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  1. #1
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Time to Market...is Titus ahead of the Curve?

    Demo and I were having a bit of back and forth on the Carbon Seat Stay thread about the SuMo and how it fits in the Titus quiver. The SuMo is interesting because Titus bills it as a go anywhere do anyhing bike, but when it came out, it was placed in that nebulus catagory of "Black Diamond" rig.

    Well I know how you guys feel about that moniker, but at the time it was used to describe a bike lighter than a full on FR Rig that could be pedaled up a mountain and still handle the likes of a Lift Assisted Resort environment. Today we use the term "Heavy Duty Trail" bike to describe a 6" travel bike that can be pedaled uphill and still absorb the abuse of a rugged downhill run. So what's the difference?

    I personally believe that the SuMo was about a year late to Market and when it did hit, it was quickly over taken by lighter 6" travel frames. The frame was I believe overbuilt and therefore suffered because it fell between catagories. It was FR capable but a little short of travel for huge hucks and wasn't marketed that way. It was a little too heavy for all day climbing and was quickly over taken by the likes of the Nomad, FXR and 6-Pack.

    Now every manufacturer has its marketing lemon. I believe Foes screwed up from a Marketing point of view with the Inferno. To me it is a dead-end design. I mean the difference between the FXR and the Inferno is minimal and the FXR is a better climber. If you want more travel go with a Fly. And next year the 2008 Fly will make the Inferno even more irrelavent.

    So what I'm saying is that the SuMo was a great concept in a well built package that was a little late to the market and got over run by lighter and more capable designs....that's all. The bigger question is what does Titus want to achive with the New SuMo and will it too be behind the curve?

    And what about the El Guapo? I believe it is a response to the market rather than a market leader. I pose this question to the group, has Titus lost it's insight into how the market is evolving and if so, what do they need to re-gain that focus? Where do you think the Trail Bike/FR Market is headed and in what areas do you see the "evolution" being a "revolution"? Will Titus be leading that revolution or will they be part of the evolution?

    Have at it!!!
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  2. #2
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    The SuMo is stupid and I hate it.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  3. #3
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    I have no first-hand knowledge of the designers at titus, other than I know that at least two of them have left (AFAIK this includes Mr. Cocalis) that predate the revision to it's current business arrangement - I'm really JUST a consumer.

    That said, while I kind-a like the El G, the SuMo is the last frameset they have on the market that I would be interested in. As a solid Clydesdale I'll never be more than casually interested in most anything with the syllables that are a homonym to "light" in the name - or "racer" for that matter.

    Also, while I have not taken a very close look at the fabrication quality of the stuff currently not produced in Tempe, and I understand the forces of wanting to be more price competitive, I feel that possibly Titus may be losing a notch on the fabrication quality ... which was one of the two fundamental things that led me to them in '03 to begin with (the other being a suitable frameset with the geometry I wanted ... a Quasi-Moto to be specific).

    I keep wondering that when my Quasi wears out, which has to happen eventually as it's still only made of aluminum, whether I'll be able to get them to dust off their blueprints and do me a titanium version. Here I am, four years later, loving the crap out of my bike, and as far as I know there is nothing directly comparable on the market. Sure sure, there's lots of 6" bikes out there now, but couple that with the robustness I seek w/o the weight I don't seek and the geometry I like and THEN let me know what my options are. I'm sure I'll end up with something completely custom at that point, but if I had to replace my bike right now TODAY - when I really can't afford 3-5k for a frameset - I'd be screwed.

    I do feel that Titus is responding to competition now (reactive) more than making them respond (proactive) and while it's not necessary EVIL it's not necessarily GREAT either. Then again, if they're more profitable now, that is probably a driver for the situation.

  4. #4
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    El Guapo seems like a catch-up... but still on time... if it gets good reviews, it could put Titus back "in focus"... time will tell

    I see trailbikes going at 6"-7" and the weight coming down to high 20s... but with through axle forks and even TA rearends (as in more rear Maxles out there)

    FR bikes will just keep growing in travel and getting lighter... maybe internal gearbox as mainstream

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    FR bikes will just keep growing in travel and getting lighter... maybe internal gearbox as mainstream
    Slopestyle/FR bikes will be the next big thing. Transition is sitting pretty for this next thing. The Bottlerocket is selling like hot-cakes...mmm, cake....

    Anyway, I see less travel with lower bottom brackets on the horizon for FR/DH. There will still be a market/place for "regular" FR bikes, but we're talkin' bout curves here...internal gearbox seems like a stretch to me.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  6. #6
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Slopestyle/FR bikes will be the next big thing. Transition is sitting pretty for this next thing. The Bottlerocket is selling like hot-cakes...mmm, cake....

    Anyway, I see less travel with lower bottom brackets on the horizon for FR/DH. There will still be a market/place for "regular" FR bikes, but we're talkin' bout curves here...internal gearbox seems like a stretch to me.
    the gearbox thing I see as a long run thing...mostly if they manage to make it lighter... but frames like the Nicolai G-Box could play nicely in DH if they get lighter

  7. #7
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Slopestyle/FR bikes will be the next big thing. Transition is sitting pretty for this next thing. The Bottlerocket is selling like hot-cakes...mmm, cake....

    Anyway, I see less travel with lower bottom brackets on the horizon for FR/DH. There will still be a market/place for "regular" FR bikes, but we're talkin' bout curves here...internal gearbox seems like a stretch to me.
    Good point... FR and DH frames seem to have "topped" at 8" travel. There was a time when there was a race to produce the longest travel rigs for descending. There are still the V10 and others.

    So, now the top of the crop is at 8"... is a 7" FR rig really worthy? Or should you stay at six more efficient ones?

    Then if so, what's the purpose of "light" 6" bikes as the "heavy duty" become lighter and stronger??

    IMHO, the Quasi was way ahead it's time and even with a few touches here and there, it could have been a "Nomad killer". Now these duties fall on the El Guapo... which can be considered as a reaction to this segment of bikes or the evolution of the Quasi... but the second theory gets killed by the fact that between the Quasi and the EG there are like three (maybe four) production years.

    Definitievly, nowadays there's not much you can innovate at, so evolution is a safer path to tread on.

    They still have work to do.
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  8. #8
    the 36 year old grom
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    I got my SuMo in 2004. there was no such thing as a Nomad. the enduro was an 5 inch XC bike. the 6 pack had a high leverage ratio ( 2 inch stroke). and the FXR of that era snaps like a twig. The new fly was still a year away

    you want to talk about ahead of the curve. it was the Moment. its as fresh today as it was in then. 6 inch trail bike.

  9. #9
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug

    you want to talk about ahead of the curve. it was the Moment. its as fresh today as it was in then. 6 inch trail bike.

    Yeah I guess so? It sure is pirdy!

    But I think old TE thought he was making a 5" bike, and it turned up 6". Or all he was thinking at the time was it's one more inch than the Spot... ie it goes to 11.

  10. #10
    "Its All Good"
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    This is indeed a huge topic.... One I dont think that Titus is reactive or proactive, just doing there thing, which I admire...

    Take a look at the Turner website and how they define their frame lineup, they dont know where things sit... Read the blurb on the RFX. = RFX Rough XC & All Mountain

    What defines AM, light FR etc. Most believe that the RFX in its element should be above 35 pounds, DT's own RFX is 30 pounds...

    I get lost hugely.... In Sedoan last week, there were loads of SuMo's, and they were carving it up...

    Am lost now, cant ya tell..
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  11. #11
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Titus can do it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Good point... FR and DH frames seem to have "topped" at 8" travel.

    IMHO, the Quasi was way ahead it's time and even with a few touches here and there, it could have been a "Nomad killer".

    Definitievly, nowadays there's not much you can innovate at, so evolution is a safer path to tread on.
    I agree with Warp....the Quasi was "revolutionary". I rode one for many years and then got caught up in the propaganda from Titus about the SuMo being a better Quasi and ditched it. The Quasi was one sweet riding rig. I think the SC Bullit also fits the "revolutionary" bill and then I think of my K2 Proflex Animal in 1998....5" of travel, 30lbs and where are we today?

    Getting back to the point, I believe the development of Platform Technology has made longer travel suspensions much more capable. You now have ground eatting ability matched to climbing stability. This seems to be pushing the fork market to 7-8" in a single crown fork. That will drive the Bike manufacturers to extend their frame designs to match.

    And the frame manufacturers now have technologies like Hydroforming and Composite materials to lighten these types of bikes while still maintaining strength.

    Using the 2008 Fly as an example, if anyone here has taken some time to look at the Sea Otter photos, what caught me is the upright design of it. It really isn't as slack as a full on FR rig would demand to be. So it is being designed to climb and I'm sure will handle some major hucks.

    It will be interesting to see if 8" travel "Trail Bikes" do become a reality. Do we need 8" of travel? Well I guess my take on that is that there was a time when know one really thought you needed more than 4" to ride trails and 8-10" was the realm of DH rigs. But now that we can ride 6" travel bikes I've found that the ride is even smoother. So there may come a day when we all realise how bottomless and smooth an 8" ride can be and also have the stability to pedal the thing up a major climb.

    Now that doesn't mean there won't be a market for HT and 4" travel XC rockets, However, when it comes to "trail riding" its obvious there's a wide range of "trails" and maybe there is a distinct market for 27-28lb 5" rides like the ML and 7-8" 32-34lb rides like the Sumo could be....which means that the 6" market may evolve further to meld with the FR market. DH....well, DH will always be DOWN HILL.

    So will Titus read this and realize they really need to make the new SuMo lighter and longer? If so, they may just get back to leading the market and not following it.

    That's my take and I'm sticking with it....
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  12. #12
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    you want to talk about ahead of the curve. it was the Moment. its as fresh today as it was in then. 6 inch trail bike.
    I'd agree with that....the Moment is an awesome bike...a buddy of mine races his as an XC racer and is fast as h3ll. I told him if he got a real XC sled he'd be even faster and he replied..."not downhill"....
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  13. #13
    thats right living legend
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    In my limited exp and along with almost everything I've ever heard the SuMo is anything but "marketing hyp".

  14. #14
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Well I guess my take on that is that there was a time when know one really thought you needed more than 4" to ride trails and 8-10" was the realm of DH rigs. But now that we can ride 6" travel bikes I've found that the ride is even smoother. So there may come a day when we all realise how bottomless and smooth an 8" ride can be and also have the stability to pedal the thing up a major climb.
    As much as I don't miss MBA, I miss some of RC's Editorials...

    There was one of them that depicted that, actually two maybe were related.... But one was focused to Trail Access and the other to "how much technology is too much".

    But it had good points... At what point we will top what we "need" to ride. I mean, I ride the same trails as I did years ago, but now everything seems easier. So we have to look somewhere else for new trails and new challenges.

    Where are we going to top it??
    When we will have enough?

    Also, I like to see lighter figures, better suspension and what not.
    But it worries me to see that years pass by, frames get lighter, travel is bigger... but are we using the same aluminum alloys??

    Ok, in some frames we have now composites, computer power helps make better modelings and achieve higher strength and lower weights... but welding is welding, fatigue is fatigue and we can push the envelope just to a certain extent.

    We'll get to the point where we (and manufacturers) will have to decide if we want to ride a 7 pounds "pig" that will take the punishment of the intended use or a 5.5 pounds marvel that will do better for a shorter period of time.

    Personally, I think we should get to a "plateau" and trade innovation for (slow) evolution.


    :RANT:
    Don't you get tired to see your brake/fork/shock/(insert component or even frame name here) gets outdated each year but prices go up at the same time???
    :END OF RANT:

    What you guys think?

    On the Sumo... It has an identity crisis now the EG is here. Titus will do good in either make it a DH or FR dedicated rig. It has the capability, let the EG to take over the AM-Light FR duties. Let Titus evolve it, polish it, get it nailed with time. Not that it's not a killer bike now, I'm just saying that they rather get the best out of it with time. Not pressed by year-model stuff.
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  15. #15
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    In my limited exp and along with almost everything I've ever heard the SuMo is anything but "marketing hyp".
    Yeah, it's more like the "Ugly Duckling"... Very underrated bike.
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  16. #16
    "Its All Good"
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    Well at Bike n Bean, their SuMo sits at the front where everyone see's it...Being an ugly duckling is all good... Like a car with bulk power that you cant tell, thats when people do steamy cigars in the undies....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  17. #17
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Well at Bike n Bean, their SuMo sits at the front where everyone see's it...Being an ugly duckling is all good... Like a car with bulk power that you cant tell, thats when people do steamy cigars in the undies....
    Just to clarify, I said Ugly Duckling as a compliment. Hell, the price is right too.
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  18. #18
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp

    But it had good points... At what point we will top what we "need" to ride. I mean, I ride the same trails as I did years ago, but now everything seems easier. So we have to look somewhere else for new trails and new challenges.

    Where are we going to top it??
    When we will have enough?
    that's were the HT SS (Eleven in Titus tongue ) in the quiver comes in... it keeps you humble and reminds that your FS does a lot of work... also polishes up the skills (or lack there of) that the FS takes care of

  19. #19
    the 36 year old grom
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    I saw the 2008 fly up and close... but was so blinded by the blingyness of the clean shinny brushed aluminum, I failed to actually think about what the bike was... other then eye candy. It looked heavy. And the shock was dead ugly.

    I totally disagree with this more travel is better BS. Travel, stiffness and weight are always going to be at odds with each other.

    More travel doesn’t do you anything unless you use it….. or does it???? Actually it does do a lot, because the spring rate is lighter. But most people don’t want to pedal that mushy of a bike. I like it. I trail rode my Sumo sagged out and under sprung. Worked great for me, got me a low BB too.


    If I was to rant on the subject it would be that all the new low BB frames coming out, I can’t over sag them, the BB is already low, so now I have to run 30% sag. or else!!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    And the shock was dead ugly.
    My least favorite part of all time...the Curnutt shock. Sticky-icky poo-poo. Not how it looks, but how it performs. Talk about behind the curve.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  21. #21
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    My least favorite part of all time...the Curnutt shock. Sticky-icky poo-poo. Not how it looks, but how it performs. Talk about behind the curve.
    Uhmmmm....well I'd beg to differ. And not just because I'm a Foes Fan....

    Without the Curnutt shock you wouldn't have platform anything. Of course maybe you are one of the Ludite riders around here who think any shock/fork with platform and compression dampening adjustment is "constipated".....but I'll let the number of said shocks/forks who are using the technology that Curnutt and Foes contributed to the industry speak for itself.

    The comments you make Geo sometimes amaze me....

    Anywho...I'd counter that the development of platform technology has added stability so that pedal bob is a thing of the past and we can actually ride 6" bikes that climb because of it.
    Last edited by Dropin%Dug; 06-23-2007 at 08:45 AM.
    Dug-da-Goat

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Uhmmmm....well I'd beg to differ. And not just because I'm a Foes Fan....

    Without the Curnutt shock you wouldn't have platform anything. Of course maybe you are one of the Ludite riders around here who think any shock/fork with platform and compression dampening adjustment is "constipated".....but I'll let the number of said shocks/forks who are using the technology that Curnutt and Foes contributed to the industry speak for itself.

    The comments you make Geo sometimes amaze me....

    Anywho...I'd counter that the development of platform technology has added stability so that pedal bob is a thing of the past and we can actually ride 6" bikes that climb because of it.
    Yup, I'm a "Ludite"! And damn proud of it. I know the Curnutt technology was a tremendous contribution to biking technology. Many people like it. I don't. I don't really like the way it feels. FWIW, my bike doesn't really have pedal bob issues so I don't feel the platform necessary...and I definitely don't want to give up small bump compliance. Actually, my bike climbs better with no platform (more active rear!)

    Maybe I shouldn't have added the "behind the curve statement"...but you are attacking a bike (SuMo) that I love...a bike I feel people don't really understand. Maybe I was being a little defensive. Maybe I'm just a dyck.

    I still don't like how the Curnutt shock rides.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  23. #23
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Yup, I'm a "Ludite"! And damn proud of it. I know the Curnutt technology was a tremendous contribution to biking technology. Many people like it. I don't. I don't really like the way it feels. FWIW, my bike doesn't really have pedal bob issues so I don't feel the platform necessary...and I definitely don't want to give up small bump compliance. Actually, my bike climbs better with no platform (more active rear!)

    Maybe I shouldn't have added the "behind the curve statement"...but you are attacking a bike (SuMo) that I love...a bike I feel people don't really understand. Maybe I was being a little defensive. Maybe I'm just a dyck.

    I still don't like how the Curnutt shock rides.

    What year is your bike?... I forget.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    What year is your bike?... I forget.
    You forget? After all we've been through? You really know how to make a guy feel loved...

    2006. Copper Ano. One sexy beyotch!
    Extreme stationary biker.

  25. #25
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Yup, I'm a "Ludite"! And damn proud of it. I know the Curnutt technology was a tremendous contribution to biking technology. Many people like it. I don't. I don't really like the way it feels. FWIW, my bike doesn't really have pedal bob issues so I don't feel the platform necessary...and I definitely don't want to give up small bump compliance. Actually, my bike climbs better with no platform (more active rear!)

    Maybe I shouldn't have added the "behind the curve statement"...but you are attacking a bike (SuMo) that I love...a bike I feel people don't really understand. Maybe I was being a little defensive. Maybe I'm just a dyck.

    I still don't like how the Curnutt shock rides.
    I can understand that....you are right that the platform does take away from small bump compliance, but that's part of the price to maintain stability (ie; no bob) during the climb.

    And I will admit that the Curnutt shocks are "stiff" as opposed to "plush". I think they bias more towards a pretty stout platform to work of off. I like it for climbing, but I have even commented on the Foes board that the Curnutt Coil is a bit stiff (ie; harsh) for me. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the Curnutt Air with Krispy and we'll see if it is a bit more plush than the coil. Word out is that it is.

    As to the SuMo....I agree I was a bit harsh in my statements. The SuMo is a great FR/"Black Diamond" bike and that's from someone who has actually owned one. However, I stand by my point that to put a 5" standard axel front fork on it and run light components to get it to 34lbs to me just reflects that it is over built for typical Trail Riding. Not that "over built" is a bad thing if you're a Clyde.
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

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