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  1. #101
    PMK
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    Some forks are better than others in regards to working on them. Some are easy to destroy while others can easily be repaired. Having 99 extra "O"rings could be an indicator of your need to work on your machine more often...

    Often the worst part about bicycle suspension work, especially in regards to air forks, is worn anodized surfaces coupled with lack of frequent normal maintenance and planned obsolescence or no availability of parts.

    If I had a fraction of the money spent replacing stuff I was unable to repair due to maintenance neglect, I could possibly buy another ECDM or Fandango.

    Some of the most neglected areas are removing the forks lower legs and cleaning all the dust from the seal area. No amount of washing or external maintenance will accomplish this. Also, the degradation in how the fork feels is often huge. So not only is the fork being destroyed, the ride is poor and control on rough terrain is reduced. Often this results in a complete fork replacement.

    PK

  2. #102
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    We ride in a pretty dusty environment, but there wasn't much grit intrusion past the wipers. The felt seals even seemed reusable. I typically clean the bike, at most, after every second ride, so that may have something to do with it. And, while dusty, we don't deal much with wet conditions.

    If anyone has an '06 Marz 66 (or whatever other years/models use the same) and needs the Doppio o-rings, PM me for my address and send me a SASE.

  3. #103
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    The comment about the fine dust getting past the dust wiper was not directed towards you in particular, more a general statement letting everyone understand more about this and possible consequences.

    Running parallel to this are items like the RP3 and all similar type rear shocks.

    PK

  4. #104
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    Good job!

    Updating for new fork. Changed out from an '06 Marz 66SL air to a 2011 Marz 66EVO coil. Main changes are 38mm stanchions (up from 35), QR20 (up from bolt-on through-axle), 8" disc post mount (up from 6"), and the differences between air spring and coil spring.

    Had it out on the trail today and it is a nice fork. Stiffer than the '06, mainly felt when climbing square hits at an angle. Plusher, but that may be my higher-than-spec'ed air pressures in the '06. No sticktion from new, and that QR20 is really nice. And, despite the advertised 180mm travel, I seem to have more standover than I did with the '06 which was 170mm travel. I didn't measure A-to-C, but I should to see if there are differences to account for the added standover. Not complaining! All in all, a worthwhile upgrade for the pittance I paid from Huck'n'Roll.

    Still working on settings, but currently has 15psi preload, about 2/3rds coil spring preload, 6 of 8 clicks toward hard compression dampening, and middle-of-the-road rebound settings. The preloads probably won't change much, but the rebound/compression are sure to.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Suspension Fork Experience - What's Working? What's Not?-img_3655.jpg  


  5. #105
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    Side shot please.

    FWIW, I typically run the cable or hose inside the fork leg and ensure the hose does not touch the upper tube.

    Overall though sounds good.

    PK
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  6. #106
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    The brake line is free from the stanchion by about 1/2" and this doesn't seem to change under compression. The Hope lines are rubber-coated braided stainless, so there'd have to be a fair amount of rub before there'd be damage. Marz's front-mount clip is alright, but their older rear-mount clip (as on my '06) was better. Luckily I didn't have to reposition the line coming out of the caliper, but it was close.

    Not sure where I get the added standover. A-to-C on the '06 is ~22", while A-to-C on the '11 appears to be closer to 22.5". Very odd.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Suspension Fork Experience - What's Working? What's Not?-img_3656.jpg  


  7. #107
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    I've run my hoses both inside and outside. I also prefer inside. From that front-clip it cleanly route inside the leg. I figure it's less susceptible to damage -- not that I've damaged brake hoses...

  8. #108
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    How about the new Fox Talas 34 in 29er dress. Tapered Headtube.

    Any feelings?
    www.velocitybicycles.comWhere customers become friends, not simply a dollar sign.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14 View Post
    How about the new Fox Talas 34 in 29er dress. Tapered Headtube.

    Any feelings?
    On what frame and how small are the riders?

    PK
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14 View Post
    How about the new Fox Talas 34 in 29er dress. Tapered Headtube.

    Any feelings?
    We are currently riding this setup on out new ECDM 29er. We are a light(ish) team at around 270lbs. So far so good, I like the fork. We did not get the opportunity to get many miles in before the snow.

    I'll update in the spring/summer when we get some more time on it. For what its worth, we don't launch any big drops...

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199 View Post
    We are currently riding this setup on out new ECDM 29er. We are a light(ish) team at around 270lbs. So far so good, I like the fork. We did not get the opportunity to get many miles in before the snow.

    I'll update in the spring/summer when we get some more time on it. For what its worth, we don't launch any big drops...
    Exactly, so much of this fork to use discussion is based around the size of the riders, the ability of the riders, the terrain, how much the riders want to push the extremes of where they ride, and for some cost / warranty concerns, others often prefer "tandem rated" endorsements from the manufacturer, some prefer performance over endorsements.

    You just need to find the category that fits and go with it.

    We run two different brands of off-road forks on our tandems. One is not tandem rated, but works very well. The other is not a popular fork because the performance is poor as it comes from the manufacturer. I was just lucky and sorted it out, making it our hardtail fork for the Fandango 29r. Would we be happy with a White Brothers, maybe, a Marzocchi, maybe, a Maverick, you see my point.

    The flip side is, if you are a shop, and you install say a Fox fork, that is explicitly not approved for a tandem, are you as the shop owner willing to take that risk?

    So many decisions...

    PK
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  12. #112
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    What's not working...

    White Brothers Magic T100 leaks all air out in <24 hours. Any idiot checks before I ship it to MRP? Works fine while there's air in it. Thanks for any advice.

    Mike

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by She&I View Post
    What's not working...

    White Brothers Magic T100 leaks all air out in <24 hours. Any idiot checks before I ship it to MRP? Works fine while there's air in it. Thanks for any advice.

    Mike
    Valve core tight...top cap tight (snug)

    PK
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14 View Post
    How about the new Fox Talas 34 in 29er dress. Tapered Headtube.

    Any feelings?
    Guess now we know, funny title for your post

    Follow along children. Tandem build!
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by She&I View Post
    Any idiot checks before I ship it to MRP?
    Valve core: sometimes tiny things can get stuck in the core itself. Pull it , clean it and try again. You can also test by dripping water on it (while at full pressure) and looking for bubbles.

  16. #116
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    Thanks, guys. Will do.

    Mike

  17. #117
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    Also with the valve core, check the cap. We had a very small piece of debris stuck inside the cap/cover and it was placed so it was bleeding air from the fork. Drove me crazy.
    FWIW, our Magic fork seems to lose air during the coldest time of the year. Spoke to WB about it and they felt it was something that was pretty normal since it held air when it was warmer.
    Ed and Pat Gifford
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  18. #118
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    I removed and cleaned the valve core, and so far it looks like we're back in biz. No apparent leakage in 20+ hours.

    PK, T4T, Giff: Thanks greatly for the info. You guys saved me some hassle, not to mention down time.



    Mike

  19. #119
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    Iam selling my cannondale moto fr fork in perfect condition.

    eighty aid serviced, red and blue spring + tool, powder coated in dark blue, reeinforced for disc brake use, only 100km since last full service

    if you need more information send me a pm

    shipping from germany to other countrys is available

    anyone interested?

    powermac

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by powermac View Post
    Iam selling my cannondale moto fr fork in perfect condition.

    eighty aid serviced, red and blue spring + tool, powder coated in dark blue, reeinforced for disc brake use, only 100km since last full service

    if you need more information send me a pm

    shipping from germany to other countrys is available

    anyone interested?

    powermac
    What bike or tandem did was it removed from? What fork was installed to replace it?

    FWIW, you may need to list this in the MTBR classifieds to prevent both yours and my post from being removed.

    PK
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  21. #121
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    Hi,

    the fork was removed from a germans cycles tandem, i will replace it with a rigid fork because the last 3 years i rode both forks time by time and for my use of the bike the rigid is the better choice (speedy forest way and empty road tracks). Most of this time the moto fr lies around. You can see the tandem on the german cycles website in the gallery. I know about the classifieds but the problem is i dont have the number of posts for it, i think this will change soon :-)

    Power

  22. #122
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    So on the topic of Suspension forks, has anyone converted a cannondale road frame by way of attaching a suspension fork up front and riding as a hard-tail? If not, any suggestions there in?

  23. #123
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    Conversion

    Just my .02 but I wouldn't do it. Try riding your bike cyclocross style, then if you like roads and trails and want more - buy an actual off-road tandem. Used C'dale, Fandango, or other.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trails4Two View Post
    Just my .02 but I wouldn't do it. Try riding your bike cyclocross style, then if you like roads and trails and want more - buy an actual off-road tandem. Used C'dale, Fandango, or other.
    As a practical matter, I agree with you and my wife would never let me try such a surgery (at least not this early in the game). We have tested the bike out as a cross and it works quite well, but I'm having fun looking at my various options!

  25. #125
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    Eye Captain, how intense them trails be you plan to navigate. Could be some rough sailing for that road frame.

    I would really be more worried about the low ground clearance on the RT2, plus the uncertainty of if there is enough strength in the frame for the stress of off-road and added length of the fork. Purely speculating, but economically the cost of the proper bike vs ER visit.

    You do realize that you can sell an RT2 for easily what you can buy two used Cannondale mountain tandems for, provided the RT2 is not trashed.

    PK
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Eye Captain, how intense them trails be you plan to navigate. Could be some rough sailing for that road frame.

    I would really be more worried about the low ground clearance on the RT2, plus the uncertainty of if there is enough strength in the frame for the stress of off-road and added length of the fork. Purely speculating, but economically the cost of the proper bike vs ER visit.

    You do realize that you can sell an RT2 for easily what you can buy two used Cannondale mountain tandems for, provided the RT2 is not trashed.

    PK
    Practically speaking, they would be very mild trails, as I don't think my wife would take kindly to technical single-track. I only just got her bike communing two years ago, and she is still gun-shy of much other than road riding. I've taken her & the tandem up the leif erickson trail here in Portland and she's responded mostly positively there.

    The plan (in my mind) is to ride the RT2 for two years or so, and then upgrade to a touring frame w/ S&S for air-transport. Somwhere in that two years, I'm hoping to get my hands on a late model cannondale MT series. (irony here is that my dad had the very MT I want, but he sold it long before I met my wife)

    That being said, aside from bashing in a tube on rocks, in theory it should be durable enough to put a fork on and take it on the trails around these parts. Back in the mid-90's, Bianchi made a triple butted steel mtn. frame that their teams raced with some success (or at least I don't remember hearing anything about the frames folding during rides).

  27. #127
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    We are currently running a Fox Float 36mm (single crown) with Lock Out and 20mm thru axle on our Ellsworth Witness. Our team weight is only about 235, but we ride it pretty hard. I've lowered the travel to 130mm using the internal spacers.

    Over the years I've tried the Maverick DUC and the White Brothers 100T - and this latest Fox fork blows them both away in terms of great handling, stiffness, and ride quality. Yes, Fox won't officially say its OK to run this fork on a tandem - but don't let that stop you. It's stronger than both the Maverick and the White Brothers.

    have some friends that just got a 29er Ventana built with the Fox Float 34 and it's definitely the only way to go with a 29er tandem these days. So much better than the White Brothers fork - and according to Fox the 34mm legs with tapered steer tube is nearly as stiff in every way as the 36mm with straight 1 1/8" steer tube. Nice to finally have awesome forks for the awesome tandem mtn frames that have been around for several years now!

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry@PineMountainSports View Post
    have some friends that just got a 29er Ventana built with the Fox Float 34 and it's definitely the only way to go with a 29er tandem these days. So much better than the White Brothers fork - and according to Fox the 34mm legs with tapered steer tube is nearly as stiff in every way as the 36mm with straight 1 1/8" steer tube. Nice to finally have awesome forks for the awesome tandem mtn frames that have been around for several years now!
    We are are also running a Fox 34 (actually a TALAS not FLoat) on our new ECDM 29. It is still too early to report, but base on the handful of rides that we have on it, I'd say that I prefer it to the Maveick Duc 32 that we have on our Fandango 29. More to come once we get some serious miles on it. I will say that we are big fans of the new bike too!!

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry@PineMountainSports View Post
    We are currently running a Fox Float 36mm (single crown) with Lock Out and 20mm thru axle on our Ellsworth Witness. Our team weight is only about 235, but we ride it pretty hard. I've lowered the travel to 130mm using the internal spacers.

    Over the years I've tried the Maverick DUC and the White Brothers 100T - and this latest Fox fork blows them both away in terms of great handling, stiffness, and ride quality. Yes, Fox won't officially say its OK to run this fork on a tandem - but don't let that stop you. It's stronger than both the Maverick and the White Brothers.

    have some friends that just got a 29er Ventana built with the Fox Float 34 and it's definitely the only way to go with a 29er tandem these days. So much better than the White Brothers fork - and according to Fox the 34mm legs with tapered steer tube is nearly as stiff in every way as the 36mm with straight 1 1/8" steer tube. Nice to finally have awesome forks for the awesome tandem mtn frames that have been around for several years now!
    Smaller, lighter teams can get away with a lot more. At 235 pounds, that's less than many single riders. You Ellsworth is likely on 12 pounds more than the single bikes these folks ride also.

    Ironically, knowing the Ellsworth is 26", the fork that will outperform that Fox 36 is the Fox 40. The one advantage gained from a single crown vs a dual crown is turning radius. There is a weight difference, but the offset is strength and steering precision.

    29r fork, on a hardtail like a Fandango or Cannondale, having a Fox 40 as a comparison, the modified ATC gets the job done. The ATC would improve another step if I spent the money on lighter spring(s).

    BTW, my #2 29r pick would be a modified Fox 40 or Fox 36.

    PK
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  30. #130
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    I'm currently running a JP Morgen stem but I'm thinking of trying one of my 888RC forks on this GT tandem, Yes I will need to restrict the travel and get stiffer springs for it.


    Any advice on the 888's to much fork...??

    JP stems are works of art and they also work really well, specially on bikes like tandem's.

  31. #131
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  32. #132
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    CLJ, I / we have never owned, ridden or worked on one. For single bikes they get great critiques overall for earlier model years. Some of the older froks had problems and also these older forks existed in a time less "good" for Manitou.

    I did some searching for more info, this link gives some better details.

    Manitou Dorado Pro MTB Fork Review | Mountain Bike Blog || SINGLETRACKS.COM

    FWIW, my one personal reason against these forks are that they are a USD (upside down) style fork. Granted they can work very well, and done properly can be very flex free. The issue I have and see constantly with MX stuff is that the internal oil is always resting upon the seals, and these style forks are more prone to fork seal leaks. Not saying this will or will not happen, just is typical of the USD design.

    Saying that, if we had the need and those forks were fit the bill, we would likely run them.

    Supposedly, they are handbuilt in the US, arrive in a Gun Case for a shipping box, and have one year of included maintenance. So basically about as "works" as you can get off the shelf in a bicycle fork.

    Before you pull the trigger, ask the pinnacle question...are they longer in length than your current WB 100 fork? If so how much will it alter the bikes handling and standover.

    PK
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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by clj2289 View Post
    I've got a brand new reduced travel one here if you want it. Very plush, but too plush for our team weight.
    MTB Tandems Inc.
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  34. #134
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    Paul,

    Thanks for the info. I will have to consider all of that.

    Alex, I will have to give you a call and chat about that fork, but I thinking that if its too plush for you guys, then it might be too plush for us as well. You have provided us wonderful support with us on our White Bros and I really appreciate that.

    I'm thinking about considering one of the Fox 34 29er forks. Not sure which one, but now that folks have spent some time on them, it might be a good time to get folks to come forward with their field test experiences.

    Cheers,
    Chris

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    Fork help

    So I have been reading about the different options you guys are talking about, but my needs are a little different.

    I converted a burley zydeco to more of a mountain bike setup. I will be riding mostly tight hard pack single track in north texas. I am using this with my kids so our team weight will be about 250. I don't want to kick the front end up to much but would love to run a fork. Any ideas on what might work? PS. I would run a softride stem but I will be running a 100 mill stem so I am not sure a suspension stem will be short enough.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rmabus View Post
    So I have been reading about the different options you guys are talking about, but my needs are a little different.

    I converted a burley zydeco to more of a mountain bike setup. I will be riding mostly tight hard pack single track in north texas. I am using this with my kids so our team weight will be about 250. I don't want to kick the front end up to much but would love to run a fork. Any ideas on what might work? PS. I would run a softride stem but I will be running a 100 mill stem so I am not sure a suspension stem will be short enough.
    Assuming the frame is a 1 1/8 headtube, your best bet is looking for a good condition used Marzocchi Dirt Jumper or similar series with the brake posts and quick release axle. This may be a tough request from what others have mentioned.

    If the frame is 1", I doubt there is much left anymore.

    Best of luck with it.

    PK
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  37. #137
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    It is definitely a 1 1/8th. I talked to the owner of mtbtandem.com and he really kindof steered me away from a fork altogether, and recommended that I use this tandem as a test platform to see if I like it, then upgrade to a REAL Mtb tandem. My only issue is the fact that I am only going to ride this thing for about 3 years or so with my sons. As they get older they need to ride there own bikes. In other words I am not a long term tandem owner and dumping a lot of money into this or a better tandem is just not wise. I figure a used fork and maybe a front disk brake are about all I plan to put into this thing.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rmabus View Post
    My only issue is the fact that I am only going to ride this thing for about 3 years or so with my sons
    Big fat front tire? Don't know how fat a tire you can get away with, but I remember our old KHS off-road tandem came with anemic 1.9s. We run 2.5" WTB Dissents on our Ventana. Will depend on what sort of fork clearance you have, and the size of the rims...

    Adding front disc requires the requisite fork and disc brake setup, but also a new hub (and likely a new front wheel build).

  39. #139
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    I am thinking about simply leaving it alone. I am currently running a meat cleaver of a front Schwalbe tire. It is either a 2.25 or a 2.5. I will probably be going to a set of magura hydro rim brakes and leave it be.

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    I have yet to take this off road as my kids wanted to ride there own new bikes first but spinning around the neightborhood even with the a 2.5 tire up front, I get the feeling I am going to be pulling for a dirt jumper fork soon. Anyone ever tried to drop the travel some to lower the crown height to accomodate a non sus fork frame?

  41. #141
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    Dirt Jumper

    The DJ series is a spring fork with Air assist. If you don't put air in it, it will ride at about 75-80mm travel. If you find you are bottoming out, gradually add air and I would bet that you would soon be using full travel with no notable steering effects.

  42. #142
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    You know I am thinking about this more but to be honest I am wrestling with how to go about getting this all done. I live in Dallas right so it is not like I need some serious duel piston disk brakes. The rear end is not even set for disk. So I have been kicking around the idea of a v-brake dj fork or the other duel crown tandem fork and using some magura hydro rim brakes for the short run. I don't want to put a ton of money into this yet so I am trying to work on the cheap. I know everyone says eventually you will spend more but the "time value" of money is also in play here.

  43. #143
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    Fork

    A friend of mine in Denver just inherited a Cannondale Moto fork from a friend. It is 100mm travel, has rim posts and disc mount. It is a solid fork, we rode one for years. Others can add their .25, but it would be a good place to start. Price would probably be VERY low ( I can't speak for him directly. If you are interested post here. He is on the tandem forum or I can connect you.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Suspension Fork Experience - What's Working? What's Not?-2012-10-15_20-29-06_451.jpg  


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    Trails4two. Pm sent.

  45. #145
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    Wow, that's an old ass fork; personally I've been pleased with the RS Tora line since it uses a steel steerer and butted chromo stanchtions with 20mm maxle light lowers. Standard QR's flex awfully and aluminum unlike steel breaks before bending, got one on E-bay for around 2 bills and works well; make sure to get an air spring though.

  46. #146
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    Fox Talas 36 RC

    How does the Fox Talas 36 RC hold up as a tandem fork? We are a 280lb team.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonP. View Post
    How does the Fox Talas 36 RC hold up as a tandem fork? We are a 280lb team.
    First off, understand that none of the FOX fork products are rated for tandems. Saying that though, a lot of people run them.

    The 36 Talas you have should have more than enough knobs and adjustments to dial it in and provide excellent performance.

    I'm not sure if yours is the RC or RC2 style cartridge. Not a big deal, but what is very worthwhile is the high speed compression clicker.

    You will want to build the required routine maintenance tools and frequently change the lower fluid. This is very important since when accomplishing this task, you are cleaning the seals and lubing them.

    Also, it is not uncommon to have the forks lowers crack at the axle perch. This caused by using a 5mm hex wrench that easily overtightens the pinch bolts.

    I made up, (and recently lost, left in the bed of the Tacoma and drove away) a 5mm hex wrench on a screwdriver handle. This is easily capable of the 19inlb torque for the pinch bolts and axle. Also, after each ride, I always loosen the axle pinch bolts and axle itself to help prevent cracking.

    We run a fork with similar features, a Fox 40 Kashima DH fork. It is really nice to have the ability to adjust easily for whatever the conditions are. Our recent FTF we attended had different terrain than home. Home is more sandy and rooted vs the FTF which is hardpack and rooted plus rocks. On our first ride of the FTF, after about a mile I had the stoker reach down and soften the DHX 5.0air rear shock Propedal which is basically the HSC. Once the back settled in and was hooked up well without harshness, I made a couple of changes to the front forks HSC. Without stopping or even slowing, we had the bike dialed in within 1/2 a mile.

    Your RP23 on the rear is not as versatile, but the fork should be.

    PK
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  48. #148
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    i am very interested if not sold yet...

    very interested in this fork please let me know if not sold...
    Quote Originally Posted by Trails4Two View Post
    A friend of mine in Denver just inherited a Cannondale Moto fork from a friend. It is 100mm travel, has rim posts and disc mount. It is a solid fork, we rode one for years. Others can add their .25, but it would be a good place to start. Price would probably be VERY low ( I can't speak for him directly. If you are interested post here. He is on the tandem forum or I can connect you.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDEADGOATX View Post
    very interested in this fork please let me know if not sold...
    I'll ask the guy if he still has it.

  50. #150
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    Air pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    First off, understand that none of the FOX fork products are rated for tandems. Saying that though, a lot of people run them.

    The 36 Talas you have should have more than enough knobs and adjustments to dial it in and provide excellent performance.

    I'm not sure if yours is the RC or RC2 style cartridge. Not a big deal, but what is very worthwhile is the high speed compression clicker.

    You will want to build the required routine maintenance tools and frequently change the lower fluid. This is very important since when accomplishing this task, you are cleaning the seals and lubing them.

    Also, it is not uncommon to have the forks lowers crack at the axle perch. This caused by using a 5mm hex wrench that easily overtightens the pinch bolts.

    I made up, (and recently lost, left in the bed of the Tacoma and drove away) a 5mm hex wrench on a screwdriver handle. This is easily capable of the 19inlb torque for the pinch bolts and axle. Also, after each ride, I always loosen the axle pinch bolts and axle itself to help prevent cracking.

    We run a fork with similar features, a Fox 40 Kashima DH fork. It is really nice to have the ability to adjust easily for whatever the conditions are. Our recent FTF we attended had different terrain than home. Home is more sandy and rooted vs the FTF which is hardpack and rooted plus rocks. On our first ride of the FTF, after about a mile I had the stoker reach down and soften the DHX 5.0air rear shock Propedal which is basically the HSC. Once the back settled in and was hooked up well without harshness, I made a couple of changes to the front forks HSC. Without stopping or even slowing, we had the bike dialed in within 1/2 a mile.

    Your RP23 on the rear is not as versatile, but the fork should be.

    PK
    Received the bike yesterday and in checking things out found the fork is the RC2 model with the flip levers to secure the thru axel. The fork had 150psi and the shock was at 240psi. Seems high for our weight, I run 50/150 on my Enduro. What would you reccommend for starting pressures. We won't be taking any big hits for a while just light trail rides for now...

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonP. View Post
    Received the bike yesterday and in checking things out found the fork is the RC2 model with the flip levers to secure the thru axel. The fork had 150psi and the shock was at 240psi. Seems high for our weight, I run 50/150 on my Enduro. What would you reccommend for starting pressures. We won't be taking any big hits for a while just light trail rides for now...
    240 in the rear RP23 may be a few PSI high, I don't know which version of the shock you have. This can effect the pressure and setup. Can you post a photo? As a good guide, set the base pressure for the point of stoker alone and just enough pressure for zero sag. Note the amount and if needed add in 10 psi increments until both riders gives about 3/8" sag.

    The fork and 150, well, that is a matter of accomplishing some static tests for sag. Aim for less than 20%. You will probably need to work the pressure until the fork / steering feels good.

    PK
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  52. #152
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    Don P, just saw the photos, you have a large can rear shock, that forces you to run higher pressures to minimize wallow in the mid stroke.

    PK
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  53. #153
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    We have the same shock and run it at ~175psi. Stoker weight of ~135, team weight of 340+gear. Lots of variables, but I'd think 240psi is high.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine View Post
    We have the same shock and run it at ~175psi. Stoker weight of ~135, team weight of 340+gear. Lots of variables, but I'd think 240psi is high.
    So much depends upon stoker weight. I forgot OK do you have a small can shock or large can shock? We have run both and from experience know that WE need more pressure (about 25 psi increase) if we run a large can shock.

    The reason why is progression of the air spring. The large can has a flatter rising rate. This makes for a softer mid stroke with the bike settling lower. For us, this is bad since it corners vaguely and "drags" cranks or tubes at bad times.

    If you run a super long fork this can help but tends to make it chopperish with a long fork and low rear.

    In the end though, each team is different, and on tandems more than singles it is not always as easy to just carry across the numbers.

    I'm certain if 10 teams rode our ECDM, some would not like the ergos, some not like the tires, and without doubt, many would probably not like our suspension settings. Change the settings and what was hated a moment before may be nirvana.

    PK
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    We decided we're running the big can, '11 BV version. I found I had to add 15psi over the '06 small RP3 on our old bike.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine View Post
    We decided we're running the big can, '11 BV version. I found I had to add 15psi over the '06 small RP3 on our old bike.
    And there is nothing wrong with this. Suspension is all about finding the best set of compromises for the application.

    PK
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  57. #157
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    Okay, did some fiddling with pressures and are feeling good at 180 psi in the shock and 100 in the fork. We plan on a 25 miler tomorrow on rolly fast fire road, I may bring the pump for on trail adjustments. I also had to rotate the shock to get access to the schrader valve as it's blocked by the left side rocker...

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonP. View Post
    Okay, did some fiddling with pressures and are feeling good at 180 psi in the shock and 100 in the fork. We plan on a 25 miler tomorrow on rolly fast fire road, I may bring the pump for on trail adjustments. I also had to rotate the shock to get access to the schrader valve as it's blocked by the left side rocker...
    Without getting in trouble, how much does your stoker weigh?

    PK
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  59. #159
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    We have a SR Suntour DURO SF9 on our Tandem. Even with the hard spring it was to soft at the beginning, but changing the elastomers to the hard (green) ones did the trick. The fork keeps up hard rides, has low flex and works like a charm.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmk View Post
    without getting in trouble, how much does your stoker weigh?

    Pk
    115

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonP. View Post
    115
    Explains the lower pressure

    PK
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  62. #162
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    here is a link to my iild with the new suspension

    ECDM right side drive / lock out suspension Build

  63. #163
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    White Brothers is coming out with a Double crown version of their Loop. I'll try to get some info/time on it and report back.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trails4Two View Post
    White Brothers is coming out with a Double crown version of their Loop. I'll try to get some info/time on it and report back.
    We've been selling it for over a year now. Much improved over the Magic platform.
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    Ok, here goes. New Fandango 29'r, new team, 260lbs. Experienced riders in North GA. Will spend 99% of our time on singletrack with lots of rocks and roots, quick turn-ins, etc. We opted to spec our tandem with a single-crown White Bros. Magic 100 rather than the newer dual-crown Loop as I wanted the quicker steering and handling characteristics. The fork felt great in the parking lot but was a bear to figure out on the trail.

    Initial settings were ~35-40psi, IMV somewhere in the middle and rebound - no idea.

    Initially, we had a severe topping out clunk, which I understood to be too fast rebound - I just wasn't sure how to slow it down. I eventually found the knob below the right leg and found that very small increments had a big effect on rebound. I added pressure to 50psi, but that greatly limited movement. I then went full on and full off on the IMV setting, which I now understand is essentially a compression setting.

    By the end of the ride, we were ~20psi, almost no compression and still slightly topping out. The fork is new and we only put 3 hours on it yesterday, so I expect there to be intial stiction and expect it to loosen up with more hours.

    If you're having good success with this fork, can you give me some good initial settings? I'm not at all opposed to opening it up and changing the weight of the fork oil, or amount of oil, etc; in fact, I have a new bottle of Fox 10wt green oil on the workbench.

    Thoughts?

    For the rear, my stoker is using the ThudBuster with 2 blue elastomers. She is maybe 110lbs and...is quite sore today. We messed with her position on the seat to try to find the sweet spot to activate the thudbuster, but ultimately, I think she may need to swap out a blue elastomer for a softer gray one. Do these have a break in period? Any comments appreciated.
    Last edited by mhopton; 04-28-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  66. #166
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    Magic fork

    I tested a Magic on our tandem and never quite liked the feel of it. That said, they are pretty adjustable. If you don't get any better answers here, I suggest calling them direct. They are here in town with me and are good folks who like a puzzle. As for the Thudbuster, my wife used 1 blue/1 gray. She is 114lbs. They don't really "break-in" so much as "break down"; they will soften slightly as they get used - until they get old. They do have an age limit, so if they are older they can get quite firm.

  67. #167
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    Yes, you will probably need Gray for one elastomer if not both. This may change over time, depending upon how much movement your stoker wants. The seat does float aft and down. My stoker, when we ran a Thudbuster LT on our previous Cannondales and Fandango, did not prefer a lot of movement, but did expect enough on unexpected hits.

    You can set the initial preload via tightening the long bolt or loosening.

    Gray elastomers are known to fail by splitting and going bye / bye. Blue and black do not. If you plan to ride on grays, ensure you understand how to replace the elastomer and carry a spare. Tools are simple, 10 mm box end wrench (cut down cheapy if you want) and an allen wrench.

    We have ridden with a few stokers in the low rider position. If it does happen, and an elastomer is not there to be installed, raise the seat, but realize it will be much further aft.

    As for the fork...I have heard good, heard not so good, know they can be very adjustable.

    First ensure no axle alignment concerns binding the fork legs.

    Next, it should never be setup to top out, let alone top out with a clunk. Rebound should be set first, it is easy. Run the least possible without having the bike wallow or unsettle in a corner.

    Compression, set the low speed first with IMV full open. This is based on feel to not wallow or be harsh. Once close, start adding a small amount of IMV influence, while POSSIBLY, reducing compression clicker by one or two clicks.

    As for air pressure, I would run sag not carved in stone to a specific number, but rather approximately 20% of full stroke. On pavement, see how the bike turns. Pay particular attention to wheel flop. Adjust pressure slightly to lessen wheel flop. While riding off-road, see if the tire stays planted and note how much travel is utilized.

    Setup will be different from a single bike, it should not feel soft and squishy, but rather firm and somewhat more heavily damped.

    For comparison, a single MTB bike is like a motocross or woods race motorcycle when it comes to how the bike may feel. The tandem, while still performance based, is morre like a heavier sport road motorcycle. It will feel firm on account of the additional weight and stability required. Like a sport bike compared to an MX machine, the sport bike runs proper springs with a lot of preload and reasonable spring rates. The MX bike runs a soft spring with very little if any amount of preload.

    PK
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    We have owned 2 WB Magic 100T forks. One on a Fandango the other on our current ECDM. Like the others I have never been able to quite get it sorted to my satisfaction. Both of them were dual crown versions. The main issue I feel is they are over sprung for our team weight(+/- 285). WB has great customer and technical support but they simply do not sell lighter springs for this model. They do for the Loop. I run the fork without any air pressure to get it to perform somewhat. WB tech says this is OK and it has improved performance. I have dealt with Eric Prinster ( i think thats his last name) at WB and he is very helpful. I have to say that I do not have a great understanding of suspension and learned most of what I know from Paul (PMK) at a clinic he did at the last AORTA event in N Carolina. Paul has also been very helpful in helping me get this sorted. I would start without air pressure and with the IMV in the middle position then set sag from there. We dialed down on the IMV to get sag correct. Test it in the woods and make sure you are getting full travel in most situations. If you find yourself bottoming out then add air pressure to suit. Ours would not hold lower air pressures.(less than 40 psi). Other than that the only advice I can offer is pay attention to what Paul has to say. Hope that helps!
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem

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    Great replies Ed and Paul - thank you. I spent some time on the phone with the guys at WB, read the tuning manual and talked to Alex some more after stopping by the shop yesterday. We are heading out tomorrow for a good ride to continue the trial/error of fitting the bike and I believe that we have a good starting point. Essentially, we are going to run 10psi, which gives me about 25% sag. Rebound is difficult to tell given the short stroke of the damper and the IMV setting is 5 cliks out from full soft (-). I'm getting good movement on the pavement but the test will be on the trails tomorrow - will report back!

    As for the Thudbuster, Alex continues with the theme of great service and tossed a grey bumper my way for my Stoker to test out - she's stoked.

    More to come....

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    As a suggestion try running no air pressure and increasing the clicks on the IMV after trying it your way .My forks would not hold air pressure that low for even an hours trail ride. Let us know how it all pans out.
    Ed

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhopton View Post
    ...As for the Thudbuster, Alex continues with the theme of great service and tossed a grey bumper my way for my Stoker to test out - she's stoked.

    More to come....
    Regarding the grey bumpers, as mentioned previously, they are not as durable, so make sure that you carry a spare and the tools to replace. We carry a small "leatherman" type tool along with our trusty multitool and have been able to replace and get on with the ride.

    Depending on how flexy your stoker likes the suspended seatpost, you may want to try one blue with one grey, or possibly two grey?

    Good luck wih dialing the suspension!

  72. #172
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    On our 29er ECDM, we have been using a Fox 34 fork and float rear, both using CTD dampers since January and are very happy with it. We have the remote lever that allows me to switch compression damping in large increments on the fly for both front and rear simulanteously. I change the settings often during rides for up and down hills. I should measure, but I think my fork has travel reducers so that it is set to 110mm. Otherwise its a 120mm Float 34.

    The only thing I would change at the moment is to run the rear shock upside down since the adjuster cable moves up and down with the shock stroke. I have some different than stock reducers on the shock mounts so I can just flip them.
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    That last post begs a question I'd thought of earlier...

    What constitutes a "tandem rated" fork?

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    One that works for me and my 95lb girlfriend. Of course!
    2 wheels == True

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    Quote Originally Posted by She&I View Post
    What constitutes a "tandem rated" fork?
    A fork the manufacturer will warranty even if they know it is being used on a tandem.

    Beyond that the meaning is pretty flexible. You could say it means that the company has done the research and determined the fork is fit for tandem duty, but I don't know if that's the case 100% of the time. You could also make a case for the variety of tandem/Fox fork users giving it a defacto "tandem" rating. But since people do, IMO the only practical difference is warranty service.

  76. #176
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    If a Fox fork folds in half causing in injuries that result in a lawsuit, Fox would state that the fork is not tandem rated and that they are not liable in any way. I can live with that knowledge and still use their forks. I wouldn't use their 32mm fork on a mtb tandem.
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  77. #177
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    Ebnelson, I'm not familiar with a 34mm Fox Float for a 29'r that is 120mm travel. Or, is your ECDM a 26"?

  78. #178
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    Sorry, 140mm travel reduced. The ECDM 29er handles poorly with the 140mm length from my experience.
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    Correction again. My fork measures 135mm travel. My bad. We originally had the Talas 140 and hated the 140mm setting, preferring to leave it at 110mm. I just ride what my brother sends (works at Fox). No wonder our bike feels tall! It rides well enough now, but I may try to reduce it down to 120mm.
    2 wheels == True

  80. #180
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    Ah, that makes more sense...the new 34mm stanchion options are appealing. I've spent some time researching the X-Fusion Trace RL2. It seems to have all of the desired characteristics to make it tandem friendly; 34mm stanchions, internally adjustable travel from 140mm down to 80mm (you have to open up the fork to make the adjustment - it's not on the fly), all aluminum machined parts inside, an actual damper with an adjustable shim stack and, what I think to be cool, a one-piece tapered crown. Supposed to be a lot stiffer than a two-piece. Anyway, always fun to read about new stuff!

  81. #181
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    FOX 40 Kashima is the fork if you ride a 26. Shortened to a workable length for xc, it is the best MTB fork I have ever ridden. Not perfect but very close.

    Perfect would be adding 3mm more offset to the triple clamps, and reducing the forks lower leg offset by 3mm. Same amount of trail, just more steering lock angle.

    For us, the modified ATC was the way to go on our Fandango. These forks get a bad rep, but once easily sorted out are as reliable, f not more reliable than any fork out there. Hardtail wise they are capable of the speeds, and steering precision is justified in the double crown and fork tube diameters.

    PK
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  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keepiru View Post
    We have a SR Suntour DURO SF9 on our Tandem. Even with the hard spring it was to soft at the beginning, but changing the elastomers to the hard (green) ones did the trick. The fork keeps up hard rides, has low flex and works like a charm.
    We also have a Suntour fork on our Lapierre tandem here in the UK, ours being the Duro FR20, 160mm of travel(coil sprung), 35mm stanchions and 20mm bolt through axle, 1.5" steerer. I've always used Fox forks with air springs on my single bikes but have been very pleased with the performance and plushness of the budget Suntour product. They also produce the Durolux, with air springs and travel adjust if you want to run it lower.

    Suspension Fork Experience - What's Working? What's Not?-lapierre-001.jpg

  83. #183
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    During conversation that didn't take place with a person who doesn't exist a couple of days ago, some information came my way that indicates White Bros may have a 34mm stanchion platform single crown 29'er fork available in the future. If so, I believe a tandem-rated version of that will also be offered. Nothing concrete yet, but I believe it's being looked at. We've expressed our interest in the 29'er version if it becomes available.
    SR/Suntour USA has not been open to the use of their forks on tandems, despite the fact that they're spec'd on euro models. Perhaps it's due to the dedication of US PI attorneys. Either way, as a business, I have to honor the manufacturer's wishes on the use of their products. Believe me, I wish we had more options!
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  84. #184
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    I've been using a Manitou Nixon Platinum fork (145mm travel, air sprung, 20mm hex thru-axle) an our tandem and its been great. The air spring and infinite travel adjust make it easy to adjust. Separate shimmed comp and rebound pistons make it very easy to revalve and the sealed cartridge damper with sprung IFP keep damping consistent even after a few hours on the trail. No doubt its not tandem "approved" but its been working well for us.


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    Just purchased a Manitou Marvel Pro 100mm for our recently acquired Cannondale M1000 XL/M (2006). We're about 320 combined weight. First ride and I could tell the travel was way too soft so I kept the control close to locked out. Also noticed general turning resistance that I hadn't felt when using the stock fork. Could this be due to shortened stem or just the softness of the fork? Will increase air pressure on our next ride.

    Appreciate any feedback on whether this is a good shock for the bike.

    Doug

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by dstke View Post
    ...Will increase air pressure on our next ride...
    Set the pressure so you get your desired amount of sag. Start somewhere around 25% sag and then see how much travel you're using. Tweak from there.

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    Thanks TigWorld. Good rule of thumb. I'm on a mountain bike vacation with single bikes but will try it when I get back.

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    I read info on x-fusion website about their 34mm trace 29er fork. They claim their "unicrown" fork crown makes it 50% stronger in that area. Sounds like it should be strong enough for a tandem. Still I bet they won't authorize that use.

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    We're 340#, new team, riding a 29er Fandango, ours came with a White Brothers Loop twin crown fork. It was very easy to set up, we set the air pressure to 25% sag (75psi), set the rebound in the middle setting, then I vary the compression based on the terrain, usually middle for bumpy slow stuff and more lockout for fast riding.

    I can't really complain about the fork, it is plenty stiff, even pushing hard in tight turns it doesn't flex or get floppy, it stays on the ground and holds a steady line. I'm not sure what more we could want from a fork, maybe lighter or cheaper, but it works well so we'll keep it

  90. #190
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    Need a tandem rated fork - triple clamp 100mm? WB loop for sale. I loved it on the trail but wanted a manual lockout instead of the smart shock

    White brothers WB Loop Tandem Fork 29er 100mm like new Magura Louise disc - Buy and Sell and Review Mountain Bikes and Accessories

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by switchbacktrog View Post
    We also have a Suntour fork on our Lapierre tandem here in the UK, ours being the Duro FR20, 160mm of travel(coil sprung), 35mm stanchions and 20mm bolt through axle, 1.5" steerer. I've always used Fox forks with air springs on my single bikes but have been very pleased with the performance and plushness of the budget Suntour product. They also produce the Durolux, with air springs and travel adjust if you want to run it lower.
    hi,
    i'm thinking of putting this fork in a normal hardtail frame. do you think it would work sufficiently for a single rider as well?
    how hard are the springs compared to normal forks?
    cheers

  92. #192
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    It should be OK. We have the spring wound back to its softest setting to get the right amount of sag. You might need a softer spring, but it depends on your weight really.

  93. #193
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    Wow, not much has changed in fork suspension since the late 90's or has it?

    I have been tandeming since the late 80's. My first tandem was a Ritchey Skyline, worked beautifully, stiff, little flex, put the largest tires possible for the ridged frame and fork. Went down hard one day, my stoker was leaning off the bike in a gravel turn and bam, we got up and his shoulder was broken. Ahh, great memories. Later on, I purchased a Milkelsen tandem frame and built it up in 1997, it was built around 26" wheels. I called Cambria Cycles and asked what suspension fork would work on this bike, Red told me to use the Control Tech leading link fork. I did and it worked well, it was maxed out on air pressure, but it did work well. When we were out of the saddle, you would have the whoosh, whoosh noise of the front fork moving though it's travel. But, this bike handled so well, street and off road. Yes, I could get the front end to push....in the sand. I added yet another tandem in 1997, a Ventana with a Zyzzik (kant remember how to spell it, this fork was stiff, you could hit a curb straight on and the tandem would stall for a split second then roll on. Sold all of the tandems as we had kids and most of our cycling times diminished. Now, the kids are grown, we still have student loans to pay off, but, I just acquired an old Santana Rio, early 90's and searched for an suspension fork for it. I'm still amazed that there is little out there! The problem with the early Santana Rio is that the stock fork won't allow any tire larger than a 1.9" tire. At least if I go with a suspension fork, a 2.4 should work. So, I know that most people don't want to say which fork they are using because they are not tandem specked. Whoa, my question is: Is there any 15mm axle forks out there that will work on a tandem? Thanks, Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199 View Post
    Recently I have had a few converstions about suspension forks on a tandem. I would be interested to hear people's experience with their existing set up.

    1. What fork make/model and what frame make/model?
    1a. single or dual crown
    1b. lock out?
    1c. axle type 20mm thru? 9mm QR?
    2. Team weight?
    3. Type of riding.
    4. Any feedback regarding performance, maintenance etc. (positive or negative).

    I think this type of information on this forum would be extremely valuable.

    Also, feel free to add anything that I missed. And don't be bashfull telling us if you are running a "non-tandem rated" fork. This is an informal poll - you can always hide behind your screen name...

    Thanks!

  94. #194
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    My tandem may not be of help, but a Fox 40 has been serving me quite well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Suspension Fork Experience - What's Working? What's Not?-otter-air-2013-copysm.jpg  

    DW-DHR,VPX,SLX,SX,Stump Jumper ht.,Specialist, Bicycle Fabrications DH Tandem,Gravity Bike,Bamboo 29rs,Profile Uni,Renovo R4.

  95. #195
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    I Can't Believe Someon Used A Rock Shox Indy!

    Check out this ebay listing: Santana Mountain Bike Tandem 26" Suspension Fork Rigid Fork Shimano LX XT XTR | eBay

    The Rock Shox Indy flexed big time on a single bike, wonder how often it bottoms out? Now I would worry about fork breakage on this one!

    Mike

  96. #196
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    We are using a non-approved Fox fork that has worked very, very well for us. It is a Float 29'r set at 130mm with a FIT damper and 34mm stanchions. I notice very little flex except under very hard hits - otherwise it is very stable with the tapered head tube.

    Again, not an approved fork. We are a 280lb team and have had good success.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

  97. #197
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    White Bros Loop

    I have no affiliation with this individual, but am always looking for tandem stuff on local craigs...

    Looks like a fair price for a lightly used White Bros Loop! Applicable to this thread too!

    White Bros dual crown Loop 29er fork

  98. #198
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    Suspension on Cannondale Tandem 29er

    Absolutely love this thread. Learning a lot from those of you contributing to technical setups.

    So, I can get a killer deal on a newer Manitou Dorado Pro. Can anyone give any thoughts or advice as to how this fork would play with my 2014 Cannondale Tandem 29er? I'd greatly appreciate it. I'd like to act quickly on the fork before it's gone, but want to make sure it would be a good setup, or could be tuned to be a good setup, for our tandem.

    @PMK, you've been helpful in recent conversations with a separate thread on fitting tires with this particular bike. You seem to have a lot of experience with suspension setups.

    Suspension Fork Experience - What's Working? What's Not?-img_20141106_162539463_hdr.jpg

  99. #199
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    Once I increased the pressure to a 25% sag I've had no problems with our Manitou Marvel Pro. Note that it did increase the height slightly which was a good thing as with the stock fork the pedals would occasionally hit the ground going over short rollers.

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by iLike29er View Post
    Absolutely love this thread. Learning a lot from those of you contributing to technical setups.

    So, I can get a killer deal on a newer Manitou Dorado Pro. Can anyone give any thoughts or advice as to how this fork would play with my 2014 Cannondale Tandem 29er? I'd greatly appreciate it. I'd like to act quickly on the fork before it's gone, but want to make sure it would be a good setup, or could be tuned to be a good setup, for our tandem.

    @PMK, you've been helpful in recent conversations with a separate thread on fitting tires with this particular bike. You seem to have a lot of experience with suspension setups.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I had Manitou build us a shortened travel version of the Dorado to test out on tandems. In the end, the spring rate was way too linear, and the amount of preload necessary to hold the fork up without having more than 50% sag was well beyond the max recommended pressure in the fork. After some discussion with the folks at Manitou, it was determined that the internals weren't suited for high weight loads and the accompanying pressures. So the chassis of the fork would work, but the guts don't.

    White Bros will soon have the Stoke tandem fork out, and it's travel (100mm) will better match up to the Cannondale's geometry. There are also some other, non-tandem rated forks out there that would probably work better than the Dorado (great DH fork, but not that good as a tandem fork).

    PMK is a suspension wiz!
    MTB Tandems Inc.
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