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  1. #1
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    Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?

    Hey guys, I just received my EG, and checking it out [ Ihave the tapered headtube] the depth of the upper counterbore for the headset cup is 5 millimeters deep. My cane creek headset is at least 8 millimeters deep, and forget about how deep the angleset is I bought; it's much longer than that. Is 5mm normal? Did I miss the memo about special headset cups for the EG? The diameters are fine, it's the insertion depths that are amiss.
    FWIW, the lower headset counterbore is bore way overkill in depth, so no issues there.
    Thanks in advance.
    ****

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Hey guys, I just received my EG, and checking it out [ Ihave the tapered headtube] the depth of the upper counterbore for the headset cup is 5 millimeters deep. My cane creek headset is at least 8 millimeters deep, and forget about how deep the angleset is I bought; it's much longer than that. Is 5mm normal? Did I miss the memo about special headset cups for the EG? The diameters are fine, it's the insertion depths that are amiss.
    FWIW, the lower headset counterbore is bore way overkill in depth, so no issues there.
    Thanks in advance.
    Yup, you need to get the top reamed deeper for the Cane Creek headsets. Our On-One Smoothie Mixer fits, but most other HSs are deeper.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Yup, you need to get the top reamed deeper for the Cane Creek headsets. Our On-One Smoothie Mixer fits, but most other HSs are deeper.
    Dang.

    Can one just saw off few mm from the Cane Creek upper cup instead? Should not be critical to weight bearing..

    Or maybe that's an argument to order the slackset..

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Yup, you need to get the top reamed deeper for the Cane Creek headsets. Our On-One Smoothie Mixer fits, but most other HSs are deeper.
    Well that absolutely sucks. That is not, IMO, exactly great planning for being able to use more than one manufacturer's product. So much for the $190.00 I spent on the angleset from CC.
    Shiggy, are there anymore unexpected, unpleasureable surprises you could tell me about regarding my new frameset before I find them out on my own?
    ****

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Well that absolutely sucks. That is not, IMO, exactly great planning for being able to use more than one manufacturer's product. So much for the $190.00 I spent on the angleset from CC.
    Shiggy, are there anymore unexpected, unpleasureable surprises you could tell me about regarding my new frameset before I find them out on my own?
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes and the angleset fits fine.

    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.

    No other issues.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.
    FSA Orbit Option T? Upper cup looks shallow there.

    Would have been nice to have it done before shipping, but hard to complain at the current deal.

    Read up on the issue of cable routing that got one person looking for another frame, but frankly, difficult to care much about a cable outside of the shock mounts..

  7. #7
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    Cable routing isnt an issue

    Its a non issue. I too went through the problems with the upper cup but I ended up using the CC 40 lower cup and the smoothie upper. Do you really need a slacker HA? With a 10mm lower cup and a 160mm fork you are looking at about a 67 HA not 68 like the original Titus specs show.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-p1020709.jpg  

    Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-p1020725.jpg  

    Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-p1020728.jpg  


  8. #8
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    With a 10mm lower cup and a 160mm fork you are looking at about a 67 HA not 68 like the original Titus specs show.
    Hm..

    I really liked 65.7 on my Coiler. But I have no idea how Guapo will feel. I am pretty sure that I would not complain, as it will be built and used somewhat lighter then Coiler was (I was not using it to its potential, part of the reason I am moving on. Other part is that I like new toys.).

    I am thinking of FSA Orbit - and try all three settings it comes with. It is a ZS lower I guess.

    Yeah, I usually do not get a flying eff about where my cables go as long as I do not snag on them and they do not ghost shift..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Do you really need a slacker HA? With a 10mm lower cup and a 160mm fork you are looking at about a 67 HA not 68 like the original Titus specs show.
    Some people prefer a slacker bike. 67 would not be slack enough for me. I'd need a slackset.

    That being said, 15 bucks for a head tube ream seems like a simple (and cheap) solution.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes and the angleset fits fine.

    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.

    No other issues.
    I'm just a little leary of handing over my brand new frame to some stranger who could possibly botch the job.
    Craigstr, I know you weren't addressing me. but I'm looking to lower the bike by dropping my lyrik to 150mm, then slacken it with the angleset. I don't want to slacken it by raising it with the outboard lower headset cup.
    ****

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I'm just a little leary of handing over my brand new frame to some stranger who could possibly botch the job.
    Facing and reaming are one of the very few things I can not do myself, and only good shops that do not annoy me and do not overcharge for simple things are a bit of a drive. Nearby ones are all busy changing tires on expensive road bikes, charge $50 to run a chasing tool in bottom bracket for 30 seconds, or insist on leaving frame for several days for no apparent reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Craigstr, I know you weren't addressing me. but I'm looking to lower the bike by dropping my lyrik to 150mm, then slacken it with the angleset. I don't want to slacken it by raising it with the outboard lower headset cup.
    I am rather set to try this new FSA Option T. Comes with 0.5, 1.0 and 1.5 cups and 3.5mm lower stack. Seems lighter and simpler then angleset - at the price of non standard bearings. But bearings usually last for me.

  12. #12
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    It surprises me that people want to lower the BB on the Guapo. I run 170mm cranks with a Float 36 and I am smacking things all the time but I do live in an area where there are a lot of things to hit. I am building up an EG for a friend with a 150mm Revelation, the guy wants more of a trail bike then an AM build, it should be interesting how that works for him around here. As far as reaming the headset, it doesnt bother me to have to do that, Titus made a mistake and they admitted it, it happens, they were in a rush to get final specs to the builder to get something to market. The problem I had is I checked every shop in the Reno-Tahoe area (over 16 shops) and nobody had the correct size cutting bit. The bit costs close to $160 so I understand why they didnt want to purchase one to do my $15 ream job.

  13. #13
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    Craigstr, what's your stock HA w/ the 12mm stack on the CC EC40 and same height tires front and back?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    It surprises me that people want to lower the BB on the Guapo.
    I do not want to lower the BB, but given a choice I do prefer a slacker head angle. As people ride 150mm forks on Guapo (15mm less a2c), I figure it should be tolerable. If not, I am out of a headset..

    Maybe, in the future I will get a 170mm fork; my Wotan, that I will reuse, is getting old.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I do not want to lower the BB, but given a choice I do prefer a slacker head angle. As people ride 150mm forks on Guapo (15mm less a2c), I figure it should be tolerable. If not, I am out of a headset..

    Maybe, in the future I will get a 170mm fork; my Wotan, that I will reuse, is getting old.
    The 2010 had 13.5" BB w. the 68 and large-ish 2.35 Muddy Marys

    I climb a lot of **** on this setup and agree w/ Craigstr, 67 is about perfect

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG View Post
    The 2010 had 13.5" BB w. the 68 and large-ish 2.35 Muddy Marys
    What fork and lower stack? Website lists 13.8, why?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What fork and lower stack? Website lists 13.8, why?
    The external CC w/ taper van rc2. . not sure why, if you're not gonna be hitting rocks, there's a huge boost in performance w/ smaller sized tires that's for sure

    If I put a 2.35 DHF out back, there's about a 1/2" difference in tire height w/ the Muddy Mary in front.
    Last edited by J:; 03-15-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    As far as reaming the headset, it doesnt bother me to have to do that, Titus made a mistake and they admitted it, it happens, they were in a rush to get final specs to the builder to get something to market. The problem I had is I checked every shop in the Reno-Tahoe area (over 16 shops) and nobody had the correct size cutting bit. The bit costs close to $160 so I understand why they didnt want to purchase one to do my $15 ream job.

    It may not have bothered you, for various reasons, but you've summed up the frustrating part of this many of us were/are faced with well: very few bike shops have the relatively new sized cutter head to perform the ream job, and some of us who missed the memo that never went out had already invested in good headsets that never had chance of fitting the frame right out of the box.

    With all due respect, you and Shiggy keep responding to this by shrugging it off like it's no big deal. Yes, in the larger scheme of things, it is no big deal, if you go and buy the tool or plan on using the same single headset that fits. But if it's no big deal to Titus, then instead of sending the frames out to us like this and waiting until the s**t hit the fan before admitting their mistake, wouldn't it have been a wiser business decision to simply invest in $500 worth of tooling themselves and perform the $15 ream job there in Portland? Had they done so, their mistake would have been followed up by them doing the right thing, and more people would be proudly riding a Titus right now.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betarad View Post
    But if it's no big deal to Titus, then instead of sending the frames out to us like this and waiting until the s**t hit the fan before admitting their mistake, wouldn't it have been a wiser business decision to simply invest in $500 worth of tooling themselves and perform the $15 ream job there in Portland?
    Yes, that's what they should have done. Should not have taken them too long. I will cut them some slack for now - in general Planet X has a very decent reputation, and some corner cutting comes with the territory. Saving up to a thousand from a comparable frame is worth some hiccups (for me, but then this would be my sixth bike, fourth in line to ride on any given day).

    From my recently purchased frames, TransAm had some unbelievable amount of gunk from corrosion treatment in bottom bracket, and its paint chips and ISCG tabs are a bit off. Motobecane Fly Ti required BB facing to fit e.13 crankset (expensive job, as nobody wants to use their tool on titanium.) Kona had to be chased. Rotwild was absolutely perfect. Damn Germans.

  20. #20
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    66.2

    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG View Post
    Craigstr, what's your stock HA w/ the 12mm stack on the CC EC40 and same height tires front and back?
    As it sits with a 2.2 MK2 and 2.4 MK2 measured with an Android App. I asked Brant to run the numbers with his cad program with the Float 36 and CC EC40 and he came up with 66.7. Interesting enough the BB height is 13.25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes and the angleset fits fine.

    Needs to be reamed for the Slackset, too.

    No other issues.
    So if I had the Slackset installed at Titus, the headtube is now reamed correcly for all headsets?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Interesting enough the BB height is 13.25.
    Huh? That's kinda really low.. I was expecting something around my Coiler numbers, closer to 13.7... Hm.. The joy of relying on da interwebz numbers..

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Huh? That's kinda really low.. I was expecting something around my Coiler numbers, closer to 13.7... Hm.. The joy of relying on da interwebz numbers..
    We would have to know the volume and tread height for the 2.2 MK2 and 2.4 MK2. Honestly I was expecting it to be a hair lower with the new HT, BB sounds the same to me just looking at those tires. Would really like to ride that thing!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    As it sits with a 2.2 MK2 and 2.4 MK2 measured with an Android App. I asked Brant to run the numbers with his cad program with the Float 36 and CC EC40 and he came up with 66.7. Interesting enough the BB height is 13.25.
    When you gonna ride it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    So if I had the Slackset installed at Titus, the headtube is now reamed correcly for all headsets?
    Yes.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Yes.
    Shop just quoted me $80 for this. Bay, effing, Area. It would have been nice if I just paid you a little extra so you have done that before shipping, since you apparently have the tools.

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    Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG View Post
    When you gonna ride it?
    I hope

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    There was a miscue at the factory. Your LBS can ream the HT in just a few minutes......
    Shiggy, you got a p.m. coming; here is an excerpt from it, and IMO, something that needs to be addressed to every customer out there.

    " I'm still a little bothered by something though. If you guys knew there were shallow reamed headtubes, you:

    1] Didn't check your stock post discovery, and correct the oversights.
    2] Sent them out in that condition.
    3] Didn't even bother to tell me/other customers about it; left me to discover it myself.
    4] Expect me to pay for the manufacturing oversight."

    Yea, so it may be 15 dollars, or whatever. It was 20 phone calls to all the local Boulder Colorado shops, which none had the proper tools. Yes, your lead to Redstone bikes hit paydirt, with a week lead time, and money out of my pocket to fix something that I did not screw up.

    The rst is in the p.m.
    ****

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    It surprises me that people want to lower the BB on the Guapo. I run 170mm cranks with a Float 36 and I am smacking things all the time but I do live in an area where there are a lot of things to hit. .
    Craig, different strokes for different folks. I ride in the colorado front range, where it's chunky, but nothing like arizona chunk, or anyone else's chunk. I spent the last two years on a banshee spitfire, with a 13 inch bottom bracket, with flat pedals, and I really didn't have many pedal strikes, because:
    I learned to time my pedaling amidst the chunk, because:
    I love the cornering that a low BB provides. I had dh bike performance in a 5 inch travel package. It was awesome. I just couldn't deal with the maintenance any longer.
    I've spent years on high BB bikes; it's not where I am right now.
    Getting back to different strokes for different folks, I find it kind of funny when people say that "this or that bike" should be this high, for this intent, and that anything else just seems wrong to them. Aren't you the guy who built a 28 pound EG, that you use in races? Should I find that strange and wrong? I don't; it's just what you wanted to do with the frame. So I, and others, who are waiting for the next generation 67 degree or slacker, sub 1.5 BB, are just doing what we want to do with the item we purchased with our money.
    It's all good, it's all individual, and there's no right or wrong.
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    Didn't say it was right or wrong, just said I was surprised by it. That's it, end of story.

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    I'm suprised one would do a custom build and not plan to ream and face the head tube as well as chase and face the bottom bracket. It never crossed my mind to forego checking these independent of the manufacturer. These aren't handbuilt customs, they're mass produced in Taiwan.

    Titus owes me nothing. For half the cost of a Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Ventana.., they brought to market a solid winner. All one has to do is ride an El Guapo to understand it is the top value in it's class, cable routing and all.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-elperfecto.jpg  


  32. #32
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I'm suprised one would do a custom build and not plan to ream and face the head tube as well as chase and face the bottom bracket.
    I have never had to ream a head tube. Two good local shops I have contacted never had to do that either. The facts mentioned here that many shops do not even carry tools for 44mm is another indication.

    Frankly, I have always bought frames and parts on good deals, as I prefer to have multiple bikes on the same budget, and my research indicated that Guapo is the best deal and performs great, unfortunately did not find one to rent, but now I am having a bit of buyer remorse (and I will only receive my frame tomorrow, and their headset that I did not want to use later. I do not want to use parts I did not choose, even a headset, and driving to pay $80 to fix an obvious defect is a bit annoying.). Maybe I should just return that an keep riding Coiler for another three years - but just noticed that Planet X/Titus charges 15% restocking fee on returns.
    Last edited by Axe; 03-16-2012 at 12:00 AM.

  33. #33
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    Well the 44mm standard is fairly new and with the economy the way it is, it doesnt surprise me that shops are hesitant to buy tools they may never need. Nothing wrong with the Mixer headset, I'd say return your other headset (that probably cost twice as much) a buy something nice for your wife or girlfriend. If you return the Guapo, it will be your loss.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Nothing wrong with the Mixer headset, I'd say return your other headset (that probably cost twice as much) a buy something nice for your wife or girlfriend. If you return the Guapo, it will be your loss.
    It is 75g heavier with no added functionality. And I can not use an adjustable angle headset unless I pay 8% of the frame price (plus two hours of my time) to fix a manufacturing defect. I do not build my bikes that way, think whatever you want about that..

    Yes, it will be my loss, as they charge 15% restocking. Even bikesdirect does not do that. And shipping.

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    I'm not trying to stand up for Titus, I'm just trying to come up with a viable alternative for you. Like some have mentioned, even if you spend $80 your still way better off then if you had bought a Santa Cruz or Mojo. Once you ride the Guapo, you will forget about that $80 pretty quickly.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    I'm not trying to stand up for Titus, I'm just trying to come up with a viable alternative for you. Like some have mentioned, even if you spend $80 your still way better off then if you had bought a Santa Cruz or Mojo. Once you ride the Guapo, you will forget about that $80 pretty quickly.
    My alternative is to order Nicolai Helius AM, custom colors ( ), adjustable travel, 12mm rear, slightly taller and slacker. Twice more money.

    Yes, I would certainly keep Guapo over SC or Mojo. It is, in fact, the best deal for an AM bike out there, any minor hiccups nonwithstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is 75g heavier with no added functionality. And I can not use an adjustable angle headset unless I pay 8% of the frame price (plus two hours of my time) to fix a manufacturing defect. I do not build my bikes that way, think whatever you want about that..

    Yes, it will be my loss, as they charge 15% restocking. Even bikesdirect does not do that. And shipping.
    Send the frame back. We will ream the head tube and install your headset (if you send it at the same time) and return it to you. We will cover shipping both ways.

    The return policy was a bit confusing. We normally do not charge restock fee. It is being clarified.
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  38. #38
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    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
    That's Mo' Better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
    And with that announcement, this has officially become a non-issue going forward. Good to see.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betarad View Post
    And with that announcement, this has officially become a non-issue going forward. Good to see.
    On one, Brant, and folks - they seem to have a good history so far of attention to details, great value, and clever engineering. I am sure they will do very well with the Titus brand line going forward, once they settle in.

    ...So I am still tempted to return frame, as long as I am making a trip to the post office anyway (just as an excuse to spend more money on something that is not really better) - though I am sure to keep 456c I have ordered simultaneously.

    P.S. To be honest, the only serious doubt about Guapo that I have is the lack of a frame bottle mount. I know it sounds silly, but I hate camelbacks - or carrying bottles in backpack and did not have a good experience with seatpost and stem mounted bottle. Same issue with Mojo (and I liked FSR style suspension better anyway).

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I'm suprised one would do a custom build and not plan to ream and face the head tube as well as chase and face the bottom bracket. It never crossed my mind to forego checking these independent of the manufacturer. These aren't handbuilt customs, they're mass produced in Taiwan.

    Titus owes me nothing. For half the cost of a Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Ventana.., they brought to market a solid winner. All one has to do is ride an El Guapo to understand it is the top value in it's class, cable routing and all.
    looking @ your bike, it appears the BB is less than 13". do you know what it is? would you mind posting it & the A-C of your fork? thanks
    breezy shade

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    OK. Message heard. All El Guapos will have the head tube reamed before they are shipped.
    That's good to hear for everyone going forward. It stops me from posting the five paragraph long rant on bussiness ethics that I've been writing this morning.
    Since you were offering to pay shipping both ways to correct the ream, how would you feel about re-imbursing me the $20 I just paid Walt to ream my 44mm bore? It's quite a bit cheaper than the $45 you would have spent shipping my frame.
    Yes, seriously.
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  44. #44
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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    I can post that bussiness ethics anytime; I saved it. Sounds like Craigstr wants to hear it.
    ****

  46. #46
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    No

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I can post that bussiness ethics anytime; I saved it. Sounds like Craigstr wants to hear it.
    I was thinking more along the lines of asking to be reimbursed for $20.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of asking to be reimbursed for $20.
    Okay, and why not? There is already an established history that shows Titus received a bunch of frames with the shallow bore, and an established history the titus has pushed back against customers, like me, raising a fuss about it. Shiggy has now declared they will ream all the headtubes. So for one, WTF didn't that happen earlier? And WTF should I have to pay for, what could have been an easy fix on titus' end to take care of the problem instead of dumping on the customer?
    This is not about the money. It's about the bussiness ethics. And I will take this a lot farther than you, Shiggy, titus/planet x/on-one will care for.
    Carefull Shiggy not to abuse your moderator powers to cover your bussiness ethics/blunders concerning my posts. I've copied the other supermods concerning this.You and I are going to talk next week.
    ****

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I've copied the other supermods concerning this.You and I are going to talk next week.
    Dude, come on. I was building up frames from many different companies - this is by far not that much of a big deal. (Though indeed mildly annoying). On One are cool.

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    ..........
    breezy shade

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Dude, come on. I was building up frames from many different companies - this is by far not that much of a big deal. (Though indeed mildly annoying). On One are cool.
    Axe, you are not the only other one besides me who had this issue. And while midly annoying as an issue, it's the fight over what was such a trivial thing that titus could have taken care of, but didn't, and dumped on us, the customers, that makes it more of a trivial thing.
    Craigstr, I don't have a beef with you. I ask you to back out of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    ..........
    nhodge, I can be a very reasonable guy. I understand manufacturing; I.ve been a machinist for 33 years. I know what it takes to makes thibgs, What makes me a total whack jo, like right now, is when manufacturers try to cover up their mistakes, and pass it off to the customer.
    ****

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I spent the last two years on a banshee spitfire, with a 13 inch bottom bracket, with flat pedals, and I really didn't have many pedal strikes, because:
    I learned to time my pedaling amidst the chunk, because:
    I love the cornering that a low BB provides. I had dh bike performance in a 5 inch travel package. It was awesome. I just couldn't deal with the maintenance any longer.
    I've spent years on high BB bikes; it's not where I am right now.
    I'll be interested to hear your opinion of the EG, especially with the short-fork and angleset. I had a Spitfire as well, and I found that the anti-squat was the main factor in preventing pedal strikes on that frame. I have more pedal strikes with my EG, even when it was set up with an 180mm fork and had an additional inch of static BB height over the Spitfire.

    As to the headtube depth reaming, it is a problem that has been well documented on this forum. I do agree that it should have been noted on the sales website as well, but I'm happy to see that it's been made right going forward.

  53. #53
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    No beef here

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Craigstr, I don't have a beef with you. I ask you to back out of this.
    No hard feelings, you are a machinist by trade so this has obviously hit a nerve with you. I just ask one thing...lets keep it off this thread. You can work it out with Shiggy and Titus. Lets keep this forum clean, I cant stand it when it gets like the homer forum. Lets just keep it about bikes, as positively as we can.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    No hard feelings, you are a machinist by trade so this has obviously hit a nerve with you. I just ask one thing...lets keep it off this thread. You can work it out with Shiggy and Titus. Lets keep this forum clean, I cant stand it when it gets like the homer forum. Lets just keep it about bikes, as positively as we can.
    Craigster, I can do that for now. Thank you.
    ****

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    nhodge, I can be a very reasonable guy. I understand manufacturing; I.ve been a machinist for 33 years. I know what it takes to makes thibgs, What makes me a total whack jo, like right now, is when manufacturers try to cover up their mistakes, and pass it off to the customer.
    i talked a friend of mine into buying the El Guapo recently & we were treated to the headtube situation right away, which wasn't real encouraging. we were thinking,"oh man, what else are we gonna find building this thing up." but, he needed a headset anyway since he wanted to keep his other bike complete & it had a straight 8th. On One's headset, as you know fits & it's only $65. in the meantime, they came out w/ the admission that they fkt up & they offered to ream it out for free when we drive through Portland, which for us is no big deal. for you, not so convenient, but luckily you got reamed for only $20. since the frame was only $999, ya gotta admit, for 20 extra,you're not exactly ruined. i know it ain't just the money for ya, but all 'n all in the long run, i'm thinking you're gonna be pretty damn happy w/ the frame, & i'd bet your frustrations of dealing w/ constant upkeep issues will be gone, like the Banshee.

    i don't really feel like they tried to cover up their mistake & passed it onto us poor bastards to deal w/. how a company responds to the situation that they created means alot to me & i think they've stood right up.

    you being a machinist for 33 years has got to drive you nuts to see something like this, but hey, build it up, ride it &
    Last edited by nhodge; 03-16-2012 at 08:53 PM.
    breezy shade

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    i talked a friend of mine into buying the El Guapo recently & we were treated to the headtube situation right away, which wasn't real encouraging. we were thinking,"oh man, what else are we gonna find building this thing up." but, he needed a headset anyway since he wanted to keep his other bike complete & it had a straight 8th. On One's headset, as you know fits & it's only $65. in the meantime, they came out w/ the admission that they fkt up & they offered to ream it out for free when we drive through Portland, which for us is no big deal. for you, not so convenient, but luckily you got reamed for only $20. since the frame was only $999, ya gotta admit, for 20 extra,you're not exactly ruined. i know it ain't just the money for ya, but all 'n all in the long run, i'm thinking you're gonna be pretty damn happy w/ the frame, & i'd bet your frustrations of dealing w/ constant upkeep issues will be gone, like the Banshee.

    i don't really feel like they tried to cover up their mistake & passed it onto us poor bastards to deal w/. how a company responds to the situation that they created means alot to me & i think they've stood right up.

    you being a machinist for 33 years has got to drive you nuts to see something like this, but hey, build id up, ride it &
    nhodge, thank you for the response, and understanding. Yes, the current events have driven me bonkers, Should nothing else come up during my build [which starts tomorrow], I will be much happier. And yes, given my occupation, I am a perfectionist: it is either right, or wrong, and there is no grey area in between. When I screw up, I own up to it; it is how I can keep my job. There is no B.S. on my part that can cover it up. I work in the aerospace industry.
    As I've said, it's not about $20.00. It's about the integrity, and the honor and truth behind doing what you will say you will do.
    ****

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    looking @ your bike, it appears the BB is less than 13". do you know what it is? would you mind posting it & the A-C of your fork? thanks
    Running 2.35 front/ 2.1 rear it looks to be around 12.75". The A-C is low at 520mm, I run a EC49 lower cup that may add about 10mm. It's low but I love how it handles. I do wish the chain stay was a bit shorter by .5". I would tell you the HTA but I cheaped out and failed to purchase a digital angle checker when it was on sale at Rockler.

    I do not consider the head tube ream a defect as it is really an issue with aftermarket parts compatability.

    Renegade, you do seem to be rather indignant over this, do you truly feel you have been abused by a company with poor ethics? If there had been an issue with suspension kinematics or metallurgy I would be in complete agreement with your sentiments, but given the nature of the problems with the EG, those being cable routing and the headtube ream, I personally was willing to let Titus slide on these when I considered the overwhelming contrast of cost savings and positive attributes this bike possesses.

    Axe, maybe consider the EG 29er frame running 650B, with both shock mounts on the bottom tube there may be room for a bottle.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blofeld View Post
    I'll be interested to hear your opinion of the EG, especially with the short-fork and angleset. I had a Spitfire as well, and I found that the anti-squat was the main factor in preventing pedal strikes on that frame. I have more pedal strikes with my EG, even when it was set up with an 180mm fork and had an additional inch of static BB height over the Spitfire.
    Blofeld; I built up the bike today and rode it. To get a base standard, I installed my zero degree almost zero stack headset [probably 2mm at the most stack height], and measured the headtube angle and BB height, with a rockshox lyrik u-turn coil fork. HT came in about 68.5 degrees with the fork at 150mm of travel. I could see it get to the claimed 68 with the fork fully extended, and an external headset cup. BB height came in at 13.25 inches! I was blown away; I was expecting 13.8 inches.
    I removed that headset, and installed the cane creek angleset, 1 degree cup [I also have the .5 and 1.5 degree cup]. The angleset adds a little more stack height. With the fork at 150mm, I got 67.5 degrees, closer to 67 when I dial the fork out to 160mm. Bottom bracket still bout 13.25 inches. I'm giddy with pleasure over the low BB, coming off the spitfire, I'm a convert to low.
    I'm also quite surprised over the climbing ability so far; lot's less squat than the turners I've owned. Good technical handling. Haven't gotten up to speed on a trail yet. [snow].

    The bike feels great.
    ****

  59. #59
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    El Guapo in the box...

    Let me write down my story about this .... I'm in Portugal so I decided to buy a 2012 El Guapo from On-One UK and I got it on the box since 5th of March... a few days earlier this conversation here, my bad.

    As I'm more on the downhill/steep side of the ride, the slackset option on Ed Oxley videos sounded like the triggering for my final decision ... and I went for it

    Firstly I wasn't in a rush to get it build so I slowly got all the new stuff first for a perfect dream build, 2012 55's full XT etc , and when I got to the phase of ordering the right version of slackset , I'm informed that I need to rebore the top cup frame insert. what? how?... Very simple .. was the answer by Brant. Yes it's simple but...

    I start thinking in a way to go around the weird scenario of reboring my new frame as my local shop did not have the tool.

    I thought about workscomponents... They make the on-one headsets and slacksets, and asking them to take that extra out from the top cup of a -2 slackset was the ideia...custom

    I confirmed if this was ok with Brant again and I order it , payed it... and since that go for it email to workcomponets, 2 moths passed...

    some erratic mail replys and no slackset ... no build, no titus... and thinking what a curse this buy was at this time... at least I still got my old bike to ride...

    My El Guapo is still on the cardboard box as I previously said... this little 5mm depth left me on a much longer depth of trouble...

    So after reading here from Shiggy, that US customers can return their frames for this fix without any additional cost , why here in Europe the answer wasn't that as well?

    " I'm afraid the only way I am aware of getting around this problem is to get the head tube reamed, you might want to have a ring around a few different workshops to see if anyone has the correct tools.
    Regards Jamie-Customer Service Advisor "April 25, 2012 11:45:37 AM

    This was the option gived...

    So as someone here wrote before...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Okay, and why not? There is already an established history that shows Titus received a bunch of frames with the shallow bore, and an established history the titus has pushed back against customers, like me, raising a fuss about it. Shiggy has now declared they will ream all the headtubes. So for one, WTF didn't that happen earlier? And WTF should I have to pay for, what could have been an easy fix on titus' end to take care of the problem instead of dumping on the customer?
    This is not about the money. It's about the bussiness ethics. And I will take this a lot farther than you, Shiggy, titus/planet x/on-one will care for.
    Carefull Shiggy not to abuse your moderator powers to cover your bussiness ethics/blunders concerning my posts. I've copied the other supermods concerning this.You and I are going to talk next week.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by brajal View Post
    Let me write down my story about this .... I'm in Portugal so I decided to buy a 2012 El Guapo from On-One UK and I got it on the box since 5th of March... a few days earlier this conversation here, my bad.

    As I'm more on the downhill/steep side of the ride, the slackset option on Ed Oxley videos sounded like the triggering for my final decision ... and I went for it

    Firstly I wasn't in a rush to get it build so I slowly got all the new stuff first for a perfect dream build, 2012 55's full XT etc , and when I got to the phase of ordering the right version of slackset , I'm informed that I need to rebore the top cup frame insert. what? how?... Very simple .. was the answer by Brant. Yes it's simple but...

    I start thinking in a way to go around the weird scenario of reboring my new frame as my local shop did not have the tool.

    I thought about workscomponents... They make the on-one headsets and slacksets, and asking them to take that extra out from the top cup of a -2 slackset was the ideia...custom

    I confirmed if this was ok with Brant again and I order it , payed it... and since that go for it email to workcomponets, 2 moths passed...

    some erratic mail replys and no slackset ... no build, no titus... and thinking what a curse this buy was at this time... at least I still got my old bike to ride...

    My El Guapo is still on the cardboard box as I previously said... this little 5mm depth left me on a much longer depth of trouble...

    So after reading here from Shiggy, that US customers can return their frames for this fix without any additional cost , why here in Europe the answer wasn't that as well?

    " I'm afraid the only way I am aware of getting around this problem is to get the head tube reamed, you might want to have a ring around a few different workshops to see if anyone has the correct tools.
    Regards Jamie-Customer Service Advisor "April 25, 2012 11:45:37 AM

    This was the option gived...

    So as someone here wrote before...
    Sorry about your problems with the EG. Are you waiting for a headset from Titus/on-one or from workcomponets? The EG headset right now is $30 and may be worth picking up, just to get you moving right away (On-One Smoothie Mixer Tapered Headset).

  61. #61
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    I'm waiting for workscomponents to send me the angle headset with the reduced top cup... It's payed... probably arrives this week , but it took 2 months and 12 emails...

    I ride some pretty steep stuff here so the slaker the better ...

    where is the smoothie at $30 on the US titus store? It's down now right?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by brajal View Post
    I'm waiting for workscomponents to send me the angle headset with the reduced top cup... It's payed... probably arrives this week , but it took 2 months and 12 emails...

    I ride some pretty steep stuff here so the slaker the better ...

    where is the smoothie at $30 on the US titus store? It's down now right?
    Click the link above, it works for me.

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    Nice Shiggy: way to support your customers [not]. Perhaps Shiggy knows and can call the 20 bike shops in your area that doesn't have the reamer also?
    Shiggy, you offered it to USA customers, now take the 40 dollars you would have spent shipping my bike back to you for you to ream my headtube, and the 20 dollars you owe me for what I paid out of pocket to fix your manufacturing defect, and take care of this guy.
    Otherwise, this is the legacy that follows you everywhere: Shiggy, the guy who wouldn't own up to taking care of his manufacturing defect.
    ****

  64. #64
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    Renegade. DM me your email address and I will PayPal you your usd20 if that's what's owed.

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    Renegade. DM me your email address and I will PayPal you your usd20 if that's what's owed.
    HA! awesome
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Nice Shiggy: way to support your customers [not]. Perhaps Shiggy knows and can call the 20 bike shops in your area that doesn't have the reamer also?
    Shiggy, you offered it to USA customers, now take the 40 dollars you would have spent shipping my bike back to you for you to ream my headtube, and the 20 dollars you owe me for what I paid out of pocket to fix your manufacturing defect, and take care of this guy.
    Otherwise, this is the legacy that follows you everywhere: Shiggy, the guy who wouldn't own up to taking care of his manufacturing defect.
    Hate to say it, but you have a point. I wonder, outside of MTBR, how many people have run into these issues? I wonder if people are buying an EG, having a headset installed at their local shop (improperly) and never even thinking about it. What happens in that case? Me thinks it might have been smarter to just sell the EG with the smoothie mixture headset already installed....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Hate to say it, but you have a point. I wonder, outside of MTBR, how many people have run into these issues? I wonder if people are buying an EG, having a headset installed at their local shop (improperly) and never even thinking about it. What happens in that case? Me thinks it might have been smarter to just sell the EG with the smoothie mixture headset already installed....
    Doesn't the shallow counterbore totally prevent installation? I was under the impression that once the defect was noted frames were shipped with a Mixer installed or with the ream depth fixed.

    I suppose the number of people with issues would be equal to the number of frames sold before the defect was noted, minus those using the Mixer and minus those (like myself) who always face, chase and ream because of overspray and assumed manufacturing defects (rather than design oversights).

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blofeld View Post
    Doesn't the shallow counterbore totally prevent installation? I was under the impression that once the defect was noted frames were shipped with a Mixer installed or with the ream depth fixed.

    I suppose the number of people with issues would be equal to the number of frames sold before the defect was noted, minus those using the Mixer and minus those (like myself) who always face, chase and ream because of overspray and assumed manufacturing defects (rather than design oversights).
    Well, if that is the case, that is a good thing.

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    Its pretty obvious when the top cup doesn't go all the way in. If a shop lets one go out the door like that, shame on them, they shouldn't be in business. I cant believe we are still discussing this, Renegade got his $$, all the existing frames are being reamed before they go out the door and the issue has been fixed on the next batch. It was a mistake, they happen, Titus is doing it's best to make good on it. Look at all the defects Specialized had with that triple crown fork and the command post, it happens.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Titus is doing it's best to make good on it..
    So it took them over two months to re-imburse me? It took me two months of coercing them by posting here to get someone's attention? Knolly or Turner would never had let this go that long.

    Brant, e-mail has been sent with my paypal address.
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  71. #71
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    So it took them over two months to re-imburse me? It took me two months of coercing them by posting here to get someone's attention? Knolly or Turner would never had let this go that long.
    O my goodness, they paid you back! take the money go to the corner and wipe yor nose you whiney brat.

    They made a mistake so-be-it.

    Have you ever dealt with any other manufacturer in any other industry that is ready to give back the money it cost an end user to fix a mistake the manufacturer made? Most will hardly even aknowledge a f-up let alone pay you for it
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  72. #72
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    If it were Knolly you would still be waiting on a February run Chilcotin and be out $2500!

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blofeld View Post
    Doesn't the shallow counterbore totally prevent installation?
    u can not press in a "regular" headset.... at least on top, as they normally have a longer insert depth





  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    I cant believe we are still discussing this,.
    I'm glad this was and still is discussed here, you can only speak by yourself. Reading this was what gave me energy to once again contact on-one in order to understand why I'm left with a problem that wasn't mine. I wanted a slacker head angle and I'm still trying to get it...

    This problem was terrible obvious, you don't have a test period like other products to see that this was trouble ... specially after the slackset option was on videos and on press...

    I have a mate here in Portugal that bought one EG a month later, and knowing this because this threads here made him ask for a pre slack set install... I wish I knew that ...

  75. #75
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    Both the slackset and smoothie mixer will fit in the shallow bore. Brant stated he took the specs off of those headsets, that's where the issue began. I had the same problem with my frame, I had a Cane Creek 40 headset for my build and it didn't fit. I couldn't find a shop that had the correct size ream tool and ended up buying a smoothie mixer and using the top cup. Yeah it was an inconvenience, but I worked my way through it. Did I ask for Titus to pay for the time it took to call 12 shops looking for the correct tool? No. Did I ask Titus to pay for the smoothie mixer headset? No. Did I not ask for reimbursement because I am on the Ambassador program? No. In 2011 I was on the Knolly Ambassador program, I paid for a 2011 Delirium frame, when I got it the derailleur hanger had been slightly damaged. I called and asked for a replacement, I didnt get one. I had to pay for it, $55.

  76. #76
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    BTW, I have not received any re-imbursement from Brant yet.

    Craigstr, to recap, when I purchased the frame, and spoke to a human on the phone, I was not told about the issue. I was not offered the smoothie mixer headset. I found out about it when I received the frame, found out it was a known issue, found out that Titus was just passing the [rpblem on to the consumer as is. TO ME, that is so wrong on several fronts. Maybe it's no big deal to you, but it is a big ethical deal to me, and I have all the right in the world to talk about it as much as I want, just as you have to right to be a Titus suck-up.
    ****

  77. #77
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    This thread can use some cheese.


    ..for all the whine...
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Both the slackset and smoothie mixer will fit in the shallow bore. Brant stated he took the specs off of those headsets, that's where the issue began. I had the same problem with my frame, I had a Cane Creek 40 headset for my build and it didn't fit. I couldn't find a shop that had the correct size ream tool and ended up buying a smoothie mixer and using the top cup. Yeah it was an inconvenience, but I worked my way through it. Did I ask for Titus to pay for the time it took to call 12 shops looking for the correct tool? No. Did I ask Titus to pay for the smoothie mixer headset? No. Did I not ask for reimbursement because I am on the Ambassador program? No. In 2011 I was on the Knolly Ambassador program, I paid for a 2011 Delirium frame, when I got it the derailleur hanger had been slightly damaged. I called and asked for a replacement, I didnt get one. I had to pay for it, $55.
    The Slackset needs to have the headtube reamed deeper.

    The next shipment of EGs will be done right at the factory.
    mtbtires.com
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  79. #79
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    Yep.....you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    BTW, I have not received any re-imbursement from Brant yet.

    Craigstr, to recap, when I purchased the frame, and spoke to a human on the phone, I was not told about the issue. I was not offered the smoothie mixer headset. I found out about it when I received the frame, found out it was a known issue, found out that Titus was just passing the [rpblem on to the consumer as is. TO ME, that is so wrong on several fronts. Maybe it's no big deal to you, but it is a big ethical deal to me, and I have all the right in the world to talk about it as much as I want, just as you have to right to be a Titus suck-up.
    And I have every right in the world to tell everyone Im tired of hearing about it.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    BTW, I have not received any re-imbursement from Brant yet.
    I am on a riding/testing trip in the Maritime Alps near Nice, France with Dirt magazine. Testing Titus el Guapo 29ers and the new on one 29er tyres.
    I only have my iPhone and connection is flakey.
    I will reimburse you your $20 when I get back to the UK in a few days.
    Hope that's ok. :-/

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    This thread can use some cheese.


    ..for all the whine...
    ...

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    I bought EG 2012 too, but i was lucky enough to read this post. when i placed the order i emailed to on one for them to install the slackset and ream the frame at no cost.

    Its sad that no one from Titus gives a solution to their costumers that bought a faulty product.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruirocha View Post
    Its sad that no one from Titus gives a solution to their costumers that bought a faulty product.
    I thought you said that you did read this thread?

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    And the others like Brajal??? Not everyone comes to mtbr foruns...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    The Slackset needs to have the headtube reamed deeper.

    The next shipment of EGs will be done right at the factory.
    Craigstr as brand em-bas-uh-der you should be better informed, those statements without knowing the real deal here just add noise....for instance, taking the paint off is not a big deal to me... I prefer to mess with something that reflects on actual riding... so let me speak about something that I got interest...

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    This thread can use some cheese.


    ..for all the whine...
    we got the best here! wine and cheese...

  87. #87
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    Soothie mixer...w/ 5mm insertion depth lol


    die thread
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruirocha View Post
    I bought EG 2012 too, but i was lucky enough to read this post. when i placed the order i emailed to on one for them to install the slackset and ream the frame at no cost.

    Its sad that no one from Titus gives a solution to their costumers that bought a faulty product.
    It's sad that you had to ask them to complete the manufacturing of a complete frame, one that they sell as complete and ready to go. And it's even more sad that they spent so little effort taking care of the customers after the sale of the incomplete product.
    After all this. as an owner of their product, I have very little faith in their desire to cover any real warranty issues that may arise. I mean, if they can't even ship a complete product, and deny responsibility and recovery for this mistake......
    What the heck Titus? Do you want to be compared to Ellsworth?
    ****

  89. #89
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    **** Renny sorry to hear about all the trouble buddy!

    Once you get taken care of, what I really want to know is...how do you like the ride

    Let's see a pic of that bad boy.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by brant View Post
    Renegade. DM me your email address and I will PayPal you your usd20 if that's what's owed.
    Nice!

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    The Slackset needs to have the headtube reamed deeper.

    The next shipment of EGs will be done right at the factory.
    This will be fixed in MK3 also?

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by brajal View Post
    As I'm more on the downhill/steep side of the ride, the slackset option on Ed Oxley videos sounded like the triggering for my final decision ... and I went for it

    Is this the one? On-One Slackset Headset By Works Components For Carbon 456

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I'm suprised one would do a custom build and not plan to ream and face the head tube as well as chase and face the bottom bracket. It never crossed my mind to forego checking these independent of the manufacturer. These aren't handbuilt customs, they're mass produced in Taiwan.

    Titus owes me nothing. For half the cost of a Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Ventana.., they brought to market a solid winner. All one has to do is ride an El Guapo to understand it is the top value in it's class, cable routing and all.
    Sorry for the off topic...
    Is that EG yours? What kind of fork is that?

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    BTW, I have not received any re-imbursement from Brant yet.
    payment made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brant View Post
    payment made.
    Thank you Brant, but I just now checked my account, and there is no payment.
    ****

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Thank you Brant, but I just now checked my account, and there is no payment.
    Well, that explains why it says "unclaimed" at my side.

    Payment was made to address requested. Which is an unregistered PayPal person.

    I did what you asked. Down to you to sort out and claim now surely?


    Sent to:
    renny.gl****@sn****.com*(The recipient of this payment is Unregistered)

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by brant View Post
    Well, that explains why it says "unclaimed" at my side.

    Payment was made to address requested. Which is an unregistered PayPal person.

    I did what you asked. Down to you to sort out and claim now surely?


    Sent to:
    renny.gl****@sn****.com*(The recipient of this payment is Unregistered)
    Brant, I just sent you an e-mail.
    ****

  98. #98
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    Payment received, thank you Brant.
    ****

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Payment received, thank you Brant.
    Finally.
    "Do not go where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Gr View Post
    Sorry for the off topic...
    Is that EG yours? What kind of fork is that?
    Sorry for the late response, I had unsubscribed to this thread thinking it was done.

    It was produced by the now defunked Maverick-
    MAVERICK - Products

    Folks tend to either love or hate these forks. The A2C is 521mm which lowers the BB height and steepens the HTA some. Works phenomenally well on the El Guapo for SoCal trail riding.

    I had the head tube reamed and run a Cane Creek 110
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shallow counterbore for upper headset cup on an El Guapo?-headtubereamed.jpg  


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