Poll: Vote for your opinion.

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  1. #1
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    For or Against Pedal Assist E-MTBs in the USA

    Vote for your opinion.

  2. #2
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    Vbrakes.
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  3. #3
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    You'd need to specify what spec of pedal assist emtb you're referring to before I could vote.

    250w 15.5 mph
    250w 20 mph
    750w 20 mph

  4. #4
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    250w 20mph is my vote.

  5. #5
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    not a very good poll. left one important option out.

    "emtb's should be allowed on motorized trails or bike paths only"

    It's really not a matter of all or nothing. emtbs have some access. They currently just don't have "ALL" access.

  6. #6
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    Yeah, there's not enough info here to vote. I'd vote as follows:
    -For access to 100% for 15.5mph/250w (EU class 1) limited bikes.
    -For some access for 20mph/250w limited bikes.
    -Against access for all bikes over 20mph/250w limit.

    I guess I'll cast a vote for "only with disabilities" given that the current US class 1 standard (20mph, 750w) is well beyond what I think is justified if we want to maintain the existing user experience for everyone else.

    -Walt

  7. #7
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    I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.
    Bicycles don't have motors.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.
    what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?
    I could have swore I was in a mtb forum..... was I wrong?

  10. #10
    no motor, no way
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    The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.
    Of all the paths you take in life, make sure that most of them are dirt.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?
    My bad, it should have been "thread" not "forum".
    Bicycles don't have motors.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.
    Its a poll... too many variables. I wouldn't read much into it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.
    And perhaps almost the same if the poll were posted to broader audience on Reddit.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.
    Because you don't like the results thus far.

    You wouldn't be interested in seeing the results if the poll were taken on a technology forum, e.g. Anandtech.

    As popular as MTB has become, it's still a rather obscure sport to most.

  15. #15
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    Well, I tried to post a similar poll in the general firum, but it automatically went to the ReCycle forum. Interesting.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Well, I tried to post a similar poll in the general firum, but it automatically went to the ReCycle forum. Interesting.
    For or Against Pedal Assist E-MTBs in the USA-screen-shot-2018-01-14-2.19.32-pm.png

    Classy.


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2018-01-14 at 2.19.32 PM.png 
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    Classy.

    Damn right. I'll say that to your face if I have the opportunity. I wouldn't even hide behind my "friends" by tattling. I prefer to settle my differences behind closed doors, you know, man to man.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.
    Me too, which is why I tried to create a similar poll in the general forum. Apparently, admin thinks e-mtbs are too different from mountain bikes to discuss in the mountain bikes sections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?
    I'm not sure, anymore. Either way, you know exactly what he meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    I could have swore I was in a mtb forum..... was I wrong?
    If you want to argue semantics like klurejr, then maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.
    Completely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    And perhaps almost the same if the poll were posted to broader audience on Reddit.
    No. There would be an overwhelming amount of "I don't cares", but most mountain bikers with any awareness of trail issues and user conflicts would be wary of e-mtbs.

  19. #19
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    One must remember that the 1st amendment may not apply when participating on privately held interwebz forums; that is as it should be.

    Check this thread: Thread Sanitation
    Bicycles don't have motors.

  20. #20
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    I realize that. It appears obvious that mtbr.com believes that e-mtbs are so different from mountain bikes that the mere mention of them does not belong in the mountain bike sections.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Damn right. I'll say that to your face if I have the opportunity.
    Yea I'm sure you would, Mr. Internet Chest Thumper.

  22. #22
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    Nevermind. I'm trying to be a better person. In fact, I'm pretty much done with emtbr.com. Try not to destroy trail access for those people that actually put in the hard work and understand the challenges to trail access. I'll show myself out.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I realize that. It appears obvious that mtbr.com believes that e-mtbs are so different from mountain bikes that the mere mention of them does not belong in the mountain bike sections.
    One day mtbr will evolve into emtbr. Not because they probably want to, but because to stay relevant they will have to. That day is still far away, but not as far one might think.

  24. #24
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    Wow 73 whole votes! And almost half for the full monty with more on the fence. Polls don't mean poo at those type of numbers. All it says here is that people on an e mtb forum are for e mtb's and there are a few that are against them. You can tell that by reading any thread on here.

    The proof will be how much market share they eventually shake out at in the future and where they are going to be allowed to travel. And for that you need a crystal ball, not a poll.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    One day mtbr will evolve into emtbr. Not because they probably want to, but because to stay relevant they will have to. That day is still far away, but not as far one might think.
    Bikes don't have motors. Evolve? Not.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    My bad, it should have been "thread" not "forum".
    Now I see what you are getting at, you meant the results would be different if this poll was posted in the General Section of mtbr as opposed to the eBike section of mtbr.

    mtbr.com is a mountain biking forum that has various sections for the different aspects of mountain biking. One of those sections is for eBikes.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.
    yup.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Bikes don't have motors. Evolve? Not.
    In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.

    Itís happening!

  29. #29
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    Seriously, you really think everyone will want a motor on their bike?

    So how do you explain people choosing to hike when they can ride, choosing to pedal when they could have a moto, etc...

    Just because you want motor assist doesn't mean everyone wants motor assist.

    Like many people have said on this forum: "If I wanted a motor, I'd get a motorcycle".

    Another way to understand demand is the idea that adding a motor/battery will add cost, complexity, and weight. These add ons will turn off a fair number of riders.

    It ain't rocket science.

    This was a dumb poll, it demonstrated nothing more than what most of us could figure out from reading this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.

    Itís happening!

  30. #30
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    "Pedal Assist" is a weird way to label an e-bike; makes it sound like the rider pedals to add assistance to the motor. Actually kind of how I ride Class 2 when the hill's too steep/load too heavy and I need to pedal to keep going forward. Honestly; e-bikes are "motor assisted" pedaling devices.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Seriously, you really think everyone will want a motor on their bike?

    So how do you explain people choosing to hike when they can ride, choosing to pedal when they could have a moto, etc...

    Just because you want motor assist doesn't mean everyone wants motor assist.

    Like many people have said on this forum: "If I wanted a motor, I'd get a motorcycle".

    Another way to understand demand is the idea that adding a motor/battery will add cost, complexity, and weight. These add ons will turn off a fair number of riders.

    It ain't rocket science.

    This was a dumb poll, it demonstrated nothing more than what most of us could figure out from reading this forum.
    First off, I donít ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, itís not about what either of us prefer to ride. Itís about what the consumer wants. Iíve made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. Theyíre going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.

  32. #32
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    Why is it that most e-bike supporters that claim e-mtbs are the future and the evolution of the mountain bike are new to the sport, or at least new to these forums? 樂. Sorry, I got sidetracked on my way out.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    First off, I donít ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, itís not about what either of us prefer to ride. Itís about what the consumer wants. Iíve made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. Theyíre going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.
    As I've said before and Nurse Ben said again, motorcycles have been around a long time yet many of us choose to ride bicycles. Heck, a lot of folks on this site do ride motorcycles AND they still ride bicycles. For a lot of us, it's not just about the downhills; we don't ride up hill just for the chance to go down hill. People still backpack even though there are plenty of campsites you can drive right up to, or pull your RV up to.

    None of us actually know the future of ebikes in the US.
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  34. #34
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    Being a savy investor does not make you a prophet, nor does it make you wise about every industry.

    What is the market for ebikes, ie how many additional users would own a bike if it's assisted and will those users buy an ebike if one is available?

    In many ways, your market is already saturated; current bike owners, many of whom do not have the money or desire to buy another bike, ebike or non ebike. Your potential market is in upgrades and new adoptors such as people who don't currently have a bike.

    Ebikes are more expensive, heavier, and complicated than a non ebike, which will prevent them from being anything more than a niche, popular with certain populations (physically impaired/limited), but they will they no more dominate bicycle sales than motorcycles dominate "bike" sales.

    Keep in mind one very important reality: Bike riding is a niche to begin with, most people don't own a bike. Most people do not exercise. The percentage of people who do outside activity is decreasing over time. In other words, you have a decreasing market size, as well as a niche within a niche.

    This ^ is why I'm not that worried about ebikes taking over the trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    First off, I donít ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, itís not about what either of us prefer to ride. Itís about what the consumer wants. Iíve made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. Theyíre going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Being a savy investor does not make you a prophet, nor does it make you wise about every industry.

    What is the market for ebikes, ie how many additional users would own a bike if it's assisted and will those users buy an ebike if one is available?

    In many ways, your market is already saturated; current bike owners, many of whom do not have the money or desire to buy another bike, ebike or non ebike. Your potential market is in upgrades and new adoptors such as people who don't currently have a bike.

    Ebikes are more expensive, heavier, and complicated than a non ebike, which will prevent them from being anything more than a niche, popular with certain populations (physically impaired/limited), but they will they no more dominate bicycle sales than motorcycles dominate "bike" sales.

    Keep in mind one very important reality: Bike riding is a niche to begin with, most people don't own a bike. Most people do not exercise. The percentage of people who do outside activity is decreasing over time. In other words, you have a decreasing market size, as well as a niche within a niche.

    This ^ is why I'm not that worried about ebikes taking over the trails.
    Pretty much.

    While ebikes will boom in other places in the world, specifically as transportation, I have a hard time seeing non bike riding Mr & Mrs Joe Average ever coming out of the indoors to excercise on a bicycle even if it has a motor in the US, since in almost all areas of the country, we have a lousy bike infrastructure, and long distances between the places everyone drives to in suburbia. People are going to continue to drive because they have far to go, they have kids and stuff to haul, and they really don't like being outside except on nice days. For some segments of the population, they make a ton of sense, but it's minor really compared to the majority. They will sell as a recreational toy, but not in massive numbers, they're fairly expensive, along the lines of @$800-1000 for a marginal bike path worthy ebike.

    The main thing holding back etmb sales will be access, and access on public property isn't driven by consumer demand. At all. Access may grow in the US, but it also might very well shrink, it's difficult to predict IMO, I think there are problems waiting in the wings that the industry has enabled and ignored.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Being a savy investor does not make you a prophet, nor does it make you wise about every industry.

    What is the market for ebikes, ie how many additional users would own a bike if it's assisted and will those users buy an ebike if one is available?

    In many ways, your market is already saturated; current bike owners, many of whom do not have the money or desire to buy another bike, ebike or non ebike. Your potential market is in upgrades and new adoptors such as people who don't currently have a bike.

    Ebikes are more expensive, heavier, and complicated than a non ebike, which will prevent them from being anything more than a niche, popular with certain populations (physically impaired/limited), but they will they no more dominate bicycle sales than motorcycles dominate "bike" sales.

    Keep in mind one very important reality: Bike riding is a niche to begin with, most people don't own a bike. Most people do not exercise. The percentage of people who do outside activity is decreasing over time. In other words, you have a decreasing market size, as well as a niche within a niche.

    This ^ is why I'm not that worried about ebikes taking over the trails.
    The market is not saturated. Thats an opinion not a fact.

    Ebikes are not complicated. Theyíre actually pretty straightforward. As for expensive? Maybe now, but not for long. Heavier? Not for long. The Levo is 50lbs, pivot now has a burly e mtb at 43lbs. They said they will be sub 40lbs very soon. Also, Anyone can convert a regular bike to an e bike with pedal assist for $600.

    Youíre right about biking being a niche. Thatís what makes the future of e bikes even more of a threat to the pedal bike as we know it. It wonít make it too difficult to become the majority. Every manufacturer is now producing an e mtb or soon will be. Theyíre not building them to collect dust. They have a good idea of whatís coming.

    And youíre also right about most people donít exercise and exercise decreases over time. Thatís exactly where the pedal assist bike will thrive. Itís the perfect tool to get the less active off the sofa and into the outdoors. Not too mention those with injuries, older folks, handicapped etc...

    Right now I pedal without assist., one day Father Time will catch up to me and make pedaling without asssit difficult. Itís nice to know I have an alternative to keep me active and enjoying the outdoors along with the happiness of being on a bike.

  37. #37
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    Growth (or the opposite) will be interesting to follow. If I were predicting, it would be the middle of the extreme opinions here. I have a hard time imagining that all of the major and most minor companies got it wrong by flooding the market with new e-models. Needless to say, I voted for PAS, but if it doesn't happen, I've still had three great years of e-MTB, and the Good Lord willing, many more to come.

  38. #38
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    It does seems like there are a lot of players getting into it, bicycle manufacturers, new companies and a couple of motorcycle manufacturers; a lot more than the market will be able to sustain. Decent eMTBs won't come down all that much in price, look how expensive decent mountain bikes are. As I've said before, it's the cheap ebikes and do-it-your-self ebikes that really worry me, I doubt many diy'ers will be too worried about meeting regulations.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    It does seems like there are a lot of players getting into it, bicycle manufacturers, new companies and a couple of motorcycle manufacturers; a lot more than the market will be able to sustain. Decent eMTBs won't come down all that much in price, look how expensive decent mountain bikes are. As I've said before, it's the cheap ebikes and do-it-your-self ebikes that really worry me, I doubt many diy'ers will be too worried about meeting regulations.
    Good point about DIY; there are no regulations yet, and I doubt there'll be any for awhile. Then, when the regulations are adopted, they will be difficult to administer. Maybe of interest; of the numerous e-MTB's that I've encountered dirt riding, only two (mine and my wife's) were DIY.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Decent eMTBs won't come down all that much in price, look how expensive decent mountain bikes are.

    Why do you think price will keep them from being popular? Every mtb I see on the trail seems to be $2,000+ so I don't see why some people wouldn't pay the same for an electrified option. Prices will come down as the technology matures and the sport develops.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    First off, I donít ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, itís not about what either of us prefer to ride. Itís about what the consumer wants. Iíve made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. Theyíre going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.
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  42. #42
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    Most of America sits their fat asses on the couch or in their car all day, and you are all worked up on whether or not eBikes are bicycles or not.

    Just ride your own damn bicycle and have fun doing it.

    I haven't been on a racetrack (motorcycle) in about a year and a half.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    First off, I donít ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, itís not about what either of us prefer to ride. Itís about what the consumer wants. Iíve made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. Theyíre going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.
    Lol, being an "investor" now a days is like walking down the street and finding a winning lotto ticket on every corner. "I too" have made a lot of money as an "investor"... That doesn't make me Nostradamus. Good luck when the market crashes in a year.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.

    Itís happening!
    Is this one of the facts you talk about?

    This is one of the most asinine statements I have read on this subject. Little kids, people that ride for exercise, real mountain bikers will not be riding motors, ever.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Why do you think price will keep them from being popular? Every mtb I see on the trail seems to be $2,000+ so I don't see why some people wouldn't pay the same for an electrified option. Prices will come down as the technology matures and the sport develops.
    True, but it's still a high price of entry for a lot of people. Seems like a lot of mountain bikers start off with a low price bike, I know I did. Which is why I've mentioned a fear of cheap Chinese ebikes hitting the trails.
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.

    Itís happening!
    Maybe most of the e-bikes you see but I'll be riding a MTB with the other mountain bikers.
    Bicycles don't have motors.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    True, but it's still a high price of entry for a lot of people. Seems like a lot of mountain bikers start off with a low price bike, I know I did. Which is why I've mentioned a fear of cheap Chinese ebikes hitting the trails.

    I started off cheap too but the market is changing IMO, mountain biking is the new golf and those guys aren't fooling around with $1000 rigs. I foresee ebikes being the next "upgrade" and replacing someone's $5,000 mountain bike rather than it being an entire new sport with new participants.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I started off cheap too .
    Opposite for me, brought a Levo, and the Mrs loved it as well, so brought her a Magnum MI5. Both are very well used.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    but the market is changing IMO, mountain biking is the new golf and they aren't fooling around with $1000 rigs. I foresee ebikes being the next "upgrade" and replacing someone's $5,000 mountain bike rather than it being an entire new sport with new participants.
    I agree with this your statement J.B. Everyone that have test ridden either of our Emtbs have been very impressed, including some die hard riders. Several people that I have met on the trails who I have let test ride my levo stated that they would consider an emtb when they next upgraded.

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    Don't have even a foggy idea what's going to happen 3 years from now, but I know I'll have a new bike by then, and that it's a safe bet that I'd go through 4+ new bikes 10 years from now. Many chances to consider options when they come up. xD

    For all I know, VR could take off and we'll be having fun on "hoverboards", tethered to some linkage arm, in the comfort of our homes, and bikes could simply be fashionable novelties. The age of having everything delivered to us, including the adventure of exploring the outside world...
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Is this one of the facts you talk about?

    This is one of the most asinine statements I have read on this subject. Little kids, people that ride for exercise, real mountain bikers will not be riding motors, ever.
    What exactly is a ďreal mountain biker?Ē Lol. This oughta be good.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    Most of America sits their fat asses on the couch or in their car all day, and you are all worked up on whether or not eBikes are bicycles or not.

    Just ride your own damn bicycle and have fun doing it.

    I haven't been on a racetrack (motorcycle) in about a year and a half.
    Thereís always going to be those who canít ride their own damn bicycle without worrying about what others are riding. Misery loves company.

  52. #52
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    Not sure what the uproar is about e-bikes. I have no problem with e-bikes. The older I get, the more nagging injuries start to surface. The fact is, that there will be a time when everyone will not be able to ride up the rides that want to. E-bikes just allow people to extend their mountain biking for much longer. To say that they damage trails more is hogwash. I have seen a few e-bikes on the trails and didn't really notice their were e-bikes until I caught eye of the frame. However, I do think that if you are healthy and able, you should ride a non-ebike just for good fitness and health.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Thereís always going to be those who canít ride their own damn bicycle without worrying about what others are riding. Misery loves company.
    It's tough to ride your own damn bicycle when you lose trail access.

    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    Not sure what the uproar is about e-bikes. I have no problem with e-bikes. The older I get, the more nagging injuries start to surface. The fact is, that there will be a time when everyone will not be able to ride up the rides that want to. E-bikes just allow people to extend their mountain biking for much longer. To say that they damage trails more is hogwash. I have seen a few e-bikes on the trails and didn't really notice their were e-bikes until I caught eye of the frame. However, I do think that if you are healthy and able, you should ride a non-ebike just for good fitness and health.
    I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist. The bikes are heavier and require more strength to actually move around on a mountain bike trail. According to the e-supporters here, all they do is allow them to keep up with their more fit buddies.

    As for trail damage, nobody is saying e-bikes (in their current guise) cause more trail damage. If you guys would actually read other threads, it's about unregulated and/or illegally modified e-peds. It's the same discussion every time a new e-poster joins the forum without actually knowing what they are talking about. Somehow, aliikane has missed every previous discussion about e-bikes since 2005.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    What exactly is a ďreal mountain biker?Ē Lol. This oughta be good.
    This is easy. A real mountain biker is a biker that rides a real mountain bike.

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    Bottom line for me is that eMTB is a blast, something some e-'s seem to ignore. Not as tough as I was, but that doesn't matter since my wife and I gleefully ride MTB, occasionally eMTB, together. Have never encountered the infamous "rebel with 10,000 watts of power" or any instance where eMTB compromised MTB activity, and would stop riding eMTB if there was any indication of trouble (forums excepted).

  55. #55
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    102 people have voted now, so we are starting to get some semblance of what some of the users on the site think about this.

    Considering over the last 6 months there have been on average 250 new users sign up on mtbr each month, this poll still has not scratched the surface of the user base, probably just the small group that visit the ebike section.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist. The bikes are heavier and require more strength to actually move around on a mountain bike trail. According to the e-supporters here, all they do is allow them to keep up with their more fit buddies.
    Maybe not on technical trail riding, but my grandfather was able to ride for a good 4 or 5 years after he no longer felt comfortable on a normal bike using an e bike. I don't think it would apply to this poll, but they can be a big benefit for elderly commuting and mobility.

    As far as trails go, I'm dead against them. Go ride trails open to motorcycles if you need a motor on your bike.
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  57. #57
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    I didn't vote because I thought the wording was poor. Mountain bikes don't have 100% trail access, why should electric bikes? I guess the second option is the closest match for me though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist.
    My sister has Cystic Fibrosis and limited lung capacity that comes along with it.
    Pedal assist would work well for her if she ever decides it's something she wants to try.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    It's tough to ride your own damn bicycle when you lose trail access.
    Assholes will cause that, not eBikes. Put the blame where it belongs. I ride every week with someone on an eBike, he's the only one. You would not know he was on an eBike if you didn't look closely at his bike (we ride at night after work). His bike has nothing to do with it. He also rides about 15 miles each way on the road to get to the trails instead of driving.

    Granted, when possible, I take the commuter train to do the same, an option I have that he doesn't.



    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist.
    You've lived a sheltered life.


    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    This is easy. A real mountain biker is a biker that rides a real mountain bike.
    What's a "real mountain bike"?

  60. #60
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    I vote for eMTBs on eMTB trails.

    I vote against eMTBs on MTB trails.

    -F
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My sister has Cystic Fibrosis and limited lung capacity that comes along with it.
    Pedal assist would work well for her if she ever decides it's something she wants to try.
    Would riding a 45 pound e-bike on mountain bike trails be a good option for her?

    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    Maybe not on technical trail riding, but my grandfather was able to ride for a good 4 or 5 years after he no longer felt comfortable on a normal bike using an e bike. I don't think it would apply to this poll, but they can be a big benefit for elderly commuting and mobility.

    As far as trails go, I'm dead against them. Go ride trails open to motorcycles if you need a motor on your bike.
    I should have clarified that I was referring to mountain bike trails. I agree that e-bikes are absolutely perfect for commuting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    Assholes will cause that, not eBikes. Put the blame where it belongs. I ride every week with someone on an eBike, he's the only one. You would not know he was on an eBike if you didn't look closely at his bike (we ride at night after work). His bike has nothing to do with it. He also rides about 15 miles each way on the road to get to the trails instead of driving.

    Granted, when possible, I take the commuter train to do the same, an option I have that he doesn't.



    You've lived a sheltered life.




    What's a "real mountain bike"?
    I have been fortunate, but you didn't provide anything to convince me otherwise. I have seen a couple e-bikes fly by me on climbs, and I'm happy I wasn't riding down at the speeds they were climbing.

    A real mountain bike is a bicycle designed for offroad cycling. Mopeds are not included.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    It's tough to ride your own damn bicycle when you lose trail access.



    I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist. The bikes are heavier and require more strength to actually move around on a mountain bike trail. According to the e-supporters here, all they do is allow them to keep up with their more fit buddies.

    As for trail damage, nobody is saying e-bikes (in their current guise) cause more trail damage. If you guys would actually read other threads, it's about unregulated and/or illegally modified e-peds. It's the same discussion every time a new e-poster joins the forum without actually knowing what they are talking about. Somehow, aliikane has missed every previous discussion about e-bikes since 2005.



    This is easy. A real mountain biker is a biker that rides a real mountain bike.

    How can you comment on a pas e bike if youíre never ridden one? Itís always concerning when you hear critics speak of them, yet they have no experience on them. To answer your question, yes they are slightly heavier. But letís not act like theyíre 200lb bikes. Weíre talking 15 lbs. They do not require more strength to handle. They are very handicapped, elderly friendly.

    You seriously canít think of a single injury, disability or age related event that would require a pedal asssist bike? What?!?!?! Iím not even going to respond to such rubbish. No disrespect, but thatís just plain ole ignorant.

    And btw..... thereís no such thing as a ďreal mountain bikerĒ. Only mountain bikers exist.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Would riding a 45 pound e-bike on mountain bike trails be a good option for her?
    Great option actually.
    Why wouldn't it be?
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  64. #64
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    Stating it simply as "I am for/against/with exceptions trail access" is far too simplistic.

    How is "trail" being defined, for example? Are we talking trails that are already approved for motorized use? Trails that don't currently allow motorized use?

    Personally, I have no issue with e-bikes on pathways and trails where motorized use is already allowed.

    I do not support e-bikes on trails where motorized use is not currently allowed, with the exception of those who have [u]legitimate[/i] disabilities (being out of shape is not a legit reason, imo).
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My sister has Cystic Fibrosis and limited lung capacity that comes along with it.
    Pedal assist would work well for her if she ever decides it's something she wants to try.
    SHM, wish we weren't on opposite coasts; I'd love to see the smile on her face when she rode my wife's bike. Plus, you and I could have a beer (or six) while she tested it.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    How can you comment on a pas e bike if youíre never ridden one? Itís always concerning when you hear critics speak of them, yet they have no experience on them. To answer your question, yes they are slightly heavier. But letís not act like theyíre 200lb bikes. Weíre talking 15 lbs. They do not require more strength to handle. They are very handicapped, elderly friendly.

    You seriously canít think of a single injury, disability or age related event that would require a pedal asssist bike? What?!?!?! Iím not even going to respond to such rubbish. No disrespect, but thatís just plain ole ignorant.

    And btw..... thereís no such thing as a ďreal mountain bikerĒ. Only mountain bikers exist.
    Why do you assume I have never ridden an e-bike?

    You don't think it's more challenging for an elderly or disabled person to handle 50% heavier bike on roots, rocks, and turns?

    Since I'm so ignorant, why don't you enlighten me? What handicap requires a pedal-assist? I'm not talking about making things easier. It seems to me that people that might "require" pedal-assist either shouldn't be on a mountain bike at all or really just need a throttle. No direspect intended.

    Yes, there are fake mountain bikers, just like any other label. You're right, though, e-bikers are not any type of mountain biker and shouldn't even be considered fake.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    but you didn't provide anything to convince me otherwise.
    Because nothing will, so I won't bother. But I can unsubscribe...

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Why do you assume I have never ridden an e-bike?

    You don't think it's more challenging for an elderly or disabled person to handle 50% heavier bike on roots, rocks, and turns?

    Since I'm so ignorant, why don't you enlighten me? What handicap requires a pedal-assist? I'm not talking about making things easier. It seems to me that people that might "require" pedal-assist either shouldn't be on a mountain bike at all or really just need a throttle. No direspect intended.

    Yes, there are fake mountain bikers, just like any other label. You're right, though, e-bikers are not any type of mountain biker and shouldn't even be considered fake.
    You said an ebike is harder to maneuver. Thatís not true at all. That comment led me to believe you have never ridden one. Iíve ridden a Levo in rocks n roots, the extra weight was an advantage, the bike felt really planted due to the extra weight along with the Wide 3.0 tires. And why would you assume an elderly or handicapped would feel the need to ride rocks n roots? That is probably the last place they would go ride any bike for that matter.

    i gotta tell ya, your view that people who might need a pedal assist... shouldnít be on a mountain bike at all is very disturbing. There are hundreds of people who have disabilities that donít need you to tell them that they shouldnít have access to a bike that allows them to ride. Hereís a few disabilities for ya....

    Multiple sclerosis
    Muscular Dystrophy
    Chronic Arthritis
    Cerebral Palsy
    Spina Bifida
    Fibromyalgia
    Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
    osteoarthritis
    Cystic Fibrosis
    Asthma
    Hip Dysplasia
    Bad knees

    And then there are guys like me who have been riding, racing, crashing and abusing our bodies to the point we just might need a little assist at some point because weíve just worn out the parts.

    There is no such thing as ďfake mountain bikers.Ē Do you realize how silly that sounds?
    I raced professionally and ride with a crew at Whistler that absolutely shred. Now I donít know you, but I have a gut feeling if we took along... you most likely wouldnít be hitting the lines we do. Now I could say that youíre not a real mountain biker, but thatís ridiculous. There is no definition of real mountain biker. We all ride for our own reasons and everyone should repect each other for that

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    SHM, wish we weren't on opposite coasts; I'd love to see the smile on her face when she rode my wife's bike. Plus, you and I could have a beer (or six) while she tested it.
    I like the way you think homey.
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  70. #70
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    Couple thoughts after reading a few posts above.

    1) True cyclists donít judge or care what someone legally rides (Road, Mtn, Ebike) IMO. Stating otherwise is a sign of insecurity and elitism. All 2 wheels.

    2) My Levo takes more upper body strength while riding in technical terrain requiring manuals, scrubs etc.

    3) This ďPollĒ needs to be more dialed. Throttle, no throttle, different classes?

    4) Iím going to join FOSíL and SHM for a few cold ones!

    Cycling with buddies for me is about the ďentireĒ experience.
    -Morning coffee and bacon eggs
    -Big restroom visit
    -Bench racing to trailhead or riding destination
    -Begining ride taking in some sights and just enjoying the moment.
    -Mid ride shred.
    -End ride cooked, hungry and thirsty.
    -Pub and grub
    -Post ride rehash on ride home (slight buzz and full belly)
    -Un-load bike, rigamortis setting in.
    -Bed

    If Iím lucky Iíll do this as many times as my family and life allows me. I ride for fun, not cash. Emtb is just as fun (in a few different ways) to me, than my mtb, road bike whatever. Letís all just drop the lame arguments and talk Ebikes and their issues.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    You said an ebike is harder to maneuver. Thatís not true at all. That comment led me to believe you have never ridden one. Iíve ridden a Levo in rocks n roots, the extra weight was an advantage, the bike felt really planted due to the extra weight along with the Wide 3.0 tires. And why would you assume an elderly or handicapped would feel the need to ride rocks n roots? That is probably the last place they would go ride any bike for that matter.

    i gotta tell ya, your view that people who might need a pedal assist... shouldnít be on a mountain bike at all is very disturbing. There are hundreds of people who have disabilities that donít need you to tell them that they shouldnít have access to a bike that allows them to ride. Hereís a few disabilities for ya....

    Multiple sclerosis
    Muscular Dystrophy
    Chronic Arthritis
    Cerebral Palsy
    Spina Bifida
    Fibromyalgia
    Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
    osteoarthritis
    Cystic Fibrosis
    Asthma
    Hip Dysplasia
    Bad knees

    And then there are guys like me who have been riding, racing, crashing and abusing our bodies to the point we just might need a little assist at some point because weíve just worn out the parts.

    There is no such thing as ďfake mountain bikers.Ē Do you realize how silly that sounds?
    I raced professionally and ride with a crew at Whistler that absolutely shred. Now I donít know you, but I have a gut feeling if we took along... you most likely wouldnít be hitting the lines we do. Now I could say that youíre not a real mountain biker, but thatís ridiculous. There is no definition of real mountain biker. We all ride for our own reasons and everyone should repect each other for that
    I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.
    I feel Ike Iím administering medicine to the dead. Lol.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.
    We're off topic here a bit and into the whole ADA thing, which is practically irrelevant numbers-wise, so lets not go pretending there's going to be a slew of people with legitimate physical disabilities who are wildly unaware of their own limitations and completely lacking in common sense who are going to just go riding off into the wilderness by the thousands and die.

    My sister rides a regular bike now, probably a little over 30lbs, nothing fancy. She sticks to a few familiar and well-traveled parks/trail systems. She's not some gung-ho mountain biker, but she does get out a couple times a week for a handful of miles, and she does a lot better than I'd expect her too considering she took it up around 40 and has something like 40% lung capacity on a good day. Be great to see her be able enjoy the feeling of just riding the trails without having to stop, turn purple and cough like Chong every 1/2 mile. She does pretty well with mild tech (mild for New England) and is not at all interested in just 'riding off into the wilderness' on a bunch of gnarly trails. Just because someone has a disability, doesn't mean they're an idiot.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    We're off topic here a bit and into the whole ADA thing, which is practically irrelevant numbers-wise, so lets not go pretending there's going to be a slew of people with legitimate physical disabilities who are wildly unaware of their own limitations and completely lacking in common sense who are going to just go riding off into the wilderness by the thousands and die.

    My sister rides a regular bike now, probably a little over 30lbs, nothing fancy. She sticks to a few familiar and well-traveled parks/trail systems. She's not some gung-ho mountain biker, but she does get out a couple times a week for a handful of miles, and she does a lot better than I'd expect her too considering she took it up around 40 and has something like 40% lung capacity on a good day. Be great to see her be able enjoy the feeling of just riding the trails without having to stop, turn purple and cough like Chong every 1/2 mile. She does pretty well with mild tech (mild for New England) and is not at all interested in just 'riding off into the wilderness' on a bunch of gnarly trails. Just because someone has a disability, doesn't mean they're an idiot.
    It does sound like she is an excellent candidate for an e-bike on certain trails. My argument is against e-bikes on all mountain bike trails. I admittedly got a bit side-tracked, since I generally agree that certain handicaps should be allowed an e-bike on many trails. I still think that there are trails where e-bikes should never be allowed, and I think some people do need to be protected from themselves. While I would never associate being handicapped with being an idiot, there are plenty of idiots out there.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    I feel Ike Iím administering medicine to the dead. Lol.
    Same here, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    It does sound like she is an excellent candidate for an e-bike on certain trails. My argument is against e-bikes on all mountain bike trails. I admittedly got a bit side-tracked, since I generally agree that certain handicaps should be allowed an e-bike on many trails. I still think that there are trails where e-bikes should never be allowed, and I think some people do need to be protected from themselves. While I would never associate being handicapped with being an idiot, there are plenty of idiots out there.
    I agree with all of he above, besides people being protected from themselves.
    Darwin handles that just fine.
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  77. #77
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    In my circle, I find the greatest proponents of Ebikes happen to be people who sell Ebikes. Weird.
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    What's the difference between a regular guy riding a pedal assist bike and a pro riding a normal bike? The e-bike discussion usually revolves around their power output and their affect on trails yet your average guy riding them is more or less equivalent to a pro riding a normal bike. Are we going to limited what trails professional riders can ride too? Because the ground doesn't know the difference between them.

    Or we going to keep up this ridiculous notion that they're the same as gasoline powered motorcycles? Try taking an e-bike to a motocross park and see how well that comparison plays out.

    Here's an article on cross country riders' power output

    https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/_...d-in-xco-r6177

    "From the gun you can see that the athlete kicked out ~1300 watts and had to maintain 1000 watts for 18 seconds. This was followed by several spikes well over his threshold (demonstrated by the yellow dotted line). By the top of the first peak in the course the athlete had averaged 500 watts for 2:30 minutes. The second climb on the course is also very undulating, which results in several efforts far exceeding his threshold power. 10 Minutes into the race his average power was 354 Watts (this include all the downhills too) and his normalised power was 408 watts. The complete opening lap of the course resulted in a normalised power of 385 watts, which far exceeding his set threshold of 360 watts. In this particular race, this athlete completed the full 90 minutes at a normalised power of 350 watts"

    And a review Spec Levo

    https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...-mountain-bike

    "The average enthusiast cyclist puts out an average of 200 watts. The motor in Turbo mode adds another 250, for a combined 450 watts of total threshold power output. When you combine rider and bike weight (150 pounds and 45 pounds, respectively, for a 195-pound total), that gives you a power-to-weight ratio of 5.08 watts per kilogram. Maximum system power output or peak power by rider and motor combined is estimated at 1,530 watts for one second. Now letís put that into perspective. A professional mountain-bike racer (150 pounds) on a normal bike (28 pounds) puts out an average of 400 watts. Factoring in bike weight, the power-to-weight ratio is 4.95 watts per kilogram with a maximum of 1,400 wattsóthatís really, really close to what Average Joe or Jane can do on a Levo."

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonMX5 View Post
    What's the difference between a regular guy riding a pedal assist bike and a pro riding a normal bike? The e-bike discussion usually revolves around their power output and their affect on trails yet your average guy riding them is more or less equivalent to a pro riding a normal bike. Are we going to limited what trails professional riders can ride too? Because the ground doesn't know the difference between them.

    Or we going to keep up this ridiculous notion that they're the same as gasoline powered motorcycles? Try taking an e-bike to a motocross park and see how well that comparison plays out.

    Here's an article on cross country riders' power output

    https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/_...d-in-xco-r6177

    "From the gun you can see that the athlete kicked out ~1300 watts and had to maintain 1000 watts for 18 seconds. This was followed by several spikes well over his threshold (demonstrated by the yellow dotted line). By the top of the first peak in the course the athlete had averaged 500 watts for 2:30 minutes. The second climb on the course is also very undulating, which results in several efforts far exceeding his threshold power. 10 Minutes into the race his average power was 354 Watts (this include all the downhills too) and his normalised power was 408 watts. The complete opening lap of the course resulted in a normalised power of 385 watts, which far exceeding his set threshold of 360 watts. In this particular race, this athlete completed the full 90 minutes at a normalised power of 350 watts"

    And a review Spec Levo

    https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...-mountain-bike

    "The average enthusiast cyclist puts out an average of 200 watts. The motor in Turbo mode adds another 250, for a combined 450 watts of total threshold power output. When you combine rider and bike weight (150 pounds and 45 pounds, respectively, for a 195-pound total), that gives you a power-to-weight ratio of 5.08 watts per kilogram. Maximum system power output or peak power by rider and motor combined is estimated at 1,530 watts for one second. Now letís put that into perspective. A professional mountain-bike racer (150 pounds) on a normal bike (28 pounds) puts out an average of 400 watts. Factoring in bike weight, the power-to-weight ratio is 4.95 watts per kilogram with a maximum of 1,400 wattsóthatís really, really close to what Average Joe or Jane can do on a Levo."
    FYI, the Brose motor is turbo mode adds 300% of what the rider is putting into the system, up to a max 530w, typical of the 250w motors, a 750w motor, which is legal in the US, can add 1500w. That article isn't accurate.

    I can tell you that land managers aren't all that thrilled to have the average Joe & Jane putting out doped TDF rider numbers on the crowded trails around here.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonMX5 View Post
    What's the difference between a regular guy riding a pedal assist bike and a pro riding a normal bike?
    The ratio of regular guys to pro's is approximately 10,000 to 1. That's one difference.
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    Another difference is that pro riders know how to handle their speed.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    FYI, the Brose motor is turbo mode adds 300% of what the rider is putting into the system, up to a max 530w, typical of the 250w motors, a 750w motor, which is legal in the US, can add 1500w. That article isn't accurate.

    I can tell you that land managers aren't all that thrilled to have the average Joe & Jane putting out doped TDF rider numbers on the crowded trails around here.
    If a teenager can legally drive a 400hp muscle car amongst all of us, I believe a land manager shouldnt have an issue with joe & Jane riding a 250w pedal assist bike.

  83. #83
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    E-mtbs should not be allowed on non motorized trails. A motor is a motor any way you put it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    If a teenager can legally drive a 400hp muscle car amongst all of us, I believe a land manager shouldnt have an issue with joe & Jane riding a 250w pedal assist bike.
    If you are not the land manager, what you believe don't mean squat.
    Bicycles don't have motors.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    If you are not the land manager, what you believe don't mean squat.
    A land manager's power is not absolute nor permanent. They can be replaced with enough political pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    FYI, the Brose motor is turbo mode adds 300% of what the rider is putting into the system, up to a max 530w, typical of the 250w motors, a 750w motor, which is legal in the US, can add 1500w. That article isn't accurate.

    I can tell you that land managers aren't all that thrilled to have the average Joe & Jane putting out doped TDF rider numbers on the crowded trails around here.
    Ya, there is a lot of deception with the power rating system for ebikes. They are more powerful than rated, and it is not hard to add more power.

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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    A land manager's power is not absolute nor permanent. They can be replaced with enough political pressure.
    Proof?

    A land manager is usually an agency, not an idividual, policy is evaluated and set by many people, not just one.

    In our state park system, each park superintendent is king of their own little kingdom and can operate within overall park system parameters as they see fit. Our most recent local one hates bikes and banned them from a new trail being constructed for no valid reason. We went way above his head with members of the Colorado General Assembly pressuring his superiors to over rule him without success, so IME, I doubt getting a land manager fired because you don't like their policy choices is common.


    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    If a teenager can legally drive a 400hp muscle car amongst all of us, I believe a land manager shouldnt have an issue with joe & Jane riding a 250w pedal assist bike.
    Good for you.

    The reality is that if we had a mirror situation with the EU, the same 250w/15.5 mph regs, the same heavier handed stance on regulation with painful fines, there would be much more of a willingness among my local land managers to allow emtbs on their trails. But, there are not, so they evaluate their policy based on 750w/20mph, zero resources for enforcement on the trails, minimal to zero punitive regulations in place to enforce what is sold as an ebike and their daily proved experience that a certain percentage of the population will embrace their entitlement to do whatever they'd like on public lands.

    They feel like their only shot at regulating emtb usage is signage and bans. I don't blame them, I blame the industry for being greedy.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    If you are not the land manager, what you believe don't mean squat.
    And since your not a land manager... your anti e bike stance doesnít mean squat either.

    Not sure what point youíre trying to make with that comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.


    You have no idea what you are talking about do you?

    I just tested an eMTBike yesterday, Levo comp FSR Carbon, i've been riding on and off for 15 years and I am in my mid 30's now with a company to run and limited time..

    These eMountain Bikes are not a motor bike, you have to put effort in, you have to pedal properly, you have to have good cadence and you have to have some single trail skills.

    I'd go as far as to say they are NOT ideal for people who are starting out because you won't learn the fundamentals.

    I've got a company to run, limited time and a lack of time to exercise, I've put on a few kg's over the last 6 years, I have bad knees and a bad back from other sports and going on massive rides with the Bros isn't the optimum way to treat my wife on the weekends when she wants to spend time with me, this bit of kit cut my 4hr ride down to 1hr 36, I kept a steady HR up and if I didn't pedal properly it was actually harder to ride up hill.

    As for trail damage these bikes will do no more trail damage than an ordinary MTB, that is what they are designed for, and frankly riding a MTB in the wet will probably do more damage than these bikes.

    If used properly as a fitness tool I'd say it would help your MTBiking on a non pedal assist bike, that is where i see the benefit.

    I'm not sure what all the hate is coming from really other than blinkered ignorance.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    The ratio of regular guys to pro's is approximately 10,000 to 1. That's one difference.
    You must spread some reputation around before you give JB any more green chicklets.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by scratch&dent View Post
    You have no idea what you are talking about do you?

    I just tested an eMTBike yesterday, Levo comp FSR Carbon, i've been riding on and off for 15 years and I am in my mid 30's now with a company to run and limited time..

    These eMountain Bikes are not a motor bike, you have to put effort in, you have to pedal properly, you have to have good cadence and you have to have some single trail skills.

    I'd go as far as to say they are NOT ideal for people who are starting out because you won't learn the fundamentals.

    I've got a company to run, limited time and a lack of time to exercise, I've put on a few kg's over the last 6 years, I have bad knees and a bad back from other sports and going on massive rides with the Bros isn't the optimum way to treat my wife on the weekends when she wants to spend time with me, this bit of kit cut my 4hr ride down to 1hr 36, I kept a steady HR up and if I didn't pedal properly it was actually harder to ride up hill.

    As for trail damage these bikes will do no more trail damage than an ordinary MTB, that is what they are designed for, and frankly riding a MTB in the wet will probably do more damage than these bikes.

    If used properly as a fitness tool I'd say it would help your MTBiking on a non pedal assist bike, that is where i see the benefit.

    I'm not sure what all the hate is coming from really other than blinkered ignorance.
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    I've been reading this discussion with interest, coming originally from a motorcycle background, so at the risk of getting flamed, here are my 2 cents:

    The comparison between dirt bike and eMTB is ridiculous in my opinion. Just look at the basic figures involved to see if you can equate the two with a straight face. I'll use my current dirt bike (Beta 520 RS) as an example for a standard enduro (basically lightweight dirt focused dual-sport) bike.
    Dirt Bike- Weight 275 pounds fueled up. Power- 48 hp to the rear wheel.
    eMTB- Weight 50 lbs. Power- 250 watts (1/3 hp). 450 watts with additional power from rider (3/5 hp).
    MTB- Weight 28 pounds. Power 200 watts (less than 1/3 hp)

    These are all ballpark figures, but you get the gist. The difference between an eMTB and MTB is negligible. So what it seems to reall come down to in every discussion is that assisted mountain biking is "not pure" and you have to "earn" the pleasure of riding trails by suffering on the climbs or whatever. Which from the outside looking in strikes me as extremely elitist. Not everyone is going to be into the same stuff as you are, and I don't quite understand how their enjoyment diminishes yours. As long as there are clear rules in place to prevent abuses, eMTB can open up the sport to so many new people, attracting new advocates, new trail builders, new business to bike shops, etc. etc.

    Now having said that, there's also opportunity for abuse here. While I think the new emerging ebikes like Luna Sur Ron (6000 w, 110 lbs) are pretty badass, it's pretty clear they're a separate category of their own. Neither fish nor fowl. Where they fit in will have to be decided down the road (my guess is you'll start seeing a lot more MX tracks/mini trail systems closer to population centers), but it doesn't make sense to have them out on multi-use trails, considering they're putting out almost 25 times the power of the fittest rider.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by roma258 View Post
    I've been reading this discussion with interest, coming originally from a motorcycle background, so at the risk of getting flamed, here are my 2 cents:

    The comparison between dirt bike and eMTB is ridiculous in my opinion. Just look at the basic figures involved to see if you can equate the two with a straight face. I'll use my current dirt bike (Beta 520 RS) as an example for a standard enduro (basically lightweight dirt focused dual-sport) bike.
    Dirt Bike- Weight 275 pounds fueled up. Power- 48 hp to the rear wheel.
    eMTB- Weight 50 lbs. Power- 250 watts (1/3 hp). 450 watts with additional power from rider (3/5 hp).
    MTB- Weight 28 pounds. Power 200 watts (less than 1/3 hp)

    These are all ballpark figures, but you get the gist. The difference between an eMTB and MTB is negligible. So what it seems to reall come down to in every discussion is that assisted mountain biking is "not pure" and you have to "earn" the pleasure of riding trails by suffering on the climbs or whatever. Which from the outside looking in strikes me as extremely elitist. Not everyone is going to be into the same stuff as you are, and I don't quite understand how their enjoyment diminishes yours. As long as there are clear rules in place to prevent abuses, eMTB can open up the sport to so many new people, attracting new advocates, new trail builders, new business to bike shops, etc. etc.

    Now having said that, there's also opportunity for abuse here. While I think the new emerging ebikes like Luna Sur Ron (6000 w, 110 lbs) are pretty badass, it's pretty clear they're a separate category of their own. Neither fish nor fowl. Where they fit in will have to be decided down the road (my guess is you'll start seeing a lot more MX tracks/mini trail systems closer to population centers), but it doesn't make sense to have them out on multi-use trails, considering they're putting out almost 25 times the power of the fittest rider.
    You didn't actually read this discussion, did you?
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by roma258 View Post
    I've been reading this discussion with interest, coming originally from a motorcycle background, so at the risk of getting flamed, here are my 2 cents:

    The comparison between dirt bike and eMTB is ridiculous in my opinion. Just look at the basic figures involved to see if you can equate the two with a straight face. I'll use my current dirt bike (Beta 520 RS) as an example for a standard enduro (basically lightweight dirt focused dual-sport) bike.
    Dirt Bike- Weight 275 pounds fueled up. Power- 48 hp to the rear wheel.
    eMTB- Weight 50 lbs. Power- 250 watts (1/3 hp). 450 watts with additional power from rider (3/5 hp).
    MTB- Weight 28 pounds. Power 200 watts (less than 1/3 hp)

    These are all ballpark figures, but you get the gist. The difference between an eMTB and MTB is negligible. So what it seems to reall come down to in every discussion is that assisted mountain biking is "not pure" and you have to "earn" the pleasure of riding trails by suffering on the climbs or whatever. Which from the outside looking in strikes me as extremely elitist. Not everyone is going to be into the same stuff as you are, and I don't quite understand how their enjoyment diminishes yours. As long as there are clear rules in place to prevent abuses, eMTB can open up the sport to so many new people, attracting new advocates, new trail builders, new business to bike shops, etc. etc.

    Now having said that, there's also opportunity for abuse here. While I think the new emerging ebikes like Luna Sur Ron (6000 w, 110 lbs) are pretty badass, it's pretty clear they're a separate category of their own. Neither fish nor fowl. Where they fit in will have to be decided down the road (my guess is you'll start seeing a lot more MX tracks/mini trail systems closer to population centers), but it doesn't make sense to have them out on multi-use trails, considering they're putting out almost 25 times the power of the fittest rider.
    Well if you promise to go no faster than 18 mph on your Beta and not get out of first gear, maybe we can let you ride your motorized 2 wheeler on the trails too. I don't know anything about your Luna Sur Ron but I'd bet everything I own that once motorized bicycles are given the access they want, we'll see all sorts of crazy "bicycles" on the trails. I already know that people are too dumb or unwilling to follow the law since EVERY motorized bicycle rider I've seen on the trails has been on trails where they aren't legally allowed.
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    My Grandpa wanted a bike because he thought it would be fun to get around on. Rather than a ebike I bought him a 4wheel scooter. And he is one of those guys you swear at while your driving your car.
    Face it our bicycles and ebikes are unreliable methods of transportation. Just look in your pack and see what you have to repair your bike with while out on the trail. Tube, Chain link, pump, Leatherman, etc. And not to mention that any biker who has ridden for a while has had to walk out at one time or another.
    Do you think a disabled person should be out on singletrack? I really sympathise but we really don't need people away from civilisation and relying on assist to get home.
    I am not talking about bike paths, Iam talking about mountain bike trails.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlee View Post
    My Grandpa wanted a bike because he thought it would be fun to get around on. Rather than a ebike I bought him a 4wheel scooter. And he is one of those guys you swear at while your driving your car.
    Face it our bicycles and ebikes are unreliable methods of transportation. Just look in your pack and see what you have to repair your bike with while out on the trail. Tube, Chain link, pump, Leatherman, etc. And not to mention that any biker who has ridden for a while has had to walk out at one time or another.
    Do you think a disabled person should be out on singletrack? I really sympathise but we really don't need people away from civilisation and relying on assist to get home.
    I am not talking about bike paths, Iam talking about mountain bike trails.
    I'm not sure how many rescues that I've witnessed or been involved in over the years, but all the individuals started out not-"disabled". IMO, physically challenged individuals have a right to enjoy the outdoors too, and with electric assistance if necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I'm not sure how many rescues that I've witnessed or been involved in over the years, but all the individuals started out not-"disabled". IMO, physically challenged individuals have a right to enjoy the outdoors too, and with electric assistance if necessary.
    Most of them were probably not a mile or two from the trail head. If some of the people that have been mentioned in these posts just ran out of juice or got a flat, a full scale rescue would have to ensue. The guy that wants his 240lb brother out there with him. that can barely walk, but can ride a motor assist bike, nobody is helping him without a crew, even if his pedal falls off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Most of them were probably not a mile or two from the trail head. If some of the people that have been mentioned in these posts just ran out of juice or got a flat, a full scale rescue would have to ensue. The guy that wants his 240lb brother out there with him. that can barely walk, but can ride a motor assist bike, nobody is helping him without a crew, even if his pedal falls off.
    AIR, most were five+ miles from any trailhead; at lest five required a helicopter to extract them, and another group other means since a helicopter couldn't get to them. I don't think that physically challenged and mentally challenged equate, don't have a problem using resources to help a physically challenged individual and don't think it's inevitable that mechanical issues can't be overcome on the trail.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlee View Post
    Face it our bicycles and ebikes are unreliable methods of transportation.

    I can't speak for ebikes but bicycles are the most reliable method of transportation I've ever owned except for my feet. I carry a few repair items just in case but pretty much never have to use any of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I don't think that physically challenged and mentally challenged equate
    Agree.

    Some of the people posting here really need to get out and meet more actual real live humans.
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