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  1. #1
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    Sapim spoke tension meter

    Does any one have this tool and would said owner be kind enough to send me a copy of the 2.6mm/12G Leader spoke tension chart? I'm not sure a Park chart will work as I'm using a DT gauge. The DT uses a dail gauge (like the Sapim) and the Park does not. For what its worth I'm building some wheels (lots and lots) for a local pedicab/rickshaw company.

    thanks in advance
    Tim

  2. #2
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    Why not just use a Park tools chart, or the Park tool if you have one? The tensions will be close enough, that its not going to matter as long as the relative tension are about the same.
    Last edited by nov0798; 10-21-2012 at 01:28 PM.

  3. #3
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    The Park tool has a differant gage read out then the DT and Sapim. The DT & Sapim use a dial indicator to measure difflection . The Park uses a pointer and markings on the tool. Not really sure you can convert the two.

    Tim

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  5. #5
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    I like spoke tension meters and use them to obtain optimum strength from lightweight wheels, but heavy steel rims and tree trunk spokes? I honestly don't think it's worth the bother. Just get them tight and true and you're good to go IMO.

  6. #6
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    My point was if they both use kgf as the value, then as long as all the values are within the range you need it wont matter, especially building the wheels you described as JB Weld said.

    Looking at the manual, it appears to measure in nm, so 10nm = 1kgf. so if you want 20kgf or whatever the rims call for, then 200nm will be the same.

  7. #7
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    If you email Sapim they can send you a PDF of the values for different models of tensiometers. They are a bit different from DT spokes. But I agree with the others. Just use your tensiometer to make sure their all similar and don't worry about exact tension.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    If you email Sapim they can send you a PDF of the values for different models of tensiometers. They are a bit different from DT spokes. But I agree with the others. Just use your tensiometer to make sure their all similar and don't worry about exact tension.
    Lousy method for Mavic which like to pull the eyelets if you are to tight. What feels good and is good is often +- 20KGF off.

  9. #9
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    Ok DT does not make 2.6mm spokes and they do not have a chart for 2.6

    I tried contacting Sapim. E-mailed 3 times. No response.

    The cabs use aluminum rims. The rims currantly in use are from Star. A Chinese knock off of the Rhyno Lite. We will be going to another rim (probably a Pshyco)\ A Sun/Ringle Rhyno Lite (real one) has eyelets and they do not fit a 2.6mm spoke nipple.

    If you know of a steel rim 26" x 48 spokes readally avalable let me know. Besides who said anything about using steel rims........If I could I would. Worksman has a steel rim BUT its drilled for this huge nipple and the 2.6 ones fall through the hole and no we can't use their wheels as the rears have a 7/8" hub ID and we use 1" (Main Street) and 25mm (China Bike) ID axles.

    Cabs can carry very heavy loads. Up to 800lbs. 2 fat tourist and a rider, the cabs weigh 100 lbs. Pot holes suck. I've had wheel failures with a flat spot on one side and 180 degrees opposite a spoke or two pulled clean through the rim. I've had hubs spilt. I want to build a bunch of wheels at differant tensions and see what lasts the longest. Anything I can do to make these last longer will help.

    So I bought a Park tension meter and will build a wheel and convert the chart.

    Tim

  10. #10
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    I would recommend a rim with eyelets like the Rhyno Lite you mentioned... tent to hold tension more evenly in my experience....

    Either way post up again with any news!

  11. #11
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    I was having an issue with some rims with the holes cracking around the nipples. I started using the Sapim HM washers Washers | Sapim under each nipple, and havent had an issue since.

  12. #12
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    SpecialWarr: Nobody makes an eyeleted rim that fits 2.6mm spokes the biggest I've found so far is a Rhyno Litye it will fit a 2.3mm nipple.

    Nov0798: I'll have to give those a try.

    On a side note any one know of a steel rim or a rim that is stronger then 120 Kgf (Psycho) let me know. ( the Rhyno Lite is rated at 100 Kgf which I can't use any how because of nipple issues)
    Tim

  13. #13
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    Not at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by nov0798 View Post
    My point was if they both use kgf as the value, then as long as all the values are within the range you need it wont matter, especially building the wheels you described as JB Weld said.

    Looking at the manual, it appears to measure in nm, so 10nm = 1kgf. so if you want 20kgf or whatever the rims call for, then 200nm will be the same.
    I realize this post is over two years old, but this reply needs to be addressed. And I'd hate to have someone come across this post and falsely conclude they can use the spoke deflection values from ANY spoke tension meter manufacturer's chart(s), such as the comprehensive DT chart already linked (http://www.dtswiss.com/Resources/Sup...User-Manual-en). I took one look at the various plot lines and determined right away that NONE of these charts are of any use with my Ice Toolz tension meter.

    There are myriad different spoke tension meter designs out there. Two perfect examples are the Park and Sapim tools - they measure spoke deflection in COMPLETELY different ways. Sure, 1 kgf of spoke tension is the same, no matter what tool measures it, but the tool measures it, and more importantly provides deflection values, VERY differently.

    The amount of deflection the tool measures depends on two main things: spring tension of the tool and distance between measuring points (where the tool deflects the spoke). Then there is the gauge's readout: this, too, varies.

    The BEST way to determine a tension meter's values is to simply weight the spoke to be used with varying, but known weights, and measure the deflection. Then plot the points on a chart and do some limited extrapolation. This is what I did when I had a new spoke: I put 220 lbs. (100 kg) on a a spoke and measured the deflection. This is also a convenient way to calibrate your meter to be sure it's still measuring accurately and as expected.

    I hope this helps. And I'm in the process of locating a Sapim tension meter manual for future wheel builds. If I find a .pdf copy of it, I'll make it available to anyone here who requests it. And if I get a link to it, I'll post here. Conversely, if anyone has located the Sapim manual since this thread was active and can get me a copy, I'd sure appreciate it.

  14. #14
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    Convert N to Kgf and visa versa using this tool. N to kgf Converter, Chart -- EndMemo

    Let's say the Park charts says 110 Kgf, that is 1080 N. Find the closest spoke to what you using using the DT Swiss instructions and have at it with the spokey

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bing! View Post
    Convert N to Kgf and visa versa using this tool. N to kgf Converter, Chart -- EndMemo

    Let's say the Park charts says 110 Kgf, that is 1080 N. Find the closest spoke to what you using using the DT Swiss instructions and have at it with the spokey
    Thanks for participating in the discussion. However, I'm not sure what you're saying. First, I am not using a Park tension gauge. I'm using Ice Toolz, which I'm pretty sure is the exact same gauge as the Sapim.

    N to kgf is not what I'm looking for. I need to know what deflection values of the Ice Toolz/Sapim gauge correspond to what tension levels (be they N, kgf or lbs., doesn't matter). Deflection measurements vary widely from tension meter to meter. This is not a linear equation, so you can't draw a straight line between, say the deflection measured at 50 kgf and 150 kgf and extrapolate. Additionally, I'd like a chart for the various gauge AND shape Sapim spokes, including most importantly, their bladed spokes. A bladed spoke with a nominal cross section of, say, 1.5 mm, will have a deflection SIMILAR to a round 1.5mm spoke, but not the same. I'd like to see the variation in deflection values for butted versus various bladed spokes.

    Also, the gauge of the spoke alone affects tension meter values because a 2.0mm spoke has a different deflection value than a 1.5mm spoke AT THE SAME TENSION.

    Ideally, I'd like spoke deflection values at around 110 kgf +/- 20 kg and that's it. No need to know what deflection values are for 50 kgf because no one builds wheels with this spoke tension.

    Thanks again for contributing to the discussion!

  16. #16
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    My bad, I was replying to the og post. Will read your follow up and respond shortly.

  17. #17
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    I am surprised your gauge does not come with a chart that shows equivalent N or Kgf for deflection values read off various spokes specific to that meter. That should be a given for the tool. It's veritably useless without it, unless each buyer is tasked to do test themselves and build their own chart.

    Rim and wheels manufacturer's specify N or Kgf values, not deflection to some random tool. Do you have the manual? And is it not in there? The SAPIM or ICETOOLZ website does not provide it.

  18. #18
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    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by bing! View Post
    I am surprised your gauge does not come with a chart that shows equivalent N or Kgf for deflection values read off various spokes specific to that meter. That should be a given for the tool. It's veritably useless without it, unless each buyer is tasked to do test themselves and build their own chart.

    Rim and wheels manufacturer's specify N or Kgf values, not deflection to some random tool. Do you have the manual? And is it not in there? The SAPIM or ICETOOLZ website does not provide it.
    Well, no to most of your queries. The tool came with a simple conversion chart for 1.8mm (15g) spokes and larger. No values for anything smaller, round, bladed, oval or otherwise. And this is just standard stainless spokes, so obviously it doesn't address Al bladed like found in the Mavic wheels. And obviously carbon spokes are a no-go as well! (Their values will be VERY different, given their considerably different diameters and composition.)

    I've contacted them and they say "Sorry!" They have nothing they can send me, nor anything on their website. So I'm on my own. When I had a Mavic Ksyrium wheel to build, I visited my friendly LBS and they let me take my tension meter to one of their stock Mavic wheels, measured 'em all and got the average, so I knew what deflection values to shoot for.

    Since I happened upon the Sapim meter - which looks like it's the exact same tool as the Ice Toolz - it seemed like a convenient way to obtain a more comprehensive deflection chart - especially for the Sapim line of spokes.

    I realize I'm assuming the Sapim meter has the same spring rate and dial gauge readout. One way I can confirm the two meters are the same is to compare 1.8mm and 2.0mm values on my limited deflection values chart to be sure they correspond to the same gauges on the Sapim chart. If they correlate, I can probably safely assume the meters are the same.

    That's my line of reasoning.

    Then again, I could just say screw it and buy a Sapim meter!

    PS A tension meter isn't actually useless if you don't know the absolute tension values because it still tells you what your relative tensions are - which is a critical part of building quality wheels. So although I may not know the actual tension values in kgf, I do know that I'm building wheels with equal spoke tension throughout.
    Last edited by TandemBear; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:58 PM. Reason: One more thought.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemBear View Post
    PS A tension meter isn't actually useless if you don't know the absolute tension values because it still tells you what your relative tensions are - which is a critical part of building quality wheels. So although I may not know the actual tension values in kgf, I do know that I'm building wheels with equal spoke tension throughout.
    I guess. You tension up using your fingers, then balance with any one spokje that feels just right. But really, that is a crappy tool company.

  20. #20
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    Not to beat a dead horse, but I came across a good discussion of the issue. I'm like the author and have built hundreds of wheels without using a tension meter. I now use one to ensure minimum tension values and uniformity as a QA method. Here's a part of the discussion that encapsulates my quandary:

    "Could I use the DT tensiometer for checking Sapim spokes? The Sapim Race spoke is dimensionally the same as a DT Competition and the Sapim Laser same as a DT Revolution and the steel has to be very similar. I needed to assess the tension in the wheels I built with Sapim spokes. Better ask Sapim at their Belgium factory and their reply was:
    'No, you can't use the DT charts as these charts are based on DT spokes which have a totally different behaviour than the Sapim spokes especially for the Laser spokes. Best is that you send us the meter and that we calibrate it for you on Race and Laser spokes.'"

    From: Wheelbuilding spoke tension and tensiometers

    So even when presented with a spoke with the same dimensions, it is not wise to assume deflection values will be the same between brands. I can't imagine they would be THAT different between two 1.7mm stainless steel spokes, but hey, I'm not an engineer nor metallurgist!

    The search continues... and Happy Thanksgiving!

  21. #21
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    OK, well looks like I don't really need any charts whatsoever. I just need to fabricate my own tension meter calibration tool, like shown in this YouTube video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsz7l1GWoI

    He goes to some elaborate lengths to fabricate his tool, but it could be done SO much easier. I'm thinking just suspend the digital scale over my work bench from an eye bolt in a ceiling joist. I'd also just not go to the trouble of having to thread the other side of a sample spoke and instead just put a sample spoke through a dummy hub (with the hub being held to the bench by another spoke. That way, no wasted time clipping off the elbow and threading the remaining spoke end.

    Looks like I'll be ordering a 200kg digital scale in the near future!

    Advantage to this is that it allows one to quickly measure deflections of ANY spoke one happens to be building with. Just set the tension at 110kg and determine the meter's deflection and Voila! you've both calibrated your tool AND determined what deflection values are for the given spoke.

    Charts? Charts? We don't have charts! We don't need no stinking charts!

  22. #22
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    Think that one through a bit more. Following that video, you will be building the tool, to build your own chart.

    Park will calibrate their tool and send it back for free

  23. #23
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    OK, I built my tension calibration jig with some scrap hardwood I had lying around and an old rear hub. That with the $32 200 kg. weight scale from Ebay, and I'm set.

    Yes, Bing!, I could use this jig to simply make spoke tension charts. I did indeed measure deflection values for various spokes I have for 80, 90, 100, 110, and 120 kg of spoke tension. Got to put the new tool to use! And I may even update the chart I have with these values.

    That said, I don't really need to do this. First, my jig is much smaller and portable than the one shown in the Youtube video. It sits nicely in my bench vise and is VERY easy to use. Easy to store out of the way when not in use. So instead of creating various spoke charts, I'll instead just take a spoke I'm using in my next wheel build and measure the deflection for 110 kg. and I'm done. This will get me the value I need AND calibrate my tension meter at the same time.

    Plus, charts can't anticipate changes in steel (and other) alloys and small diameter variations I may encounter in future spokes. Measure and be done. Pretty simple, effective, and, most importantly, accurate.

    Anyone building a lot of wheels would be well-served by building a jig like this. It'll up your quality control for sure.

  24. #24
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    My only reservation is that wood has give. However, if the scale says 110 kg, I'm guessing its an absolutely value. Good job.

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