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Thread: The ECDM thread

  1. #401
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    PMK has talked about bending the upper shock bolt and had ordered up some spares. He may still have some.

  2. #402
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    The ECDM thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine View Post
    PMK has talked about bending the upper shock bolt and had ordered up some spares. He may still have some.
    I'm planning g to get a Cane Creek shock, which I believe comes with its own hardware (bolt too? IDK). So for the time being ill use my loaner part.

    Paul, is your replacement bolts any stronger? Is the original stainless?
    --Reamer

  3. #403
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    I have US made high quality bolts. I replaced the shock mount and all the pivots.

    Had to buy full boxes and have a bunch left.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  4. #404
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    Mounted up my new shock today. I have yet to ride it due to stoker availability.

    Cane Creek DB Air CS.

    I will report results

    --Reamer

  5. #405
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    Very Very Nice...
    PK
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  6. #406
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    This may be worth of a new thread. Looking forward to hear the details on this shock!

  7. #407
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    I believe that CC may become the stock shock on ECDM's at some point...
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  8. #408
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    Yes please reamer41, Do tell!!
    Ed and Pat
    the Snot Rocket tandem

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemNut View Post
    I believe that CC may become the stock shock on ECDM's at some point...

    Recently read that the Cane Creeks are an option on some of the Ventana single bike models.

    PK
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  10. #410
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    I've got a CC BB Inline on my Santa Cruz Tallboy LT and it a huge improvement over the Fox RP23.

    I'll start a new thread with my ride report(s). We should be going out imminently.
    --Reamer

  11. #411
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    ECDM 27.5 with electrical assistance

    After a Rohloff I'm trying an electrical rear wheel on my ECDM 27.5
    I've discovered electrical assistance on my HiBike n'duro. It's really fun to go faster and further for the same amount of time while still pedaling and having a fitness improvement. With that you can have bigger wheel and a bigger fork (let say a Fox 40) without worrying about weight penality.

    My only worry if the freewheel will take the abuse of a tandem crew..... will see, I still have my Rohloff ready !!!

    Laurent
    The ECDM thread-p1050710.jpg

  12. #412
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    Now in 5" Travel "Beast Mode"

    The ECDM thread-ecdm_5in.jpg

    5" rockers installed. Hopefully dry trails by the end of the week to try it out.
    2 wheels == True

  13. #413
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    Sweet! We have been running 5" for about 6 years now. I actually like the rear suspension compression rate better in long travel.

  14. #414
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    The bike has been good on ledgey rock drops, but should be better now. I wanted to lengthen the fork travel from 120 to 140 mm after riding the Captain Ahab trail in Moab. We had to get off the bike around 15 times with many times just not being sure if the bike would clear a drop or step up. Now we'll only have to get off the bike 12 times on Ahab. :-) I'll carry a shock pump for tuning on the first couple of rides. If it works out, our benchmark ride will be the Bitterbush Trail at Hall Ranch in Lyons. We ride Hall Ranch but have been using the Antelope Trail to stay clear of Bitterbush.

    The stand over clearance is now about as minimal as I can handle with in the driveway. The head angle is just a little bit more slack. I've got to find my angle finder and get a volunteer to help measure the sagged angles and BB height.
    2 wheels == True

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebnelson View Post
    The stand over clearance is now about as minimal as I can handle with in the driveway. The head angle is just a little bit more slack. I've got to find my angle finder and get a volunteer to help measure the sagged angles and BB height.
    I'm assuming that the static stand-over height is 1" higher than standard for the stoker, am I correct?

    Is the head angle slacker or steeper? I would have thought it would be steeper with the rear propped-up more.

    What size wheels are you using?

    I'm running a 140mm fork with 26" wheels and wondered if having 5" rockers would balance the geometry nearer to the design spec. More in this thread ECDM Geometry

    Does anyone know the cost of the 5" rockers from Ventana?

    Sorry for all the questions, but I need as much info as possible before changing anything else geometry wise. I don't want go spending money unnecessarily.........................

  16. #416
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    The 5" rockers are $170 and come with new hardware. The un-sagged stoker BB height is 16.5" and the captain is around 17". I expect sagged heights to be around 15" for captain and stoker BBs. The bike is a 29er. On flat ground I can get ON/OFF the bike no problem but my nuts are on the top tube for sure. I'm not worried about stand-over but thought I'd mention it.

    I pulled 2 travel reduce spacers from our Fox 36 per Fox instructions. I haven't measured the new travel year but expected to raise the front the same amount as the rear. It looks like the front was raised a bit more than the rear. However, the head angle is still pretty steep. I believe it is 71 degrees now /w sag. Going slack HA doesn't work well during slow speed maneuvering for us.
    2 wheels == True

  17. #417
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    I found used rockers from an El Ciclon for about $50. It was a really easy change. It took a while to get the new pressure figured as it went up even more than expected. I noticed no geometry change at all. As I mentioned, I (and my stoker) liked the much more supple feeling of the 5" rear.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trails4Two View Post
    I found used rockers from an El Ciclon for about $50. It was a really easy change. It took a while to get the new pressure figured as it went up even more than expected. I noticed no geometry change at all. As I mentioned, I (and my stoker) liked the much more supple feeling of the 5" rear.
    Also bought used for 50 bucks.
    Did notice and like a higher ride height in the back. Helps as we have longer travel fork.

    At our team weight (365-70) found the higher leverage kind of overwhelmed the fox rp23
    --Reamer

  19. #419
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    We also ride a longer travel fork (150-170mm) and thought the front and rear suspension matched better at 5". Our team is about 310 and the RP23 works fine

  20. #420
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    It does seem the higher leverage may get us to pump the RP23 up a bit more. Our team is 250lbs and we normally used 160-180lbs in the shock. I'm excited to get out and experiment with the new rockers. I have no idea whether the rockers from a previous model 26" bike would work with the ECDM 29er. Seems like it would. I was surprised to find that with my lightweight stoker the shock bolt was still straight after almost 3 years of riding rocky terrain and the nearby bike park.
    2 wheels == True

  21. #421
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    What Maxxis tires are you Guys running?
    I have been using Conti X-Kings 2.4 and want to try out some Maxxis now...

  22. #422
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    Ardent 2.4. They have been a pretty good all around tire so far.
    2 wheels == True

  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebnelson View Post
    On flat ground I can get ON/OFF the bike no problem but my nuts are on the top tube for sure. I'm not worried about stand-over but thought I'd mention it.
    So is it as simple as the un-sagged stand-over height for the stoker reducing by 1" when using the 5" rockers?

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by XC Mike View Post
    What Maxxis tires are you Guys running?
    I have been using Conti X-Kings 2.4 and want to try out some Maxxis now...
    Summer:
    2.25 Cross-Mark on rear
    2.4 Ardent on front

    Winter:
    2.4 Ardent on rear
    2.4 Minion DHF on front

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by switchbacktrog View Post
    So is it as simple as the un-sagged stand-over height for the stoker reducing by 1" when using the 5" rockers?
    It's somewhere between .75-1.0 inch of lost stand over clearance since the rear wheel path isn't vertical. I don't remember the 4" rocker stoker stand over clearance. My stoker has plenty of stand over clearance still with the 5" rockers.
    2 wheels == True

  26. #426
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    The 5" linkages really helped in technical climbing and descending on our rides over the weekend. It's nice approaching a rock step up and know that I can punch it up with much less risk of stoker pedal strike. The first couple of larger drops I tried were eye opening too. The bike is a lot more capable in rocky terrain overall. Our more technical trails tend to have tighter switch backs, which is no surprise, so we end up off the bike for those turns.

    We had to raise the rear shock pressure from 165 psi for the 4" linkages to 250 psi for the 5" linkages. The compression damping is now not enough and the rebound had to be increased from all the way backed off up a lot of clicks. We will either retune or replace the rear shock.

    On high speed sweeping turns the bike is not as stable but we are probably still going just as fast. Our back tire is a bit worn now so new rubber might help. Retuned rear suspension will probably help a lot too.
    2 wheels == True

  27. #427
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    Thanks for the update, seriously tempted to try the 5" rockers on our 26". A reduction in pedal strikes would be welcome, and perhaps it will provide a better travel balance with the 140mm fork.

  28. #428
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    Hi fellow ECDM owners. Thanks for the interesting thoughts and reading this thread has motivated me to get the 5" rockers which I didn't even realise existed. Thanks for that insight. They arrived today but it will be a few weeks until I can install them but I will give feedback then.
    I have a new Fox rear shock which has 57mm travel rather than the standard 50mm so with the 5" rocker that should increase rear travel by 17mm to a total of about 142mm.
    I have also recently purchased a new fork and have gone for the FOX 40 which is considerably longer and potentially 203 travel. I am hoping to be able to adjust that back a little. All in all an expensive complete suspension upgrade so I'm keen to see how it all performs.

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnome View Post
    .
    I have a new Fox rear shock which has 57mm travel rather than the standard 50mm so with the 5" rocker that should increase rear travel by 17mm to a total of about 142mm.
    Make sure to cycle the suspension thru it's full range with no air in the shock with that 57mm shock.

    I mounted a shock that had the same eye to eye length and 57mm stroke. When I swing the suspension there was hard metal to metal contact. I have the 5" rockers too. Seat stay hit seattube. Needless to say I removed the shock and stuck with a 50mm shock.

    --Charlie
    --Reamer

  30. #430
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    And/or doublecheck with Ventana. I have an X5 with 5" rockers and it takes the same shock as our ECdM.

  31. #431
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    I used the same shock with the 5" rocker. A longer shock eye to eye would jack the stoker BB up even higher when un-sagged. We have an issue with our 5" rockers where the chain rubs the bottom of the front derailleur cage even when sagged if we are more than half way down the cassette when on the smaller 2x chainring. This is a bummer since with our 2x chainring set up we were able to use every gear combo with the 4" rockers. I'm going to play with a XX1 drive train to see if we can live without top end gears.
    2 wheels == True

  32. #432
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    Hi guys, what's the current best front fork for the ECDM? Fox 36? Fox 40? White Brothers Loop?

    I thought the Fox 36 wasn't "Tandem Rated" but it seems many are using it and it's holding up.... Fox 40 looks beefy, any issues with geometry or it hitting the frame at sharp angles?

    Thanks,
    John

  33. #433
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    Rockshox Pike is working well.................not tandem rated either.

  34. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebnelson View Post
    I used the same shock with the 5" rocker. A longer shock eye to eye would jack the stoker BB up even higher when un-sagged. We have an issue with our 5" rockers where the chain rubs the bottom of the front derailleur cage even when sagged if we are more than half way down the cassette when on the smaller 2x chainring. This is a bummer since with our 2x chainring set up we were able to use every gear combo with the 4" rockers. I'm going to play with a XX1 drive train to see if we can live without top end gears.
    Turns out we really like the XX1 cassette on the ECDM. Our chainring is a 28T. A slight grade downhill on the road had us coasting instead of spinning but it wasn't nearly as bad as I had imagined before trying the gearing. We only have a sample of one ride. So far so good!
    2 wheels == True

  35. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebnelson View Post
    Turns out we really like the XX1 cassette on the ECDM. Our chainring is a 28T. A slight grade downhill on the road had us coasting instead of spinning but it wasn't nearly as bad as I had imagined before trying the gearing. We only have a sample of one ride. So far so good!
    The biggest question I have is the durability of the XX1 cassette. I guess the freehub body of the XD driver hub too. Interested to hear how this works out.

  36. #436
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    Durability is certainly a concern. Sram's new XG-1150 may be more durable. It's certainly more heavy. The XD driver, I don't know. We are using Hope Pro II hubs which have mixed reliability reports. I've never had a problem with them.

    For my team, I'm fairly confident things will work as reliably as they do for a stronger single rider. We've been using a PowerTap hub on the road bike for the last month and it seems like our functional threshold power is around 340W, which is pretty low. The peaks aren't really all that either. With my 90lb stoker we aren't going to break much gear. Good thing Traci doesn't read this forum!
    2 wheels == True

  37. #437
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    Just wanna run this by you guys to see if I am missing anything...

    I'm getting a new ECDM 29er and want to put a 2016 Fox 36 Fork on it. Looking at the Talas option which I see has a 160/130 travel option. So, since Ventana says their frame is good for up to 120mm, then I'll set the Talas to 130 and that should be good without messing up my geometry too much. Right????

    Am I missing anything or any better recommendations?

    The Wife and I are 280lbs combined.

    Thanks in advance!

    John

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by graciejohn View Post
    Just wanna run this by you guys to see if I am missing anything...

    I'm getting a new ECDM 29er and want to put a 2016 Fox 36 Fork on it. Looking at the Talas option which I see has a 160/130 travel option. So, since Ventana says their frame is good for up to 120mm, then I'll set the Talas to 130 and that should be good without messing up my geometry too much. Right????

    Am I missing anything or any better recommendations?

    The Wife and I are 280lbs combined.

    Thanks in advance!

    John
    If you're going to go with the Fox, I would skip the Talas and buy the Float that is set at 140 and rhen reduce it down to 120mm. We are also 285 and have been very pleased with the float set at 120.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  39. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhopton View Post
    If you're going to go with the Fox, I would skip the Talas and buy the Float that is set at 140 and rhen reduce it down to 120mm. We are also 285 and have been very pleased with the float set at 120.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    + 1 on Skipping the Talas.

  40. #440
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    We've done as mhopton suggests and I feel that is the best approach. The latest Talas spring is way better than previous versions but I don't see the need on the ECDM. The Float is easy for a home mechanic to adjust the axle to crown length to match Ventana geometry and the air spring rate to match team preferences.
    2 wheels == True

  41. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhopton View Post
    If you're going to go with the Fox, I would skip the Talas and buy the Float that is set at 140 and rhen reduce it down to 120mm. We are also 285 and have been very pleased with the float set at 120.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    This.
    You can change in 10mm increments.
    --Reamer

  42. #442
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    Awesome. Thanks for the input guys!

  43. #443
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    I've got the 3/4/5 rocker and have had it set at 5" since i bought it and she rides great. i have an ATC Racing T-5 fork. it's at 6" travel stock.

  44. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by freerider1 View Post
    I've got the 3/4/5 rocker and have had it set at 5" since i bought it and she rides great. i have an ATC Racing T-5 fork. it's at 6" travel stock.
    The ATC can be a great fork. Not quite Fox 40 good but still very good. I have two ATC's sitting in the garage. One is has modified internals, the other is stock.

    Without doubt, the ATC is the stiffest fork with the most versatility, fits all the wheels sizes 26",27.5", 29".

    PK
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  45. #445
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    I have the option to buy a used ECdM ('04) w/Marz DJ-1 or a used El Testigo ('02) w/triple crown Stratos. I'm new to tandems and am buying for the purpose of being able to share rides with my kids (10, 8, 18mo, 6mo...) and still get a workout in. Had a blast this past weekend with the 8 yo on a trail-a-bike behind my 6" travel bike, on rough technical terrain and am convinced that one of the above will be even better.

    I've talked with a few people and apples to apples, most opinions have me leaning towards the ECdM. However, the part of me that likes "long travel" bikes and technical terrain makes the Testigo sound appealing. It seems that maybe some of the original drawbacks of "wallowy & too much travel" for a tandem could be mitigated with a modern valved rear shock?

    Also ebay still has a few 1-1/8 steer tubed RS Lyriks, Totem's, FOX 36's etc. So on either bike I could still upgrade to a 6" travel single crown front fork if I wanted to. Which it seems like some of you have done on your ECdM's.

    Conveniently, my current bike has an older 6" travel Lyrik w/20mm thru-axle so if I got the ECdM and decided I wanted more travel, I could swap it out pretty easily, to see what I think.

    Thoughts opinions??
    Many thanks.

  46. #446
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    Are you really going to use 6" of travel with a 10/8 year old on the back? Would a very light stoker even actuate suspension to that level? And if not, would the bike ride very weird with the weight bias versus travel used?

  47. #447
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    I would highly suggest test riding the two bikes if possible. While both are fs mtn tandems they ride/handle quite a bit different from one another. My guess is you will be able to select the one that suits you best after a test ride.

  48. #448
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    Okayfine, I don't see why not with a properly adjusted spring-rate. Seems that a lot of people are using 6" travel forks up front on ECdM's and there's a lot of talk about these "5-in rockers" for the back to increase travel... So yeah. I'm just looking for thoughts from those who have experience.

  49. #449
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    Stevoo, Both options are far, far away.

  50. #450
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    Another summer coming, another maintenance check in preparation. Chains, cables, shock air sleeve kit - all the usual bits. I still need to service the fork, but the surprising bit was finding that the front BB was nearly seized.

    I had noticed it was stiffer to backpedal over the last few rides, but there was time to figure it out or time to ride (but not both) and spinning the rear wheel itself was free and normal. Figuring the stoker BB was toast (a Gigipipe DH, we've been through a couple), I removed the sync chain for cleaning and found that the captain's BB was bad.

    This was surprising for two reasons: 1-it's an SKF, and 2-it made no noise while dying. Usually I get audible clues that a BB is going bad.

    Pulling the SKF out (had been in for about six years), I could not hold the BB body and turn the axle by hand, I needed the crank arm on for leverage. The bike sees no water or even mud (we live in SoCal, it doesn't rain here anymore) and I don't powerwash the bike clean.

    Weird failure, but I had four Gigipipe DH BBs in my parts drawer, ready to go, because BTDT...

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