Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 63
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bacons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    453

    Salsa Tandem? Yep.

    Wow. I would have never expected Salsa to build a mtn. tandem. But here she is...
    Powderkeg | Bikes | Salsa Cycles
    Wonder if they will ever make it fat?

  2. #2
    Wallowa biker
    Reputation: andrusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    21
    Strange entry into the tandem market. A basic wheelset that would be considered wimpy even on a single mountain bike, a rigid fork, and bb7 brakes. This may be fine for gravel grinding but at about the same price a person could have a Fandango DC-9 and be sporting a trail-worthy mountain tandem.

  3. #3
    K&K
    Reputation: ki5ka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    273
    I had the same reaction... and when I look further I see this " Jumps and drops are intended to be less than 61cm (24")." Really!! 23" jumps/drops on a rigid mountain tandem... oh and $4k!!!! scheez
    .

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bacons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    453
    Frameset is $2k?!?!

  5. #5
    K&K
    Reputation: ki5ka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    273
    Bacon, You are correct. I listed the cost of a complete bike.

    Powderkeg | Bikes | Salsa Cycles
    Pricing
    Powderkeg Complete Bike - U.S. MSRP $3999
    Powderkeg Frameset U.S. MSRP $1999
    Availability
    Summer 2015

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    241
    Salsa bikes.... constantly innovating.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,600
    2K for a frameset isn't bad. $300 more than the Fandango. And I guess it is chromoly which gives you a choice of materials.
    The more I ride my 26 inch Tandem the more I think the smaller wheel is stronger and stiffer which is good on a tandem. Perhaps the 27.5 size is going to be the trend.

  8. #8
    MTB Tandem Nut
    Reputation: TandemNut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    670
    Another missed opportunity! You'd think they'd have learned something from watching Cannondale's T29 flop at an even lower price point.
    $2k for an offshore-sourced frame/fork isn't much of a bargain.
    I had planned on carrying these in the shop when we first heard about the project a few years ago, but after seeing the spec and price, I think this tandem will be a hard sell to anyone but the Salsa ...... faithful.
    MTB Tandems Inc.
    678-445-0711
    www.MTBTandems.com

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bacons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    453
    ^Agreed. I really like the brand. We have a Muk and El Mar in our stable... great bikes. But I am scratching my head at the price of the frame alone.

  10. #10
    PMK
    PMK is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,347
    Agree with Tandemnut, kind of may have a cult following. Hardtail tandem, Fandango is the bike, MTBTandems is the place.

    Sorry to sound like an ad, but with a lot of miles on that Fandango before we decided on just two tandems for this old team, that was a great bike that really performed well.

    Both of us still miss it, but our old lower backs are grateful. We did some pretty crazy rides on the Fandango and it always wanted more.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,164
    The 42-pound frame weight kind of turns me off.

    : D

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: switchbacktrog's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by She&I View Post
    The 42-pound frame weight kind of turns me off.

    : D
    That MUST be the weight of the complete bike......................I hope.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,600
    Looking closely at the frame specs their is some enticing stuff. Alternator dropouts for geared, single speed, Rohloff hub etc. 7 water bottle mounts on frame and 2 on fork. This steel frame should be beefy enough for anyone.
    I really don't think they are overpricing the frame at all. What else out there compares? Fandango frame is a great deal but it is aluminum.
    Lots of tandem frames cost a lot more than that.
    Couldn't find the BB height in the specs.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bacons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    453
    Frame weight is 11.16lbs.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    654
    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf View Post
    Looking closely at the frame specs their is some enticing stuff. Alternator dropouts for geared, single speed, Rohloff hub etc. 7 water bottle mounts on frame and 2 on fork. This steel frame should be beefy enough for anyone.
    I really don't think they are overpricing the frame at all. What else out there compares? Fandango frame is a great deal but it is aluminum.
    Lots of tandem frames cost a lot more than that.
    Couldn't find the BB height in the specs.
    There is nothing wrong with Aluminum unless you like a stiff, lightweight frame.

    Fandango is made in the USA, can be had in a variety of colors and "rigging".

    It does not make sense to build a steel hardtail tandem frame in an era when mountain bikers have a choice of so much more and better (Ti, Carbon, Al).

    At the same time, Ventana comes out with a fat tandem in aluminum with adjustable drops, it's also made and the USA, and it costs less.

    Have you seen this frame: Calfee Tetra Hardtail Tandem Frame (27.5")

    Now that's a frame! Of course it's also three times the price of a Fandango, but, it's light and supposedly strong...I ride carbon on my FS 29er, it's nice stuff.

    Santana has a nice history, people know who they are, maybe they're aiming for a different clientele?

  16. #16
    PMK
    PMK is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,347
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    There is nothing wrong with Aluminum unless you like a stiff, lightweight frame.

    Fandango is made in the USA, can be had in a variety of colors and "rigging".

    It does not make sense to build a steel hardtail tandem frame in an era when mountain bikers have a choice of so much more and better (Ti, Carbon, Al).

    At the same time, Ventana comes out with a fat tandem in aluminum with adjustable drops, it's also made and the USA, and it costs less.

    Have you seen this frame: Calfee Tetra Hardtail Tandem Frame (27.5")

    Now that's a frame! Of course it's also three times the price of a Fandango, but, it's light and supposedly strong...I ride carbon on my FS 29er, it's nice stuff.

    Santana
    has a nice history, people know who they are, maybe they're aiming for a different clientele?

    Salsa or Santana...

    Some folks seem to believe this Salsa is something new. The design and prototype is several years old. I chuckled about how many water bottle mounts it has, I may be wrong, but if you install that many bottle cages, is there any room left for frame bags? The machine is being presented as a bikepacking setup. Pretty certain that our Fandango was built that way in 2010, and there have been others that have done some serious bikepacking on the Fandangos.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,164
    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    I chuckled about how many water bottle mounts it has, I may be wrong, but if you install that many bottle cages, is there any room left for frame bags?
    I had that exact thought, PK.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,600
    I am an avid bikepacker and not everyone uses framebags. These mounts will not interfere with putting on a framebag should you want to. And their fork has mounts as well, something many others do not. And without framebags you can pack some serious water along without having to use a hydration pack.
    I am not a Salsa fanboy but they are certainly bringing something different to the table. Lot's of people still prefer steel to other materials. Read up on the materials before you toll the death knell for steel.
    Only time will tell if Salsa has a winner on their hands. They certainly are a big seller in the bikepacking community. Their Fargo is one of the most popular rigs for the Tour Divide race.

  19. #19
    PMK
    PMK is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,347
    We are avid tandem riders (when healthy), and have bikepacked on a tandem. We have ridden steel road tandems and aluminum. I have a pretty good understanding of materials and there properties from my day job.

    Salsa will sell a bunch of these bikes. I am guessing those that have ridden tandems a while will not jump to one.

    All the best with your Powderkeg, and yes, as you said, time will tell.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,600
    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    We are avid tandem riders (when healthy), and have bikepacked on a tandem. We have ridden steel road tandems and aluminum. I have a pretty good understanding of materials and there properties from my day job.

    Salsa will sell a bunch of these bikes. I am guessing those that have ridden tandems a while will not jump to one.

    All the best with your Powderkeg, and yes, as you said, time will tell.

    PK
    Geeeeeeeeeez, lot's of hate for Salsa here. I guess the only ones worth looking at are Fandango, Ventana and Calfee.
    I don't know why you automatically assume that I have a Salsa of any type or will buy one? I don't and probably won't.
    Why don't you tell me why steel is so bad for a bicycle frame particularly one meant for touring? Look at most of the custom touring frames and you will see many of them are steel
    My tandem is an old steel KHS modified with a heavy duty Fox fork, hand built (by me) 36 hole 20 MM through axle to a beefy rim and a thudbuster. The bike works great for us and I don't think we need to upgrade.
    I anticipated this forum to be a little more friendly and open to new things but I guess I was wrong. Sorry about messing with your turf!
    Enjoy your forum!

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bacons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    453
    I think Salsa will have some good success with the bike packing community and sell quite a few. They do steel very well (you can see the Surly influence there). That said. I still think this frame and complete build is a bit pricey.

  22. #22
    PMK
    PMK is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,347
    No Hate.

    Here's the story from Salsa. They have been testing and doing homework. 5 years worth.

    Salsa Cycles

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  23. #23
    K&K
    Reputation: ki5ka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    273
    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf View Post
    Geeeeeeeeeez, lot's of hate for Salsa here. ...
    Enjoy your forum!
    Rich,

    No one here has any motive to be hating on Salsa.

    This is a pretty eclectic bunch here with a lot of experience, and it seems that a lot of us are having the same reaction. This bike, at this price, does not make sense. I think we all appreciate that a manufacturer is interested in what WE are interested in, but it seems they have missed the mark.

    The Cannondale MT800 was pretty much the same bike in aluminium with a killer groupo, and it didn't make it. Despite the great build, we got nowhere with it off paved paths. We tried for several years, making all sorts of modifications, including enormous DH tires that cut into the stays. Just didn't work.

    We got an ECdM and the world changed. We ride more in one week than we rode in a year with the MT800. Riding ANY tandem is challenging enough. Riding single-track... that's a whole magnitude of more bigger challenge (I'm a teacher and I approve of that creative bit of grammar there ).

    FWIW, I will never encourage anyone to spend the money on a rigid tandem mountain bike. I will tell them, "it's worth it! Buy an ECdM! If there were other options, I'm sure I would consider them, but as it is this is the only option, unless you have more money... then look at Calfee.

    There's a lot of experience available here for you to benefit from ... just say'n

    Cheers my friend.

  24. #24
    MTB Tandem Nut
    Reputation: TandemNut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    670
    As noted, there is an invaluable wealth of off-road tandem experience on this (and other) forums. That experience has shown, repeatedly, that certain geometry, components, materials and accommodations make off-road tandeming easier and more fun.

    Frame material choices have changed over the years to the lightest, stiffest platform, since suspension and tires do so much more to handle bumps than frame material ever can. Thus, alloy frames on average-priced stuff and carbon on high-end stuff. Just like with single bikes, tastes have changed and new materials work better. Since tandems place some unique stresses on materials, lateral stiffness is even more important, especially off-road where laser-sharp handling is sometimes critical to a successful line. That's why most tandem frames within the mainstream enthusiast market are alloy, with carbon on the high end.

    From my position, there is some frustration with both Cannondale and Salsa because they keep making (what I consider to be) the same mistakes - inappropriate geometry for true off-roading. In the case of Salsa, they also have chosen a less-efficient frame material, and on top of that, have spec'd the tandem with parts that will likely not hold up to off-roading (or loaded touring, which appears to be the intent of this design).

    It's not like any of this info is secret or anything. These forums are full of the experiences of lots of teams who have learned expensive lessons about what works and what doesn't. A few days spent here would probably save a company a great deal in warranty costs and ill-will. In fact, when Salsa first "leaked" info on this tandem project a few years ago, the feedback they received (many from Salsa fans, since it was leaked on a Salsa forum) mirrored the comments that have been made here since the introduction.

    Since they haven't chosen to pay attention to the experiences of riders who have "been there, done that", one could assume that they either are not very bright (very unlikely - Salsa's a successful brand), or their intended use is not what we think it is. Maybe the best analogy is SUV's; very few people actually use them as they were originally intended, and as a result current designs are not nearly as capable and durable as older ones (electronic aids notwithstanding). but a lot of folks buy that "look". Truthfully, it seems to me that the geometry on this tandem leans more towards gravel grinding, and perhaps dirt touring, not full-on mtb tandeming. From that aspect, I think the Co-Motion Java might be more the intended target of this Salsa tandem, not a Fandango or a Ventana. This is a Tandem Mountain Bike forum, not a tandem touring forum, so one might expect some criticism from the perspective of the members here.

    Salsa will sell these to people who buy Salsa, just like Cannondale did and will do for a bit longer, at least until their US-brand cachet finally wears off and people realize it's another Asian-sourced import. Does where a product is sourced from matter? It does to me, it doesn't to some people.

    I sell most every brand of off-road tandem (or wannabe) made; I'm not too proud - I'm a tandem dealer, after all - if the Salsa is available to me, I'll sell it as well. I'm also very up-front with customers about what a tandem will and won't be good at. And what bothers me most is that some folks will buy these tandems, have an experience that is less than it could have been, and in many cases choose not continue to ride off-road, thinking it's not practical or feasible. And that is lost business and lost opportunity for our niche of the sport.

    Perhaps it's unrealistic to expect everyone here to agree with or support what seems to be an assertion that a KHS with a suspension fork and wheelset upgrade, the new Salsa, The Cannondale T29, or similar products, represent a good off-road tandem platform in the wider context of what's available now, and especially within the context of the style of riding many on this forum participate in. From the point of view of many on this forum, the new products we're seeing aren't even as good as what's already available for what we use them for. Like all enthusiasts, we look forward to new and better products being introduced.

    The members here speak from their own and shared experiences, and those experiences are very valid (and valuable).
    MTB Tandems Inc.
    678-445-0711
    www.MTBTandems.com

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ds2199's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    762
    As others have said, it's not about "hate". Just experience with other designs, build specs and perceived value.

    The combination of those things has lead me to the tandems that we own now.

    I get frustrated when the forums become rants and things get sideways. The knowledge and experience on these forums CAN be extremely valuable. Other times, you just have to wade through it and move on. We all have opinions. Some based on a wealth of experience and others not.

    I generally choose not to get engaged in the "hate".

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Custom Tandem Roof Rack: Carries the Tandem with the Wheels On!
    By Nurse Ben in forum Tandem Mountain Bikes
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-04-2014, 02:34 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-28-2013, 07:57 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-28-2012, 12:05 PM
  4. Salsa El Mariachi Tandem 29er
    By lawfarm in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-30-2012, 07:51 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-30-2011, 10:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •