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  1. #1
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Time to Market...is Titus ahead of the Curve?

    Demo and I were having a bit of back and forth on the Carbon Seat Stay thread about the SuMo and how it fits in the Titus quiver. The SuMo is interesting because Titus bills it as a go anywhere do anyhing bike, but when it came out, it was placed in that nebulus catagory of "Black Diamond" rig.

    Well I know how you guys feel about that moniker, but at the time it was used to describe a bike lighter than a full on FR Rig that could be pedaled up a mountain and still handle the likes of a Lift Assisted Resort environment. Today we use the term "Heavy Duty Trail" bike to describe a 6" travel bike that can be pedaled uphill and still absorb the abuse of a rugged downhill run. So what's the difference?

    I personally believe that the SuMo was about a year late to Market and when it did hit, it was quickly over taken by lighter 6" travel frames. The frame was I believe overbuilt and therefore suffered because it fell between catagories. It was FR capable but a little short of travel for huge hucks and wasn't marketed that way. It was a little too heavy for all day climbing and was quickly over taken by the likes of the Nomad, FXR and 6-Pack.

    Now every manufacturer has its marketing lemon. I believe Foes screwed up from a Marketing point of view with the Inferno. To me it is a dead-end design. I mean the difference between the FXR and the Inferno is minimal and the FXR is a better climber. If you want more travel go with a Fly. And next year the 2008 Fly will make the Inferno even more irrelavent.

    So what I'm saying is that the SuMo was a great concept in a well built package that was a little late to the market and got over run by lighter and more capable designs....that's all. The bigger question is what does Titus want to achive with the New SuMo and will it too be behind the curve?

    And what about the El Guapo? I believe it is a response to the market rather than a market leader. I pose this question to the group, has Titus lost it's insight into how the market is evolving and if so, what do they need to re-gain that focus? Where do you think the Trail Bike/FR Market is headed and in what areas do you see the "evolution" being a "revolution"? Will Titus be leading that revolution or will they be part of the evolution?

    Have at it!!!
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  2. #2
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    The SuMo is stupid and I hate it.
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  3. #3
    Chilling out
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    I have no first-hand knowledge of the designers at titus, other than I know that at least two of them have left (AFAIK this includes Mr. Cocalis) that predate the revision to it's current business arrangement - I'm really JUST a consumer.

    That said, while I kind-a like the El G, the SuMo is the last frameset they have on the market that I would be interested in. As a solid Clydesdale I'll never be more than casually interested in most anything with the syllables that are a homonym to "light" in the name - or "racer" for that matter.

    Also, while I have not taken a very close look at the fabrication quality of the stuff currently not produced in Tempe, and I understand the forces of wanting to be more price competitive, I feel that possibly Titus may be losing a notch on the fabrication quality ... which was one of the two fundamental things that led me to them in '03 to begin with (the other being a suitable frameset with the geometry I wanted ... a Quasi-Moto to be specific).

    I keep wondering that when my Quasi wears out, which has to happen eventually as it's still only made of aluminum, whether I'll be able to get them to dust off their blueprints and do me a titanium version. Here I am, four years later, loving the crap out of my bike, and as far as I know there is nothing directly comparable on the market. Sure sure, there's lots of 6" bikes out there now, but couple that with the robustness I seek w/o the weight I don't seek and the geometry I like and THEN let me know what my options are. I'm sure I'll end up with something completely custom at that point, but if I had to replace my bike right now TODAY - when I really can't afford 3-5k for a frameset - I'd be screwed.

    I do feel that Titus is responding to competition now (reactive) more than making them respond (proactive) and while it's not necessary EVIL it's not necessarily GREAT either. Then again, if they're more profitable now, that is probably a driver for the situation.

  4. #4
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    El Guapo seems like a catch-up... but still on time... if it gets good reviews, it could put Titus back "in focus"... time will tell

    I see trailbikes going at 6"-7" and the weight coming down to high 20s... but with through axle forks and even TA rearends (as in more rear Maxles out there)

    FR bikes will just keep growing in travel and getting lighter... maybe internal gearbox as mainstream

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    FR bikes will just keep growing in travel and getting lighter... maybe internal gearbox as mainstream
    Slopestyle/FR bikes will be the next big thing. Transition is sitting pretty for this next thing. The Bottlerocket is selling like hot-cakes...mmm, cake....

    Anyway, I see less travel with lower bottom brackets on the horizon for FR/DH. There will still be a market/place for "regular" FR bikes, but we're talkin' bout curves here...internal gearbox seems like a stretch to me.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  6. #6
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Slopestyle/FR bikes will be the next big thing. Transition is sitting pretty for this next thing. The Bottlerocket is selling like hot-cakes...mmm, cake....

    Anyway, I see less travel with lower bottom brackets on the horizon for FR/DH. There will still be a market/place for "regular" FR bikes, but we're talkin' bout curves here...internal gearbox seems like a stretch to me.
    the gearbox thing I see as a long run thing...mostly if they manage to make it lighter... but frames like the Nicolai G-Box could play nicely in DH if they get lighter

  7. #7
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Slopestyle/FR bikes will be the next big thing. Transition is sitting pretty for this next thing. The Bottlerocket is selling like hot-cakes...mmm, cake....

    Anyway, I see less travel with lower bottom brackets on the horizon for FR/DH. There will still be a market/place for "regular" FR bikes, but we're talkin' bout curves here...internal gearbox seems like a stretch to me.
    Good point... FR and DH frames seem to have "topped" at 8" travel. There was a time when there was a race to produce the longest travel rigs for descending. There are still the V10 and others.

    So, now the top of the crop is at 8"... is a 7" FR rig really worthy? Or should you stay at six more efficient ones?

    Then if so, what's the purpose of "light" 6" bikes as the "heavy duty" become lighter and stronger??

    IMHO, the Quasi was way ahead it's time and even with a few touches here and there, it could have been a "Nomad killer". Now these duties fall on the El Guapo... which can be considered as a reaction to this segment of bikes or the evolution of the Quasi... but the second theory gets killed by the fact that between the Quasi and the EG there are like three (maybe four) production years.

    Definitievly, nowadays there's not much you can innovate at, so evolution is a safer path to tread on.

    They still have work to do.
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  8. #8
    the 36 year old grom
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    I got my SuMo in 2004. there was no such thing as a Nomad. the enduro was an 5 inch XC bike. the 6 pack had a high leverage ratio ( 2 inch stroke). and the FXR of that era snaps like a twig. The new fly was still a year away

    you want to talk about ahead of the curve. it was the Moment. its as fresh today as it was in then. 6 inch trail bike.

  9. #9
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug

    you want to talk about ahead of the curve. it was the Moment. its as fresh today as it was in then. 6 inch trail bike.

    Yeah I guess so? It sure is pirdy!

    But I think old TE thought he was making a 5" bike, and it turned up 6". Or all he was thinking at the time was it's one more inch than the Spot... ie it goes to 11.

  10. #10
    "Its All Good"
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    This is indeed a huge topic.... One I dont think that Titus is reactive or proactive, just doing there thing, which I admire...

    Take a look at the Turner website and how they define their frame lineup, they dont know where things sit... Read the blurb on the RFX. = RFX Rough XC & All Mountain

    What defines AM, light FR etc. Most believe that the RFX in its element should be above 35 pounds, DT's own RFX is 30 pounds...

    I get lost hugely.... In Sedoan last week, there were loads of SuMo's, and they were carving it up...

    Am lost now, cant ya tell..
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  11. #11
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Titus can do it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Good point... FR and DH frames seem to have "topped" at 8" travel.

    IMHO, the Quasi was way ahead it's time and even with a few touches here and there, it could have been a "Nomad killer".

    Definitievly, nowadays there's not much you can innovate at, so evolution is a safer path to tread on.
    I agree with Warp....the Quasi was "revolutionary". I rode one for many years and then got caught up in the propaganda from Titus about the SuMo being a better Quasi and ditched it. The Quasi was one sweet riding rig. I think the SC Bullit also fits the "revolutionary" bill and then I think of my K2 Proflex Animal in 1998....5" of travel, 30lbs and where are we today?

    Getting back to the point, I believe the development of Platform Technology has made longer travel suspensions much more capable. You now have ground eatting ability matched to climbing stability. This seems to be pushing the fork market to 7-8" in a single crown fork. That will drive the Bike manufacturers to extend their frame designs to match.

    And the frame manufacturers now have technologies like Hydroforming and Composite materials to lighten these types of bikes while still maintaining strength.

    Using the 2008 Fly as an example, if anyone here has taken some time to look at the Sea Otter photos, what caught me is the upright design of it. It really isn't as slack as a full on FR rig would demand to be. So it is being designed to climb and I'm sure will handle some major hucks.

    It will be interesting to see if 8" travel "Trail Bikes" do become a reality. Do we need 8" of travel? Well I guess my take on that is that there was a time when know one really thought you needed more than 4" to ride trails and 8-10" was the realm of DH rigs. But now that we can ride 6" travel bikes I've found that the ride is even smoother. So there may come a day when we all realise how bottomless and smooth an 8" ride can be and also have the stability to pedal the thing up a major climb.

    Now that doesn't mean there won't be a market for HT and 4" travel XC rockets, However, when it comes to "trail riding" its obvious there's a wide range of "trails" and maybe there is a distinct market for 27-28lb 5" rides like the ML and 7-8" 32-34lb rides like the Sumo could be....which means that the 6" market may evolve further to meld with the FR market. DH....well, DH will always be DOWN HILL.

    So will Titus read this and realize they really need to make the new SuMo lighter and longer? If so, they may just get back to leading the market and not following it.

    That's my take and I'm sticking with it....
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  12. #12
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    you want to talk about ahead of the curve. it was the Moment. its as fresh today as it was in then. 6 inch trail bike.
    I'd agree with that....the Moment is an awesome bike...a buddy of mine races his as an XC racer and is fast as h3ll. I told him if he got a real XC sled he'd be even faster and he replied..."not downhill"....
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  13. #13
    thats right living legend
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    In my limited exp and along with almost everything I've ever heard the SuMo is anything but "marketing hyp".

  14. #14
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Well I guess my take on that is that there was a time when know one really thought you needed more than 4" to ride trails and 8-10" was the realm of DH rigs. But now that we can ride 6" travel bikes I've found that the ride is even smoother. So there may come a day when we all realise how bottomless and smooth an 8" ride can be and also have the stability to pedal the thing up a major climb.
    As much as I don't miss MBA, I miss some of RC's Editorials...

    There was one of them that depicted that, actually two maybe were related.... But one was focused to Trail Access and the other to "how much technology is too much".

    But it had good points... At what point we will top what we "need" to ride. I mean, I ride the same trails as I did years ago, but now everything seems easier. So we have to look somewhere else for new trails and new challenges.

    Where are we going to top it??
    When we will have enough?

    Also, I like to see lighter figures, better suspension and what not.
    But it worries me to see that years pass by, frames get lighter, travel is bigger... but are we using the same aluminum alloys??

    Ok, in some frames we have now composites, computer power helps make better modelings and achieve higher strength and lower weights... but welding is welding, fatigue is fatigue and we can push the envelope just to a certain extent.

    We'll get to the point where we (and manufacturers) will have to decide if we want to ride a 7 pounds "pig" that will take the punishment of the intended use or a 5.5 pounds marvel that will do better for a shorter period of time.

    Personally, I think we should get to a "plateau" and trade innovation for (slow) evolution.


    :RANT:
    Don't you get tired to see your brake/fork/shock/(insert component or even frame name here) gets outdated each year but prices go up at the same time???
    :END OF RANT:

    What you guys think?

    On the Sumo... It has an identity crisis now the EG is here. Titus will do good in either make it a DH or FR dedicated rig. It has the capability, let the EG to take over the AM-Light FR duties. Let Titus evolve it, polish it, get it nailed with time. Not that it's not a killer bike now, I'm just saying that they rather get the best out of it with time. Not pressed by year-model stuff.
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  15. #15
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    In my limited exp and along with almost everything I've ever heard the SuMo is anything but "marketing hyp".
    Yeah, it's more like the "Ugly Duckling"... Very underrated bike.
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  16. #16
    "Its All Good"
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    Well at Bike n Bean, their SuMo sits at the front where everyone see's it...Being an ugly duckling is all good... Like a car with bulk power that you cant tell, thats when people do steamy cigars in the undies....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  17. #17
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Well at Bike n Bean, their SuMo sits at the front where everyone see's it...Being an ugly duckling is all good... Like a car with bulk power that you cant tell, thats when people do steamy cigars in the undies....
    Just to clarify, I said Ugly Duckling as a compliment. Hell, the price is right too.
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  18. #18
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp

    But it had good points... At what point we will top what we "need" to ride. I mean, I ride the same trails as I did years ago, but now everything seems easier. So we have to look somewhere else for new trails and new challenges.

    Where are we going to top it??
    When we will have enough?
    that's were the HT SS (Eleven in Titus tongue ) in the quiver comes in... it keeps you humble and reminds that your FS does a lot of work... also polishes up the skills (or lack there of) that the FS takes care of

  19. #19
    the 36 year old grom
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    I saw the 2008 fly up and close... but was so blinded by the blingyness of the clean shinny brushed aluminum, I failed to actually think about what the bike was... other then eye candy. It looked heavy. And the shock was dead ugly.

    I totally disagree with this more travel is better BS. Travel, stiffness and weight are always going to be at odds with each other.

    More travel doesn’t do you anything unless you use it….. or does it???? Actually it does do a lot, because the spring rate is lighter. But most people don’t want to pedal that mushy of a bike. I like it. I trail rode my Sumo sagged out and under sprung. Worked great for me, got me a low BB too.


    If I was to rant on the subject it would be that all the new low BB frames coming out, I can’t over sag them, the BB is already low, so now I have to run 30% sag. or else!!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    And the shock was dead ugly.
    My least favorite part of all time...the Curnutt shock. Sticky-icky poo-poo. Not how it looks, but how it performs. Talk about behind the curve.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  21. #21
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    My least favorite part of all time...the Curnutt shock. Sticky-icky poo-poo. Not how it looks, but how it performs. Talk about behind the curve.
    Uhmmmm....well I'd beg to differ. And not just because I'm a Foes Fan....

    Without the Curnutt shock you wouldn't have platform anything. Of course maybe you are one of the Ludite riders around here who think any shock/fork with platform and compression dampening adjustment is "constipated".....but I'll let the number of said shocks/forks who are using the technology that Curnutt and Foes contributed to the industry speak for itself.

    The comments you make Geo sometimes amaze me....

    Anywho...I'd counter that the development of platform technology has added stability so that pedal bob is a thing of the past and we can actually ride 6" bikes that climb because of it.
    Last edited by Dropin%Dug; 06-23-2007 at 08:45 AM.
    Dug-da-Goat

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Uhmmmm....well I'd beg to differ. And not just because I'm a Foes Fan....

    Without the Curnutt shock you wouldn't have platform anything. Of course maybe you are one of the Ludite riders around here who think any shock/fork with platform and compression dampening adjustment is "constipated".....but I'll let the number of said shocks/forks who are using the technology that Curnutt and Foes contributed to the industry speak for itself.

    The comments you make Geo sometimes amaze me....

    Anywho...I'd counter that the development of platform technology has added stability so that pedal bob is a thing of the past and we can actually ride 6" bikes that climb because of it.
    Yup, I'm a "Ludite"! And damn proud of it. I know the Curnutt technology was a tremendous contribution to biking technology. Many people like it. I don't. I don't really like the way it feels. FWIW, my bike doesn't really have pedal bob issues so I don't feel the platform necessary...and I definitely don't want to give up small bump compliance. Actually, my bike climbs better with no platform (more active rear!)

    Maybe I shouldn't have added the "behind the curve statement"...but you are attacking a bike (SuMo) that I love...a bike I feel people don't really understand. Maybe I was being a little defensive. Maybe I'm just a dyck.

    I still don't like how the Curnutt shock rides.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  23. #23
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Yup, I'm a "Ludite"! And damn proud of it. I know the Curnutt technology was a tremendous contribution to biking technology. Many people like it. I don't. I don't really like the way it feels. FWIW, my bike doesn't really have pedal bob issues so I don't feel the platform necessary...and I definitely don't want to give up small bump compliance. Actually, my bike climbs better with no platform (more active rear!)

    Maybe I shouldn't have added the "behind the curve statement"...but you are attacking a bike (SuMo) that I love...a bike I feel people don't really understand. Maybe I was being a little defensive. Maybe I'm just a dyck.

    I still don't like how the Curnutt shock rides.

    What year is your bike?... I forget.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    What year is your bike?... I forget.
    You forget? After all we've been through? You really know how to make a guy feel loved...

    2006. Copper Ano. One sexy beyotch!
    Extreme stationary biker.

  25. #25
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Yup, I'm a "Ludite"! And damn proud of it. I know the Curnutt technology was a tremendous contribution to biking technology. Many people like it. I don't. I don't really like the way it feels. FWIW, my bike doesn't really have pedal bob issues so I don't feel the platform necessary...and I definitely don't want to give up small bump compliance. Actually, my bike climbs better with no platform (more active rear!)

    Maybe I shouldn't have added the "behind the curve statement"...but you are attacking a bike (SuMo) that I love...a bike I feel people don't really understand. Maybe I was being a little defensive. Maybe I'm just a dyck.

    I still don't like how the Curnutt shock rides.
    I can understand that....you are right that the platform does take away from small bump compliance, but that's part of the price to maintain stability (ie; no bob) during the climb.

    And I will admit that the Curnutt shocks are "stiff" as opposed to "plush". I think they bias more towards a pretty stout platform to work of off. I like it for climbing, but I have even commented on the Foes board that the Curnutt Coil is a bit stiff (ie; harsh) for me. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the Curnutt Air with Krispy and we'll see if it is a bit more plush than the coil. Word out is that it is.

    As to the SuMo....I agree I was a bit harsh in my statements. The SuMo is a great FR/"Black Diamond" bike and that's from someone who has actually owned one. However, I stand by my point that to put a 5" standard axel front fork on it and run light components to get it to 34lbs to me just reflects that it is over built for typical Trail Riding. Not that "over built" is a bad thing if you're a Clyde.
    Dug-da-Goat

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    However, I stand by my point that to put a 5" standard axel front fork on it and run light components to get it to 34lbs to me just reflects that it is over built for typical Trail Riding. Not that "over built" is a bad thing if you're a Clyde.
    FWIW, my large 2006 SuMo weighed 8.5 pounds (not since I switched to the coil roco)...could easily build a 34 pound bike with DH/FR capabilities. Of course, you could buy a socom that weighs the same and has more travel...but that would just be silly.
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  27. #27
    on my 3rd wind...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug

    As to the SuMo....I agree I was a bit harsh in my statements. The SuMo is a great FR/"Black Diamond" bike and that's from someone who has actually owned one. However, I stand by my point that to put a 5" standard axel front fork on it and run light components to get it to 34lbs to me just reflects that it is over built for typical Trail Riding. Not that "over built" is a bad thing if you're a Clyde.
    My 06 Sumo is around 32-33lbs. I used to own Foes Fly 3yrs before I sold the frame. It was great in lift access ski resort or shuttle run but I just don't ride those conditions enough. I like to pedal up as much as down.

    After selling my Fly, I spent 6 months looking for another stout frame that is climb friendly and weighs 7.5-8.5lbs range. I had seriously considered following frames during last winter: 06 FXR, 06 RFX, 6.6, Sumo, & EG.

    Based on price, availability, frame weight, and horst-link pivot preference I had, I pulled the trigger on new Sumo for $1250.
    - EG: I would had to pay $800 more on the frame, geometry (short tt and bb height) was not to my liking, no one knew when it will be available, and only little over 1lbs lighter.
    - 06 FXR: premium price, almost same weight as Sumo, not horst link.
    - 06 RFX: saw some good deal then but faux-bar pivot made me steer away.
    - 6.6: I am big fan of Intense being a Tracer owner but didn’t like VPP feedback I read and its high premium.

    I am very stoked with my Sumo. It pedals better than Fly and feels just as big hit capable in my realm. FLY does have a stiffer rear-end but who does. I run fairly stout setup for my 155lbs weight. Easton Havoc wheel w/ 2.35 Nevegal DTC, DH worthy bar & seatpost, fork duties are shared among Marz All mtn 1, Z1 light, & RS Pike. I could have built the same spec bike with 1lbs lighter frame but I really dig the versatility Sumo offers in case I want to push the envelop. So I will happily carry that extra 1 lb weight in my frame.

    So is Titus (to be specific Sumo) ahead of the curve? I think they are up there with other leading frame builders based on reasons I stated above. Then again, we the riders decide how we want to use the frame and what parts we put on it so we have greater effect on changing that curve…for better or worse. Seriously, is one frame builder that much better than others in this day and age?
    Last edited by SingleTrackHound; 06-25-2007 at 06:51 PM.
    sth

  28. #28
    thats right living legend
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    Man! It's near impossible to find anyone that's owned a SuMo past or presant/new version that isn't simply blown away by it. I want one! If I couldn't find big enough stuff to hit wih it around here I could alway's sell it? eh? I don't need nothin.

  29. #29
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    Sorry if I am slow to catch on but are you guys saying that Titus is coming out with a new SuMo? I thought it was discontinued. See what happens when I go away for a little while?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    I can understand that....you are right that the platform does take away from small bump compliance, but that's part of the price to maintain stability (ie; no bob) during the climb.

    And I will admit that the Curnutt shocks are "stiff" as opposed to "plush". I think they bias more towards a pretty stout platform to work of off. I like it for climbing, but I have even commented on the Foes board that the Curnutt Coil is a bit stiff (ie; harsh) for me. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the Curnutt Air with Krispy and we'll see if it is a bit more plush than the coil. Word out is that it is.

    As to the SuMo....I agree I was a bit harsh in my statements. The SuMo is a great FR/"Black Diamond" bike and that's from someone who has actually owned one. However, I stand by my point that to put a 5" standard axel front fork on it and run light components to get it to 34lbs to me just reflects that it is over built for typical Trail Riding. Not that "over built" is a bad thing if you're a Clyde.

    Maybe you just built yours up wrong? Mine, which is an 05 model, is weighing in at 32 pounds (i know I posted 33 but I recently weighed it on a far more accurate scale) running 7" coil in the rear and 6" maverick air in the front. If it was not running downhill tires, say some maxxis high rollers UST 2.35, I would be at 32 or less easily. Pedals great (I beat my friends Nomad uphill and goes down like a downhilll specific bike. The geometry is adjustable and the frame is super beefy. Now I know this is not a cheap build but its possible to make IMHO the perfect all mountain/trail bike out of it. I guess everyone just has a different opinion of what their perfect bike is and Titus certainly did not seem to market it as heavily as a racer x, EG, or ML. I do however believe the Titus SM was and still is a great bike. Without a doubt in my mind is easily holds its own against the other bikes you mentioned including the Nomad which IMHO gets more credit than it deserves.


    Dropin%Dug I do however think you bring up a good point by saying:

    "Well I know how you guys feel about that moniker, but at the time it was used to describe a bike lighter than a full on FR Rig that could be pedaled up a mountain and still handle the likes of a Lift Assisted Resort environment. Today we use the term "Heavy Duty Trail" bike to describe a 6" travel bike that can be pedaled uphill and still absorb the abuse of a rugged downhill run. So what's the difference?"

    Trail, FR, downhill not sure the terms mean a whole lot of anything anymore. Not really sure it matters. Not that suspensions are so good and everything is getting so light its becoming easier and easier to have one more bike that can truly do it all. A great time we live in

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Man! It's near impossible to find anyone that's owned a SuMo past or presant/new version that isn't simply blown away by it. I want one! If I couldn't find big enough stuff to hit wih it around here I could alway's sell it? eh? I don't need nothin.

    Keep searching man. I spent quite awhile looking for a used one and its was worth the wait! One of my favorite bikes I have ever ridden by far

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberjad
    Keep searching man. I spent quite awhile looking for a used one and its was worth the wait! One of my favorite bikes I have ever ridden by far
    Yup... I keep my eyes open for that elusive 2004 5.7" SuMo in medium or small size... but nothing pops up...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Yup... I keep my eyes open for that elusive 2004 5.7" SuMo in medium or small size... but nothing pops up...

    Warp ever have a chance to ride the 5.7" compared to the 6/7" coffin rocker?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Yup... I keep my eyes open for that elusive 2004 5.7" SuMo in medium or small size... but nothing pops up...
    Warp, curious...why 04 Sumo instead of 06 or newer? Lower price, steeper HA, cool Titus blue color, or all of the above?

    I think Speedgoat still has 06 Sumo in small w/ 5.8"/6.8" rocker for $1149.
    sth

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberjad
    Warp ever have a chance to ride the 5.7" compared to the 6/7" coffin rocker?
    Nope... I've seen three Titus in my life (my SB, Rzoz's ML and some late 2006 from an unknown dude who fitted his ML with an RP23 and a Psylo fork).

    There are tons of high end bikes in Mexico, but only a handful from "Boutique" makers.

    The FR/DH crowd seems to be biased to Santa Cruz, Intense, Foes, etc...

    Titus are as rare in Mexico as snakes in the north pole, unfortunately.

    I'm looking at that 2004 with 5.7" rockers because I understand it's a tad lighter. I think the front end is different but I don't know if that is because it's the former design or indeed was made for "XC".... oh, and it's easier to get a deal on a 2004... yeah, I'm that cheap!!
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleTrackHound
    I think Speedgoat still has 06 Sumo in small w/ 5.8"/6.8" rocker for $1149.
    I think Warp is cheaper than this...

    Warp, I think you could find one...I see them from time to time on Ebay. I wouldn't worry about the linkage/shock if you find one...they give you identical (or close to) geometries. Weight could be an issue on the FR version, but you could ditch the coil shock and pick up a new roco air in the appropriate size.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    I think Warp is cheaper than this...

    Warp, I think you could find one...I see them from time to time on Ebay. I wouldn't worry about the linkage/shock if you find one...they give you identical (or close to) geometries. Weight could be an issue on the FR version, but you could ditch the coil shock and pick up a new roco air in the appropriate size.
    All good advice, Seal-Master!!!

    My SB keeps me happy and each time I ride it, UGI goes away. Dang, effing thing makes me smile.

    But when my Sb die, it most likely incarnate in a SuMo or ML.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleTrackHound
    My 06 Sumo is around 32-33lbs...... I run fairly stout setup for my 155lbs weight. Easton Havoc wheel w/ 2.35 Nevegal DTC, DH worthy bar & seatpost, fork duties are shared among Marz All mtn 1, Z1 light, & RS Pike. I could have built the same spec bike with 1lbs lighter frame but I really dig the versatility Sumo offers in case I want to push the envelop. So I will happily carry that extra 1 lb weight in my frame.
    Not that your bike doesn't weigh 32-33lbs but I couldn't get there. My frame was I believe a 2004 so maybe they have lightened things since then. The lightest I could get to was just under 37lbs. The bike shown here had EX823 UST's so that added some weight and it had the DHX5 with 7" coffin link and a Z-150. It weighed around 39 1/2lbs in this photo. I sansed the DHX/Zoch combo for a 4-Way Air and a Fox 36. I also went to a set of the XM819 rims. 36 3/4lbs was the best it was gonna do.

    So my point is yeah, I coulda thrown a standard axel Fox Float on it and an even lighter set of rims, but that kinda defeats the whole purpose. Like I said, I think the frame is overbuilt for what it is marketed as....a rugged trail bike.

    In comparison, I went to an FXR from here and never looked back. Owned a 2004 frame and then jumped on the 2006 2:1 when it came out. I have had those down to 32lbs. Present incarnation is 33lbs with the Wotan. Krispy just informed me the Air Curnutt is on the way, so that will jetison a pound there and I should be just under 32lbs. To me the ideal weight. Now if I can just get something like this in an 8" travel frame....uhmmmm, a 2008 Fly?
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    36 3/4lbs was the best it was gonna do.
    36 and a bit... was the lightest I ever got mine too. maybe ours had an extra pound of weld rod in it.

    got to say that the "time to market" thing goes both ways... because its really a window of opportunity. once upon a time foes had to make rear shox because he was an SPV pioneer. but that time has passed. time to pull the plug. so I think he's stayed to long at the party and is still dressed in disco. There are plenty of off the shelf shox that are as good or actually better. i'd totaly be interested in the FXR if I could fit a fox on it. or if it was rated for over 200LBS.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear
    Also, while I have not taken a very close look at the fabrication quality of the stuff currently not produced in Tempe, and I understand the forces of wanting to be more price competitive, I feel that possibly Titus may be losing a notch on the fabrication quality
    from what I've seen up here, a lot of people will agree with you, which is why we're selling Santa Cruz like 3:1 to Titus...people just do not want that brand. MotoLites, best mid-travel bike made, in my opinion, and we've sold 2 in 8 months. One was sold to the shop owner's friend at a discount, the other was on closeout. Thinking about it, I don't think we've sold 1 Titus at full price. We've got a Racer X Carbon priced modestly...no interest. We've got an Eleven priced modestly, no interest. Hell, we're still sitting on that Vuelo frame that's marked at half off retail.

    granted, we have sold 1 $14k Titus, but that was a fluke. Customer wanted custom ti and ultra-light (he's got $500 NJS pedals on it, as well as $4000 carbon clinchers...)

    and on the flip side, we had a customer send back his FCR after a 10wk wait, because he was not happy with the end result. instead, he's opted for an Erickson.

  41. #41
    the 36 year old grom
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Inbred
    from what I've seen up here, a lot of people will agree with you, which is why we're selling Santa Cruz like 3:1 to Titus...people just do not want that brand. MotoLites, best mid-travel bike made, in my opinion, and we've sold 2 in 8 months. One was sold to the shop owner's friend at a discount, the other was on closeout. Thinking about it, I don't think we've sold 1 Titus at full price. We've got a Racer X Carbon priced modestly...no interest. We've got an Eleven priced modestly, no interest. Hell, we're still sitting on that Vuelo frame that's marked at half off retail.

    granted, we have sold 1 $14k Titus, but that was a fluke. Customer wanted custom ti and ultra-light (he's got $500 NJS pedals on it, as well as $4000 carbon clinchers...)

    and on the flip side, we had a customer send back his FCR after a 10wk wait, because he was not happy with the end result. instead, he's opted for an Erickson.
    seems like titus has a reputation problem in the austin area.

  42. #42
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    no longer in Austin...

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    36 and a bit... was the lightest I ever got mine too. maybe ours had an extra pound of weld rod in it. .
    ...or before they started making them in China from the special "lightweight" aluminum.

    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    ...once upon a time foes had to make rear shox because he was an SPV pioneer. but that time has passed. time to pull the plug. so I think he's stayed to long at the party and is still dressed in disco....
    Brent & Curnutt developed SPV because there was a need for it; at least on Single Pivot designs. Which gets me back to why did we need it for FSR, HL, VPP and the such if they really did control pedal induced bob. But that's another thread.

    I do agree that Brent sat around and rested on his laurals for a while. It took a long time for him to come around to an Air Curnutt. He always thought that a coil shock was stronger (ie; less warrentee issues) and had a better spring curve. Can't say I totally disagree with him, except for the weight issue. He finally gave in and developed the Curnutt Air, but not until he developed the 2:1 linkage design. Too long at the party? In some respects, but not like he was stuck at the punch bowl.

    As to still "dressed in Disco"....we'll see. I'm getting ready to jump on the Air Curnutt and if it's anywhere near as revolutionary as the original Curnutt it could be quite the shock. I think next year though may be an eye opener if he can really deliver to market an 8" travel bike that you CAN build up at 34lbs and REALLY pedal up a mountain. That to me would be magic.
    Last edited by Dropin%Dug; 06-28-2007 at 06:37 AM.
    Dug-da-Goat

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  44. #44
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    D%D, your black Sumo with polished rear frame was a beauty! I much prefer that over my anodized copper. I am confused as to why such a weight difference between your old sumo vs. my new sumo. I see that yours even had light weight crankset and tires.

    But somehow you managed to get your new FXR down to 32lbs? When I was shopping for FXR last winter, I asked other new FXR owners for weight and was told 8.5lbs w/ Curnutt coil, a same weight as my 06 Sumo w/ DHX air.

    My 06 Sumo weighs 32-33lbs with 5lbs fork. Spec are: Easton Havoc w/ Nev DTC 2.3, RF Atlas crankset w/ bash, RF Diablous 31.8 bar, FSA FR220 90mm stem, FSA FR270 seatpost, SRAM X9 shifter & rear der, Shimano XT front der, Avid BB7 brakes & lever, WTB Rocket saddle, Time ATAC pedals, and 5lbs fork (Pike or All Mtn 1). I just remeasured and it scaled at 33lbs with 05 All Mtn 1 fork. I am going to swap the fork with 06 Z1 light ETA soon and will see what it weighs but I expect negligible weight gain. Is my scale off? Don't get it. If my Sumo build was 36lbs+, I would definitely run into same issue as my old Foes Fly build...too heavy to climb.

    Man...that Silver Foes with Curnutt air looks sharp!
    sth

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleTrackHound
    I am going to swap the fork with 06 Z1 light ETA soon and will see what it weighs but I expect negligible weight gain.
    Where did you get that fork? AM and I have been looking for one of those...

    BTW, the fork weighs about 5.7#...about the same weight as 66SL.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  46. #46
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Where did you get that fork? AM and I have been looking for one of those...
    .
    You haven't found one?...

    That's because you need to be looking under Z1 SL.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Where did you get that fork? AM and I have been looking for one of those...

    BTW, the fork weighs about 5.7#...about the same weight as 66SL.
    I guess then Z1 Light will add 0.5lbs to my Sumo at 33.5lbs since All Mtn 1 weighs little over 5lbs. I am getting ready to put it on Sumo since ski resorts are starting to open up. I have been very impressed w/ All Mtn 1 for local trail riding for its frontend stiffness and plush factor being QR.

    Yeah, it wasn't easy find nor cheap. When I was building my Sumo, so many folks said I need something w/ more travel than Pike so I shopped around and luckly found a mint used 06 Z1 Light ETA. Paid premium for it but that fork looks like a definite keeper and I am sure it will ride like one too. For 90% of the riding I do, Pike and All mtn 1 has been great! But I am anixious to find out if 10% of the riding I will do on Z1 will be more joyful.
    sth

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    You haven't found one?...

    That's because you need to be looking under Z1 SL.
    No doppio for me...too much of a pain in the arse. The Z1 SL is available out there though...and it's light!
    Extreme stationary biker.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    seems like titus has a reputation problem in the austin area.
    er, not really.

    like the man said, he's no longer in Austin (northly now, up near Dallas AFAIK).

    You practically can't swing a dead chain around here on the trails without running into a Titus or derivative bike. Not that there isn't a lot of other stuff here, too many cyclists spending too much money on bikes in this town - and I'm just as bad, I know.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    No doppio for me...too much of a pain in the arse. The Z1 SL is available out there though...and it's light!
    I wonder if it's possible to buy 06 Z1 SL and just swap the ETA/TAS internal from 05/06 All Mtn 1 w/ Doppio and call it a Franken Z1 Light ETA/TAS. Does anyone know if that is possible?

    If it is, install 06 Z1 SL doppio cartridge to 05/06 All mtn 1 and call it a Franken All Mtn SL.
    sth

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