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  1. #1
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    Issues with the Motolite

    I was flicking through another forum last night and someone raised a few issues:

    - Firstly: one person suggested that the derailleur hangers on Motolites are very flimsy and break easily.

    - Secondly: The design of the Motolite suspension actually make the Horst link a waste of time as the angle of the rocker arm and the shock do not allow the linkage to work efficiently.

    Is any of this true? Or is it the opinions of a couch scientist who actually knows nothing about the bike itself.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    As to point # 2....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey74
    I was flicking through another forum last night and someone raised a few issues:

    - Firstly: one person suggested that the derailleur hangers on Motolites are very flimsy and break easily.

    - Secondly: The design of the Motolite suspension actually make the Horst link a waste of time as the angle of the rocker arm and the shock do not allow the linkage to work efficiently.

    Is any of this true? Or is it the opinions of a couch scientist who actually knows nothing about the bike itself.

    Thanks.
    I don't think I've ever heard anything negative about the way the motolites ride be people who have actually ridden them. Most people absolutely love the suspension.

    The der. hanger? No idea, but I'd certainly rather have it break than the der.

    Dave

  3. #3
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    #1 is a new one on me. I've never heard or experienced that.

    #2 Yea, there's a guy that goes by Steve from JH who might be an engineer. He and other propeller heads debate bike suspension all the time. He's never even ridden the MotoLite. Apparently, he's basing is OPINION based solely only his analysis using some bike linkage software.

    I'm sure he's a smart guy, but he's a bit a Troll and bad-mouths a lot of bikes. He rides an Ellsworth ID, which has been disparaged as being awkward, and is no long being made. I'm sure the ID must look really good on the linkage software, but the real world application is what really matters. Whafe, anything to offer?

    The other guy who talks a lot about linkage is a guy named Derby, and he has actually demoed the MotoLite and really liked it.

    Check out this thread

  4. #4
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    I don't know if I would call the RD hanger flimsy, but there have been a few people who have bent their RD hanger. If you are riding technical rocky terrain there is a greater chance of bending a RD hanger. I do not view the RD hanger as a problem.

    I have never heard anything regarding the inefficiency of the ML suspension. I have ridden alot of different bikes and the ML as well as the Racer X 100 suspension works great!

  5. #5
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    Hanger upgrade

    Titus revamped the derailleur hanger this year to be more resistant to breakage, but still ready to sacrifice itself to save the frame/derailleur.
    Good time to pick up a spare.

  6. #6
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    Well then

    As far as point one goes, yes I have bent a few aluminum Der hangers without even crashing. Right now I have a stainless steel one on there and havent had any problems. I know the stainless one is questionable due to possible dropout damage if I ever did crash, but I have crashed once in the last five years, so I will take my chances. I even went as far as putting a "Hanger Banger" on there, but I took it off after I flatted on the trail and it was a royal pain taking the wheel off.
    As far as point two goes, my opinion would be that if the suspension design isnt utilizing the Horst Link design to its fullest, then Titus should redesign the bike without the HL and quit paying on the FSR patent to the big "S", because the design works beautifully.

  7. #7
    FM
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    Both are total crap points imho.

    the hanger is fine, I have yet to break one. It's the same hanger as I had on my switchblade which I owned for 2 years, it's a good design. Much better than turners' imho, as it uses 5mm bolts instead of easy to strip smaller screws.

    As for the suspension design.... what?

  8. #8
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    The hanger is the same one Titus has been using on thousands of bike over the years. The aluminum version has been "improved" recently. I haven't tried the latest revision. I rode the stainless steel hanger for a couple years and it worked great.

    Don't believe everything you read on the internet (including this post). The geometry numbers do look a little funky on paper but the bike rides fantastic. I don't know if it's the right bike for you but it's definitely worth of consideration. Almost all of the high-end bikes ride well so fit should be your primary focus. So find a demo and form your own opinion.

    Now make a wish. If you forward this thread to 10 of your friends, it will come true.
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  9. #9
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    As a motolite owner i feel that i am qualitifed to answer this one. My hanger has been fine, although my riding buddy who has a RX has had two break and they are the same hanger.

    As for the second point again this is correct. On a bike like an original spcalized FSR the upper link had the affect of counter roating the seat stays compared to the motion of the chainstay. this meant that the axle path was more vertical.

    On the moto lite this is not the case as though the travel the top link pulls the seatstay forards and back meaning that the hub axle goes forards as well. The axle path of the moto lite is very similar to a single pivot, but since the horst link is there there is less pedal feedback.

    Saying all this it sill rides great and thats all that matter really.

    Stuart

  10. #10
    "El Whatever"
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    I have the same hanger on my Blade, and so far-so good. I have one spare for when necessity arises, but I have never damaged a hanger.

    On point two... yeah, it will not act like a true FSR, but that's not bad news.

    See, the wheelpath is slightly different... it's a nice wheelpath where the wheel has nice bump absortion on the initial part of the travel and then directs towards the rider for mistake proof handling by keeping your weight centered over the bike without changing the weight bias drastically deep into the stroke.

    While it has a bit more brake feedback than an FSR or ICT, it's not a bad thing, really.

    See... I came off a Giant Warp (crappy mid-monopivot). Then I got onto the Blade (true HL-FSR). My first descents on the Blade were scary precisely because the FSR does not squat under braking. The suspension is relatively unaffected by braking and this causes more forwards weight bias.

    The Warp had brake-squat... and when facing a steep descent, this is something good. While you sacrifice braking traction, your weight bias doesn't gets affected much by weight shifting due to inertia.

    ICT type suspensions (Pre-TNT Turners, Ellsworths) almost have brake jack. Not caused by the suspension itself, but by the weight shifting and the very little brake squat (your bike tries to pivot around a point in front of the front axle).

    For an aggressive use (like the ML is intended), I'd prefer some brake squat to keep the bike from pitching forwards while braking. BTW... deeper into travel, the ML works more like a true horst (as the Instant Center moves towards the front of the bike). True HL's do the opposite.

    BTW... the most highly regarded suspension systems today (DW-Link, Marin QUAD, FSR) all have instant centers at some point between the BB and the front axle. Only Ellsworth is left with the ICT which has instant centers forwards the front axle.

    Steve insists that he loves that... but IMHO, despite all the calculations and his praising of this system, a bike with an Instant Center that forwards would feel not as good as some bike that has the IC between the BB and the Front Axle.... I mean, do you like a bike that pitches forwards under rear-only braking on steep descents where you use mostly the rear brake? I don't.
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  11. #11
    wg
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Both are total crap points imho.

    the hanger is fine, I have yet to break one. It's the same hanger as I had on my switchblade which I owned for 2 years, it's a good design. Much better than turners' imho, as it uses 5mm bolts instead of easy to strip smaller screws.

    As for the suspension design.... what?
    I've gone through two on my Switch over the years and I believe Titus uses the same hanger on all their bikes.
    I always keep a spare hanger in the tool kits and on longer rides take it with me. The reason mine died was hard impact. The hanger bent and derailure didn't nor did the frame. Much cheaper part to replace so it did its job. I've also had them rebent back by the LBS a couple times when shifting issues were traced back to a minor bend. Again, it did its job vs. loosing something costing more $$.

    I don't know squat about the ML except its a nice bike and lotsa ppl dig 'em so .....
    Don't harsh my mello

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by smh151

    On the moto lite this is not the case as though the travel the top link pulls the seatstay forards and back meaning that the hub axle goes forards as well.
    yeah I here U, a sound point. but I think the rate link ( top link) is so short, in comparison to the other link ( swingarm), that this aspect doesn't matter much. seems it would make more of a deal it the rate link was longer. don' t you think? And taking a stroll down memory lane….. the original horst ( AMP) didn't have a rate link. I think the suspension geometry on the ML and RX are not that much fundamentally different then the mac strut AMP type suspension. Which is good in my mind. Sure the rate link moves the seat stay link down maybe almost a quarter inch, but the wheel moves 5 inches and the chain stay moves 2 inches forward..

  13. #13
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    In fact the ML has a more rearward-compressing path than the 5-Spot while travel is above sag and likely slightly more rearward at sag depending on sag depth than the ICT (monopivot-like) path of the 5-Spot.

    The Specialized FSR path is as you say is nearly all forward curving in path. (Don't understand how either relate very closely to a Dakar except in '02(?)). But a more original Horst link positioning of the pivots such as the ML produce a tighter radius curving path near sag which is more rearward compressing than FSR near the top of travel.

    I demoed a ML and it is remarkably snappy pedaling and just as bump compliant if not better due to less damping required compared to ICT or monopivot 5-Spot. Classic Horst link designs are softer in the seat compliance although snappier pedaling than ICT or equivalent monopivot pedaling design due to the faster (softer) damping and greater pedaling anti-squat. I prefer more aggressive anti-squat suspension geometry with very free bump compliance such as a real Horst link geometry rather than the more firm damper dependant monopivot-like ICT ride of the 5-Spot. But many others prefer firmer damping. I would buy a ML before a 5-Spot.

    S'all good. Have fun. The ride is what matters.



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  14. #14
    "Its All Good"
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    Quote Originally Posted by dulyebr
    #1 is a new one on me. I've never heard or experienced that.

    #2 Yea, there's a guy that goes by Steve from JH who might be an engineer. He and other propeller heads debate bike suspension all the time. He's never even ridden the MotoLite. Apparently, he's basing is OPINION based solely only his analysis using some bike linkage software.

    I'm sure he's a smart guy, but he's a bit a Troll and bad-mouths a lot of bikes. He rides an Ellsworth ID, which has been disparaged as being awkward, and is no long being made. I'm sure the ID must look really good on the linkage software, but the real world application is what really matters. Whafe, anything to offer?

    The other guy who talks a lot about linkage is a guy named Derby, and he has actually demoed the MotoLite and really liked it.

    Check out this thread
    A very interesting one to say the least, Steve from JH is a very bright cookie for sure. I mean that as a compliment to him too. His comments I know will be all in theory, with no practical methodology to it. I will not argue the point from a theory type CAD program, that is not a subject I am up with, many topics I am, but sadly thats not one..........

    To say this though:
    The design of the Motolite suspension actually make the Horst link a waste of time as the angle of the rocker arm and the shock do not allow the linkage to work efficiently. to me is a crazy comment.

    From a practical point of view, I have owned a severly BLING Id & now own a severly bling MotoLite. I dont mean this arrogantly, I am fortuante enough to work hard and feed money to my passion.

    Both bikes are fantastic to ride, the Id is super efficient and fast. In saying that, I truly feel my AM1 made the bike that much better, it slackened the HA, which helped hugely. I would also say the Id is not a beginner riders bike, it is a technical bike to ride in my opinion, high BB is terrible to some, but to some like myself I loved it. The sus is superb on really slow rough steep up hills, the traction is fantastic. Decends really well. I was not at all unhappy about the bike.

    I wanted a change, along came the ML. This bike is pure fun, climbs fantastic, does nto feel like it has 5 inches of travel at all, but does. Decends like a mother F er. It is hard for me to describe it. You see it is a Ti / carbon frame, great ridign characteristics also have a great rigid wheelset that helps hugely. I really need to ride an Ali MotoLite. Sh!t am rambling.

    Bottom line, when I was looking for a new bike, I could not find a bad review on the MotoLite, someone will spite me here, but you know the score very little negative press about this frame. I ourchased my bike with never seeing a ML in the flesh, let alone an ExoGrid one. I had a huge amount of help from this board and from Titus, and know, not a once did I speak with CC, but his other staff were fantastic..........

    The ML would suit more riders than the Id would for sure. Same as why so many like the 5 Spot. A great frame and ride, simple to ride fast.

    So all in all, I dont agree with the comment hands down, I have spent a good amount of time on both bikes, I know more practically (arrogant B Stard...LOL)

    YOU DECIDE, Which is the best horst link design bike. Just ride our bikes and get busy on it....... YEAH HA,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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  15. #15
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    in fact, the way most standard four bar / horst link bikes are designed, the only thing that really sets them apart from non horst link / single pivot bikes is braking behaviour.

    please note i am not commenting on whether that is a negative or positve offset, as everyone needs to find out for himself whatever he likes best (by riding). many people also comment that on the trail that difference is irrelevant anyways.

    as for the specific titus application, the difference in braking behaviour should at best be marginally different from a non horst link / single pivot bike.

    accordingly it would be possible to build a single pivot bike (provided that geometry, weight, spring rate, progression, ... would all be the same) which should ride practically identical to the titus.

    so there actually is a point to the second argument, even though i don't agree with the (negative) wording that has been choosen to illustrate those circumstances.

    in the end, it is the particular implementation of a specific bike, that makes that bike worth riding or not. for sure there are four bars out there that ride awesome, the same applying to single pivots. it's up to everyone to find out himself.

  16. #16
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by igorion
    in fact, the way most standard four bar / horst link bikes are designed, the only thing that really sets them apart from non horst link / single pivot bikes is braking behaviour.

    please note i am not commenting on whether that is a negative or positve offset, as everyone needs to find out for himself whatever he likes best (by riding). many people also comment that on the trail that difference is irrelevant anyways.

    as for the specific titus application, the difference in braking behaviour should at best be marginally different from a non horst link / single pivot bike.

    accordingly it would be possible to build a single pivot bike (provided that geometry, weight, spring rate, progression, ... would all be the same) which should ride practically identical to the titus.

    so there actually is a point to the second argument, even though i don't agree with the (negative) wording that has been choosen to illustrate those circumstances.

    in the end, it is the particular implementation of a specific bike, that makes that bike worth riding or not. for sure there are four bars out there that ride awesome, the same applying to single pivots. it's up to everyone to find out himself.


    So again, I guess Titus just kinda likes makig donations to Specialized. It's like kindness?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    So again, I guess Titus just kinda likes makig donations to Specialized. It's like kindness?
    I honestly wonder how long that's going to last under Pat Hus, who has been known to change lots of things around. Furthermore, Specialized doesn't like to license to big coorporations that could potentially compete. I also read, but could be wrong, the agreement for the license was with Chris and the owner of Specialized. Wonder what it will be without.

  18. #18
    thats right living legend
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    Nice Speculation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I honestly wonder how long that's going to last under Pat Hus, who has been known to change lots of things around. Furthermore, Specialized doesn't like to license to big coorporations that could potentially compete. I also read, but could be wrong, the agreement for the license was with Chris and the owner of Specialized. Wonder what it will be without.


    As long as we're making "blinde" speculations, I wonder how much longer Turner will continue to be made in the USA. Hmmmm seems like I read somewhere in some Brit mag he might be open to the posability??? Mabye not? Just thought I'd put that out there...

  19. #19
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    DING DING DING! THE TITUS POLICE ARE IN FULL FORCE!!!


    Gosh, the Titus board fanatics are just plain dumb and not open to any type of dialog, constructive or not. So long as they cover their asses with lies, such as the ones you and demo have been spreading for months here.

    Stop being so wrapped up in the brand of bike you guys ride. Perhaps you can just simply ride more and not worry about the back office politics and worry about whether there's a Titus you like when you're ready to buy again.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    As long as we're making "blinde" speculations, I wonder how much longer Turner will continue to be made in the USA. Hmmmm seems like I read somewhere in some Brit mag he might be open to the posability??? Mabye not? Just thought I'd put that out there...
    Very possible. Remember this famous pre-TNT quote:

    "There is a reason that I pay Specialized, proper positioning of the Horst link is the best way to build a bicycle rear suspension."

    David Turner 07/2004

    Change happens across the board, for better or worse. We shall see.

  21. #21
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    Geez...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    DING DING DING! THE TITUS POLICE ARE IN FULL FORCE!!!


    Gosh, the Titus board fanatics are just plain dumb and not open to any type of dialog, constructive or not. So long as they cover their asses with lies, such as the ones you and demo have been spreading for months here.

    Stop being so wrapped up in the brand of bike you guys ride. Perhaps you can just simply ride more and not worry about the back office politics and worry about whether there's a Titus you like when you're ready to buy again.

    What's your problem? You come over here, clearly trolling and act all surprised when people take offense?

    I really didn't see that much defensiveness. Certainly nothing compared to how you react when somebody possibly questions something about a Turner.

    Dave

  22. #22
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    I wasn't trolling.

    I can post here with my thoughts when I see fit.

    But I do enjoy the shock and awe reaction of the Titus zealots.

  23. #23
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    But I do enjoy the shock and awe reaction of the Titus zealots.
    Isn't that trolling?

    Is like if I'd pinch you at you at the ribs and would enjoy your pain. I would have done nothing I could be really punished for, but that doesn't take your bad reaction about it and it would be understandable.

    Or like Whafe once said it... like going to a lady's funeral and tell the husband you got laid with her.
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  24. #24
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    Nice spin, warp. You could be more sensible. Anyone posts anything on the Titus board that can be spun, it is. I try to post something as an addition to the thread and it gets spun, which is fine, but at the same time, I can enjoy the reaction I didn't intend to get. I do know now it is typical of the Titus board, however.

    I do even enjoy seeing the reactions when others post and the Titus board jumps all over them. It's great!

  25. #25
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    LOL, here we are talkin about derailler hangers(throwaway part). Engineering debates over the horst linkage and its affects on ???????. And now conspiracy theories galore and speculation about the Rise and Fall of Titus.

    Makes me wonder what will happen when SAPA raises their prices for frame manufacturing in this ever increasing monetary world. Then you'll see all the backpedaling of all the trolls and haters of global economics. (oh wait did I just post another speculation???)lol

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