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  1. #1
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
    Reputation: Dropin%Dug's Avatar
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    Four Bar/VPP/Horst Link vs. Single Pivot

    I know, I know...Geeze Dropin, not another lame conjecture thread. But yanno, Geo got me thinkin' and that's a dangerous thing. I've always liked Single Pivot designs since back when I rode a 98 K2/Pro-flex Animal. I've been on four bar and Horst Link bikes as well but like the simplicity and rigidity of a single pivot.

    It seems Single Pivots are making a come back because manufacturers have determined they don't need to pay licensing fees to Spec or add the expense of multiple pivots with today's platform shock designs. Even SC is, I believe, starting to back away from VPP. Note the resurgence of the Super Light and Bullit in their lineup.

    However, with a single pivot you now "have" to run a platform shock. Geo struck a cord I guess in my mind that; why run a platform if you have a rear suspension design that negates bob? Why not have a fully active rear suspension? Will the economics of pivots and complexity mean that all bikes will end up SP and fully active rear suspension will drop by the wayside? If so, have we lost something that was actually a better form of suspension and relegated ourselves to something that was cheaper to produce but not as effective?

    I guess my position on this is I am predominately a DH type of rider. However, I like to be able to ride up what I gotta come down, so I'm OK giving up some small bump compliance and endure some harshness to be able to clear my climbs with a platform at hand. But I can see others who say no way...give me a fully active shock and a four bar design any day.

    Which then begs the question, if the four bar designs out there were really that effective, why did we need platform shocks in the first place? Have at it....
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  2. #2
    Trophy Husband
    Reputation: geolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    Which then begs the question, if the four bar designs out there were really that effective, why did we need platform shocks in the first place? Have at it....
    Because people are lemmings. They believe the hype.

    And, Santa Cruz is NOT "backing away" from VPP. I don't ever see them putting out a single pivot Nomad. People just dig their single pivot bikes...they've been around forever (read: proven), are relatively cheap and easy to repair/maintain.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  3. #3
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    I know, I know...Geeze Dropin, not another lame conjecture thread. But yanno, Geo got me thinkin' and that's a dangerous thing. I've always liked Single Pivot designs since back when I rode a 98 K2/Pro-flex Animal. I've been on four bar and Horst Link bikes as well but like the simplicity and rigidity of a single pivot.

    It seems Single Pivots are making a come back because manufacturers have determined they don't need to pay licensing fees to Spec or add the expense of multiple pivots with today's platform shock designs. Even SC is, I believe, starting to back away from VPP. Note the resurgence of the Super Light and Bullit in their lineup.

    However, with a single pivot you now "have" to run a platform shock. Geo struck a cord I guess in my mind that; why run a platform if you have a rear suspension design that negates bob? Why not have a fully active rear suspension? Will the economics of pivots and complexity mean that all bikes will end up SP and fully active rear suspension will drop by the wayside? If so, have we lost something that was actually a better form of suspension and relegated ourselves to something that was cheaper to produce but not as effective?

    I guess my position on this is I am predominately a DH type of rider. However, I like to be able to ride up what I gotta come down, so I'm OK giving up some small bump compliance and endure some harshness to be able to clear my climbs with a platform at hand. But I can see others who say no way...give me a fully active shock and a four bar design any day.

    Which then begs the question, if the four bar designs out there were really that effective, why did we need platform shocks in the first place? Have at it....
    DW_link... No bob and actually you have to run little compression damping for it to feel good. It's all in the linkage.

    I wish Titus would make a DW bike. The only high end one is the Ibis Mojo... but apart from them, you have Iron Horse (nothing wrong with them, though).

    Titus is already dropping money to Spesh for the FSR... they rather do it to the small guy and enter a full new future. Dave even has the Split-Pivot would they want to make a new, redsigned Loco-Moto for a cheaper price tag.

    There are lots of folks wanting to jump on the DW wagon but the offer is limited to IH or Ibis. Some relate (incorrectly) IH to a low end ride, some others are still not fond of a full carbon bike.

    The field is there to take it.
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  4. #4
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    I have ridden excellent examples of every flavor of suspension mentioned, and I have ridden total dogs in every flavor as well. All types can work quite well, and all can suck pathetically. It has a lot more to do with whether the bike designer understands geometry and linkage characteristics than what trademark/acronym they slap on the chainstay.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  5. #5
    the 36 year old grom
    Reputation: demo_slug's Avatar
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    when does the FSR patent expire???? I heard it was very very close. I say good!!!

    "FSR" type four bar is my favorite. it really is that simple. no need to declare superiority. it would be like trying to convince everyone that salmon is the best tasting fish( it is BTW).

  6. #6
    Trophy Husband
    Reputation: geolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    ...it would be like trying to convince everyone that salmon is the best tasting fish( it is BTW).
    Great...another Droppin%Dug thread topic...

    What is the best tasting fish?

    Are we gonnna just forget about sushi grade tuna just because salmon is making a comeback?
    Extreme stationary biker.

  7. #7
    the 36 year old grom
    Reputation: demo_slug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropin%Dug
    but like the simplicity and rigidity of a single pivot.
    foes claims "SINGLE PIVOT DESIGN FOR MAXIMUM STIFFNESS"

    but foes doen't make any real "simple" single pivot bikes IMHO. not even one. every last one of them has "extra" links that add geometric stablity to the rear swing arm. which is the right thing to do. I really like the way the FXRs structural linkage is done.

    but I would really argue the samantics to calling it a single pivot in a statment touting its structual construction. its very correct to call it a single pivot in regards to suspension wheel path. but calling it a single pivot in regards to structual construction is a bit off.

  8. #8
    moaaar shimz
    Reputation: tacubaya's Avatar
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    My choices:

    Dw Link by far
    VPP
    FSR
    ICT
    Four Bar
    Single Pivot

    Choices based on... information gathered by my a$$

  9. #9
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
    Reputation: Dropin%Dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Great...another Droppin%Dug thread topic...

    What is the best tasting fish?

    Are we gonnna just forget about sushi grade tuna just because salmon is making a comeback?

    Yes!!! Sushi grade tuna is becoming an endangered species and why eat something that isn't cooked....
    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    when does the FSR patent expire???? I heard it was very very close. I say good!!!

    "FSR" type four bar is my favorite. it really is that simple. no need to declare superiority. it would be like trying to convince everyone that salmon is the best tasting fish( it is BTW).

    It's a few more years. I think like 4-5 more years.
    Titus Racer X
    Lynskey Singlespeed

  11. #11
    Goin' Down ain't bad!!!
    Reputation: Dropin%Dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Dave even has the Split-Pivot would they want to make a new, redsigned Loco-Moto for a cheaper price tag.
    Wow...the split pivot is intriguing. First I looked at it and said; alright, single pivot behind the seat post is a little strange and then I looked at the concept and WOW. This frees the movement of the seat stays from the chain stays to an incredible degree.

    They use a swing link alla Intense/Foes but the pivot point above and behind the BB is pretty unique. Would love to see the linkage simulations on this thing.

    Maybe we are talking "revolutionary" here. Now package it in a 7-1/2lb frame with 8" of travel and we're off to the races.....DH races that is.
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    Dug-da-Goat

    "Oh momma, could this really be the end? To be stuck outside of Mojo with the High Side Blues again!!!"

  12. #12
    I rode 'Whistler XC'
    Reputation: MintSauce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Because people are lemmings. They believe the hype.

    And, Santa Cruz is NOT "backing away" from VPP. I don't ever see them putting out a single pivot Nomad. People just dig their single pivot bikes...they've been around forever (read: proven), are relatively cheap and easy to repair/maintain.
    Yip....A friend of mine went from a SC Superlight to a Blur for about 3yrs and just sold that and got the new Superlight. He says it just works. Reason for selling was maintenance issues with the Blur
    If I wanted your opinion I'd give it to you

  13. #13
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacubaya
    My choices:

    Dw Link by far
    VPP
    FSR
    ICT
    Four Bar
    Single Pivot

    Choices based on... information gathered by my a$$
    What is "ICT," and aren't both DW and FSR considered Four Bar?

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