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  1. #1
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    Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?

    Hey guys, I just received my EG, and checking it out [ Ihave the tapered headtube] the depth of the upper counterbore for the headset cup is 5 millimeters deep. My cane creek headset is at least 8 millimeters deep, and forget about how deep the angleset is I bought; it's much longer than that. Is 5mm normal? Did I miss the memo about special headset cups for the EG? The diameters are fine, it's the insertion depths that are amiss.
    FWIW, the lower headset counterbore is bore way overkill in depth, so no issues there.
    Thanks in advance.
    ****

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Hey guys, I just received my EG, and checking it out [ Ihave the tapered headtube] the depth of the upper counterbore for the headset cup is 5 millimeters deep. My cane creek headset is at least 8 millimeters deep, and forget about how deep the angleset is I bought; it's much longer than that. Is 5mm normal? Did I miss the memo about special headset cups for the EG? The diameters are fine, it's the insertion depths that are amiss.
    FWIW, the lower headset counterbore is bore way overkill in depth, so no issues there.
    Thanks in advance.
    Yup, you need to get the top reamed deeper for the Cane Creek headsets. Our On-One Smoothie Mixer fits, but most other HSs are deeper.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Yup, you need to get the top reamed deeper for the Cane Creek headsets. Our On-One Smoothie Mixer fits, but most other HSs are deeper.
    Dang.

    Can one just saw off few mm from the Cane Creek upper cup instead? Should not be critical to weight bearing..

    Or maybe that's an argument to order the slackset..

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Yup, you need to get the top reamed deeper for the Cane Creek headsets. Our On-One Smoothie Mixer fits, but most other HSs are deeper.
    Well that absolutely sucks. That is not, IMO, exactly great planning for being able to use more than one manufacturer's product. So much for the $190.00 I spent on the angleset from CC.
    Shiggy, are there anymore unexpected, unpleasureable surprises you could tell me about regarding my new frameset before I find them out on my own?
    ****

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Well that absolutely sucks. That is not, IMO, exactly great planning for being able to use more than one manufacturer's product. So much for the $190.00 I spent on the angleset from CC.
    Shiggy, are there anymore unexpected, unpleasureable surprises you could tell me about regarding my new frameset before I find them out on my own?
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes and the angleset fits fine.

    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.

    No other issues.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.
    FSA Orbit Option T? Upper cup looks shallow there.

    Would have been nice to have it done before shipping, but hard to complain at the current deal.

    Read up on the issue of cable routing that got one person looking for another frame, but frankly, difficult to care much about a cable outside of the shock mounts..

  7. #7
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    Cable routing isnt an issue

    Its a non issue. I too went through the problems with the upper cup but I ended up using the CC 40 lower cup and the smoothie upper. Do you really need a slacker HA? With a 10mm lower cup and a 160mm fork you are looking at about a 67 HA not 68 like the original Titus specs show.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-p1020709.jpg  

    Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-p1020725.jpg  

    Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-p1020728.jpg  


  8. #8
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    With a 10mm lower cup and a 160mm fork you are looking at about a 67 HA not 68 like the original Titus specs show.
    Hm..

    I really liked 65.7 on my Coiler. But I have no idea how Guapo will feel. I am pretty sure that I would not complain, as it will be built and used somewhat lighter then Coiler was (I was not using it to its potential, part of the reason I am moving on. Other part is that I like new toys.).

    I am thinking of FSA Orbit - and try all three settings it comes with. It is a ZS lower I guess.

    Yeah, I usually do not get a flying eff about where my cables go as long as I do not snag on them and they do not ghost shift..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Do you really need a slacker HA? With a 10mm lower cup and a 160mm fork you are looking at about a 67 HA not 68 like the original Titus specs show.
    Some people prefer a slacker bike. 67 would not be slack enough for me. I'd need a slackset.

    That being said, 15 bucks for a head tube ream seems like a simple (and cheap) solution.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes and the angleset fits fine.

    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.

    No other issues.
    I'm just a little leary of handing over my brand new frame to some stranger who could possibly botch the job.
    Craigstr, I know you weren't addressing me. but I'm looking to lower the bike by dropping my lyrik to 150mm, then slacken it with the angleset. I don't want to slacken it by raising it with the outboard lower headset cup.
    ****

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I'm just a little leary of handing over my brand new frame to some stranger who could possibly botch the job.
    Facing and reaming are one of the very few things I can not do myself, and only good shops that do not annoy me and do not overcharge for simple things are a bit of a drive. Nearby ones are all busy changing tires on expensive road bikes, charge $50 to run a chasing tool in bottom bracket for 30 seconds, or insist on leaving frame for several days for no apparent reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Craigstr, I know you weren't addressing me. but I'm looking to lower the bike by dropping my lyrik to 150mm, then slacken it with the angleset. I don't want to slacken it by raising it with the outboard lower headset cup.
    I am rather set to try this new FSA Option T. Comes with 0.5, 1.0 and 1.5 cups and 3.5mm lower stack. Seems lighter and simpler then angleset - at the price of non standard bearings. But bearings usually last for me.

  12. #12
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    It surprises me that people want to lower the BB on the Guapo. I run 170mm cranks with a Float 36 and I am smacking things all the time but I do live in an area where there are a lot of things to hit. I am building up an EG for a friend with a 150mm Revelation, the guy wants more of a trail bike then an AM build, it should be interesting how that works for him around here. As far as reaming the headset, it doesnt bother me to have to do that, Titus made a mistake and they admitted it, it happens, they were in a rush to get final specs to the builder to get something to market. The problem I had is I checked every shop in the Reno-Tahoe area (over 16 shops) and nobody had the correct size cutting bit. The bit costs close to $160 so I understand why they didnt want to purchase one to do my $15 ream job.

  13. #13
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    Craigstr, what's your stock HA w/ the 12mm stack on the CC EC40 and same height tires front and back?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    It surprises me that people want to lower the BB on the Guapo.
    I do not want to lower the BB, but given a choice I do prefer a slacker head angle. As people ride 150mm forks on Guapo (15mm less a2c), I figure it should be tolerable. If not, I am out of a headset..

    Maybe, in the future I will get a 170mm fork; my Wotan, that I will reuse, is getting old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I do not want to lower the BB, but given a choice I do prefer a slacker head angle. As people ride 150mm forks on Guapo (15mm less a2c), I figure it should be tolerable. If not, I am out of a headset..

    Maybe, in the future I will get a 170mm fork; my Wotan, that I will reuse, is getting old.
    The 2010 had 13.5" BB w. the 68º and large-ish 2.35 Muddy Marys

    I climb a lot of **** on this setup and agree w/ Craigstr, 67º is about perfect

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG View Post
    The 2010 had 13.5" BB w. the 68º and large-ish 2.35 Muddy Marys
    What fork and lower stack? Website lists 13.8, why?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What fork and lower stack? Website lists 13.8, why?
    The external CC w/ taper van rc2. . not sure why, if you're not gonna be hitting rocks, there's a huge boost in performance w/ smaller sized tires that's for sure

    If I put a 2.35 DHF out back, there's about a 1/2" difference in tire height w/ the Muddy Mary in front.
    Last edited by J:; 03-15-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    As far as reaming the headset, it doesnt bother me to have to do that, Titus made a mistake and they admitted it, it happens, they were in a rush to get final specs to the builder to get something to market. The problem I had is I checked every shop in the Reno-Tahoe area (over 16 shops) and nobody had the correct size cutting bit. The bit costs close to $160 so I understand why they didnt want to purchase one to do my $15 ream job.

    It may not have bothered you, for various reasons, but you've summed up the frustrating part of this many of us were/are faced with well: very few bike shops have the relatively new sized cutter head to perform the ream job, and some of us who missed the memo that never went out had already invested in good headsets that never had chance of fitting the frame right out of the box.

    With all due respect, you and Shiggy keep responding to this by shrugging it off like it's no big deal. Yes, in the larger scheme of things, it is no big deal, if you go and buy the tool or plan on using the same single headset that fits. But if it's no big deal to Titus, then instead of sending the frames out to us like this and waiting until the s**t hit the fan before admitting their mistake, wouldn't it have been a wiser business decision to simply invest in $500 worth of tooling themselves and perform the $15 ream job there in Portland? Had they done so, their mistake would have been followed up by them doing the right thing, and more people would be proudly riding a Titus right now.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betarad View Post
    But if it's no big deal to Titus, then instead of sending the frames out to us like this and waiting until the s**t hit the fan before admitting their mistake, wouldn't it have been a wiser business decision to simply invest in $500 worth of tooling themselves and perform the $15 ream job there in Portland?
    Yes, that's what they should have done. Should not have taken them too long. I will cut them some slack for now - in general Planet X has a very decent reputation, and some corner cutting comes with the territory. Saving up to a thousand from a comparable frame is worth some hiccups (for me, but then this would be my sixth bike, fourth in line to ride on any given day).

    From my recently purchased frames, TransAm had some unbelievable amount of gunk from corrosion treatment in bottom bracket, and its paint chips and ISCG tabs are a bit off. Motobecane Fly Ti required BB facing to fit e.13 crankset (expensive job, as nobody wants to use their tool on titanium.) Kona had to be chased. Rotwild was absolutely perfect. Damn Germans.

  20. #20
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    66.2

    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG View Post
    Craigstr, what's your stock HA w/ the 12mm stack on the CC EC40 and same height tires front and back?
    As it sits with a 2.2 MK2 and 2.4 MK2 measured with an Android App. I asked Brant to run the numbers with his cad program with the Float 36 and CC EC40 and he came up with 66.7. Interesting enough the BB height is 13.25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes and the angleset fits fine.

    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.

    No other issues.
    So if I had the Slackset installed at Titus, the headtube is now reamed correcly for all headsets?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Interesting enough the BB height is 13.25.
    Huh? That's kinda really low.. I was expecting something around my Coiler numbers, closer to 13.7... Hm.. The joy of relying on da interwebz numbers..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Huh? That's kinda really low.. I was expecting something around my Coiler numbers, closer to 13.7... Hm.. The joy of relying on da interwebz numbers..
    We would have to know the volume and tread height for the 2.2 MK2 and 2.4 MK2. Honestly I was expecting it to be a hair lower with the new HT, BB sounds the same to me just looking at those tires. Would really like to ride that thing!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    As it sits with a 2.2 MK2 and 2.4 MK2 measured with an Android App. I asked Brant to run the numbers with his cad program with the Float 36 and CC EC40 and he came up with 66.7. Interesting enough the BB height is 13.25.
    When you gonna ride it?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    So if I had the Slackset installed at Titus, the headtube is now reamed correcly for all headsets?
    Yes.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Yes.
    Shop just quoted me $80 for this. Bay, effing, Area. It would have been nice if I just paid you a little extra so you have done that before shipping, since you apparently have the tools.

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    Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG View Post
    When you gonna ride it?
    I hope

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes......
    Shiggy, you got a p.m. coming; here is an excerpt from it, and IMO, something that needs to be addressed to every customer out there.

    " I'm still a little bothered by something though. If you guys knew there were shallow reamed headtubes, you:

    1] Didn't check your stock post discovery, and correct the oversights.
    2] Sent them out in that condition.
    3] Didn't even bother to tell me/other customers about it; left me to discover it myself.
    4] Expect me to pay for the manufacturing oversight."

    Yea, so it may be 15 dollars, or whatever. It was 20 phone calls to all the local Boulder Colorado shops, which none had the proper tools. Yes, your lead to Redstone bikes hit paydirt, with a week lead time, and money out of my pocket to fix something that I did not screw up.

    The rst is in the p.m.
    ****

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    It surprises me that people want to lower the BB on the Guapo. I run 170mm cranks with a Float 36 and I am smacking things all the time but I do live in an area where there are a lot of things to hit. .
    Craig, different strokes for different folks. I ride in the colorado front range, where it's chunky, but nothing like arizona chunk, or anyone else's chunk. I spent the last two years on a banshee spitfire, with a 13 inch bottom bracket, with flat pedals, and I really didn't have many pedal strikes, because:
    I learned to time my pedaling amidst the chunk, because:
    I love the cornering that a low BB provides. I had dh bike performance in a 5 inch travel package. It was awesome. I just couldn't deal with the maintenance any longer.
    I've spent years on high BB bikes; it's not where I am right now.
    Getting back to different strokes for different folks, I find it kind of funny when people say that "this or that bike" should be this high, for this intent, and that anything else just seems wrong to them. Aren't you the guy who built a 28 pound EG, that you use in races? Should I find that strange and wrong? I don't; it's just what you wanted to do with the frame. So I, and others, who are waiting for the next generation 67 degree or slacker, sub 1.5 BB, are just doing what we want to do with the item we purchased with our money.
    It's all good, it's all individual, and there's no right or wrong.
    ****

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    Didn't say it was right or wrong, just said I was surprised by it. That's it, end of story.

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    I'm suprised one would do a custom build and not plan to ream and face the head tube as well as chase and face the bottom bracket. It never crossed my mind to forego checking these independent of the manufacturer. These aren't handbuilt customs, they're mass produced in Taiwan.

    Titus owes me nothing. For half the cost of a Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Ventana.., they brought to market a solid winner. All one has to do is ride an El Guapo to understand it is the top value in it's class, cable routing and all.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-elperfecto.jpg  


  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I'm suprised one would do a custom build and not plan to ream and face the head tube as well as chase and face the bottom bracket.
    I have never had to ream a head tube. Two good local shops I have contacted never had to do that either. The facts mentioned here that many shops do not even carry tools for 44mm is another indication.

    Frankly, I have always bought frames and parts on good deals, as I prefer to have multiple bikes on the same budget, and my research indicated that Guapo is the best deal and performs great, unfortunately did not find one to rent, but now I am having a bit of buyer remorse (and I will only receive my frame tomorrow, and their headset that I did not want to use later. I do not want to use parts I did not choose, even a headset, and driving to pay $80 to fix an obvious defect is a bit annoying.). Maybe I should just return that an keep riding Coiler for another three years - but just noticed that Planet X/Titus charges 15% restocking fee on returns.
    Last edited by Axe; 03-16-2012 at 12:00 AM.

  33. #33
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    Well the 44mm standard is fairly new and with the economy the way it is, it doesnt surprise me that shops are hesitant to buy tools they may never need. Nothing wrong with the Mixer headset, I'd say return your other headset (that probably cost twice as much) a buy something nice for your wife or girlfriend. If you return the Guapo, it will be your loss.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Nothing wrong with the Mixer headset, I'd say return your other headset (that probably cost twice as much) a buy something nice for your wife or girlfriend. If you return the Guapo, it will be your loss.
    It is 75g heavier with no added functionality. And I can not use an adjustable angle headset unless I pay 8% of the frame price (plus two hours of my time) to fix a manufacturing defect. I do not build my bikes that way, think whatever you want about that..

    Yes, it will be my loss, as they charge 15% restocking. Even bikesdirect does not do that. And shipping.

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    I'm not trying to stand up for Titus, I'm just trying to come up with a viable alternative for you. Like some have mentioned, even if you spend $80 your still way better off then if you had bought a Santa Cruz or Mojo. Once you ride the Guapo, you will forget about that $80 pretty quickly.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    I'm not trying to stand up for Titus, I'm just trying to come up with a viable alternative for you. Like some have mentioned, even if you spend $80 your still way better off then if you had bought a Santa Cruz or Mojo. Once you ride the Guapo, you will forget about that $80 pretty quickly.
    My alternative is to order Nicolai Helius AM, custom colors ( ), adjustable travel, 12mm rear, slightly taller and slacker. Twice more money.

    Yes, I would certainly keep Guapo over SC or Mojo. It is, in fact, the best deal for an AM bike out there, any minor hiccups nonwithstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is 75g heavier with no added functionality. And I can not use an adjustable angle headset unless I pay 8% of the frame price (plus two hours of my time) to fix a manufacturing defect. I do not build my bikes that way, think whatever you want about that..

    Yes, it will be my loss, as they charge 15% restocking. Even bikesdirect does not do that. And shipping.
    Send the frame back. We will ream the head tube and install your headset (if you send it at the same time) and return it to you. We will cover shipping both ways.

    The return policy was a bit confusing. We normally do not charge restock fee. It is being clarified.
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  38. #38
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    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
    That's Mo' Better!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
    And with that announcement, this has officially become a non-issue going forward. Good to see.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betarad View Post
    And with that announcement, this has officially become a non-issue going forward. Good to see.
    On one, Brant, and folks - they seem to have a good history so far of attention to details, great value, and clever engineering. I am sure they will do very well with the Titus brand line going forward, once they settle in.

    ...So I am still tempted to return frame, as long as I am making a trip to the post office anyway (just as an excuse to spend more money on something that is not really better) - though I am sure to keep 456c I have ordered simultaneously.

    P.S. To be honest, the only serious doubt about Guapo that I have is the lack of a frame bottle mount. I know it sounds silly, but I hate camelbacks - or carrying bottles in backpack and did not have a good experience with seatpost and stem mounted bottle. Same issue with Mojo (and I liked FSR style suspension better anyway).

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I'm suprised one would do a custom build and not plan to ream and face the head tube as well as chase and face the bottom bracket. It never crossed my mind to forego checking these independent of the manufacturer. These aren't handbuilt customs, they're mass produced in Taiwan.

    Titus owes me nothing. For half the cost of a Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Ventana.., they brought to market a solid winner. All one has to do is ride an El Guapo to understand it is the top value in it's class, cable routing and all.
    looking @ your bike, it appears the BB is less than 13". do you know what it is? would you mind posting it & the A-C of your fork? thanks
    breezy shade

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
    That's good to hear for everyone going forward. It stops me from posting the five paragraph long rant on bussiness ethics that I've been writing this morning.
    Since you were offering to pay shipping both ways to correct the ream, how would you feel about re-imbursing me the $20 I just paid Walt to ream my 44mm bore? It's quite a bit cheaper than the $45 you would have spent shipping my frame.
    Yes, seriously.
    ****

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


  45. #45
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    I can post that bussiness ethics anytime; I saved it. Sounds like Craigstr wants to hear it.
    ****

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    No

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I can post that bussiness ethics anytime; I saved it. Sounds like Craigstr wants to hear it.
    I was thinking more along the lines of asking to be reimbursed for $20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of asking to be reimbursed for $20.
    Okay, and why not? There is already an established history that shows Titus received a bunch of frames with the shallow bore, and an established history the titus has pushed back against customers, like me, raising a fuss about it. Shiggy has now declared they will ream all the headtubes. So for one, WTF didn't that happen earlier? And WTF should I have to pay for, what could have been an easy fix on titus' end to take care of the problem instead of dumping on the customer?
    This is not about the money. It's about the bussiness ethics. And I will take this a lot farther than you, Shiggy, titus/planet x/on-one will care for.
    Carefull Shiggy not to abuse your moderator powers to cover your bussiness ethics/blunders concerning my posts. I've copied the other supermods concerning this.You and I are going to talk next week.
    ****

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I've copied the other supermods concerning this.You and I are going to talk next week.
    Dude, come on. I was building up frames from many different companies - this is by far not that much of a big deal. (Though indeed mildly annoying). On One are cool.

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    ..........
    breezy shade

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Dude, come on. I was building up frames from many different companies - this is by far not that much of a big deal. (Though indeed mildly annoying). On One are cool.
    Axe, you are not the only other one besides me who had this issue. And while midly annoying as an issue, it's the fight over what was such a trivial thing that titus could have taken care of, but didn't, and dumped on us, the customers, that makes it more of a trivial thing.
    Craigstr, I don't have a beef with you. I ask you to back out of this.
    ****

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