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Thread: XCL v. MotoLite

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    XCL v. MotoLite

    The Chumba XCL has more external gusseting, so it looks tougher, but from the little I've gathered, it seems to be roughly the same weight as the ML once you consider the extra weight of the low-volume DHX-Air that is spec'd on the XCL. So I'm thinking maybe Titus has just internally gusseted the Moto? Also, it looks to me like where the Motolite has overbuilt chainstays, the XCL has beef in its seatstays; albeit sans seatstay-bridge.

    Perhaps you bike experts can comment on what's more important to frame stiffness, seatstays or chainstays?

  2. #2
    the 36 year old grom
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    Quote Originally Posted by dulyebr
    The Chumba XCL has more external gusseting, so it looks tougher, but from the little I've gathered, it seems to be roughly the same weight as the ML once you consider the extra weight of the low-volume DHX-Air that is spec'd on the XCL. So I'm thinking maybe Titus has just internally gusseted the Moto? Also, it looks to me like where the Motolite has overbuilt chainstays, the XCL has beef in its seatstays; albeit sans seatstay-bridge.

    Perhaps you bike experts can comment on what's more important to frame stiffness, seatstays or chainstays?
    are you thinking of gettting an XCL?

  3. #3
    FM
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    One thing I noticed about the chumba's is the do not use "clevis" style drop-out pivots like titus and Turner use...(pivots that sandwich the bearing surface on both sides). The clevis pivots seem like a really good idea- increasing stiffness and decreasing side-loads on the pivot bearings and hardware...

    The chumbas do look like super nice bikes though!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    One thing I noticed about the chumba's is the do not use "clevis" style drop-out pivots like titus and Turner use...(pivots that sandwich the bearing surface on both sides). The clevis pivots seem like a really good idea- increasing stiffness and decreasing side-loads on the pivot bearings and hardware...

    The chumbas do look like super nice bikes though!

    This is true, and a god point IMO.

    I Love the way the XCL looks, and the"idea" of the bike, but I'd still go ML if I were choosing today. It's pretty darn close though. Funny how we had the shootout Cranx posted up. Than they up the travel to 5", and add a seat tube gusset along with shaving some wieght. Hmmm? Seems like the Lite-Moto didn't need to make any changes to be more like.... well.

    Nuff said IMO.

  5. #5
    the 36 year old grom
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    take a look at this one....
    2007 CHUMBA XCL Brings in the Rave Reviews!

    looking at this post... seams like a no brainer. the chumba is cheap $1400. its a four bar. it has a DHXA. which is a real good deal at that price. the DHXA is $$expensive$$. would like to ride one to see if I like the geo. but I doubt it.

    anyway... they'll sell a bunch.


    .................................................. .......
    this was a real subtle post... in that thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ginsu2k
    Except maybe a horst link held in double shear instead of single shear! And the upper rocker arm could be triangulated to provide superior lateral rigidity.
    the clevis gives you double shear and the MLs rocker is triangulated. even if the machine work on the rocker is so good that cranxOC thought it was plastic, thus cheap.

  6. #6
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    Same weight? My large XCL is about 7.5 pounds. Is that what a motolite weighs?

    Plus, I can throw a 6 inch fork on there without voiding the warranty. And no carbon on the XCL.

    Oh yeah, if you want, you can have it "made in America" for less than what the motolite costs.

    Not saying that either bike is better, but the fork and carbon issues are what drove me to buy the Chumba over the Titus. Also helped I saved a load of dough.

    cheers
    Extreme stationary biker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Same weight? My large XCL is about 7.5 pounds. Is that what a motolite weighs?

    Plus, I can throw a 6 inch fork on there without voiding the warranty. And no carbon on the XCL.

    Oh yeah, if you want, you can have it "made in America" for less than what the motolite costs.

    Not saying that either bike is better, but the fork and carbon issues are what drove me to buy the Chumba over the Titus. Also helped I saved a load of dough.

    cheers
    With a DHX-Air, a medium MotoLite would weigh about 6.8lbs.

    Man that is a hot looking ride. With the Pike and DHX-Air it looks similar to my MotoLite -- but it's stock...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Same weight? My large XCL is about 7.5 pounds. Is that what a motolite weighs?

    Plus, I can throw a 6 inch fork on there without voiding the warranty. And no carbon on the XCL.

    Oh yeah, if you want, you can have it "made in America" for less than what the motolite costs.

    Not saying that either bike is better, but the fork and carbon issues are what drove me to buy the Chumba over the Titus. Also helped I saved a load of dough.

    cheers

    Yeah that's a big bonus for many of us..... All of it.

  9. #9
    "El Whatever"
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    Both are smoking bikes.

    As if the seatstay is more important than the chainstays or vice versa, I don't really know. Maybe GizmoII should have a better insight, since he's designed a stiff bike or two

    I would think the stiffness of articulations is more important for pure stiffness. However, more meat at the connecting members will not only help with stiffness, but also helps with longevity.

    Looking closely, they take different approaches to make a stiff bike.

    Chumba uses gusseting, Titus hydroforms and butts the tubes.
    Chumba uses more burly rear end, Titus has stiffer connections and reinforces the rocker link laterally (there's a connecting rod between both plates) for stiffness.

    Both are good, valid approaches. I think it would come down to ride characteristics to choose between the two of them. The Chumba seems more directed to aggressive riders, while the ML is a bit more versatile, covering the XC to "light-AM" side of the spectrum.

    Geo mentions the ability to run a 160 fork and being manufactured in USA... To some folks it may mean little as they wouldn't run such a big fork or live in a foreign country where made in the US means little.

    Personally, and I agree with Geo here; I'd take less carbon, a heftier weight and save some bucks.

    I'd be all over an Original ML would Titus re-issue it as a frame only. There's of market now uncovered... The 1100-1400 5" trailbike... At least I can count two competitors off the top of my head, the XCL and the Transition Covert.
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  10. #10
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    Also, for another 250, you can add custom geometry (I'm not 100% positive on this, but I remember reading it somewhere).

    That's a custom built, american made frame for less than 2 grand. Hell of a deal.

    Here hope for the Titus lovers out there (count me as one) that this (XCL) lights a fire under the Titus engineers butts. BTW, I can't wait till the Ti Guapo comes out...
    Extreme stationary biker.

  11. #11
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    What Did I Miss?

    It was my understanding that the XCL is made in asia this year, and for an upcharge you can have it made in the USA.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    It was my understanding that the XCL is made in asia this year, and for an upcharge you can have it made in the USA.
    1399 for made in asia
    1699 for made in US (by an asian...just kidding)

    And 250 for custom geo on US made frames...like I said, I could be wrong on that one. You'd have to call Alan at Chumba and ask him about it. Nice fellow.

    edit: complete build for 2800. Pretty nice specs too:

    Component Specification
    Frame Shock Fox DHX 5.0 Air
    Fork RockShox Pike 454 U-Turn Coil, 20mm axle
    Headset FSA Orbit X, 1 1/8"
    Handlebar Truvativ TEAM OS 50mm rise 710mm width
    Stem Truvativ TEAM 3D OS 100mm
    Grips Lock-on with CHUMBA logo
    Front Brake Avid Juicy 5 185mm
    Rear Brake Avid Juicy 5 160mm
    Crankset FSA Afterburner MegaExo 175mm with BB
    Chain SRAM PC971
    Front Derailleur Shimano XT E-Type FD-M760A-E
    Rear Derailleur SRAM X.9 Mid-cage
    Shifter SRAM X.9 Trigger
    Cassette SRAM PG-970 11-34
    Front Tire Maxxis Minion 2.35"
    Rear Tire Maxxis Minion 2.35"
    Wheels CHUMBA 20mm front axle, 10mm rear axle
    Saddle CHUMBA VL-1205 black kevlar chromoly rails
    Seat Post Truvativ XR 31.6mm 350mm
    Seat Clamp CHUMBA design 38.1mm
    Extreme stationary biker.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    1399 for made in asia
    1699 for made in US (by an asian...just kidding)
    Serious question with no second intention...

    Are there any differences other than the place the bike is made?
    Welds, craftsmanship, etc??
    Or do you just notice each of them because of the "made in the USA" sticker?

    I'm asking because would I be interested on one, as a foreign customer, I'd rather save the 300 bucks and get the Asia version if the only difference is the place it's made.

    If indeed, the USA bike is better, 300 surcharge may be worth spending.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Serious question with no second intention...

    Are there any differences other than the place the bike is made?
    Welds, craftsmanship, etc??
    Or do you just notice each of them because of the "made in the USA" sticker?

    I'm asking because would I be interested on one, as a foreign customer, I'd rather save the 300 bucks and get the Asia version if the only difference is the place it's made.

    If indeed, the USA bike is better, 300 surcharge may be worth spending.
    Craftmanship is the same. Chumba owner, Ted Tanouye, spent a month overseas monitoring the build of the first crop of XCL's (I own one of these). The welds on my bike look great. Frame still sits though . I cannot decide on a fork.

    edit: The XCL's are made in a facility where other high end manufacturers are built as well...maybe one of them is Titus? I don't know (that is pure speculation).

    Here's a pic:
    chumba couch 1sm.JPG

    and another:
    chumba couch 3sm.JPG

    Sorry for the non-Titus propaganda, but Dulyebr brought it up.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  15. #15
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    I've been looking at the XCL too. It's certainly in a good price point and with a Horst link design. That seems to be an underserved niche that the MotoLite used to fill. But since Titus has decided to go premium for frame only, one that's left vacant for aftermarket frames. They will probably sell very well.

    I know how everyone here values my un-expert opinion but this being the interweb and all, I'll give it anyway. The frame definitely is a good start but a few suggested refinements from the peanut gallery. It seems like they have focused more on front triangle stiffness than the rear linkage stiffness. From a maintenance and longevity standpoint, I don't think this is the best approach.

    Possible Improvements:
    1. I would definitely go with the clevis style chainstay pivot like Titus and Turner have been doing for many years. This is just a solid design.
    2. Also on the main pivot, I would probably figure a way to get a through bolt in there instead of two independent bolts. A solid axle there would stiffen it up and greatly help with bearing life.
    3. Then I think the frame would be stiff enough to downsize the MONSTER seat tube to a standard 34.9 which should be stiff enough. This would make it more compatible with standard seat collar and away from the e-type front derailleur.


    The good stuff:

    1. Beefcake tubing
    2. Proven Horst link design
    3. Inexpensive
    4. Anodized finish
    5. The solid axle rear shock bushing is a nice touch (can't tell from the picture on the front). This is something every frame should come with.
    6. Sweet head tube badge.
    7. Custom geometry (and made in USA option) is always a plus.


    Anyway, the 5" trail bike seems to be the big ticket item these days so I hope they do well with it. I look forward to more reports from the field.
    Long Live Long Rides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Serious question with no second intention...

    Are there any differences other than the place the bike is made?
    Welds, craftsmanship, etc??
    Or do you just notice each of them because of the "made in the USA" sticker?

    I'm asking because would I be interested on one, as a foreign customer, I'd rather save the 300 bucks and get the Asia version if the only difference is the place it's made.

    If indeed, the USA bike is better, 300 surcharge may be worth spending.
    It is supposed to be the exact same bike. In several threads, the owner seemed to mention that fact.

    I wonder how much of a weight difference there is between a ML and a chumba. I thought the ML was close to 28 lbs, while the chumba seems to be closer to 31 lbs. Is this correct?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Craftmanship is the same. Chumba owner, Ted Tanouye, spent a month overseas monitoring the build of the first crop of XCL's (I own one of these). The welds on my bike look great. Frame still sits though . I cannot decide on a fork.
    Thanks, folks!!!

    I would sway to the savings side, then...

    As for fork... Z1 RC2, no contest.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    I've been looking at the XCL too. It's certainly in a good price point and with a Horst link design. That seems to be an underserved niche that the MotoLite used to fill. But since Titus has decided to go premium for frame only, one that's left vacant for aftermarket frames. They will probably sell very well.

    I know how everyone here values my un-expert opinion but this being the interweb and all, I'll give it anyway. The frame definitely is a good start but a few suggested refinements from the peanut gallery. It seems like they have focused more on front triangle stiffness than the rear linkage stiffness. From a maintenance and longevity standpoint, I don't think this is the best approach.

    Possible Improvements:
    1. I would definitely go with the clevis style chainstay pivot like Titus and Turner have been doing for many years. This is just a solid design.
    2. Also on the main pivot, I would probably figure a way to get a through bolt in there instead of two independent bolts. A solid axle there would stiffen it up and greatly help with bearing life.
    3. Then I think the frame would be stiff enough to downsize the MONSTER seat tube to a standard 34.9 which should be stiff enough. This would make it more compatible with standard seat collar and away from the e-type front derailleur.


    The good stuff:

    1. Beefcake tubing
    2. Proven Horst link design
    3. Inexpensive
    4. Anodized finish
    5. The solid axle rear shock bushing is a nice touch (can't tell from the picture on the front). This is something every frame should come with.
    6. Sweet head tube badge.
    7. Custom geometry (and made in USA option) is always a plus.


    Anyway, the 5" trail bike seems to be the big ticket item these days so I hope they do well with it. I look forward to more reports from the field.
    I totally agree with your post.

    There's nothing better than constructive criticism.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    As for fork... Z1 RC2, no contest.
    It's on the list...pretty tall A2C though. Not adjustable...other than ETA...which I'm not sold on.

    Marz AM 1 SL ATA is on as well. Adjustable, light, but I'm not sold on TST for forks...just can't pull the trigger.

    Lyrik coil U-turn. Adjustable but the heaviest of the bunch, but only slightly over the Z1.

    This frame will see some abuse...this isn't going to be a weight weenie build, but I'd like to keep it under 33 pounds. If I can't, I'll sell and lighten up the SuMo or maybe look at the Ti version of the Guap when that hits the streets.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  20. #20
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    I would go with the Moto for sure if the frame-only was at a reasonable price point as it used to be. Now that you have to cough up a lot more, it really is a toss-up BUT are the ride reports of the XCL pretty impressive, barring all the new-bike buzz? I really don't have too much info on the XCL so I can't comment but the Moto is obviously proven. The only real con is the non-availability of the regular frames on their own.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    I totally agree with your post.

    There's nothing better than constructive criticism.
    Oh and I forgot to mention the sizing. It seems the Chumba are biased toward taller riders where the ML sizing is definitely biased toward shorter riders. Looking at the top tube, the XCL has a 1" gap between the small and medium but only a 1/2" gap between the medium and large. The XCL should give someone 6' (such as myself) a good amount of choice between the 23.5" TT medium or the 24" TT large. The shortshyts and NBA tall types out there have to take it or leave it or spring for the custom option. It's also nice to have a reasonably priced custom option. I mean, you could have a XCL with custom geometry made in California for not much more than a stock Turner or Titus and much less than an Intense or Ellsnotworthit. Like I said, I think the XCL will sell very well.
    Long Live Long Rides

  22. #22
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    I certainly like the look of the XCL and would definitely love to try one out someday. But, I'm very happy with my ML2, so it'll be a long ways away.

    The thing I haven't been able to figure out about the XCL is what the standover is. I haven't seen an accurate number on the forums and their website new or old has never listed it.

    Geo, any knowledge in this department?
    IT'S NOT THE FALL THAT HURTS. IT'S WHEN YOU HIT THE GROUND.

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    Standover...

    Actual standover measurement of a Large XCL with Pike at 140mm (520mm A-C) is 32 inches.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by uinta
    Actual standover measurement of a Large XCL with Pike at 140mm (520mm A-C) is 32 inches.
    hmmm.... That's about my inseam... But then, I'm material for a Small (5'9" here). Yet, it may be a close call for some tall guys with short legs.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by uinta
    Actual standover measurement of a Large XCL with Pike at 140mm (520mm A-C) is 32 inches.
    Thanks. While that's closer to the boys than the ML sits, it's still doable. I think my inseam is about 33.5 with no shoes on, so with shoes should be fine.
    IT'S NOT THE FALL THAT HURTS. IT'S WHEN YOU HIT THE GROUND.

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