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Thread: Roco-Lite

  1. #1
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    Roco-Lite

    I have crossed over to the Dark Side. Where my flashy RP23 w/ HV Sleeve previously resided now lies a black serpent waiting to strike.

    Sorry for the drama, all. The RP is on its way back to Fox for their second attempt to fix the oil leak coming from the rebound/propedal adjusters. I was really liking that shock with the HV Sleeve and was just about to experiment with reducing the volume to create the exact spring curve I want when the thing started squaking like a cage full of monkeys on banana day. No oil in the damper and the shaft got hot after about 20 seconds of use.

    Anywhoo...I'm on the way to Moab in a week and found a deal on the Roco Air R for $137! For that price I can just keep it for a spare if I don't like it. I've only had one ride on it so far and this is what I've got for ya':

    WEIGHT: I was in such a hurry to send the RP to Fox and get the Roco Air on the ML that I forgot to get weights. I'll get that when the RP comes back. I can tell you that the Roco Air is a hunk of metal--it's solid. By Marzocchi's and Fox's weights it's right between the RP and the DHXA. It added at least 1/4 to 1/3 lb to my bike weight (again, I appologize for not having a "before" weight on the bike, just a vague recollection).

    PSI: At 235lb on a size large ML I was running 170-175psi in the RP23 with standard sleeve for about 30% sag, 195-200psi with the HV sleeve for about 25% sag, and am currently around 125psi on the Roco Air for around 30% sag.

    OBSERVATIONS: The Roco Air is definantly made for big drops and hard runnin'. It is very smooth in the first half of the stroke (seals are breaking in so it got better by the end of the ride) and then will ramp up at the end. It never feels harsh but it won't give up full travel easily. At 30% sag I was doing 4' drops to flat ground and intentionally landing with my weight over the rear and was only using 1 3/4" of the 2" stroke. Back home i dropped the psi to 50 and bounced around to try and bottom it. I got 1 7/8" by doing this but could not get a full 2" no matter how hard I slammed it (this was the same on the RP as it would hit a small rubber ring on the damper shaft at 1 7/8"--a safety net I assume). The RP23 with the HV sleeve would literally swallow bumps and make them feel like pebbles but would use full stroke on many obstacles. The RP23 with the standard sleeve was harsh in the midrange travel but would take bigger drops better but i could never get it to use full travel without ridiculous sag. The Roco Air seems to swallow bumps almost as good as the RP/HV combo but apparently has some bottom out protection system in place. I don't know if it's hydraulic or a bumper but I got the feeling that this thing will take a lot more hang time than I would ever consider. If you're gravity oriented, I'd say this is certainly an option to consider. I do wonder if there is a way to decrease the bottom out resistance as I'd like to use more travel--anyone know how this shock works?
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    Nice review! Sounds like a great option....

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    Nice!

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    Bottom Out Resistance

    It sounds like you've really put the Roco through it's paces. Certainly a handy item to have in the toolbox if the stock Fox explodes!!

    I've never played with a Roco, but since you're getting less travel with more positive air pressure it doesn't sound like it uses a bumper. The Marzocchi site mentions "Fixed Negative Air" as one of the shock's features. In comparison, the FLOAT sets the negative spring pressure automatically using a port from the positive spring chamber. For Marzocchi forks with a negative air spring, apparently one of the functions of changing the pressure is "regulating the travel maximum value in a range corresponding to 20 mm." This makes me believe that you might be able to get more travel from the Roco by lowering the negative air pressure. I don't know if this is something that would have to be done at the factory or not - you could always roll up to 3000m, reset your positive pressure, find some drops, and re-test the travel!

  5. #5
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
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    What settings does the knob give ya...lockout, platform, full plush? How well does it work? I'm running a Push RP23 on the RX and I pretty much leave it in #2 engaged. Occasionally I'll turn it off, but was wondering how you felt about the Rocco Adjustments.

    Looks like a nice piece of hardware....always was a Zoch Fan.
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    What settings does the knob give ya...lockout, platform, full plush? How well does it work? I'm running a Push RP23 on the RX and I pretty much leave it in #2 engaged. Occasionally I'll turn it off, but was wondering how you felt about the Rocco Adjustments.

    Looks like a nice piece of hardware....always was a Zoch Fan.
    I believe the knob is rebound adjustment. No other adjustments other than air spring.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  7. #7
    "El Whatever"
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    Great info, bro!!!

    Wanna know what's up with the bottom out??
    Simple, undo the canister and see what's on the shaft... by your comments, I'd say small air chamber or a big bumper (just like a coil shock).

    You tried drops and just bounces to bottom it, should it be damping, you would have bottomed on one or the other, I think.

    It could be more compression damping with a lower spring rate, though.

    Anyway... seems like what we've been looking for since a long time... An air spring shock, with plush feeling but at the same big hit capabilities.

    I wonder how many pressure should my skinny arse would need at 150-155 fully soaked wet.
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    The more I look the more I get confused.

    Uhmmm seems to run lower air pressure which IMHO is a good thing (Sensitivity, etc). Never did like the idea of the Scott Ransom and its 400psi Shock It's also one of the reasons I'm excited about Brent's 2:1 Air Curnutt, which supposedly will run about 80psi spring pressure.

    This must be because the Rocco has a larger piston than the RP23 which it looks like it does. What confuses me a bit is that Quasi said he was running HIGHER air pressure in the HV Sleeve for the RP23. Dunno, but it sounds like it's pretty stout if he's dropping 4' with it.

    I'm a little confused about the Platform. It doesn't sound like it's really adjustable. I wonder if the "Negative Spring" is influenced by the Positive pressure and impacts the platform? From what Quasi describes it doesn't sound like it has an independent platform air adjust setting. If increasing the spring pressure increases the platform but does away with travel and stiffens the damping, then that flat out sucks in my book.

    And there isn't any On/Off switch like the RP23 which isn't that big a deal. But not being able to dial in a platform to me is a little strange. Yeah, Fox only has three settings, but at least you have those as options and you can always get it tuned to your liking by Push. Yeah, I guess you can also send them a Rocco to tune, but it just seems a little limited.

    Confusing shock this Air Rocco....
    Dug-da-Goat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    What settings does the knob give ya...lockout, platform, full plush? How well does it work? I'm running a Push RP23 on the RX and I pretty much leave it in #2 engaged. Occasionally I'll turn it off, but was wondering how you felt about the Rocco Adjustments.

    Looks like a nice piece of hardware....always was a Zoch Fan.
    Yeah, the knob is simply rebound. When I got the shock the rebound was set at full-slow and it felt about right on the bike. Then I noticed that adjusting the knob made no difference in rebound speed. I began unscrewing and apparently there is no positive stop at full-fast or you can turn it past the stop. I backed it out 25 clicks and it never hit a stop (I didn't go any farther for fear of messing something up). Took it out for the first ride and fiddled with the rebound mid-ride and it was now creating an adjustment range from superfast at 20 clicks out to slower than molasses in Decmeber at full slow. It was like something was sticking and began working during the ride. I'm currently running at 6 clicks out.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Uhmmm seems to run lower air pressure which IMHO is a good thing (Sensitivity, etc). Never did like the idea of the Scott Ransom and its 400psi Shock It's also one of the reasons I'm excited about Brent's 2:1 Air Curnutt, which supposedly will run about 80psi spring pressure.

    This must be because the Rocco has a larger piston than the RP23 which it looks like it does. What confuses me a bit is that Quasi said he was running HIGHER air pressure in the HV Sleeve for the RP23. Dunno, but it sounds like it's pretty stout if he's dropping 4' with it.

    I'm a little confused about the Platform. It doesn't sound like it's really adjustable. I wonder if the "Negative Spring" is influenced by the Positive pressure and impacts the platform? From what Quasi describes it doesn't sound like it has an independent platform air adjust setting. If increasing the spring pressure increases the platform but does away with travel and stiffens the damping, then that flat out sucks in my book.

    And there isn't any On/Off switch like the RP23 which isn't that big a deal. But not being able to dial in a platform to me is a little strange. Yeah, Fox only has three settings, but at least you have those as options and you can always get it tuned to your liking by Push. Yeah, I guess you can also send them a Rocco to tune, but it just seems a little limited.

    Confusing shock this Air Rocco....
    D Dug
    No platform on this shock. Just plushy/active goodness.

    This shock might not be great for a single pivot.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Uhmmm seems to run lower air pressure which IMHO is a good thing (Sensitivity, etc). Never did like the idea of the Scott Ransom and its 400psi Shock It's also one of the reasons I'm excited about Brent's 2:1 Air Curnutt, which supposedly will run about 80psi spring pressure.

    This must be because the Rocco has a larger piston than the RP23 which it looks like it does. What confuses me a bit is that Quasi said he was running HIGHER air pressure in the HV Sleeve for the RP23. Dunno, but it sounds like it's pretty stout if he's dropping 4' with it.

    I'm a little confused about the Platform. It doesn't sound like it's really adjustable. I wonder if the "Negative Spring" is influenced by the Positive pressure and impacts the platform? From what Quasi describes it doesn't sound like it has an independent platform air adjust setting. If increasing the spring pressure increases the platform but does away with travel and stiffens the damping, then that flat out sucks in my book.

    And there isn't any On/Off switch like the RP23 which isn't that big a deal. But not being able to dial in a platform to me is a little strange. Yeah, Fox only has three settings, but at least you have those as options and you can always get it tuned to your liking by Push. Yeah, I guess you can also send them a Rocco to tune, but it just seems a little limited.

    Confusing shock this Air Rocco....
    The Roco Air has NO platform--just the way I like it! I'm not sure how the negative spring works but the only adjustments are air spring pressure and rebound.

    Adjusting the air spring pressure in my typical sag range (25-30%) appeared to have little effect on the bottom out progression (I used about the same amount of travel no matter the pressure). At much lower pressures it is easier to force the shock into the last 1/4" of its travel but it seems to create some extra resistance at about the same point no matter what the air pressure. This leads me to believe that there is either a hydraulic or mechanical (bumper) bottom out feature that makes this shock big-drop worthy. If it's a bumper there is no perceptible transisiton point.

    I weigh about 245lb ready to ride with the CamelBak full and on a 4' drop this thing wasn't even breathing hard. It just sucked up the landing like I had ridden off a curb. The funny thing is, even though it doesn't provide full travel it never feels short from the saddle. The ride is very smooth and controlled. I plan to contact Marzocchi to do some investigating on whether or not I can adjust the bottom out progression. Ultimately I think it will end up on my QuasiMoto where the 3:1 leverage ratio should make better use of the entire travel.

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    [SIZE="5"]HOLD THE PHONE! [/SIZE] I just got off the phone with a tech man at Marzocchi USA and he explained something to me that I have not heard anyone else say about this shock. It has a "fixed" negative spring but coupled to this function is an adjustable bottom out resistance.

    Look at the picture of the shock. The body consists of three "visual" sections--the upper section is black and has the sticker on it...below that is the machined aluminum section...below that is the lower black section. This lowest black section unscrews from the machined aluminum section to reveal a rubber o-ring on a floating aluminum carrier. By unthreading this lower section and thus freeing the o-ring you can then thread it back on at various eye-to-eye lengths thus creating different air pressures (I think the tech actually said vacuum not pressure) in a small secondary air chamber on the very exterior circumference of the shock body thus changing the negative air pressure and thus changing the bottom out resistance.

    The tech said this creates more or less "negative vacuum" which affects negative air pressure and bottom out resistance. I had a hard time following his explanation but the bottom line is that if you thread this piece on at max shock compression you get max bottom out resistance (this is the factory setting)...if you thread it on at max extension you get the least bottom out resistance. It is then variable at any eye-to-eye length in between. This seems very cool to me and I'm quite excited to experiment with this function in the days ahead. Stay tuned!

  13. #13
    thats right living legend
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    If it doesn't feel bad, and isn't getting full travel, that's a good thing... No? Leave it be.

    Did you get to try it at any high speed stuff?

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    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi
    [SIZE="5"]HOLD THE PHONE! [/SIZE] I just got off the phone with a tech man at Marzocchi USA and he explained something to me that I have not heard anyone else say about this shock. It has a "fixed" negative spring but coupled to this function is an adjustable bottom out resistance.

    Look at the picture of the shock. The body consists of three "visual" sections--the upper section is black and has the sticker on it...below that is the machined aluminum section...below that is the lower black section. This lowest black section unscrews from the machined aluminum section to reveal a rubber o-ring on a floating aluminum carrier. By unthreading this lower section and thus freeing the o-ring you can then thread it back on at various eye-to-eye lengths thus creating different air pressures (I think the tech actually said vacuum not pressure) in a small secondary air chamber on the very exterior circumference of the shock body thus changing the negative air pressure and thus changing the bottom out resistance.

    The tech said this creates more or less "negative vacuum" which affects negative air pressure and bottom out resistance. I had a hard time following his explanation but the bottom line is that if you thread this piece on at max shock compression you get max bottom out resistance (this is the factory setting)...if you thread it on at max extension you get the least bottom out resistance. It is then variable at any eye-to-eye length in between. This seems very cool to me and I'm quite excited to experiment with this function in the days ahead. Stay tuned!
    Wow!!

    That makes sense... Something similar occured with the "Iso-Lite" cushion from Rock Shox... but the ways to deal with it are different.

    RS claims the different Iso-Lite Cushion elastomer changes the bottom out characteristics of the shock. I couldn't see how would it be as the IL elastomer is on the opposite side of the "bottom out" side, so to speak.

    I had a discussion with Jason from Sicklines (killing cool dude to deal with!) about it... and we kinda couldn't figure it out why RS made such a claim.

    Now the explanation from Marz tech explains why.

    Cool! With the sick low pressures I'd have to use, beng able to neglect the negative spring is very nice!!!

    There'll be a Fox Float R for sale soon, I think!!
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    Titusquasi...

    Got a chance to ask if it's really user serviceable like the Roco Coil???

    On the pics at Zoke's website, you can see there's an inflation port just like in a Fox. That would mean it's nitrogen filled and hence, not really user serviceable.

    Thanks for any info on that.
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    moto lite or quasi moto

    titusquasi, how does the moto lite compare to your quasi, which do you like better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Titusquasi...

    Got a chance to ask if it's really user serviceable like the Roco Coil???

    On the pics at Zoke's website, you can see there's an inflation port just like in a Fox. That would mean it's nitrogen filled and hence, not really user serviceable.

    Thanks for any info on that.
    I don't know about a nitrogen charge. The Marzy tech guy just said that they would be posting a service video that would detail all the maintenance you can do at home including the procedure for adjusting this "secondary air chamber". Apparently the shock I got is hot off the assembly line as the tech was supprised to hear my description of the shock indicating it was a last minute change that had just been made a couple of weeks earlier. Where did you find schematics detailing the internals of the Roco Air?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Wow!!

    That makes sense... Something similar occured with the "Iso-Lite" cushion from Rock Shox... but the ways to deal with it are different.

    RS claims the different Iso-Lite Cushion elastomer changes the bottom out characteristics of the shock. I couldn't see how would it be as the IL elastomer is on the opposite side of the "bottom out" side, so to speak.

    I had a discussion with Jason from Sicklines (killing cool dude to deal with!) about it... and we kinda couldn't figure it out why RS made such a claim.

    Now the explanation from Marz tech explains why.

    Cool! With the sick low pressures I'd have to use, beng able to neglect the negative spring is very nice!!!

    There'll be a Fox Float R for sale soon, I think!!
    My assumption is that by setting the secondary chamber at full shock extension the negative pressure is at its max and bottom out resistance is at the minimum...and vice versa. This makes for a very supple stroke with a linear spring curve (per the Marzy tech). Sounds to be perfect for you feather weights!

    With the revelation of this adjustable bottom out resistance, this shock may have found a permanent home on the ML and its twin may be on the Quasi in about a week!

    I was just foolin' around in the yard after setting the secondary spring at max extension (high negative air/ low bottom resistance) and the initial stroke does seem to be even smoother (if that's possible, and apparently it is)--like butter on hot toast. It's been awhile since I've been on a good coil shock but this feels pretty darn plush.

    Also, I can now force the shock to reach just a hair under 2" stroke by using low air pressure and a hard bounce. Before under similar pressure with the factory setting of max bottom resistance, I could only get 1 3/4" (1 13/16" if I really slammed it). Soooo...the adjustment does seem to affect bottoming resistance. More when I get some saddle time in.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    If it doesn't feel bad, and isn't getting full travel, that's a good thing... No? Leave it be.

    Did you get to try it at any high speed stuff?
    Good point but if I'm hitting a 4' drop with my weight hard on the saddle I want that to be a max travel moment. As I recently found out, I can now adjust this--awesome!

    High speed work on the one ride I've been on was excellent. Very little kick back on rapid fire hits and I expect this to get better by changing the secondary chamber pressure to create more negative pressure and less bottom resistance (should make the initial stroke more supple and the stroke more linear).

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big boss man
    titusquasi, how does the moto lite compare to your quasi, which do you like better?
    The way I see it, I've had the ML long enough that the "new" has worn off and which ever bike gets ridden the most is my favorite. I have long been a Quasi fan and I'm almost sad to say that it collects dust most of the time.

    The ML is simply more versatile. The frame weighs about 1.5lb less so with equal builds that's a decent difference. There's something more, the ML feels quicker and faster--I can't put a finger on it but there is a difference.

    I take the Quasi out when I want to just plant my rear in the saddle and let 6" of travel eat up anything in my path--I'm not out to be fast just to have some fun.

    I take the ML when I want to be ready for anything. Hit it hard and fast? No problem. Double back on the fun stuff to take a bigger drop? Bring it on. Crazy steep climbs? Gimme' more. Put in the miles to work the cardio? No sweat. The ML is like a Racer-X and the QuasiMoto rolled into one--I love it!

    Honestly, I'd sell the Quasi if I thought I could get decent money (which I can't) and if I didn't get ridiculously sentimentally attached to my bikes (which I do). She's a part of my life and will someday hang on the rec room wall when something irreplaceable breaks.

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    Thanks titusquasi !~! Super Luper post dood

    I ordered my Roco R earlier this week. Due to my frugalness it was sent international air post .... that means maybe two more weeks until I see it down here.

    It is good news that you can get an air shock with no constipation and a big piston !~!

    Soon, you can even send it to PUSH for the new piston

    Mine was $137 and this is the photo from seller's website:



    Don't know if mine will have adjustable bottom out ?~?

    I got it out of curiosity due to shimmed damping and no constipation... and since sending my DHX C to PUSH is a two month ordeal from here I would get a spare shock. Maybe I will be sending the Roco R instead

    Gotta go eat my burger now ....

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Thanks titusquasi !~! Super Luper post dood

    I ordered my Roco R earlier this week. Due to my frugalness it was sent international air post .... that means maybe two more weeks until I see it down here.

    It is good news that you can get an air shock with no constipation and a big piston !~!

    Soon, you can even send it to PUSH for the new piston

    Mine was $137 and this is the photo from seller's website:



    Don't know if mine will have adjustable bottom out ?~?

    I got it out of curiosity due to shimmed damping and no constipation... and since sending my DHX C to PUSH is a two month ordeal from here I would get a spare shock. Maybe I will be sending the Roco R instead

    Gotta go eat my burger now ....
    That website looks strangely familiar. Except I had another retailer that starts with a "J" price match it so I have a month to order one for the Quasi in the event the original site changes the price!

    Do elaborate on PUSH working on this shock. Is this a know fact? (I haven't been keeping tabs on the Suspension Board.)

    Your shock will have this adjustable bottom resistance/ negative air feature. They all do. In that pic you posted you can see some ports around the lower portion of the black section where the shaft inserts into the body (that came out sounding a bit inappropriate ). Those ports are there so you can use some sort of c-clip removal tool or similiar item to facilitate the installation and removal of this removable piece (much like removing the bb cups on the external bottom brackets). I found that as long as you can get a good grip on the piece you can remove it by hand.

    Anywhoo...you remove this piece and it frees up a carrier that is holding an o-ring that is actually holding the pressure. You don't have to remove all the pressure in the shock but the Marzy tech suggested I do this to make it easy to position the shock anywhere in its travel. This is where my understanding of this function ceases. All I know is that if you recap the removable piece at full shock compression you get max bottom resistance (and least negative pressure--he didn't say this but it is just my assumption--I'm probably wrong...this is the factory setting). If you recap this piece at full shock extension you get minimum bottom resistance (and I assume max negative spring to make a super supple initial stroke). The function is variable anywhere inbetween--you just have to be able to hold the shock static while you put the piece back on to be able to create a repeatable measurement.

    I have set the chamber at max extension to try and use more travel on the bigger hits. I've just done some plunking around in the driveway but I believe the shock does feel more supple in the initial stroke (which is what is supporting my assumption that this setting creates max negative air spring). The shock does seem more linear as you get into the meat of the stroke but there is still some bottom resistance in place.

    On the RP23with the HV sleeve I could set sag at 25% and bottom it by slamming down hard while hopping around the yard. On the Roco Air with the bottom resistance set to a minimum I can't make the shock bottom while doing this set at 30% sag. This shows me there is still some progression at the end of the stroke even when set at minimum bottom resistance.

    Bottom line is I'd bet a dollar you're going to love this shock. The seals will break in so give it time. I've only been on it an hour and it is noticeably smoother (and I don't see how it could get any better). The Roco Air feels like the RP/HV combo but with super smooth damping action and a progressive end stroke that creates a bottomless feel. With the RP/HV combo it felt like a pillow until it abruptly hit bottom. With the Roco Air it feels like a pillow that ramps up so smoothly that the 4' drop behind you felt like landing a curb drop. I don't think you can make an air shock feel more like a coil than this does--it really is incredible how supple this thing is. It keeps the rear tire tracking the ground as if it were attached with velcro! I think I'm loving Marzocchi!

  23. #23
    thats right living legend
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    Great thread and post's TQ! I hope you post more often.... Thanks!

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    TitusQuasi!
    I wanted to maybe clarify something, maybe. I have been working on my 07' 66sl trying to get the negative air chamber adjusted to fit my proper main air pressure.

    By compressing the shock with the negative chamber open, I believe you change the initial neg chamber volume. When you pump back up the shock, the negative chamber pressure self adjusts to match the main air pressure. So if there is 100psi in the main chamber there is 100 psi in the negative chamber. The only difference now is that your negative chamber volume is larger or smaller. When this chamber compresses, the volume dictates the progressivity of resistance, hence a smaller neg volume would have stronger bottom out resistance.

    I am glad someone found out the ROCO AIR has the ability to adjust the neg chamber volume. It's good to know...

    My 66 has a little different design cause it has a separate bottom out chamber but I believe the neg chamber volume concept is the same

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    TitusQuasi!
    I wanted to maybe clarify something, maybe. I have been working on my 07' 66sl trying to get the negative air chamber adjusted to fit my proper main air pressure.

    By compressing the shock with the negative chamber open, I believe you change the initial neg chamber volume. When you pump back up the shock, the negative chamber pressure self adjusts to match the main air pressure. So if there is 100psi in the main chamber there is 100 psi in the negative chamber. The only difference now is that your negative chamber volume is larger or smaller. When this chamber compresses, the volume dictates the progressivity of resistance, hence a smaller neg volume would have stronger bottom out resistance.

    I am glad someone found out the ROCO AIR has the ability to adjust the neg chamber volume. It's good to know...

    My 66 has a little different design cause it has a separate bottom out chamber but I believe the neg chamber volume concept is the same

    My 07 AM1 SL does pretty much the same thing, if I understand you correctly?

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