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Salsa Tandem? Yep.

17K views 92 replies 32 participants last post by  Johnbonn 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Strange entry into the tandem market. A basic wheelset that would be considered wimpy even on a single mountain bike, a rigid fork, and bb7 brakes. This may be fine for gravel grinding but at about the same price a person could have a Fandango DC-9 and be sporting a trail-worthy mountain tandem.
 
#7 ·
2K for a frameset isn't bad. $300 more than the Fandango. And I guess it is chromoly which gives you a choice of materials.
The more I ride my 26 inch Tandem the more I think the smaller wheel is stronger and stiffer which is good on a tandem. Perhaps the 27.5 size is going to be the trend.
 
#8 ·
Another missed opportunity! You'd think they'd have learned something from watching Cannondale's T29 flop at an even lower price point.
$2k for an offshore-sourced frame/fork isn't much of a bargain.
I had planned on carrying these in the shop when we first heard about the project a few years ago, but after seeing the spec and price, I think this tandem will be a hard sell to anyone but the Salsa ...... faithful.
 
#10 ·
Agree with Tandemnut, kind of may have a cult following. Hardtail tandem, Fandango is the bike, MTBTandems is the place.

Sorry to sound like an ad, but with a lot of miles on that Fandango before we decided on just two tandems for this old team, that was a great bike that really performed well.

Both of us still miss it, but our old lower backs are grateful. We did some pretty crazy rides on the Fandango and it always wanted more.

PK
 
#13 ·
Looking closely at the frame specs their is some enticing stuff. Alternator dropouts for geared, single speed, Rohloff hub etc. 7 water bottle mounts on frame and 2 on fork. This steel frame should be beefy enough for anyone.
I really don't think they are overpricing the frame at all. What else out there compares? Fandango frame is a great deal but it is aluminum.
Lots of tandem frames cost a lot more than that.
Couldn't find the BB height in the specs.
 
#15 ·
There is nothing wrong with Aluminum unless you like a stiff, lightweight frame.

Fandango is made in the USA, can be had in a variety of colors and "rigging".

It does not make sense to build a steel hardtail tandem frame in an era when mountain bikers have a choice of so much more and better (Ti, Carbon, Al).

At the same time, Ventana comes out with a fat tandem in aluminum with adjustable drops, it's also made and the USA, and it costs less.

Have you seen this frame: Calfee Tetra Hardtail Tandem Frame (27.5")

Now that's a frame! Of course it's also three times the price of a Fandango, but, it's light and supposedly strong...I ride carbon on my FS 29er, it's nice stuff.

Santana has a nice history, people know who they are, maybe they're aiming for a different clientele?
 
#18 ·
I am an avid bikepacker and not everyone uses framebags. These mounts will not interfere with putting on a framebag should you want to. And their fork has mounts as well, something many others do not. And without framebags you can pack some serious water along without having to use a hydration pack.
I am not a Salsa fanboy but they are certainly bringing something different to the table. Lot's of people still prefer steel to other materials. Read up on the materials before you toll the death knell for steel.
Only time will tell if Salsa has a winner on their hands. They certainly are a big seller in the bikepacking community. Their Fargo is one of the most popular rigs for the Tour Divide race.
 
#19 ·
We are avid tandem riders (when healthy), and have bikepacked on a tandem. We have ridden steel road tandems and aluminum. I have a pretty good understanding of materials and there properties from my day job.

Salsa will sell a bunch of these bikes. I am guessing those that have ridden tandems a while will not jump to one.

All the best with your Powderkeg, and yes, as you said, time will tell.

PK
 
#20 ·
Geeeeeeeeeez, lot's of hate for Salsa here. I guess the only ones worth looking at are Fandango, Ventana and Calfee.
I don't know why you automatically assume that I have a Salsa of any type or will buy one? I don't and probably won't.
Why don't you tell me why steel is so bad for a bicycle frame particularly one meant for touring? Look at most of the custom touring frames and you will see many of them are steel
My tandem is an old steel KHS modified with a heavy duty Fox fork, hand built (by me) 36 hole 20 MM through axle to a beefy rim and a thudbuster. The bike works great for us and I don't think we need to upgrade.
I anticipated this forum to be a little more friendly and open to new things but I guess I was wrong. Sorry about messing with your turf!
Enjoy your forum!
 
#24 ·
As noted, there is an invaluable wealth of off-road tandem experience on this (and other) forums. That experience has shown, repeatedly, that certain geometry, components, materials and accommodations make off-road tandeming easier and more fun.

Frame material choices have changed over the years to the lightest, stiffest platform, since suspension and tires do so much more to handle bumps than frame material ever can. Thus, alloy frames on average-priced stuff and carbon on high-end stuff. Just like with single bikes, tastes have changed and new materials work better. Since tandems place some unique stresses on materials, lateral stiffness is even more important, especially off-road where laser-sharp handling is sometimes critical to a successful line. That's why most tandem frames within the mainstream enthusiast market are alloy, with carbon on the high end.

From my position, there is some frustration with both Cannondale and Salsa because they keep making (what I consider to be) the same mistakes - inappropriate geometry for true off-roading. In the case of Salsa, they also have chosen a less-efficient frame material, and on top of that, have spec'd the tandem with parts that will likely not hold up to off-roading (or loaded touring, which appears to be the intent of this design).

It's not like any of this info is secret or anything. These forums are full of the experiences of lots of teams who have learned expensive lessons about what works and what doesn't. A few days spent here would probably save a company a great deal in warranty costs and ill-will. In fact, when Salsa first "leaked" info on this tandem project a few years ago, the feedback they received (many from Salsa fans, since it was leaked on a Salsa forum) mirrored the comments that have been made here since the introduction.

Since they haven't chosen to pay attention to the experiences of riders who have "been there, done that", one could assume that they either are not very bright (very unlikely - Salsa's a successful brand), or their intended use is not what we think it is. Maybe the best analogy is SUV's; very few people actually use them as they were originally intended, and as a result current designs are not nearly as capable and durable as older ones (electronic aids notwithstanding). but a lot of folks buy that "look". Truthfully, it seems to me that the geometry on this tandem leans more towards gravel grinding, and perhaps dirt touring, not full-on mtb tandeming. From that aspect, I think the Co-Motion Java might be more the intended target of this Salsa tandem, not a Fandango or a Ventana. This is a Tandem Mountain Bike forum, not a tandem touring forum, so one might expect some criticism from the perspective of the members here.

Salsa will sell these to people who buy Salsa, just like Cannondale did and will do for a bit longer, at least until their US-brand cachet finally wears off and people realize it's another Asian-sourced import. Does where a product is sourced from matter? It does to me, it doesn't to some people.

I sell most every brand of off-road tandem (or wannabe) made; I'm not too proud - I'm a tandem dealer, after all - if the Salsa is available to me, I'll sell it as well. I'm also very up-front with customers about what a tandem will and won't be good at. And what bothers me most is that some folks will buy these tandems, have an experience that is less than it could have been, and in many cases choose not continue to ride off-road, thinking it's not practical or feasible. And that is lost business and lost opportunity for our niche of the sport.

Perhaps it's unrealistic to expect everyone here to agree with or support what seems to be an assertion that a KHS with a suspension fork and wheelset upgrade, the new Salsa, The Cannondale T29, or similar products, represent a good off-road tandem platform in the wider context of what's available now, and especially within the context of the style of riding many on this forum participate in. From the point of view of many on this forum, the new products we're seeing aren't even as good as what's already available for what we use them for. Like all enthusiasts, we look forward to new and better products being introduced.

The members here speak from their own and shared experiences, and those experiences are very valid (and valuable).
 
#26 · (Edited)
I am willing to take our modified tandem and tandem team against you "experts" out there. You can blather on endlessly about stupid reasons why a particular bike won't work or is a bad value (such as why would you want 7 water bottle mounts because of the frame bag situation). Seriously the Salsa frame at only $300 more than the Fandango which includes a beefy rigid fork and is not that much more in the whole scheme of things so this "expensive" argument really doesn't hold much water.. Don't like their whole bike spec but like their frame, then buy the frame and build it up the way you want.

My new front end on my KHS has dramatically changed what our bike is capable of. The front end of a tandem is so much a part of the equation. Our new front end is stiffer in every-way, and floats over just about everything. It even feels stiffer than my single bike. I think it is much superior to the fork that comes stock on the Fandango. What specifically about the Fandango is going to get us up the hills quicker, down the hills quicker and around the corners quicker?
I laugh when a friend gets a brand new bike and tells me how much faster he is on it only to see him just as far back as he always was. To me the only thing that will make a mountain bike significantly faster (once you get to a reasonably put together bike) is suspension for downhills or putting some training time in (you know actually riding the damn thing)
Have fun folks, we are going out riding even though Alex doesn't think that our tandem is off road worthy. I also think that there is an invaluable wealth of mis information on this and other forums.
 

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#25 ·
As others have said, it's not about "hate". Just experience with other designs, build specs and perceived value.

The combination of those things has lead me to the tandems that we own now.

I get frustrated when the forums become rants and things get sideways. The knowledge and experience on these forums CAN be extremely valuable. Other times, you just have to wade through it and move on. We all have opinions. Some based on a wealth of experience and others not.

I generally choose not to get engaged in the "hate".
 
#28 ·
Rich, you sound simply butt-hurt over the fact that nobody went gaga over the Salsa tandem, then you accuse everyone who didn't (or those who made various random observations or musings) as "hating," and ultimately propose some sort of tandem riding dick measuring contest.

Get over your ultra-experienced self. Enjoy the diverse and experienced opinions here, and be one of them. Or take your present attitude and GTFO like you inferred you would.

Cheers,

Mike
 
#32 ·
richwolf,

If you wish to discuss the subject of this thread, here is the place to do it — not through PM to me. You appear to have some legit complaints with how this thread went down, so why not sack up and agree to disagree with a few people here? Complaining to me won't do jack. Stop being the only whining person on the tandems board and share your opinion like the rest of us blathering, silly riders.

Cheers again,

Mike
 
#33 ·
richwolf,

If you wish to discuss the subject of this thread, here is the place to do it - not through PM to me. You appear to have some legit complaints with how this thread went down, so why not sack up and agree to disagree with a few people here? Complaining to me won't do jack. Stop being the only whining person on the tandems board and share your opinion like the rest of us blathering, silly riders.

Cheers again,

Mike
I have never had anyone complain about a PM before. I have had several people PM me and never thought it a big deal to be brought up to everyone's attention but here is the PM I sent She&I

"I am not butt hurt over the Salsa or what people think about it, but many of the comments seemed to have been made out of dislike for anything not Ventana or Fandango. For people to call the Salsa frameset (with fork) at only $300 more than the Fandango "pricey" seems ridiculous. How many quality Tandem frames come in under $2K? And the comment about how ridiculous 7 water bottle mounts was even sillier. Like I said the proof will be in the pudding, and either people will like them or not, but for people to make huge judgement calls about a product without trying it out seems a little premature.
I also found your comment in your response offensive. My point was that once you get to a certain quality level in a bike that the motor has a lot more to do than anything.
I asked Alex how a Fandango compared to my setup would make us faster downhill, uphill or in the turns and he failed to address any of those questions. It was the perfect opportunity for him to showcase how his bike is superior and why.
If I were to look at a new bike I would strongly consider a ventana FS in 26 inch wheel size but at this point ours works great and I would rather spend the money on going places.
And yes I will not post on this forum anymore."
 
#34 ·
We started off-road riding on a KHS that I swapped a suspension fork onto. Added disc brakes. Bars to suit, a rear suspension post for the stoker. We were limited in what trails we could ride while keeping my stoker happy AND seated. We bought up to an ECdM and I can tell you it's a dramatic improvement for us, how we ride, where we ride, and the speed at which we can ride.

Not recognizing that there are many people here who started out on a lower-end bike and do honestly have that experience under their belts and found reasons to upgrade is unfortunate for you. Doubly so since you seem to be trashing people here because you seem to feel everyone here is blind to anything but Ventana. And also, perhaps, ignoring the actual/factual reasons that may well be.

If you're happy with your current ride, that is actually all that matters.

...but, just maybe, you don't know what you're missing in having a bike that's more suited to off-road riding than the KHS. Remember, I speak from experience.
 
#39 ·
I like Salsa bikes, nearly got a Spearfish when they first came out. At the time they seemed like the best value around, for what I wanted.

I saw different versions of this tandem teased a couple years ago. The right side timing chain with 2 x gearing looked sweet.

This bike just doesn't seem like a good value, especially compared to Fandango for trail riding or a Cannondale 29er for easy trails and gravel grinding. If the Salsa was $500 - $800 cheaper then I'd take a closer look.

Speaking of gravel grinding. We recently slapped some CX tires on our road tandem and it worked great for gravel. A buddy built up a wheelset for his road tandem and it worked great on the gravel for him and his son. If I were looking for something new for mostly gravel I'd probably get the Cannondale for under $3K, street price.
 

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#40 ·
So I guess Richwolf is a NO for the next AORTA? Sorry I could not resist : ) The KHS is great if that is the terrain you are riding but I don't think it would do well on some rough single track like this (yes I took this opportunity to repost this pic of us cause I like it! LOL)

If you are still here RW, this is a great group and I have had the pleasure of meeting just a handful. If the KHS works for you then ride the wheels off of it. We have a Trek T1000 road tandem and would love to have a Co Motion or DaVinci ...BUT ... it will not make us any faster. These two old, fat, motors just do the best the can. And, if you decide to try and make the next AORTA then I will buy your first drink!
 

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