving dangerously
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  98. #498
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    We've been going through the "it has a motor" monthly or since this sub-forum started.
    Guess what?
    1) We know they have a motor.
    2) We know they're different.
    3) We know they're a blast in their environment.
    4) We know they're allowed on MTB trails in some areas.
    5) We know some individuals will keep iterating the obvious.

  99. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerort View Post
    You all sound like the people in this article:
    1900-1930: The years of driving dangerously
    Predicting the future? Sure e bikes are here. They make great commuters, been thinking about getting one. You make it seem like everyone wants a motorized, heavy bike? Not. I'm for lighter, human power and get away from technology while spending time in the woods. Peace, quiet , birds and such. Lots of laws regarding trail access and so many variations on state, federal and local properties. You think they will all just vanish? Ha.

  100. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Predicting the future? Sure e bikes are here. They make great commuters, been thinking about getting one. You make it seem like everyone wants a motorized, heavy bike? Not. I'm for lighter, human power and get away from technology while spending time in the woods. Peace, quiet , birds and such. Lots of laws regarding trail access and so many variations on state, federal and local properties. You think they will all just vanish? Ha.
    Agree with your points about being in the woods, tranquility, and all that other fluff.

    However, yes, with the aging population more and more people will purchase them. Large manufacturers are not spending large portions of their R&D to develop something that is not going to grow.

    Also, lighter e-bikes are coming. Look at Focus, BMC.

    Ever hear of the cell phone? They use to come in a backpack. Funny right?

    E-bikes are here to stay and will grow in popularity. Also, don't kid yourself, this country caters to the minority.

    Whoever thought that pot would be legal 10 years ago? Yes, laws change.

    You can complain about the "motors", weight, trail damage (funny one), danger and all that, but if you keep being naive, you will only be complaining more in the coming years.
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