Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31
  1. #1
    Team Sanchez
    Reputation: El Chingon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    4,368

    Those Pivot guys are a bunch of jokers!

    Trying to compare the Firebird to the El Guapo! LOL!

    Check it out:

    Wanted: Mach 5 big air pics
    Team Sanchez; "Always hittin the upper lip"

  2. #2
    NOT Team Sanchez
    Reputation: wasea04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,971
    I don't trust Carbon...........El C, are you rolling the HL or the 5 Spot these days?
    I like bikes.

  3. #3
    Trophy Husband
    Reputation: geolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    2,997
    Quote Originally Posted by El Chingon
    Trying to compare the Firebird to the El Guapo! LOL!
    The Firebird is the new Racer X.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  4. #4
    Team Sanchez
    Reputation: El Chingon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    4,368
    So far all Highline. I'm hitting Sundance this weekend for some DH. I'll let you know how it goes.
    Team Sanchez; "Always hittin the upper lip"

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    940
    Wasesa....... Why don't you trust carbon? At the same weight as aluminum a carbon bike will be much stronger and stiffer and have a much better fatigue life. Additionally carbon doesn't get stress corrosion cracking like aluminum. Check out Eric Carter riding his Carbon Fiber GT down hill bike.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7mG...e=channel_page

    Sopwithcamel

  6. #6
    Trophy Husband
    Reputation: geolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    2,997
    Quote Originally Posted by sopwithcamel
    Wasesa....... Why don't you trust carbon? At the same weight as aluminum a carbon bike will be much stronger and stiffer and have a much better fatigue life. Additionally carbon doesn't get stress corrosion cracking like aluminum. Check out Eric Carter riding his Carbon Fiber GT down hill bike.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7mG...e=channel_page

    Sopwithcamel
    nevermind
    Extreme stationary biker.

  7. #7
    NOT Team Sanchez
    Reputation: wasea04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,971
    I've seen the vid, and actually had this exact discussion with a pro-carbon shop guy the other day, the problem he said with the Firebird was that carbon is great is long sections and with few stress directions put on it, whereas Pivot put in a place where it experience many different stresses and was too small to take advantage of carbon's qualities. BUT, carbon can not take crashes and retain frame integrity the way aluminum can, the best is steel which heavy though. Carbon has it's place on lighter duty bikes, unless you're a pro and they can replace it for free when you crash it
    I like bikes.

  8. #8
    Team Sanchez
    Reputation: El Chingon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    4,368
    Hey Sopwithcameltoe, carbon fiber always looks great on paper, but the first time you push it hard, this happens.......(See Pivot board for more discussion on the firebird snuffage).
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Team Sanchez; "Always hittin the upper lip"

  9. #9
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,480
    I trust carbon. Derby does, and that's good enough for me.

  10. #10
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,743
    "I don't know why nobody seems to appreciate the smart engineering done on the FB. Using the rocker as a "fuse" that protects the rest of the frame and uses the rear tyre as a cushion to protect furthermore the integrity of the frame is thinking out of the box." - Anonimous

    Next step is going all Random... uh, sorry, I meant, Ransom and make it all carbon. Lycra bibs will be included in the purchase of the 2010 Carbon model.

    Titus will include them this autumn in the purchase of a FTM.

    BTW... On the Fo-Book Titus page, there are hints that they're testing prototype parts for the EG... Me thinks a TA rear for the guys who really ride. Or maybe a carbon rocker to make the lycra crew happy...
    Last edited by Warp; 06-03-2009 at 10:56 AM.
    Check my Site

  11. #11
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,480
    Warp,

    You might want to quote that first paragraph so people know it's not you.

  12. #12
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Warp,

    You might want to quote that first paragraph so people know it's not you.
    Ooops... Thanks, JC!! I forgot the quotes and the sarcasm emoticons...

    Post edited...
    Check my Site

  13. #13
    NOT Team Sanchez
    Reputation: wasea04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,971
    yeah what a bunch of dill weeds when they say that Pivot designed the bike so the rocker would fail first to save the rest of the frame..........how 'bout build it not to flippin' fail at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or admit that the Firebird is not an All Mountain bike, I said it over on the Pivot board and I'll say it here too: the All Mountain category is a ridiculously loose marketing jargon in my opinion..........it's popular so now they're calling everything with more than 4 inches of travel an "All Mountain," bike, oh please! I thought All Mountain was light freeriding's younger brother, not quite a full on freeride bike but still capable of similar riding, and that the compromise made to be all mountain was that you gave up some burl and travel from a FR rig to be a more all arounder AM rig, not the trend of putting more travel on a xc type bike and calling it AM.
    I like bikes.

  14. #14
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,480
    "anonymous"!!!!!

    Classic!!!

  15. #15
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,743
    Quote Originally Posted by wasea04
    yeah what a bunch of dillweeds when they say that Pivot designed the bike so the rocker would fail first to save the rest of the frame..........how 'bout build it not to flippin' fail at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    On a serious note, if they go now aluminum, maybe they'll have to "touch up" a bit on the frame if indeed they plan it to fail at a higher stress or longer fatigue cycles. The rocker sends forces all around the frame that it may be designed for... or not, who knows.
    Check my Site

  16. #16
    NOT Team Sanchez
    Reputation: wasea04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,971

    ?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    On a serious note, if they go now aluminum, maybe they'll have to "touch up" a bit on the frame if indeed they plan it to fail at a higher stress or longer fatigue cycles. The rocker sends forces all around the frame that it may be designed for... or not, who knows.
    Do you think that the engineers built the rocker to flex and absorb the stress? My guess is that the alum rocker would require no alterations..........if they were sharp they'd make them as part of an "All Mountain," kit and keep the carbon one's for a "trailbike," kit and give people the choice..........on second thought they should just make them all alum IMO.
    I like bikes.

  17. #17
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,743
    Quote Originally Posted by wasea04
    Do you think that the engineers built the rocker to flex and absorb the stress? My guess is that the alum rocker would require no alterations..........if they were sharp they'd make them as part of an "All Mountain," kit and keep the carbon one's for a "trailbike," kit and give people the choice..........on second thought they should just make them all alum IMO.
    No, bro... but the bike frame is the sum of all its parts. IF they design a stronger rocker whatever the strength or material of the current one is, it will transmit more forces to the rest of the parts of the frame.

    Is the rest of the frame ready? Most probably. But I'm sure their engineers will make a run or two on Solid Works or whatever FEM analysis if they haven't already.

    Something that I didn't see, though I must confess I did not follow closely the drama, is if the damaged FB had any issues with misalignment, pivots, bearings, etc. Most probably not, but it would not be the first time a rocker is busted due to improper alignment.

    Bah... who knows? Enough armchair engineering and guess work for today...

    BTW... any EG snuff already??? Some EG's should have a couple seasons by now...
    Check my Site

  18. #18
    NOT Team Sanchez
    Reputation: wasea04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,971

    It happened twice...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    No, bro... but the bike frame is the sum of all its parts. IF they design a stronger rocker whatever the strength or material of the current one is, it will transmit more forces to the rest of the parts of the frame.

    Is the rest of the frame ready? Most probably. But I'm sure their engineers will make a run or two on Solid Works or whatever FEM analysis if they haven't already.

    Something that I didn't see, though I must confess I did not follow closely the drama, is if the damaged FB had any issues with misalignment, pivots, bearings, etc. Most probably not, but it would not be the first time a rocker is busted due to improper alignment.

    Bah... who knows? Enough armchair engineering and guess work for today...

    BTW... any EG snuff already??? Some EG's should have a couple seasons by now...

    It wasn't an isolated occurrence, it happened twice within three weeks, as in he had the bike a grand total of three weeks and snapped it twice!
    I like bikes.

  19. #19
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    7,988
    Pivot does not care, because a very tiny fraction of the buyers have the testicular fortitude to clear that kind of gaps. Most bikes are never pushed even close to their limit (including my entire stable).

    Wait until SC releases an all carbon Nomad!
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    940
    Wasea..... If you stay with in the design limits of what the bike was designed for then Carbon Fiber should be okay for any frame. But if you start doing stupid stuff with your bike of course it's going to fail, no matter which material you choose. If a carbon frame is designed properly it can take abrasion and impact damage on the frame. But the frame has to be designed for that from the outset.

    Bicycle Magazine did an interview with Scott Nicol that was really interesting. Have a look.

    "The Origin of Full-Banger Carbon"

    http://bicycling.com/blogs/toolbox/page/2/

    Sopwithcamel

  21. #21
    NOT Team Sanchez
    Reputation: wasea04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,971
    I agree, but what are the design limits for an all mountain bike? I read the article and found it quite impressive.... only one broken frame from a rock strike.........that's a leading question though, not to be negative, but it doesn't give any info on approximately how many total mojos have been broken? BTW, I understand they're like riding a wet noodle
    I like bikes.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    940
    I am looking at the Feburary 2009 issue of MBAction pages 48-49. It's the MBA buyers guide. The article is called "Defining Mountain Bike Types". MBAction breaks it down into six different Bike Types: Cross-Country, Jump, Slalom/4X, Trail Rider, Black Diamond, and Down Hill.

    MBA defines Black Diamond as: "Pushing the envelope of your personal skill level is the black-diamond experience (the name derived from the trail marking used at resorts to signify the most difficult runs, usually intended for experts only). A black diamond bike could be 30-plus pound hard tail with a burly frame and long travel fork, but the most popular form is a heavy, long travel (six to eight inches of travel) rig with some degree of pedaling efficiency. The majority of black-diamond bikes are made from aluminum and chromoly. Wheels roll on 20-millimeter thru-axles, and both wheels usually have massive disc brakes."

    I just changed my mind, if I was ever to do this type of black diamond riding I would want to be on a Aluminum or Chromoly frame too because of the materials 8%-9% elogation properties. You definetly want to see the frame and components bend before they break. Even though I know a carbon frame at this weight would be at least 150%-200% stronger.

    But at 31 pounds the Pivot Fire Bird isn't a Black Diamond Bike. It's a over grown Trail Bike. MBA defines the Maximum Abuse Level for Trail Bikes as: "An aggresive riding style, including jumps with soft transitions and drops (three feet or less) associated with technical cross-country riding. These bikes can travel at higher speeds over rougher, more technical terrain than a cross country bike can handle."

    As for DW bikes maybe a spring horse would be a better discription. (JK)


  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: craigstr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    4,343

    I'm not a big fan of carbon

    Quote Originally Posted by sopwithcamel
    Wasesa....... Why don't you trust carbon? At the same weight as aluminum a carbon bike will be much stronger and stiffer and have a much better fatigue life. Additionally carbon doesn't get stress corrosion cracking like aluminum. Check out Eric Carter riding his Carbon Fiber GT down hill bike.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7mG...e=channel_page

    Sopwithcamel
    probably because two part epoxy has never really performed as promised and I feel that carbon is basically fiberglass minus the glass. It is carbon weaved material bonded with epoxies and resins right? That being said, a carbon mojo or a Firebird could totally handle the terrain in that video, I didnt see EC hucking or doing big drops, I never saw the wheels of that bike more than four feet off the ground. I want metal under me.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    940
    Craigstr...... I can see your a tough customer, so for you, and only you, I will show you a new wonder material that is just starting to become commerically viable. It's called "bucky paper". It's basicly a sheet of cabon nanotubes. Check it out!

    Here is the youtube clip: http://tinyurl.com/qt7cdl

    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Buckypaper

    Sopwithcamel

  25. #25
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,743
    Quote Originally Posted by sopwithcamel
    I just changed my mind, if I was ever to do this type of black diamond riding I would want to be on a Aluminum or Chromoly frame too because of the materials 8%-9% elogation properties. You definetly want to see the frame and components bend before they break. Even though I know a carbon frame at this weight would be at least 150%-200% stronger.
    I would extend this reasoning to any MTB, unless at competition level where you can throw away.

    I don't mind dragging a few grams more up the hill.

    If manufacturers can put out carbon frames with the same weight and even stronger, that would be a selling point for me. But maybe that's because the argument "stronger" means a whole lot to me than lighter... I don't huck, but last thing I want is a bike or component that breaks.

    Usually MTB's are ridden far and away from civilization... you don't want to get stranded. I know everything on a MTB including the ole steel roller chain can break, but it sounds good to me to reduce the chances.
    Check my Site

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •