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  1. #1
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    Issues with the Motolite

    I was flicking through another forum last night and someone raised a few issues:

    - Firstly: one person suggested that the derailleur hangers on Motolites are very flimsy and break easily.

    - Secondly: The design of the Motolite suspension actually make the Horst link a waste of time as the angle of the rocker arm and the shock do not allow the linkage to work efficiently.

    Is any of this true? Or is it the opinions of a couch scientist who actually knows nothing about the bike itself.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    As to point # 2....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey74
    I was flicking through another forum last night and someone raised a few issues:

    - Firstly: one person suggested that the derailleur hangers on Motolites are very flimsy and break easily.

    - Secondly: The design of the Motolite suspension actually make the Horst link a waste of time as the angle of the rocker arm and the shock do not allow the linkage to work efficiently.

    Is any of this true? Or is it the opinions of a couch scientist who actually knows nothing about the bike itself.

    Thanks.
    I don't think I've ever heard anything negative about the way the motolites ride be people who have actually ridden them. Most people absolutely love the suspension.

    The der. hanger? No idea, but I'd certainly rather have it break than the der.

    Dave

  3. #3
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    #1 is a new one on me. I've never heard or experienced that.

    #2 Yea, there's a guy that goes by Steve from JH who might be an engineer. He and other propeller heads debate bike suspension all the time. He's never even ridden the MotoLite. Apparently, he's basing is OPINION based solely only his analysis using some bike linkage software.

    I'm sure he's a smart guy, but he's a bit a Troll and bad-mouths a lot of bikes. He rides an Ellsworth ID, which has been disparaged as being awkward, and is no long being made. I'm sure the ID must look really good on the linkage software, but the real world application is what really matters. Whafe, anything to offer?

    The other guy who talks a lot about linkage is a guy named Derby, and he has actually demoed the MotoLite and really liked it.

    Check out this thread

  4. #4
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    I don't know if I would call the RD hanger flimsy, but there have been a few people who have bent their RD hanger. If you are riding technical rocky terrain there is a greater chance of bending a RD hanger. I do not view the RD hanger as a problem.

    I have never heard anything regarding the inefficiency of the ML suspension. I have ridden alot of different bikes and the ML as well as the Racer X 100 suspension works great!

  5. #5
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    Hanger upgrade

    Titus revamped the derailleur hanger this year to be more resistant to breakage, but still ready to sacrifice itself to save the frame/derailleur.
    Good time to pick up a spare.

  6. #6
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    Well then

    As far as point one goes, yes I have bent a few aluminum Der hangers without even crashing. Right now I have a stainless steel one on there and havent had any problems. I know the stainless one is questionable due to possible dropout damage if I ever did crash, but I have crashed once in the last five years, so I will take my chances. I even went as far as putting a "Hanger Banger" on there, but I took it off after I flatted on the trail and it was a royal pain taking the wheel off.
    As far as point two goes, my opinion would be that if the suspension design isnt utilizing the Horst Link design to its fullest, then Titus should redesign the bike without the HL and quit paying on the FSR patent to the big "S", because the design works beautifully.

  7. #7
    FM
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    Both are total crap points imho.

    the hanger is fine, I have yet to break one. It's the same hanger as I had on my switchblade which I owned for 2 years, it's a good design. Much better than turners' imho, as it uses 5mm bolts instead of easy to strip smaller screws.

    As for the suspension design.... what?

  8. #8
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    The hanger is the same one Titus has been using on thousands of bike over the years. The aluminum version has been "improved" recently. I haven't tried the latest revision. I rode the stainless steel hanger for a couple years and it worked great.

    Don't believe everything you read on the internet (including this post). The geometry numbers do look a little funky on paper but the bike rides fantastic. I don't know if it's the right bike for you but it's definitely worth of consideration. Almost all of the high-end bikes ride well so fit should be your primary focus. So find a demo and form your own opinion.

    Now make a wish. If you forward this thread to 10 of your friends, it will come true.
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  9. #9
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    As a motolite owner i feel that i am qualitifed to answer this one. My hanger has been fine, although my riding buddy who has a RX has had two break and they are the same hanger.

    As for the second point again this is correct. On a bike like an original spcalized FSR the upper link had the affect of counter roating the seat stays compared to the motion of the chainstay. this meant that the axle path was more vertical.

    On the moto lite this is not the case as though the travel the top link pulls the seatstay forards and back meaning that the hub axle goes forards as well. The axle path of the moto lite is very similar to a single pivot, but since the horst link is there there is less pedal feedback.

    Saying all this it sill rides great and thats all that matter really.

    Stuart

  10. #10
    "El Whatever"
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    I have the same hanger on my Blade, and so far-so good. I have one spare for when necessity arises, but I have never damaged a hanger.

    On point two... yeah, it will not act like a true FSR, but that's not bad news.

    See, the wheelpath is slightly different... it's a nice wheelpath where the wheel has nice bump absortion on the initial part of the travel and then directs towards the rider for mistake proof handling by keeping your weight centered over the bike without changing the weight bias drastically deep into the stroke.

    While it has a bit more brake feedback than an FSR or ICT, it's not a bad thing, really.

    See... I came off a Giant Warp (crappy mid-monopivot). Then I got onto the Blade (true HL-FSR). My first descents on the Blade were scary precisely because the FSR does not squat under braking. The suspension is relatively unaffected by braking and this causes more forwards weight bias.

    The Warp had brake-squat... and when facing a steep descent, this is something good. While you sacrifice braking traction, your weight bias doesn't gets affected much by weight shifting due to inertia.

    ICT type suspensions (Pre-TNT Turners, Ellsworths) almost have brake jack. Not caused by the suspension itself, but by the weight shifting and the very little brake squat (your bike tries to pivot around a point in front of the front axle).

    For an aggressive use (like the ML is intended), I'd prefer some brake squat to keep the bike from pitching forwards while braking. BTW... deeper into travel, the ML works more like a true horst (as the Instant Center moves towards the front of the bike). True HL's do the opposite.

    BTW... the most highly regarded suspension systems today (DW-Link, Marin QUAD, FSR) all have instant centers at some point between the BB and the front axle. Only Ellsworth is left with the ICT which has instant centers forwards the front axle.

    Steve insists that he loves that... but IMHO, despite all the calculations and his praising of this system, a bike with an Instant Center that forwards would feel not as good as some bike that has the IC between the BB and the Front Axle.... I mean, do you like a bike that pitches forwards under rear-only braking on steep descents where you use mostly the rear brake? I don't.
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  11. #11
    wg
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Both are total crap points imho.

    the hanger is fine, I have yet to break one. It's the same hanger as I had on my switchblade which I owned for 2 years, it's a good design. Much better than turners' imho, as it uses 5mm bolts instead of easy to strip smaller screws.

    As for the suspension design.... what?
    I've gone through two on my Switch over the years and I believe Titus uses the same hanger on all their bikes.
    I always keep a spare hanger in the tool kits and on longer rides take it with me. The reason mine died was hard impact. The hanger bent and derailure didn't nor did the frame. Much cheaper part to replace so it did its job. I've also had them rebent back by the LBS a couple times when shifting issues were traced back to a minor bend. Again, it did its job vs. loosing something costing more $$.

    I don't know squat about the ML except its a nice bike and lotsa ppl dig 'em so .....
    Don't harsh my mello

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by smh151

    On the moto lite this is not the case as though the travel the top link pulls the seatstay forards and back meaning that the hub axle goes forards as well.
    yeah I here U, a sound point. but I think the rate link ( top link) is so short, in comparison to the other link ( swingarm), that this aspect doesn't matter much. seems it would make more of a deal it the rate link was longer. don' t you think? And taking a stroll down memory lane….. the original horst ( AMP) didn't have a rate link. I think the suspension geometry on the ML and RX are not that much fundamentally different then the mac strut AMP type suspension. Which is good in my mind. Sure the rate link moves the seat stay link down maybe almost a quarter inch, but the wheel moves 5 inches and the chain stay moves 2 inches forward..

  13. #13
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    In fact the ML has a more rearward-compressing path than the 5-Spot while travel is above sag and likely slightly more rearward at sag depending on sag depth than the ICT (monopivot-like) path of the 5-Spot.

    The Specialized FSR path is as you say is nearly all forward curving in path. (Don't understand how either relate very closely to a Dakar except in '02(?)). But a more original Horst link positioning of the pivots such as the ML produce a tighter radius curving path near sag which is more rearward compressing than FSR near the top of travel.

    I demoed a ML and it is remarkably snappy pedaling and just as bump compliant if not better due to less damping required compared to ICT or monopivot 5-Spot. Classic Horst link designs are softer in the seat compliance although snappier pedaling than ICT or equivalent monopivot pedaling design due to the faster (softer) damping and greater pedaling anti-squat. I prefer more aggressive anti-squat suspension geometry with very free bump compliance such as a real Horst link geometry rather than the more firm damper dependant monopivot-like ICT ride of the 5-Spot. But many others prefer firmer damping. I would buy a ML before a 5-Spot.

    S'all good. Have fun. The ride is what matters.



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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dulyebr
    #1 is a new one on me. I've never heard or experienced that.

    #2 Yea, there's a guy that goes by Steve from JH who might be an engineer. He and other propeller heads debate bike suspension all the time. He's never even ridden the MotoLite. Apparently, he's basing is OPINION based solely only his analysis using some bike linkage software.

    I'm sure he's a smart guy, but he's a bit a Troll and bad-mouths a lot of bikes. He rides an Ellsworth ID, which has been disparaged as being awkward, and is no long being made. I'm sure the ID must look really good on the linkage software, but the real world application is what really matters. Whafe, anything to offer?

    The other guy who talks a lot about linkage is a guy named Derby, and he has actually demoed the MotoLite and really liked it.

    Check out this thread
    A very interesting one to say the least, Steve from JH is a very bright cookie for sure. I mean that as a compliment to him too. His comments I know will be all in theory, with no practical methodology to it. I will not argue the point from a theory type CAD program, that is not a subject I am up with, many topics I am, but sadly thats not one..........

    To say this though:
    The design of the Motolite suspension actually make the Horst link a waste of time as the angle of the rocker arm and the shock do not allow the linkage to work efficiently. to me is a crazy comment.

    From a practical point of view, I have owned a severly BLING Id & now own a severly bling MotoLite. I dont mean this arrogantly, I am fortuante enough to work hard and feed money to my passion.

    Both bikes are fantastic to ride, the Id is super efficient and fast. In saying that, I truly feel my AM1 made the bike that much better, it slackened the HA, which helped hugely. I would also say the Id is not a beginner riders bike, it is a technical bike to ride in my opinion, high BB is terrible to some, but to some like myself I loved it. The sus is superb on really slow rough steep up hills, the traction is fantastic. Decends really well. I was not at all unhappy about the bike.

    I wanted a change, along came the ML. This bike is pure fun, climbs fantastic, does nto feel like it has 5 inches of travel at all, but does. Decends like a mother F er. It is hard for me to describe it. You see it is a Ti / carbon frame, great ridign characteristics also have a great rigid wheelset that helps hugely. I really need to ride an Ali MotoLite. Sh!t am rambling.

    Bottom line, when I was looking for a new bike, I could not find a bad review on the MotoLite, someone will spite me here, but you know the score very little negative press about this frame. I ourchased my bike with never seeing a ML in the flesh, let alone an ExoGrid one. I had a huge amount of help from this board and from Titus, and know, not a once did I speak with CC, but his other staff were fantastic..........

    The ML would suit more riders than the Id would for sure. Same as why so many like the 5 Spot. A great frame and ride, simple to ride fast.

    So all in all, I dont agree with the comment hands down, I have spent a good amount of time on both bikes, I know more practically (arrogant B Stard...LOL)

    YOU DECIDE, Which is the best horst link design bike. Just ride our bikes and get busy on it....... YEAH HA,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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    in fact, the way most standard four bar / horst link bikes are designed, the only thing that really sets them apart from non horst link / single pivot bikes is braking behaviour.

    please note i am not commenting on whether that is a negative or positve offset, as everyone needs to find out for himself whatever he likes best (by riding). many people also comment that on the trail that difference is irrelevant anyways.

    as for the specific titus application, the difference in braking behaviour should at best be marginally different from a non horst link / single pivot bike.

    accordingly it would be possible to build a single pivot bike (provided that geometry, weight, spring rate, progression, ... would all be the same) which should ride practically identical to the titus.

    so there actually is a point to the second argument, even though i don't agree with the (negative) wording that has been choosen to illustrate those circumstances.

    in the end, it is the particular implementation of a specific bike, that makes that bike worth riding or not. for sure there are four bars out there that ride awesome, the same applying to single pivots. it's up to everyone to find out himself.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by igorion
    in fact, the way most standard four bar / horst link bikes are designed, the only thing that really sets them apart from non horst link / single pivot bikes is braking behaviour.

    please note i am not commenting on whether that is a negative or positve offset, as everyone needs to find out for himself whatever he likes best (by riding). many people also comment that on the trail that difference is irrelevant anyways.

    as for the specific titus application, the difference in braking behaviour should at best be marginally different from a non horst link / single pivot bike.

    accordingly it would be possible to build a single pivot bike (provided that geometry, weight, spring rate, progression, ... would all be the same) which should ride practically identical to the titus.

    so there actually is a point to the second argument, even though i don't agree with the (negative) wording that has been choosen to illustrate those circumstances.

    in the end, it is the particular implementation of a specific bike, that makes that bike worth riding or not. for sure there are four bars out there that ride awesome, the same applying to single pivots. it's up to everyone to find out himself.


    So again, I guess Titus just kinda likes makig donations to Specialized. It's like kindness?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    So again, I guess Titus just kinda likes makig donations to Specialized. It's like kindness?
    I honestly wonder how long that's going to last under Pat Hus, who has been known to change lots of things around. Furthermore, Specialized doesn't like to license to big coorporations that could potentially compete. I also read, but could be wrong, the agreement for the license was with Chris and the owner of Specialized. Wonder what it will be without.

  18. #18
    thats right living legend
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    Nice Speculation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I honestly wonder how long that's going to last under Pat Hus, who has been known to change lots of things around. Furthermore, Specialized doesn't like to license to big coorporations that could potentially compete. I also read, but could be wrong, the agreement for the license was with Chris and the owner of Specialized. Wonder what it will be without.


    As long as we're making "blinde" speculations, I wonder how much longer Turner will continue to be made in the USA. Hmmmm seems like I read somewhere in some Brit mag he might be open to the posability??? Mabye not? Just thought I'd put that out there...

  19. #19
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    DING DING DING! THE TITUS POLICE ARE IN FULL FORCE!!!


    Gosh, the Titus board fanatics are just plain dumb and not open to any type of dialog, constructive or not. So long as they cover their asses with lies, such as the ones you and demo have been spreading for months here.

    Stop being so wrapped up in the brand of bike you guys ride. Perhaps you can just simply ride more and not worry about the back office politics and worry about whether there's a Titus you like when you're ready to buy again.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    As long as we're making "blinde" speculations, I wonder how much longer Turner will continue to be made in the USA. Hmmmm seems like I read somewhere in some Brit mag he might be open to the posability??? Mabye not? Just thought I'd put that out there...
    Very possible. Remember this famous pre-TNT quote:

    "There is a reason that I pay Specialized, proper positioning of the Horst link is the best way to build a bicycle rear suspension."

    David Turner 07/2004

    Change happens across the board, for better or worse. We shall see.

  21. #21
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    Geez...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    DING DING DING! THE TITUS POLICE ARE IN FULL FORCE!!!


    Gosh, the Titus board fanatics are just plain dumb and not open to any type of dialog, constructive or not. So long as they cover their asses with lies, such as the ones you and demo have been spreading for months here.

    Stop being so wrapped up in the brand of bike you guys ride. Perhaps you can just simply ride more and not worry about the back office politics and worry about whether there's a Titus you like when you're ready to buy again.

    What's your problem? You come over here, clearly trolling and act all surprised when people take offense?

    I really didn't see that much defensiveness. Certainly nothing compared to how you react when somebody possibly questions something about a Turner.

    Dave

  22. #22
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    I wasn't trolling.

    I can post here with my thoughts when I see fit.

    But I do enjoy the shock and awe reaction of the Titus zealots.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    But I do enjoy the shock and awe reaction of the Titus zealots.
    Isn't that trolling?

    Is like if I'd pinch you at you at the ribs and would enjoy your pain. I would have done nothing I could be really punished for, but that doesn't take your bad reaction about it and it would be understandable.

    Or like Whafe once said it... like going to a lady's funeral and tell the husband you got laid with her.
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    Nice spin, warp. You could be more sensible. Anyone posts anything on the Titus board that can be spun, it is. I try to post something as an addition to the thread and it gets spun, which is fine, but at the same time, I can enjoy the reaction I didn't intend to get. I do know now it is typical of the Titus board, however.

    I do even enjoy seeing the reactions when others post and the Titus board jumps all over them. It's great!

  25. #25
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    LOL, here we are talkin about derailler hangers(throwaway part). Engineering debates over the horst linkage and its affects on ???????. And now conspiracy theories galore and speculation about the Rise and Fall of Titus.

    Makes me wonder what will happen when SAPA raises their prices for frame manufacturing in this ever increasing monetary world. Then you'll see all the backpedaling of all the trolls and haters of global economics. (oh wait did I just post another speculation???)lol

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    DING DING DING! THE TITUS POLICE ARE IN FULL FORCE!!!


    Gosh, the Titus board fanatics are just plain dumb and not open to any type of dialog, constructive or not.
    Chill out, jerk! As far as I can tell, no one was disagreeing with you (or dissing your beloved Turners) in any way. Where is this reaction coming from? The 5-spot comparison is relevant since it's a bike that received accolades based on its Horst link design, and recently, to great controversy, has had that link eliminated. Most people seem to think this hasn't made a difference to the TNT's ride, which I think is really interesting. However, others, such as Ray (I think this is "Derby," if I'm not mistaken), still prefer the true Horst-link Titus design over the ICT Spot, which suggests that the comparison may not be so useful. It suggests that you couldn't remove the ML's Horst link so easily without affecting the ride significantly. It seems like Dubleyr was just providing this info for mikey74 to help with the original post/question, not to slam the 5Spot.

    You accuse regular posters here of refusing to engage in constructive dialog, but congratulating yourself when your assinine overreactions get people's hackles up certainly doesn't help much. When you make deliberately inflammatory comments, of course people are going to get pissed off; it's really not that much of an achievement. Do people tolerate that behavior over on the Turner board? No, I didn't think so....

  27. #27
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    I do find it funny that you have nothing to contribute to this thread apart from aggravation, a strange life you must lead.

    I agree get out and ride more, maybe you should do the same, im sure this will be followed with i ride so many more miles than you .....

    directed at jerk, not you titus zealots

  28. #28
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    Looky here at Jerk douchbag, telling us to leave the office polatics out, or whatever he was saying. If I recall this was a thread about D hangers and susp linkages, as Ti was saying. Then Jerek douchbag comes on here talking about Pat hues, and HL patents....Whaaa????

    Brilliant as alway's!!!!!!

  29. #29
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    ML worthy of a praise??

    The ML, for what ever reason, rips up and down. For what it’s worth, I’ve toasted two derailleur hangers on my ML in two seasons. Pedaling performance and climbing prowess is unmatched in the 5 inch travel bike category. The more phocked-up the trail gets the more I like my ML. Ridden similarly set-up fully’s (most notably a classic Blur and a ICT 5-spot) on same trails and ML is just better. Like pedaling forces, braking forces are totally and completely decoupled from suspension. No surprises when you need to lay on the stoppers as most ML owners will testify. Frankly, the ML is the most capable yet benign XC mountain bike I’ve ridden in 22 years of MTbiking. I’m very much enjoying my second season on the ML.

    If that little horst link on my ML is the biggest reason for such a great all round bike … then great… if not… then great. BTW…. I’m no “Homer” as my criticism have been well documented here.

    As far as fit goes, it’s a non-issue, but some will insist it is. This is “the” lamest excuse for not considering the ML given infinite permutations and limitless combinations of seat-tubes, stems, and handle bars. When “fit” is an issue, I suspect, more than not, is a “perception” that doesn’t fit… not the bike…. MTBikers are fickle people… myself included.

    The posts by JC rings of sour grapes… each one of his posts on this thread is trollish. He’s suffering from “Horst Envy” as most Homers are… even though they will deny this until death and defend DTs rendition of a Kona (now watch the response to this harmless jab). All I know is this, haven’t had the pleasure of riding, umm, umm (clearing throat) a Turner faux bar yet, but two years ago I demo’d a ICT turner 5-spot….. once.
    Regards,

    EndUser
    Last edited by EndUser; 07-21-2006 at 03:32 PM.
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  30. #30
    thats right living legend
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    Nicely Done!

    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    The ML, for what ever reason, rips up and down. For what it’s worth, I’ve toasted two derailleur hangers on my ML in two seasons. Pedaling performance and climbing prowess is unmatched in the 5 inch travel bike category. The more phocked-up the trail gets the more I like my ML. Ridden similarly set-up fully’s (most notably a classic Blur and a ICT 5-spot) on same trails and ML is just better. Like pedaling forces, braking forces are totally and completely decoupled from suspension. No surprises when you need to lay on the stoppers as most ML owners will testify. Frankly, the ML is the most capable yet benign XC mountain bike I’ve ridden in 22 years of MTbiking. I’m very much enjoying my second season on the ML.

    If that little horst link on my ML is the biggest reason for such a great all round bike … then great… if not… then great. BTW…. I’m no “Homer” as my criticism have been well documented here.

    As far as fit goes, it’s a non-issue, but some will insist it is. This is “the” lamest excuse for not considering the ML given infinite permutations and limitless combinations of seat-tubes, stems, and handle bars. When “fit” is an issue, I suspect, more than not, is a “perception” that doesn’t fit… not the bike…. MTBikers are fickle people… myself included.

    The posts by JC rings of sour grapes… each one of his posts on this thread is trollish. He’s suffering from “Horst Envy” as most Homers are… even though they will deny this until death and defend DTs rendition of a Kona (now watch the response to this harmless jab). All I know is this, haven’t had the pleasure of riding, umm, umm (clearing throat) a Turner faux bar yet, but two years ago I demo’d a ICT turner 5-spot….. once.
    Regards,

    EndUser


    As alway's EndUser, well put, and nicely written...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    As long as we're making "blinde" speculations, I wonder how much longer Turner will continue to be made in the USA. Hmmmm seems like I read somewhere in some Brit mag he might be open to the posability??? Mabye not? Just thought I'd put that out there...

    hey, if turner can bring the cost of their frames to under 1900 bucks i don't give a crap where they're made, i just want one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    As long as we're making "blinde" speculations, I wonder how much longer Turner will continue to be made in the USA. Hmmmm seems like I read somewhere in some Brit mag he might be open to the posability??? Mabye not? Just thought I'd put that out there...
    DT will be discussing this feverishly at every monthly meeting. The pro's the con's etc of moving some manufacturing overseas, its a time thing, only time really.

    DT's quote below, was sorted by himself though in fairness.]

    "There is a reason that I pay Specialized, proper positioning of the Horst link is the best way to build a bicycle rear suspension."

    David Turner 07/2004


    I wonder how faithful the Homers would be then. Hopefully not too different.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    As alway's EndUser, well put, and nicely written...
    There are three versions of derailluer hangers that I know of. There is the old aluminum one that weighs seven grams and is pretty soft. The new aluminum hanger weighs 15 grams and is said to be stronger. There is also the stainless steel version that weighs 35 grams. The stainless hanger is strong enough to bend the backing plate on the dropout. My wife bent hers almost to the point of having to order a new seatstay(I don't even want to know what one costs.) A little carefull bending and our trip was saved. The only issue I have with the ML is the low quality powder coating on the 05's. At least the pink. I hope it's more durable this year.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  34. #34
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    Jerk Chicken

    Jerk Chicken, go home, nobody likes or wants you here!

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    JC actually raises a good point - I have wondered the same thing - how long will Titus have rights to the Horst Link . . . hopefully this will never be an issue.

  36. #36
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    So, are we back to talking about Titus bikes or are we still throwing conspiracy theories and innuendo here????


    Geez, we need to stop thinking and go ride more, especially if we're using our Titus's

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr
    Jerk Chicken, go home, nobody likes or wants you here!
    Please, go back to riding a bit more. I have no problems staying around here and posting. Mtbr is fun, including the Titus board that was ruined by its own posters. NooB's can't even get accurate info because the posters here tell everyone what they want to hear, as opposed to facts.

    BTW- I like the attention I get with one post. You guys turn it into a thread about me and derail it yourselves. Get some lives. I am a guy that rides a bike and enjoys bicycling. You should try bicycling, too. It's fun.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    So again, I guess Titus just kinda likes makig donations to Specialized. It's like kindness?

    In the past i have talked to engineers from several bicycle manfacturers personally. the stories i have heard about suspension theory in those conversations differ significantly.
    significantly means entirely different stories (not only aspects), all the way to "i will tell you this, but please don't pass it on to XXX, because they have been too stupid to find it out by themselves so far".
    if one person says "you are wrong, i am right" and the other person does the same thing vice versa, at least one of them has to be wrong, if not both. concluding from that, i'd say the theories of at least 50% of the people designing bicycles suspension are simply wrong!

    that does not mean these people are building bad bikes since there is so much more to a bike than suspension theory. and luckily bikes are not shot into space as a first and final test, but you can sit down and ride them before they go into production, so they might turn out to be awesome, even though the concept was wrong in the first place. i don't want to apply this statement to titus or ony other specific manufacturer.

    the point i want to make is that just because a person is actually building bikes, maybe even for your favorite manufacturer, doesn't autmatically make him omniscient.

    i hope you (blackagness) dont take offense in my posting. i am well aware that i could also be my own opinion that falls within the 50% mentioned above. i just wanted to make clear that the fact that titus is paying royalties to specialized doesn't automatically translate to their suspension layout being superior. there has been so much misinformation on fsr also (quote "vertical wheel path") that the presence of a horst link alone simply does not mean anything without judging the rest of the bike also, and especially, without riding it.

    and please let me make clear: i have not ridden a titus and i don't want to make any statement about the quality of their bikes or suspension specifically.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by igorion
    In the past i have talked to engineers from several bicycle manfacturers personally. the stories i have heard about suspension theory in those conversations differ significantly.
    significantly means entirely different stories (not only aspects), all the way to "i will tell you this, but please don't pass it on to XXX, because they have been too stupid to find it out by themselves so far".
    if one person says "you are wrong, i am right" and the other person does the same thing vice versa, at least one of them has to be wrong, if not both. concluding from that, i'd say the theories of at least 50% of the people designing bicycles suspension are simply wrong!

    that does not mean these people are building bad bikes since there is so much more to a bike than suspension theory. and luckily bikes are not shot into space as a first and final test, but you can sit down and ride them before they go into production, so they might turn out to be awesome, even though the concept was wrong in the first place. i don't want to apply this statement to titus or ony other specific manufacturer.

    the point i want to make is that just because a person is actually building bikes, maybe even for your favorite manufacturer, doesn't autmatically make him omniscient.

    i hope you (blackagness) dont take offense in my posting. i am well aware that i could also be my own opinion that falls within the 50% mentioned above. i just wanted to make clear that the fact that titus is paying royalties to specialized doesn't automatically translate to their suspension layout being superior. there has been so much misinformation on fsr also (quote "vertical wheel path") that the presence of a horst link alone simply does not mean anything without judging the rest of the bike also, and especially, without riding it.

    and please let me make clear: i have not ridden a titus and i don't want to make any statement about the quality of their bikes or suspension specifically.

    No offense taken, and I could be off with "my" next statment. But It seems to me the fairly vast majority of Eropean manufacturers where the HL patent does not apply, primarly go for a HL. Guess there must be something to it...

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    But It seems to me the fairly vast majority of Eropean manufacturers where the HL patent does not apply, primarly go for a HL. Guess there must be something to it...
    That seriously can mean squat, Blackey.

    With my riding buddies we've come to the conclusion that at this level of bikes, fit and geometry can mean much more than suspension design. Hell, even tyre pressure is more critical to the riding characteristics of a bike than pure suspension. Shock settings are a big factor too.

    Off from those Euro companies using the HL, many of those bike will ride like crap.

    If you see the geometries of Turners and Titus, they look somewhat wrong on paper. Turners looking too long and Titus looking too high at BB and too slack seat tube... however, when you throw a leg on them, they're maybe the best bikes you've ever ridden.

    I think there's more to it than pure suspension design.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    That seriously can mean squat, Blackey.

    With my riding buddies we've come to the conclusion that at this level of bikes, fit and geometry can mean much more than suspension design. Hell, even tyre pressure is more critical to the riding characteristics of a bike than pure suspension. Shock settings are a big factor too.

    Off from those Euro companies using the HL, many of those bike will ride like crap.

    If you see the geometries of Turners and Titus, they look somewhat wrong on paper. Turners looking too long and Titus looking too high at BB and too slack seat tube... however, when you throw a leg on them, they're maybe the best bikes you've ever ridden.

    I think there's more to it than pure suspension design.
    Some woman are like that really. The ones that can look perfectly designed are a terrible ride, some others that the geo is not 100% are magnificent rides.. Not getting down and dirty, but it is very similar to me...................

    By the way, was so glad Floyd won the tour, yeah ha
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    That seriously can mean squat, Blackey.

    With my riding buddies we've come to the conclusion that at this level of bikes, fit and geometry can mean much more than suspension design. Hell, even tyre pressure is more critical to the riding characteristics of a bike than pure suspension. Shock settings are a big factor too.

    Off from those Euro companies using the HL, many of those bike will ride like crap.

    If you see the geometries of Turners and Titus, they look somewhat wrong on paper. Turners looking too long and Titus looking too high at BB and too slack seat tube... however, when you throw a leg on them, they're maybe the best bikes you've ever ridden.

    I think there's more to it than pure suspension design.


    I've ridden vpp and many single pivot I liked most of them, but the first time I jumped on a HL bike I was amazed at the ability to pedal through the rough, and decend while braking over stutter bumps without feeling hardly anything... That may mean (squat) to "you" but for my exp it means quit alot, wich in the end is all I can speak to.

    I'm no big Horst advocate either. There are plenty of people who've tested both and opted for another design. In the end I believe a good bike is a good bike, and susp design may not be the only factor, or even the most important, but IMO it is a factor none the less.

    If for example if I were to buy a Turner it wouldn't matter to me wether it was TNT or HL. Because I happen to believe they make some of the best bikes, in fact my second favorite... but by a fairly wide margen.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    I've ridden vpp and many single pivot I liked most of them, but the first time I jumped on a HL bike I was amazed at the ability to pedal through the rough, and decend while braking over stutter bumps without feeling hardly anything... That may mean (squat) to "you" but for my exp it means quit alot, wich in the end is all I can speak to.

    I'm no big Horst advocate either. There are plenty of people who've tested both and opted for another design. In the end I believe a good bike is a good bike, and susp design may not be the only factor, or even the most important, but IMO it is a factor none the less.

    If for example if I were to buy a Turner it wouldn't matter to me wether it was TNT or HL. Because I happen to believe they make some of the best bikes, in fact my second favorite... but by a fairly wide margen.
    Not all horst links are the same. Try one of the older Jamis Dakars, for one. You wouldn't even know the benefits of the HL there. Most of the riding characteristics of a bike is based on the geomtry, layout of the linkages, and the shock. The HL is only a small piece of that. The HL also removes some rigidity, so a company that doesn't beef its frames up, putting the premium on stiffness will not have as good a riding bike as one that simply has some stiffness added into the equation. Don't forget our HL equipped GT LTS and RTS. The former would jack like no tomorrow during braking.

    I have always been an HL detractor, even before I bought into Turner because I've ridden and owned bikes where the suspension simply worked and I couldn't tell the difference, except for maybe I didn't like how "S" bikes rode.

  44. #44
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    Back to the orignal topic, sort of... The only downside I've found on my new 06 motolite is that the paint chips awefully easily. My Spec Enduro endured many worse flying rocks without a scratch-- but the motolite, without ever actually crashing on rocks, is still full of chips and scratches from small rocks getting thrown from the tires.

    But in the big scheme of things, that's a fairly minor problem...
    功夫大师喜欢骑着他的自行车在山上。

  45. #45
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    I used to be a HL whore...

    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    I've ridden vpp and many single pivot I liked most of them, but the first time I jumped on a HL bike I was amazed at the ability to pedal through the rough, and decend while braking over stutter bumps without feeling hardly anything... That may mean (squat) to "you" but for my exp it means quit alot, wich in the end is all I can speak to.

    I'm no big Horst advocate either. There are plenty of people who've tested both and opted for another design. In the end I believe a good bike is a good bike, and susp design may not be the only factor, or even the most important, but IMO it is a factor none the less.

    If for example if I were to buy a Turner it wouldn't matter to me wether it was TNT or HL. Because I happen to believe they make some of the best bikes, in fact my second favorite... but by a fairly wide margen.
    It was with great trepidation that I went from a HL XCE to a TNT Turner. I expected (almost _wanted_) to find a difference in the ride, but in the end I simply couldn't tell. I was cleaning everything I was cleaning before, and ripping downhill better because of the more DH oriented geometry.

    So, like other posters said, I think the execution/geometry is much more important than the HL or seat-stay pivot argument. Titus bikes are simply some of the best out there, and it comes across in the ride.

    I think the manufacturers in europe build HL bikes because people think they are better, and that helps them sell bikes. Perception is important.

    The moto-lite was my second choice when considering the 5-spot. If I had come to the conclusion that the HL made any difference what-so-ever in the ride, I was planning on selling the spot and getting the ML. Luckily for my wallet that wasn't the case

    Dave

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    Heh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Please, go back to riding a bit more. I have no problems staying around here and posting. Mtbr is fun, including the Titus board that was ruined by its own posters. NooB's can't even get accurate info because the posters here tell everyone what they want to hear, as opposed to facts.

    BTW- I like the attention I get with one post. You guys turn it into a thread about me and derail it yourselves. Get some lives. I am a guy that rides a bike and enjoys bicycling. You should try bicycling, too. It's fun.

    I can't believe a guy w/ 2000 posts is telling someone to get a life and ride more. Quite ironic. Nothing personal Jerk, but you're obviously a troll, and are guilty on the Turner board of all of the behaviours you ascribe to the posters here.

    Dave

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    OMG!!!

    The "Look at your post count" reply!!! It's back!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    OMG!!!

    The "Look at your post count" reply!!! It's back!


    Good One!!!

  49. #49
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    This quote from the Turner board sums it up:

    My TNT experience
    <HR style="COLOR: #b7b7b7" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Being a Horst-link believer for so long, and that being a major reason for the purchase of my 5 spot, I was quite saddened when the news of TNT broke. Slowly the speculation gave way to reviews by many Homers whose opinions I have come to respect over the past couple of years. I began to come around in my thinking. Maybe the HL was all just marketing BS, after all the world is full of it.

    I had to find out for myself.

    My review-

    I won't go into too much detail on the many areas that my experience paralleled that of the previous reviewers.

    Braking- Noticeable lack of extension in the rear when braking only with the rear brake, at first I thought it was squat but after watching the shock I found it wasn't compressing. This did indeed give a stablizing feel, if traction was affected I couldn't feel it.

    Cornering- Stiffer rear end, despite the argument of others, I do not attribute this to the TNT rear being new and the HL old. When braking into a corner the bike felt more balanced front to rear, I'm guessing this is because of the lesser amount of extension in the rear. I can't say for sure what the reason, but the TNT felt better in the corners than the HL did.

    Pedaling- A firmer feel on the TNT, maybe less compliant would be a better description. After returning to the HL after three weeks on TNT, the HL felt smoother on small bumps. I think the TNT may pedal better while standing and mashing but I can't say for sure.

    Now there was only one real test left to ease my worries about the prospect on my HL being replaced with TNT.



    Steeper, looser, and longer than it looks in this photogragh, this section of tight singletrack is unforgiving when it comes to traction, front end lifting, and if even for a second you lose your line.

    Whenever I make changes to my ride, stem length, new fork, saddle postion and so on, I use this hill to see what effects it will have on super steep loose climbs.Over the past year and a half I have gome from a 110mm stem down to a 50mm, 110 to 100, 100 to 90, 90 to 70, and finally 70 to 50. Each stem change significantly changed the body position required to make this climb. The same held true for the switch from the Vanilla to the Marzocchi, the slacker head angle really made me work to get up this hill. But with every change if I just gave everything I had and stayed forward the rear end would hook up flawlessly and I'd power up it. Only on one occasion did I have to make a second attempt to clean the hill, this was after the 70 to 50mm stem length change, which I guess just caught me off guard. Bottom line, if I can still climb this hill with TNT, then all is good.

    On the first day attempting this hill with the TNT rear I failed 14 of 14 tries. I was crushed, and exhausted. I drove home after the beat down wondering what the hell could have been wrong.

    Two days later I went back, angry. That f-ing hill was mine.

    Nope, 8 tries and 8 failures.

    Every possible adjustment was made to make it up with the TNT rear, shock settings, pressures, body position, full out mashing on the pedals, steady cadence, you name it.

    My conclusion as to the reason for failure; I was unable to keep the front end down and maintain traction at the same time. Was the rear squatting under power? It felt like it. Did the rear end hook up as well as the HL? No.

    I went back the next day after reinstalling the HL rear and made it up on the first try usual.

    I'm sure that by making adjustments to my ride that I could make it up with the TNT rear, but those adjustments would surely have a negative effect on descending.

    I'd be very interested to hear other Homer's experiences in similar conditions. Basically find a super steep and loose granny gear climb, and see if you too can't feel a difference in favor of the HL.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightySchmoePong
    ...
    I think the manufacturers in europe build HL bikes because people think they are better, and that helps them sell bikes. Perception is important.
    ...
    Last year i was talking to the CEO of a european bike manufacturer after a presentation of my software. when he was showing me drawings of the 4-bar bikes they would show at the tradeshow that fall, this was the exact reason i was told for them switching to 4-bar: "people want 4-bars, not single pivots".

    still, there's many european manufacturers that are building awesome bikes, 4-bar or not.

  51. #51
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    Amazing climb & photo

    Looks very loose and steep.
    Impressive!.
    GB

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dulyebr
    My TNT experience



    On the first day attempting this hill with the TNT rear I failed 14 of 14 tries. I was crushed, and exhausted. I drove home after the beat down wondering what the hell could have been wrong.

    Two days later I went back, angry. That f-ing hill was mine.

    Nope, 8 tries and 8 failures.

    Every possible adjustment was made to make it up with the TNT rear, shock settings, pressures, body position, full out mashing on the pedals, steady cadence, you name it.

    I went back the next day after reinstalling the HL rear and made it up on the first try usual.

    I'd be very interested to hear other Homer's experiences in similar conditions. Basically find a super steep and loose granny gear climb, and see if you too can't feel a difference in favor of the HL.
    This was a very interesting post back then. It is a very informative writing. So many homers have said no difference at all, its all BS that it is worse than the HL. The position is such a minute move it wont effect it.... After reading this post again, it seems that it has effected things somewhat. Although to many not being able to climb this may well not be an issue............ A great post...................

    Jerk C, your thoughts on this?
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    This was a very interesting post back then. It is a very informative writing. So many homers have said no difference at all, its all BS that it is worse than the HL. The position is such a minute move it wont effect it.... After reading this post again, it seems that it has effected things somewhat. Although to many not being able to climb this may well not be an issue............ A great post...................

    Jerk C, your thoughts on this?
    IMO there's more to it than just that one particurlar climb. Consider the OP's followup last week:

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN
    I did have a hard time coming to grips with the move to TNT, and I still believe that the Turner HL Spot will outclimb the TNT Spot at the extremes of traction as was the case in my testing. I don't want to go off on a tangent here but a while back I was thinking about the test I did and wondered whether rear end stiffness could hinder traction on a climb like the one I used which is basically a big rut. Would a stiffer rear end be more likely to spin out as it walked up the side of the rut whereas a noodly rear might conform and keep the rear tire hooked up? I don't know, just a thought.

    If you recall during my test of HL vs. TNT I gave the advantage to TNT in all other areas aside from climbing, and frankly after riding TNT on my Spot I just haven't been as happy with the HL rear with regards to braking and cornering. I won't hesitate to buy a TNT Spot to replace my HL Spot when the time comes.

    Anyways, the HL Demo had it's chance. There was really nothing I liked about the bike aside from it's high speed straight-line stability. As has been said here before a Horst-link does not guarantee that the suspension will perform well.
    (BZ insert: He's talking about Spechy's Demo-8 he owned compared to his new TNT Turner Highline)

    Besides all that the Turner quality was really missed.
    When I say I think there's more to it I mean that the poster's climbing test was pretty particular in that no one else has yet posted a test under similar conditions. I don't disagree with his conclusions at all, I just haven't encountered such a climb and so far few others have posted they have either. If that was the kind of climb I would ride frequently then this would be very important to me. For me, the TNT's improvement in braking, handling and pedaling outweighed a traction issue I never encountered...thus I switched too. Under my conditions it actually climbs better because it squats less and I can stand and mash with more snap. But that is a BIKE SPECIFIC assessment...not a broad design theory analysis.

    I have to express my respect for the Titus fans for their efforts to differentiate between people's opinion and trail performance... I really like how you folks take individuals to task on their comments rather than heaping it on entire groups or brands. I think this is the point of the thread in that the theoretical analysis means little in absence of really riding the bike.

    Back on topic... Soft der hangers can be a pain. I've bent quite a few on my 5 Spot... then I got a Park DAG and it paid for itself rather quickly both in cost, stand time, and peace of mind! IMO I'd rather tweak a hanger than a dropout, and I always ride with a spare. I eventually got to the point where I haven't tweaked a hanger in a long time...knock on wood... of course now that I'd said that, I'll bust one on the next ride.

    As for the susp analysis... I agree with Warp (and others) You really have to take it on a bike by bike basis. All the speculation means little compared to the end product. There are plenty of HL that ride like crap and if FSR was the end-all-be-all The Spechy's woud be the best bikes available. The Turner HL vs TNT debate was probably the best apples to apples comparison anyone's going to see because many of the tests were on otherwise identical bikes. It's the reader's perogative to accecpt or dismiss the opinions or conclusions. The point is I wouldn't go abandoning Titus purely b/c of any potential or acutal change w/o time on the product first.

    Me outie!
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 07-24-2006 at 08:02 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    This was a very interesting post back then. It is a very informative writing. So many homers have said no difference at all, its all BS that it is worse than the HL. The position is such a minute move it wont effect it.... After reading this post again, it seems that it has effected things somewhat. Although to many not being able to climb this may well not be an issue............ A great post...................

    Jerk C, your thoughts on this?
    My thoughts?

    I have an RFX now and I'm making climbs on it I couldn't easily make on a Flux. I'm not puttnig all of that into TNT, but the overall design works very well and it hooks up like there's no tomorrow.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    I've ridden vpp and many single pivot I liked most of them, but the first time I jumped on a HL bike I was amazed at the ability to pedal through the rough, and decend while braking over stutter bumps without feeling hardly anything... That may mean (squat) to "you" but for my exp it means quit alot, wich in the end is all I can speak to.
    I don't have the experience you have on different suspension designs, Blackey. And I wasn't dismissing your comment on an unfounded basis.

    I have a friend that has three high end bikes... A HL Flux, a Spider and a ASR-SL. All of them very similar in travel and build.

    He's less happy with the HL Flux. And that by itself is a proof that a HL is the end of all suspension systems.

    Also, some people I know is leary to try out bikes with a DW-Link because the only brands that have this system are the Ironhorse's and the Independent Fabrication's... there's not a boutique manufacturer that would sell a high end frame (think Titus, Turner, Ventana). So you either go with a less reputated brand or have to mortgage your house to pay a bike with a DW_Link. God knows how this suspension system would be regarded if there was a boutique brand making bikes with it.

    Do I care if my bike has a HL? Hell yeah!!! I ride a bike with one!... but then, it's also made by one of the best manufacturers in the industry. There's more to it than only the HL. It's the geometry, the fit and its handling.
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    B Zilla & J Chicken, good posts. I agree with you, all rides are different. There are hills that I climb on the MotoLite that I felt I climbed better on the Id, and then also the other way around............

    I am blonde and not good on the techy theories, btu from a practical view point, when I ride a bike I gain an understanding how that bike handles.............. You could have what is deemed the best sus design ever, if the rest of the bike was set uo crap, the ride would be crap...............

    Both my Id and ML are fantastic bikes, I hear Osokolo is enjoying my Id, I sold him my frame, whipped it up to Canada for him, I hear he is loving it... I am at this point loving the ML.......

    Who knows what we will be riding in the future.

    You will chew my balls off though, but there are far more elitist views in the Turner area re Turner bikes than other areas, feel that is a fair comment. And it is fantastic to see so much Turner passion. In our sub con mind, this is to do with the great service, great guy DT etc etc etc, it is the brand at work, which hey is rocking........................And PLEASE, I have not made this comment to p i s s anyone off, it is an observation from Whafes POV...........

    Here here, lets ride hard........
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    You will chew my balls off though, but there are far more elitist views in the Turner area re Turner bikes than other areas, feel that is a fair comment.
    I got no problem with that assessment Whafe... Having read it many times before, there must be something to it... But hey, it's not like I'm riding carbon-Ti, then I'd really be insufferable .
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  58. #58
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    No joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    You will chew my balls off though, but there are far more elitist views in the Turner area re Turner bikes than other areas, feel that is a fair comment.
    I tell you, I'm really scared about what will happen when Turner finally releases the 29er version he's been promising. Mixing the two most fanatical/elitist groups on MTBR _cant_ be a good thing.

    Dave

    P.S. There are a few posters on the Titus board that are easily as bad as the worst of the Turner folks. Just not as many, and it's a much lower percentage of the actual posters.

  59. #59
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    Just wanted to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I got no problem with that assessment Whafe... Having read it many times before, there must be something to it... But hey, it's not like I'm riding carbon-Ti, then I'd really be insufferable .


    BZ I've prob read just about everything you've written on you're TNT vs HL review's, and I put you're opinion's and analsy's among the very top on these boards. There are a few posters, that when I see a post by them I consider it a must read "for myself", and you'rs are up there.
    Last edited by blackagness; 07-24-2006 at 09:13 AM.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightySchmoePong
    I tell you, I'm really scared about what will happen when Turner finally releases the 29er version he's been promising. Mixing the two most fanatical/elitist groups on MTBR _cant_ be a good thing.

    Dave

    P.S. There are a few posters on the Titus board that are easily as bad as the worst of the Turner folks. Just not as many, and it's a much lower percentage of the actual posters.

    If your referring to me then your dead wrong. I do not troll on other boards. If someone comes on this board, and makes a statment I find to be untrue I call them on it...Trolls are easly spotted.

    And when someone comes here and makes a negative comment about Titus, that I agree with I tell them so as well. It's happened many times.

  61. #61
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    Yeah, you're one...

    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    If your referring to me then your dead wrong. I do not troll on other boards. If someone comes on this board, and makes a statment I find to be untrue I call them on it...Trolls are easly spotted.

    And when someone comes here and makes a negative comment about Titus, that I agree with I tell them so as well. It's happened many times.
    but I wasn't referring to trolling... just in the rabid defense of everything Titus. The Turner trolls are definitely in a league of their own....

    Dave

  62. #62
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    Interesting topic and opinions.......

    Frame and suspension design theory analysis is a complex subject with a large number of variables that are often not fully considered in this type of discussion. A definitive broad theory analysis is virtually impossible because of the many intangible variables involved.

    As Bikesilla states, each of us can only make “a BIKE SPECIFIC assessment...” I would go further and add that this assessment is also specific to the one making the assessment.

    From my point of view and experience, every frame has a sweet spot relative to body positioning on the bike (seated or standing) that greatly influences how the bike handles up, down, slow, or at speed. The sweet spot is also influenced by the riders body type and weight, frame size, suspension set-up, shock and fork type, and saddle height, stem length and height, etc.

    With some frames/suspension designs the sweet spot changes, sometimes subtly sometimes dramatically, with speed and terrain, i.e., up, down, etc. In addition, with some frames the sweet spot is easier to find and maintain while with others it’s more challenging.

    It would seem to me that similar sized Turners with a HL and TNT, with all other factors being the same, would have slightly different sweet spots. This would also apply to any other frame/suspension design for that matter. Therefore, the same rider would require some time on the bike to get the “feel” and fine tune the bike’s set up to optimize the handling characteristics. Furthermore, throughout this fine tuning process, an experienced rider on a specific frame will find that the sweet spot is often fluid or dynamic relative to terrain and over time naturally conditions or trains his body position to be “one” with the bike. Over time, body positioning becomes reflexive through conditioned neuromuscular feedback and muscle memory.

    Simply going from one bike to another doesn’t allow sufficient time to gain sufficient neuromuscular feedback from the “new” bike and retrain the appropriate muscle memory. The body will naturally (reflexively) position itself on the “new” bike like it did on the “old” bike, until it is retrained to do otherwise.

    Therefore, initially on a “new” frame/suspension one can get a general sense as to it’s characteristics, but to parlay that into a definitive on performance extremes is lacking is substance (experience) in my opinion.

    It would be interesting to hear how people of various body types maximized the handling characteristics of specific frame/suspension designs.

    i1dry?
    Last edited by i1dry; 07-24-2006 at 09:33 AM.

  63. #63
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry
    It would be interesting to hear how people of various body types maximized the handling characteristics of specific frame/suspension designs.

    i1dry?
    Care to start the thread, I1???

    Sounds like an interesting topic.
    It seems like this would be also the reason why some people loves X or Y brand. I'm positive most of the users have something in common, regarding riding style and ergonomics.
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    If they didn't like them, they wouldn't like 'em.

    i1d makes some interesting observations. I'd like to clarify that Andy's tests were pretty darned thorough in that it seems he spent quite a bit of time on each rear. I'd also add so have I.(I rode the TNT quite a bit before the B2B test) I'm very aware of the dynamic nature of input response on a bike(I can barely stop thinking about it on a ride ) and that's a very good point. OTOH, I know what I like. After my tests I went back to the HL and I missed the new rear. When I finally got a TNT to keep, what I was missing came back right away...so I'm satisfied. But enough about this other brand...This is a Titus board so I'll shut-up about this.

    It would be interesting to hear how people of various body types maximized the handling characteristics of specific frame/suspension designs.
    Better include frame color too ...b/c I sure don't know how one could eliminate opinion from such a survey. Consider SC tendency for short top-tubes or GF's tendancy for long ones... they both have broad user appeal regardless of rider dimensions. People like Titus b/c people like Titus. Their satisfaction isn't undeserved either.

    BA: Tnx man, That's high praise, esp considering I don't know jack . I just have a bad habit of using more words than necessary.
    (Okay now I'm done...no really)
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  65. #65
    I wonder why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    After my tests I went back to the HL and I missed the new rear. When I finally got a TNT to keep, what I was missing came back right away...so I'm satisfied.
    My original comments were more general in nature and not focused towards you or anyone in particular. Just curious though, was everything else identical on both bikes except for the rear end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Better include frame color too ...b/c I sure don't know how one could eliminate opinion from such a survey. Consider SC tendency for short top-tubes or GF's tendancy for long ones... they both have broad user appeal regardless of rider dimensions. People like Titus b/c people like Titus. Their satisfaction isn't undeserved either.
    I hear you on the frame colour. I just wonder how many people buy a bike based upon the perceived "bling" factor rather than finding the "right" or "appropriate" frame as far a fit and riding style are concerned. I know of a lot of riders (some who race at a fairly high level) who blindly listen to others as to what is best for them without any degree of personal trial. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

    IMO, optimal rider position and handling performance on identical bikes will be significantly affected, over different terrains, when comparing someone with a long heavy set torso and short (stick) legs vs. someone with longer legs and a smaller upper body.

    Personally, I'm concerned about what works for me. While I value feedback from others, it's the personal application of that information that becomes true knowledge which through trial and error provides me with the wisdom to apply it effectively, for my benefit. What works for me doesn't mean that it will work for others.

    In many ways it's a never-ending process/passion. In my case, my wife just says I'm anal and one of the benfits is that she has a nice bike!

    i1dry?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry
    My original comments were more general in nature and not focused towards you or anyone in particular. Just curious though, was everything else identical on both bikes except for the rear end?
    Yep identical, right down to the tire pressure.
    A few other ppl did as well.

    Btw I wasn't challenging your comments only adding on. And you're absolutely correct, the tests were bike, rider AND trail specific. For me reviews have the most meaning when taken collectively and averaged...and then supplemented with one's own experience.

    I can't imagine how your racer buddies would choose a rig only someone else's opinion. I'd guess that would be one of the most rider specific conditions of all.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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    Hmmmm, it appears I have created a monster with this one. I think it's about time this thread was brought to an end as it is getting wildly off the point.

    I am now the proud owner of a Titus Motolite...I love it, and I will probably grow to love it more (I have only ridden it once so far). The bike rides much better than my 2004 Enduro, so regardless of it's suspension design, whatever it is...it works really well.

    Here endeth the thread. Start a new one if you wish to continue any of these discussions.

  68. #68
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    Forgot Ibis (minor detail)

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Also, some people I know is leary to try out bikes with a DW-Link because the only brands that have this system are the Ironhorse's and the Independent Fabrication's... there's not a boutique manufacturer that would sell a high end frame (think Titus, Turner, Ventana). So you either go with a less reputated brand or have to mortgage your house to pay a bike with a DW_Link. God knows how this suspension system would be regarded if there was a boutique brand making bikes with it.
    Just a small comment... you forgot Ibis is also using the DW-Link, and I would definitely consider Ibis a boutique bike maker.

    Cheers,
    Cris

  69. #69
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    Just a small comment... you forgot Ibis is also using the DW-Link, and I would definitely consider Ibis a boutique bike maker.

    Cheers,
    Cris
    Right... But then, how many years has Ibis (now, not since they first appeared) in the biz?
    It's relatively unknown for the newer crop of riders (or the vast majority of them).
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  70. #70
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    Point taken

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Right... But then, how many years has Ibis (now, not since they first appeared) in the biz?
    It's relatively unknown for the newer crop of riders (or the vast majority of them).
    I see your point, and saw it in your original statement, just added the comments for completeness sake. I know Ibis still has to prove that "they stll have it", although I have to admit the Mojo looks extremely sweet.

    Cheers,
    Cris

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    So again, I guess Titus just kinda likes makig donations to Specialized. It's like kindness?
    A lot of people mention braking issues with non HL bikes.
    I've been riding a blur XC for about 3 months; not sure what
    theyre talking about. I dont notice any brake squat or brake jack
    or whatever it is. Maybe I havent ridden enough bikes to see
    what the difference is, but i dont notice any issues with
    the braking.

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