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  1. #1
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Woody's ML Resolution

    Geeze...just when the Snapped ML Thread was getting interesting.

    Woody....let us know how the resolution of your ML Issue goes. I'm sure Chris and Co will take care of you!!!
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  2. #2
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    he may gotten a sweet-heart deal with a non-disclosure clause. i think that's what CranxOC got with his Racer-X -- pure speculation.

  3. #3
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    Boy that thread got crazy, huh?

    A deal is in the works. I don't want to say anything until it's finalized.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    ...

    A deal is in the works. I don't want to say anything until it's finalized.
    Cool I like surprises.

  5. #5
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Good to hear....hope you can make those rides you got planned.

    If any of you guys race, check this out.

    http://www.mavsports.com/?id=8

    I'm thinking of doing a Sport Duo Team with a buddy of mine. 5400' of climbing in 25 miles. That'll kick ya into shape!!!!
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  6. #6
    Veni Vidi Vici
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    Good to hear that woodyak Hope you get a deal that will work for you

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    Boy that thread got crazy, huh?

    A deal is in the works. I don't want to say anything until it's finalized.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Good to hear....hope you can make those rides you got planned.

    If any of you guys race, check this out.

    http://www.mavsports.com/?id=8

    I'm thinking of doing a Sport Duo Team with a buddy of mine. 5400' of climbing in 25 miles. That'll kick ya into shape!!!!
    pedaling uphill is so early 00's ....

  8. #8
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    Ok. The long awaited deal is finalized. Titus and Hammerhead are taking care of me. Charles went above and beyond to make the deal happen and his efforts are greatly appreciated.

    Without getting into specifics on the competitive upgrade details I have a small blue El Guapo w/DHX Air coming my way. We all agreed that the Motolite just isn't going to cut it for me unless I tame my riding (which I'm not willing to do).

    However, I haven't made up my mind yet but I'm strongly considering selling the EG when it arrives. The sizing for the small EG concerns me. I like my bikes on the smaller side rather than the larger size. I figure if I sell it I have the opportunity to get into any frame that I want and there are so many options and deals these days that I simply can't ignore. I'm like a kid in a candy store

    What do you guys think?

  9. #9
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    Why would you post on here that you are thinking about selling the frame? If I had been the one working hard to take care of this problem I would think twice about it now. I had read the previous threAd and thought you would be taken care of on replacing the frame. Still, If you sold it why not try it first. Just my thought, please don't throw the book at me.
    Brian

  10. #10
    FM
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    Without getting into specifics on the competitive upgrade details I have a small blue El Guapo w/DHX Air coming my way. We all agreed that the Motolite just isn't going to cut it for me unless I tame my riding (which I'm not willing to do).

    However, I haven't made up my mind yet but I'm strongly considering selling the EG when it arrives. The sizing for the small EG concerns me. I like my bikes on the smaller side rather than the larger size. I figure if I sell it I have the opportunity to get into any frame that I want and there are so many options and deals these days that I simply can't ignore. I'm like a kid in a candy store

    What do you guys think?
    Thats awesome!

    Post up some details about what your motolite build was like (stem length, amount of exposed seatpost, # of headset spacers, etc) and we'll compare the motolite to the el Guapo and see how things shake out.

    I just went through this myself. When in doubt about sizing, I think a larger frame makes more sense for "in between" aggressive riders. The longer wheelbase will be less endo-prone on steeps and more stable on skinnies and at high speeds. A larger frame allows you to run a shorter stem and get the same distance between the bars and saddle. this in turn centers your weight between the wheels or slightly rearward, whereas a short TT/long stem moves yoru weight farther over the front wheel.

    Of course, too big is too big....either way the el guapo will have great resale value, even if you ride it for a while and find it doesn't fit..

  11. #11
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by blooper
    Why would you post on here that you are thinking about selling the frame? If I had been the one working hard to take care of this problem I would think twice about it now. I had read the previous threAd and thought you would be taken care of on replacing the frame. Still, If you sold it why not try it first. Just my thought, please don't throw the book at me.
    Brian
    Sounded sketch to me too, but oh well.

  12. #12
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    I was just throwing it out there. I haven't decide yet.

  13. #13
    the train keeps rollin
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    Hah,, when you get the El Guapo, your going to jonse, and build it up..

  14. #14
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    I was just throwing it out there. I haven't decide yet.

    Like FM said if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit. But he also makes some good points about the posability of it fitting so I think it might work out perfect.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    I was just throwing it out there. I haven't decide yet.
    That blue color is killer.

    Speculation is fun, but really no one knows how it's gonna feel until you ride it.

    What fork will go on the EG? That will affect ride feel as well.

    What are the other bikes on your list?
    Extreme stationary biker.

  16. #16
    "El Whatever"
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    Good to know they're taking care of you in a favorable way.

    Bummer if the EG doesn't fit, but I wouldn't let it go without trying it out first.

    If everything goes south, check out the Duncon Akita... heavy, overbuilt, but pretty much like what you're looking for and affordable. I've seen one in the flesh and it's a nice bike, well (over)built, geometry is right with the right shock, etc. It's basically for 4X/Slopestyle but it can go with different travel settings.

    Maybe a Bottlerocket too... I haven't seen one, but I figure the Akita will take punishment better. It has THAT much of material. You won't break it.

    Good luck! I hope you stay in the family once that beauty gets to your hands.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak

    What do you guys think?
    I think you knew damn well the failure wasn't a manufacturing defect. I think Charles did you more favors than you deserved.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Thats awesome!

    Post up some details about what your motolite build was like (stem length, amount of exposed seatpost, # of headset spacers, etc) and we'll compare the motolite to the el Guapo and see how things shake out.

    I just went through this myself. When in doubt about sizing, I think a larger frame makes more sense for "in between" aggressive riders. The longer wheelbase will be less endo-prone on steeps and more stable on skinnies and at high speeds. A larger frame allows you to run a shorter stem and get the same distance between the bars and saddle. this in turn centers your weight between the wheels or slightly rearward, whereas a short TT/long stem moves yoru weight farther over the front wheel.

    Of course, too big is too big....either way the el guapo will have great resale value, even if you ride it for a while and find it doesn't fit..
    I had it built up with a 120mm stem w/no spacers and an AM1 set at 140-145mm. I had a good bit of exposed seatpost, enough so the seat was slightly higher than the bars. I could go with a shorter stem but I am concerned about the longer wheelbase. I come from a bmx background as a kid so I like how the smaller bikes handle.

    Yeah, I figure it would be easy to sell. I am tempted to build it up but then I'd lose some $ by taking it off the lot. I'll have to look at it when it comes in.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    Hah,, when you get the El Guapo, your going to jonse, and build it up..
    That is highly likely as I am known to be quite impulsive...

  20. #20
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Maybe a Bottlerocket too... I haven't seen one, but I figure the Akita will take punishment better. It has THAT much of material. You won't break it.
    I haven't seen the Duncon Akita personally (looks beefy), but the BR is definitely overbuilt. I've got several buddies on them and they're burly......35 lbs. is realistic with a lighter build.

    Woodyak, I agree that if you're being hooked up with a deal on an El G upgrade (which is the right thing to do, btw) that stating you might just sell it immediately is bad form.....even if it's true. The last thing folks that go out of their way to help someone want to see is you sell their frame as soon as you get it. Of course, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit....but you may want to get some saddle time on it before you make that call. Also, not sure what size stem you use, but a shorter stem might help alleviate any issues in TT length. The demand is such that even a slightly ridden El G will still command top dollar.

    Cheers,
    EB

    Edit: just saw your post about a 120mm stem. Dude, do yourself a favor and put a 100, 90 or even a 70 mm stem on that bike and get the most out of it. I realize the wheelbase issue is your concern, but it isn't that dramatic and the bike will handle so much better with a shorter stem.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    That blue color is killer.

    Speculation is fun, but really no one knows how it's gonna feel until you ride it.

    What fork will go on the EG? That will affect ride feel as well.

    What are the other bikes on your list?
    Speculation IS fun. I love having options.

    I have an AM1 w/thru axle. I think that fork would be spot on for the EG.

    Short List:
    RFX
    6.6
    Spec Enduro (very popular around here)
    Nomad (also vey popular around here)
    Transition has some good looking frames

    I'm sure the list will grow. I'm probably going to look for slightly used so that will be a large factor in my decision.

  22. #22
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    I haven't seen the Duncon Akita personally (looks beefy), but the BR is definitely overbuilt. I've got several buddies on them and they're burly......35 lbs. is realistic with a lighter build.
    Oh, don't get me wrong... I'm sure those are pretty sturdy, neither I was implying they're weaksauce. Not at all.

    Here's the Akita, just for the sake of comparison...

    http://www.duncon.com/index.php?id=p...5&kat=geometry



    But I also think he'll be fine on the EG with your recommendations. 120mm was too much for such a small bike.
    Check my Site

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    I haven't seen the Duncon Akita personally (looks beefy), but the BR is definitely overbuilt. I've got several buddies on them and they're burly......35 lbs. is realistic with a lighter build.

    Woodyak, I agree that if you're being hooked up with a deal on an El G upgrade (which is the right thing to do, btw) that stating you might just sell it immediately is bad form.....even if it's true. The last thing folks that go out of their way to help someone want to see is you sell their frame as soon as you get it. Of course, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit....but you may want to get some saddle time on it before you make that call. Also, not sure what size stem you use, but a shorter stem might help alleviate any issues in TT length. The demand is such that even a slightly ridden El G will still command top dollar.

    Cheers,
    EB
    I hear you loud and clear. A big issue that I was kind of embarrased to bring up is the $ issue. $ is real tight for me now so spending the $ for the upgrade and then getting the necessary parts is putting me in a real bind. I ran the numbers and if I can find a slightly used frame at the right price and sell the EG for a reasonable price then I can have a bike and not be broke. I've bought a bunch of stuff from him and sent some of my buddies his way so he knows he is appreciated.

    So before when I said I could look at any bike that I wanted that wasn't true. I'll really be looking for a slightly used frame (I've actually seen some recently).

    I'm sure I could get the EG to fit with some fairly minor adjustments but can I afford it? Maybe, maybe not.
    Last edited by woodyak; 06-28-2007 at 08:14 AM.

  24. #24
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    A Pearl and V-brake bosses? WTF?
    Extreme stationary biker.

  25. #25
    Ti is addictive
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    Nice to hear that they have provided a nice solution to you Woody. Please at least try the EG. If you have the fork most of your parts from the ML should switch over.
    "Can I put a Totem on a FTM?".....Originally Posted by All Mountain

  26. #26
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    A Pearl and V-brake bosses? WTF?
    Hey, I happen to know another bike that's coming with the pearl!

    V brakes are coming back, yo! Just you wait......

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    I just went through this myself...
    did you decide on a new frame?

  28. #28
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    did you decide on a new frame?
    perhaps....

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    When in doubt about sizing, I think a larger frame makes more sense for "in between" aggressive riders.
    I politely disagree.

    I'd rather ride a smaller bike.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  30. #30
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    I had it built up with a 120mm stem w/no spacers and an AM1 set at 140-145mm. I had a good bit of exposed seatpost, enough so the seat was slightly higher than the bars. I could go with a shorter stem but I am concerned about the longer wheelbase. I come from a bmx background as a kid so I like how the smaller bikes handle.
    whoa, in that case I would FOR SURE go with a frame that has a longer top tube, the subtract that extra length from the stem. I've tried both extremes and the only situations where I preffered the shorter wheelbase was for technical climbing, or really slow twisty trails (we do have lots of those around here).

    With the bikes I currently own, I know I prefer the longer wheelbase/shorter stem of my highline on elevated stuff and while catching air.

    I'm typically skeptical of all things Gary FIsher, but he was on to something with Genesis Geometry- same fit, longer top tube+ short stem = more high speed stability and more resistance to endo'ing on steep downhills. When I'm frame shoppin', I usually know the total length I need between seat tube and bars (about 26.5"). Then I say, "I like the handling I get with a 70-90mm stem", that means I need a 23.5
    top tube......
    Last edited by FM; 06-08-2007 at 01:46 PM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    that means I need a 23.5 top tube......
    Mmmhhhh.... Medium size Transition??
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  32. #32
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    I politely disagree.

    I'd rather ride a smaller bike.

    But with a longer stem to get the same fit? Then you're just moving weight towards the front wheel....

    F.O. with your politeness, seal clubber!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    perhaps....
    tease.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    But with a longer stem to get the same fit? Then you're just moving weight towards the front wheel....

    F.O. with your politeness, seal clubber!
    Umm, not necessarily a longer stem either...I just like smaller bikes. I'll take reduced climbing efficiency for improved technical handling anyday.

    FWIW, I like a smaller bike for elevated stuff and catching air. I feel they are more manuverable. The longer/bigger bikes handle like a battleship...some people really like that feeling...gives them "confidence". Well, it's a crutch I say...and it scares the hell out of me. I like to be able to turn my bike.

    I guess I'm just a better rider than you.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    I'm typically skeptical of all things Gary FIsher, but he was on to something with Genesis Geometry- same fit, longer top tube+ short stem = more high speed stability and more resistance to endo'ing on steep downhills. When I'm frame shoppin', I usually know the total length I need between seat tube and bars (about 26.5"). Then I say, "I like the handling I get with a 70-90mm stem", that means I need a 23.5
    top tube......
    It's funny that you throw Genesis Geometry out ther because that's what I'm riding now. I have an old HKEK hardtail that I beefed up as my interium ride. I don't know about the handling on that bike, it's really awkward. I'm with Geo on this one. I like them short and small so I can throw the bike around. Ripping downhill has never frightened me so I don't really need the stability. If I'm getting a large travel bike I'm going in the air that's for sure

  36. #36
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Umm, not necessarily a longer stem either...I just like smaller bikes. I'll take reduced climbing efficiency for improved technical handling anyday.

    FWIW, I like a smaller bike for elevated stuff and catching air. I feel they are more manuverable. The longer/bigger bikes handle like a battleship...some people really like that feeling...gives them "confidence". Well, it's a crutch I say...and it scares the hell out of me. I like to be able to turn my bike.

    I guess I'm just a better rider than you.

    I agree! I hate a long wheelbase.... and I'm a better rider than Geo, so that tells ya something.



    Edit: but FM makes a great point about "needing" a longer stem, and therefor ending monkeyf@cking the handlebars on the descents.

  37. #37
    the 36 year old grom
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    All this talk about building and un building el guapos….Anybody know how to get a headset out of an el guapo??? Just a random question. The head tube is internally butted so I don’t think the standard removers will work.

    http://www.biketoolsetc.com/Product_Images/PA-RT2.jpg

    The standard flared headset removers rely on the head tube to line the tines up with the headset cup. Given the large step in the butting on the guapo head tube, I think the times would get stuck on the butting and not press out the head set cup.

  38. #38
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Umm, not necessarily a longer stem either...I just like smaller bikes. I'll take reduced climbing efficiency for improved technical handling anyday.
    That I understand and agree with. But woodyak running a 120mm stem... I mean I haven't ridden with him and don't truly know his riding style... but to me, 120mm stem means either the frame is too small, or the rider prefers XC-style fit (weight-forward bias for long climbs)

    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    FWIW, I like a smaller bike for elevated stuff and catching air. I feel they are more manuverable. The longer/bigger bikes handle like a battleship...some people really like that feeling...gives them "confidence". Well, it's a crutch I say...and it scares the hell out of me. I like to be able to turn my bike.
    I think of bike fit as two separate topics:
    • pedaling fit- this is where your bars are in relation to your seat and pedals. You can get the same "pedaling fit" from a big bike with a short stem, or a small bike with a long stem and headset spacers.
    • Handling fit- this is your weight bias. Wheelbase, chainstay length, and long TT/short stem vs. short top tube and long stem, all move your weight around between/over the wheels.


    So you can get your hands, feet and ass all in the right place with a small frame or a large frame, just depends on the stem length/rise & seatpost adjustments.

    I like the smaller "pedaling fit" you are talkin about, but within that fit, I prefer a larger frame/shorter stem "handling fit" for the reasons mentioned.

    just my .02c

    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    I guess I'm just a better rider than you.
    That's what the seals say. I'll take their word for it!


  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    ...monkeyf@cking the handlebars...

    Damn that was funny. I just gotta funny look from a roughneck...different from the standard funny look that I usually get.

    FM said, "words, words, words...just my .02c"

    That's about twice as much as that opinion is worth.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  40. #40
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    The standard flared headset removers rely on the head tube to line the tines up with the headset cup. Given the large step in the butting on the guapo head tube, I think the times would get stuck on the butting and not press out the head set cup.
    1.- Screwdriver, primitve, barbarian, but YOU will never confuse the headset with the headtube. Well, if the cups end where the butting begins, you're SOL anyways.

    2.- Collets... supposing you can get one from you local machine shop and that you don't end with the bearings in hand and the cups in the frame.

    3.- Dremel and cut off the dang cups.

    In all seriousness... how do you remove one of those?
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  41. #41
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    long stems are for sissies

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    perhaps....
    ordered a Jamis ?~?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Umm, not necessarily a longer stem either...I just like smaller bikes. I'll take reduced climbing efficiency for improved technical handling anyday.

    FWIW, I like a smaller bike for elevated stuff and catching air. I feel they are more manuverable. The longer/bigger bikes handle like a battleship...some people really like that feeling...gives them "confidence". Well, it's a crutch I say...and it scares the hell out of me. I like to be able to turn my bike.

    I guess I'm just a better rider than you.
    you just like having shorter chainstays to make the bike more maneuverable

  44. #44
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover

    FM said, "words, words, words..."


  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    you just like having shorter chainstays to make the bike more maneuverable
    Not true. I also like shorter chainstays, but they are independent of each other IMO. Apparently, I like to monkeyf@ck the handlebars....

    FM, I do agree with you...a 120mm stem is no bueno. That bike was likely too small.

    Woody, have you given us your measurements? How tall, etc.?
    Extreme stationary biker.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    I agree! I hate a long wheelbase.... and I'm a better rider than Geo, so that tells ya something.

    Edit: but FM makes a great point about "needing" a longer stem, and therefor ending monkeyf@cking the handlebars on the descents.
    I had 3-4 bikes with 22.5" top tubes and 110-130mm stems before coming to see the light.

    Now liking 23.25"+ top tubes with 50-90mm stems on my last 3 bikes.

    1" longer top tube, 2" shorter stem.

    Longer wheelbase rules for the steeps. Look at DH bikes, always longer wheelbases...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  47. #47
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    FM said, "words, words, words...just my .02c"
    Is your top tube longer than your attention span?

    I'll try to dumb it down for you emoticon fan boys

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    I had 3-4 bikes with 22.5" top tubes and 110-130mm stems before coming to see the light.

    Now liking 23.25"+ top tubes with 50-90mm stems on my last 3 bikes.

    1" longer top tube, 2" shorter stem.

    Longer wheelbase rules for the steeps. Look at DH bikes, always longer wheelbases...
    For the record, I would never use a stem longer than say 90mm. I'm 6'2". My SuMo has a TT of 23.8...I use a 70mm stem. It's perfect.When I was looking at the SixPack I nearly bought the MEDIUM...because it felt better than the Large (23.4 vs. 24.2). My XL stinky had a 23.4 TT. I loved how that bike fit with a 50mm stem. I could still outpedal most.

    Longer wheelbase rules the speed, not the steeps. Slacker angles are what keep the steeps happy. My large sumo has a 44 inch wheelbase and can go down anything any DH bike can do...and if I need to turn during the decent, I can do it better.

    Of course, this is my opinion...YMMV.

    Great photo, BTW!
    Extreme stationary biker.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Longer wheelbase rules the speed, not the steeps. Slacker angles are what keep the steeps happy.
    True.. and those slack angles are part of what makes the wheelbase long. Why does a slack head tube feel better on steeps? partly cause it moves the front wheel away from you.

    if you have real slack angles and short chainstays (to shorten up the wheelbase, since the slack angles made it longer) then the bike starts to climb poorly. All your weight is over the back end, and the steeper the hill, the more horizontal your fork gets.

    So this is why a lot of brands are going to the slack angles, short top tube and LONGER chainstays... nomad for instance. so you get... a longer wheelbase!

    Anyways I'm not disagreeing.... just sayin'. It's a package deal...... gotta look at the whole package.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    True.. and those slack angles are part of what makes the wheelbase long. Why does a slack head tube feel better on steeps? partly cause it moves the front wheel away from you.

    if you have real slack angles and short chainstays (to shorten up the wheelbase, since the slack angles made it longer) then the bike starts to climb poorly. All your weight is over the back end, and the steeper the hill, the more horizontal your fork gets.

    So this is why a lot of brands are going to the slack angles, short top tube and LONGER chainstays... nomad for instance. so you get... a longer wheelbase!

    Anyways I'm not disagreeing.... just sayin'. It's a package deal...... gotta look at the whole package.
    Yup, and there is only one package that has the perfect combination of WB, slack angles and climbing ability (relative for its class)...and that is the Titus Supermoto.

    For me, it is/was the perfect "one" bike. Now I have the money for more than one bike and having it is spoiling my search for a second bike. The sumo just feels so good.

    FM, you bought the wrong Titus.
    Extreme stationary biker.

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