• 02-10-2013
    yeti575nut
    is there a way to tell if my frame is Ti ???
    I bought a 04 racer x to be rebuilt to its former glory, im nearly done and this is a gift for my wife.

    As I have worked on this bike I keep thinking the material the frame is constructed of seems different than aluminum.

    Im building two bikes , one a yeti 575 and the titus and comparing the two the material just "feels" different so Im wondering if there is a way to tell if it actually is aluminum or titanium?

    Is there a vin number or way to test to tell me, I purchased it thinking its aluminum but from the first time I looked at it I was thinking different.

    Thanks
  • 02-10-2013
    craigstr
    Try a magnet. Should attract to ti as it is a steel.
  • 02-10-2013
    dustyduke22
    um, no...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Try a magnet. Should attract to ti as it is a steel.

    I think your thought process is off. Ti is not a steel and does not share its magnetic properties.

    Look at the size of the welds. Al usually has large welds and Ti has very small beautiful welds! Ti is typically not painted also

    Hope that helps and clears up any confusion
  • 02-10-2013
    craigstr
    Been wrong before, though it was a steel alloy.
  • 02-10-2013
    yeti575nut
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Been wrong before, though it was a steel alloy.

    The bike is not painted, it looks raw but shiny, the welds are awesome, even better than my yeti and more compact in size , they look like small dimes stacked on one another.
  • 02-10-2013
    yeti575nut
    1 Attachment(s)
    Attachment 770340here is a weld picture...
    and as you can see no paint and shiny finish which has never been polished..
  • 02-10-2013
    Smiff
    that'll be alu. ti welds tend to look much smaller and neater.

    also craigstr.. wtf.. typical ti is 6AL4V meaning 90% Ti, 6% Alu, 4% Vanadium i think.
    it's not magnetic.. would make things like replacement hips extremely dodgy in hospital scanners if it were.

    edit: apparently "Ti" can have a very small amount of steel in. no idea how to tell Ti from Alu other than density, which is tricky on a bike frame..
  • 02-10-2013
    dustyduke22
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smiff View Post
    that'll be alu. ti welds tend to look much smaller and neater.

    also craigstr.. wtf.. typical ti is 6AL4V meaning 90% Ti, 6% Alu, 4% Vanadium i think.
    it's not magnetic.. would make things like replacement hips extremely dodgy in hospital scanners if it were.

    edit: apparently "Ti" can have a very small amount of steel in. no idea how to tell Ti from Alu other than density, which is tricky on a bike frame..

    The frame is for sure aluminum. No doubt about that. Ti has a destinct finish and build quality.
  • 02-10-2013
    craigstr
    Yeah, after some research, Ti does have trace amounts of iron which cause some magnetic attraction. Scanners can detect ti, my dad gets dinged everytime he flies due to two knee replacements.
  • 02-10-2013
    Smiff
    so the difference in feel will be down to tube thickness, or coatings (alloy is never bare, it will corrode, even if its just alu oxide, this is why the Raw Guapo is anodized) also alu has many different series, though they're pretty equivalent for bikes afaik. brant would probably know more about this..
  • 02-10-2013
    yeti575nut
    ok thanks guys , glad we could figure it out..
  • 02-10-2013
    Smiff
    it's very nicely welded alu, if that's any consolation, way less likely to fail than ti imho

    ti looks like this

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nium_welds.jpg

    looks neat, but actually Ti is very hard to weld without weakening.

    some alloy frames are smoothed after welding, which is how at a glance they can pass for carbon.
  • 02-10-2013
    yeti575nut
    thanks smiff, it is an awesome frame and the welds are awesome.
    I have welded stuff since I was 14 and im not expert but have welded aluminum but Im not that good, I can make it nice but not this nice...

    Thanks for the photo and I hope your correct and the aluminum holds up.

    take care..
  • 02-10-2013
    Strafer.2
    A very simple test.
    If a hacksaw can't cut it, then it's Ti, congratulations!
    If it saws off, it's Al, and you need a new frame.
  • 02-11-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Yeah, after some research, Ti does have trace amounts of iron which cause some magnetic attraction. Scanners can detect ti, my dad gets dinged everytime he flies due to two knee replacements.

    titanium is a chemical element. it has no iron in it unless someone alloys it with iron. the most common titanium in bikes is 3/2.5 titanium (3% Aluminum, 2.5% Vanadium, and 94.5% Titanium) was designed to be used as tubing. most 6/4 ti in the bike industry is used as dropouts or plates, not tubing. i think lynskey used to make aero downtubes for road bikes out of 6/4 ti sheets that they formed and welded up into shape.

    airport scanners aren't looking for iron, i think they scan for densities beyond bone densities so they can pick up weapons, even guns using polymer frames. i don't think medical titanium uses iron alloyed ti

    Medical Grade Titanium

    Titanium 6AL4V and 6AL4V ELI, alloys made of 6% Aluminum and 4% Vanadium, are the most common types of titanium used in medicine. Because of its harmonizing factor with the human body, these titanium alloys are popularly used in medical procedures, as well as in body piercings. Also known as Gr. 5 and Gr. 23, these are some of the most familiar and readily available types of titanium in the US, with a number of distributors specializing in these specific grades.

    don't know where you researched that ti has trace amounts of iron in it??
  • 02-11-2013
    Smiff
    god this is ridiculous haha, scanners i was talking about are MRI.

    apparently 6Al4V (even medical grade) allows up to 0.25% iron:
    http://www.londonimplantlab.com/docu...B_V3_print.pdf

    (not only place i've seen the .25% figure..)

    don't know if that's from impurities in ti ore or the production, or how much iron you need to make something magnetic!


    back on topic, did Titus ever make a ti racer x?
  • 02-11-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smiff View Post
    god this is ridiculous haha, scanners i was talking about are MRI.

    apparently 6Al4V (even medical grade) allows up to 0.25% iron:
    http://www.londonimplantlab.com/docu...B_V3_print.pdf

    (not only place i've seen the .25% figure..)

    don't know if that's from impurities in ti ore or the production, or how much iron you need to make something magnetic!
    back on topic, did Titus ever make a ti racer x?

    damn, you ned a powerful magnet to pick up .25%. i know some cheaper offshore 304 stainless tubes are very slightly magnetic sometimes. when you weld them up yopu can see some of the impurities bubble to the surface.

    but for sure the frame in question is aluminum as others have pointed out. big weld beads are a dead give away

    i guess the aluminum frame would be as magnetic as the ti one as 7005 alloy can have up to .4% iron


    Chemical composition

    The alloy composition of 7005 is:
    Aluminium 91.0% - 94.7%
    Chromium 0.06% - 0.20%
    Copper <=0.10 %
    Iron <=0.40 %
    Magnesium 1.0% - 1.80%
    Manganese 0.20% - 0.70%
    Silicon <=0.35%
    Titanium 0.010% - 0.060%
    Zinc 4.0% - 5.0%
    Zirconium 0.080% - 0.20%
    Other, total <= 0.15%

    and 6061 up to .7%

    Chemical composition
    The alloy composition of 6061 is:
    Silicon minimum 0.4%, maximum 0.8% by weight
    Iron no minimum, maximum 0.7%
    Copper minimum 0.15%, maximum 0.40%
    Manganese no minimum, maximum 0.15%
    Magnesium minimum 0.8%, maximum 1.2%
    Chromium minimum 0.04%, maximum 0.35%
    Zinc no minimum, maximum 0.25%
    Titanium no minimum, maximum 0.15%
    Other elements no more than 0.05% each, 0.15% total
    Remainder Aluminium (95.85%98.56%)

    so i think actually neither would be magnetic. i've never had a magnet stick to an aluminum tube. wonder what percentage you'd need for a magnet to start to grab
    [edit]
  • 02-11-2013
    Smiff
    i dunno but i have a shimano middle ring (slx 36t) that weakly magnetic. more than an alloy ring, and less than a steel. any ideas what it is? :)
  • 02-11-2013
    anvil_den
    Ti and Alu aren't attracted in the typical sense to a magnet, i.e. they aren't ferromagnetic. Paramagnetic, yes but that's a different thing altogether-- doubt most people ever apply an external current to their bike's tubings.
  • 02-11-2013
    Deerhill
    Ti is incredibly luxurious in the sun, finish in it is hard to mistake with paint once you get it outside.. unfinished welds look really cool too
  • 02-11-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smiff View Post
    i dunno but i have a shimano middle ring (slx 36t) that weakly magnetic. more than an alloy ring, and less than a steel. any ideas what it is? :)

    at one point they were a steel/composite ring. i thought it was on the 32 tooth but i'm pretty sure they aren't just aluminum
  • 02-11-2013
    dustyduke22
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    at one point they were a steel/composite ring. i thought it was on the 32 tooth but i'm pretty sure they aren't just aluminum

    Ya, straight Aluminum would get shredded pretty fast.
  • 02-11-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    Ya, straight Aluminum would get shredded pretty fast.

    i dont know about that. race face, chromag, blackspire, renthal all use 7005 t6 aluminum for their rings with no real issues. renthal hard annodizes their rings as well, but 7005 t6 alloy is pretty hard and light
  • 02-11-2013
    dustyduke22
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    i dont know about that. race face, chromag, blackspire, renthal all use 7005 t6 aluminum for their rings with no real issues. renthal hard annodizes their rings as well, but 7005 t6 alloy is pretty hard and light

    Absolutely. All aluminum is not created equal.