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Thread: The ECDM thread

  1. #151
    J&L
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    What are your thoughts about using something like Frame Saver? Looking into the tubes of our new S&S you can already see some signs of oxidation.

  2. #152
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    I hadn't even thought about it. Alex would probably be the best data point for this, though I can send an e-mail to Teresa to get Ventana's take. While there's a big difference between oxidation, surface corrosion, and major rust, we're looking at our new frame as our frame for the next 20 years.

  3. #153
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    Expensive frames oxidize. Other frames rust. But after 20 yrs, I bet it's all the same.

    I asked Alex and he said he didn't think they were treated. There seemed to be many postings on other forums recommending it. But after spending the past week applying it I wonder. On the tubes that I can see in, it is a very thin coating and will probably do the job. Also I got to watch how the fluid flows. On the tubes you cannot see inside of, I really wonder how complete a coating people really do?

    If it is something really useful, Ventana or Alex could offer it as a value added option. It would certainly be worth it, as it was somewhat time consuming. Plus with experience, I bet they would do a better job than us "firsttimers" would do.

  4. #154
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyJ
    I guess this refresh will apply across the board (from singles to tandems):

    While riding today, I wondered if anyone makes 30.9 stoker stems or if these will be a Ventana manufactured item.

    Current size is 27.2

    Our Co-Mo is I believe 29.8 or 28.9 so I wonder who offers these stems.

    28.6 is 1 1/8 so standard stuff is a no go,

    31.8 is 1 1/4.

    Control Tech only shows 29.8 or 31.6, so I guess it's control tech with a shim of 30.9 to 31.6. .7mm total or .35mm on radius, so cut a soda or beer can with scissors and see how close she comes.

    Not sure what a Santana size is, but doubt it's 30.9.

    I don't know if RE will do a mountain stoker stem.

    PK

  5. #155
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    Our steel Burley Rumba S&S coupled road tandem was starting to rust inside after a very wet Hawaii trip. After that I used the framesaver stuff on it. Of course, it was much easier to apply on an S&S coupled frame. I've started using it on our steel single bikes because of that. I haven't noticed any corrosion in our aluminum framed bikes so I haven't bothered to treat any of them. I was thinking of drilling drainage holes in the bottom brackets though.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    While riding today, I wondered if anyone makes 30.9 stoker stems or if these will be a Ventana manufactured item.
    More conjecture...

    I think it would be safe to assume that the 30.9 seattube on solo FS frames would be to allow the use of dropper seatposts.

    Could they apply to Ventana FS tandems? I know for a fact they'd be handy around my neck of the woods. If indeed FS tandems will at some point allow this, there'll have to be some other way to attach a stoker stem, where the most common solution seems to be some form of dummy steerer...

  7. #157
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyJ
    More conjecture...

    I think it would be safe to assume that the 30.9 seattube on solo FS frames would be to allow the use of dropper seatposts.

    Could they apply to Ventana FS tandems? I know for a fact they'd be handy around my neck of the woods. If indeed FS tandems will at some point allow this, there'll have to be some other way to attach a stoker stem, where the most common solution seems to be some form of dummy steerer...

    Yes conjecture...

    The larger seatpost would also be a compliment to the aluminum frame.

    I forgot about those droppers seatposts...where we live and ride they fell off the map around 1992. Seems they are making a come back in some parts of the country / world though.

    PK
    Last edited by PMK; 02-06-2011 at 05:12 AM.

  8. #158
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    I asked about the tandem changes and Teresa mentioned going to three standard sizes, the bigger seat post size, tapered head tube, and some other stuff.

    Paul, the frame went to New York, unfortunately.
    Cool the frame went to the Northeast, that area has quite a following or leading depending upon how strong a team they are of tandems, both dirty and polished.

    Maybe Ed knows the new owner.

    PK

  9. #159
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    Hi Paul,
    I don't know of any new MTB tandem users here but we are just beginning to see bare ground so we may actually get on the trails within a week or two. We have been using the Ventana on the road locally as our Co Mo road tandem is a steel frame and don't want to expose it to all the stuff they put down for ice and snow.
    Ed

  10. #160
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    I understood from Teresa that the tandem seatpost size would stay at 27.2mm. Some sizing tweaks are about the only change for ECDM's, unless I didn't get the whole story...
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  11. #161
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    In my defence Alex, we were picking up our new frame and so I may not have been paying strict attention to the changes in the new frames. I did ask, but then started staring around the Ventana shop during her reply.

    First ride occured yesterday and other than some additional weight noticed when lifting the bike in/out of the truck, or lifting the rear to swing it around when not riding, neither I or my stoker noticed any real difference with the bike in motion. That opinion may change as we get more miles on it, but there wasn't obvious flex (ala our Burley road tandem) or weight issues. Still some sloppy conditions in Malibu Creek State Park, but the e-tape on the lower-front coupler was all that was needed. The 2011 RP23 seems to want 10-15psi more than our '06 RP2.

  12. #162
    PMK
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    The obvious thing is none of the changes matter until we really know, but like so many other surprises in life, it's fun to just wonder


    Could not tell from the photos, but does the new frame have a small air sleeve or large?

    You obviously did not mention the pressure increase to the stoker. Just kidding.

    PK

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    Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.

    When asked, stoker mentioned things felt a little softer, but she didn't feel it enough to volunteer that info. If this time is like last time, I'll adjust it until she doesn't have a comment beyond "it works fine."

    I did have a couple loose-ish couplers after the ride. The S&S wrenches say to check the tightness before every ride. I guess they're not kidding. If they continue to loosen I may end up packing a spare wrench, just in case. Blue Loctite is also an option, as a thread-locker. Might also help with dust incursion, but I'd check with S&S to see. Stainless is fine with Loctite, but the couplers aren't exactly something I can replace at a whim.

  14. #164
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.

    When asked, stoker mentioned things felt a little softer, but she didn't feel it enough to volunteer that info. If this time is like last time, I'll adjust it until she doesn't have a comment beyond "it works fine."

    I did have a couple loose-ish couplers after the ride. The S&S wrenches say to check the tightness before every ride. I guess they're not kidding. If they continue to loosen I may end up packing a spare wrench, just in case. Blue Loctite is also an option, as a thread-locker. Might also help with dust incursion, but I'd check with S&S to see. Stainless is fine with Loctite, but the couplers aren't exactly something I can replace at a whim.


    I would be very careful with Loctite on that much surface area of threads and those small wrenching flats. Personally, I would tighten to your preferred amount, then using some red nail polish, paint a couple of witness marks across the couplers. This will allow you to "see" if the coupler unwound or is just seating further.

    On a side note. Had it been the size large, or for that matter if it had fit us, we would have bought my friends 2010 Co-Motion Periscope 26" wheel Co-Pilot (coupled) travel tandem. I had the bike at home for a few days to let us test it and while I did not tear it down, I noticed those hook spanner notches are not very deep.

    FWIW, stainless is also one of the materials that likes to seize or cold weld itself, especially to other materials. Your being meticulous about keeping the joints clean is good and based on you keeping this thing 20 years I would not be stingy with coupler lube.

    FWIW, we have not owned a coupled bike. All my experience has been on the Co-Mo, and few that were in my friends shop. The ones in the shop were customer bikes that had gotten tough to get apart.


    Now, about that air sleeve. I had heard, but have not seen, that Fox went to a larger volume air sleeve on the RP's. A photo would be nice and make things simple. The DHX style air sleeve will interchange with our RP and the RP's will fit a DHX.

    You have the correct attitude about the pressure, find what works to establish good sag or preload (base pressure), the amount of air volume has a lot to do with how the bike feels when ridden. The air volume must also work in harmony with the chassis's linkage. While not always an easy change, the air volume is another possible tuning tool. Light teams and especially lighter stokers will most often prefer a greater air volume allowing full use of the suspensions travel but also providing a more firm initial air spring rate. The same team on a small air volume would run less initial pressure, giving a more compliant ride while still using all available travel.

    FWIW, 99.9% of the folks riding airshox just pump it to some book pressure or a sag that feels good and let it rip. For us, when the tandem wallows around, it takes a lot of effort to ride it and riding fast is less possible.

    Often, the larger air sleeves they will not be tapered to a smaller diameter near the PP lever end of the shock assembly. Small air sleeves will taper down.

    PK

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.

    .
    That is the new stock "small" air can. Or as Fox calls it, Regular Air Can. Same size as on my ECDM. The new RP23 run larger cans across the board and do require slighly higher PSI, found that to be true on my single bikes as well.

    Okay, are you in the Bay Area?
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  16. #166
    PMK
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    Ciclistagonzo

    Any chance you could post your tandem ride photos from the Ventana section. Pretty cool.

    PK

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    We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.

    Paul, I've attached a picture of our RP23. In looking at pictures, the air sleeve is a larger volume than our ~'06 RP2, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

    We are a ~350lb team plus gear and bike. I had kept ~170psi in the RP2 with PP on and 5 clicks of clockwise rebound from full CCW. Will be attempting 10psi increases in air pressure until stoker agrees it is better.

    Unfortunately for us I just confirmed with my stoker that the AORTA dates won't play nice with her job as a school teacher (and the time it'd take to fly from CA in order to ride all three days). So we'll miss your suspension class. And the other 29 teams.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-img_3018.jpg  


  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Ciclistagonzo

    Any chance you could post your tandem ride photos from the Ventana section. Pretty cool.

    PK
    Ah you're making me blush! And here they are:

    My 8 yr old Son and I approaching the biggest Obstacle of the day,
    IMG_1279

    1/2 way thru it, I love the look on my son's Face.

    IMG_1281


    But we were tame compared to what Sherwood does with his youngest:

    IMG_1294
    IMG_1296

    And then they did even steeper...

    IMG_1310
    IMG_1316

    Now that temps are getting a wee bit warmer, hoping to get the kiddos out more to ride.
    Last edited by Ciclistagonzo; 02-10-2011 at 12:36 AM.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.
    Gotcha, I thought you might be closer since I noticed you mentioned picking up the frame directly from V and getting the tour.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  20. #170
    PMK
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    Great photos. When you look closer, the stokers add so much. Your son in photo 2 has the wow face happening.

    Sherwoods son is obviously hamming it up in one photo, but is curious and looking around dad before the drop in.

    Great photos but more important, you two had the experience of a hopefully a great time. Possibly one of the main reason to ride a tandem.

    PK

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.

    Paul, I've attached a picture of our RP23. In looking at pictures, the air sleeve is a larger volume than our ~'06 RP2, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

    We are a ~350lb team plus gear and bike. I had kept ~170psi in the RP2 with PP on and 5 clicks of clockwise rebound from full CCW. Will be attempting 10psi increases in air pressure until stoker agrees it is better.

    Unfortunately for us I just confirmed with my stoker that the AORTA dates won't play nice with her job as a school teacher (and the time it'd take to fly from CA in order to ride all three days). So we'll miss your suspension class. And the other 29 teams.
    One of these newer RP23 higher volume rear dampers was dropped off for a rebuild last night. It is slightly shorter than the tandems, but I give it a close look and see if I can find where the volume was added and if it could easily have the volume altered as a tuning aid.

    Don't get worked up over missing the little suspension dealio, I am more bummed you won't be there riding.

    Any chance of you shipping the bike ahead, then take one day off (Friday so you two could catch a late Thursday flight, then head out for an afternoon flight Sunday). Makes it a bit tight and hectic, but from my personal experience last year, getting there was beyond a challenge, but we had a great time all said and done.

    Our way cool granddaughter decided to arrive early and totally altered our travel arrangements. That was one trip I pushed until I had no more and the body said you will sleep NOW.

    PK

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Great photos. When you look closer, the stokers add so much. Your son in photo 2 has the wow face happening.

    Sherwoods son is obviously hamming it up in one photo, but is curious and looking around dad before the drop in.

    Great photos but more important, you two had the experience of a hopefully a great time. Possibly one of the main reason to ride a tandem.

    PK
    Great time was had for sure. My son's Wow face made my day, He says after, "You can ride down big rocks?" my reply, yup and bigger, and the tandem can get down bigger and steeper stuff than a single bike. My son "Cool",

    Sherwood's son is a littler ripper already, following Dad will only make him faster. I like going out with them, since my kids pick up tips by watching Alex (Sherwood's son).
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  23. #173
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    Just built...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-blue-sands-29er-tandem006.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-blue-sands-29er-tandem004.jpg  

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  24. #174
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    fork?

    Is that the White Loop? I didn't know that they were going to "tandem" that one. They keep trying to talk me into a modified DH fork.

  25. #175
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    Is that headed to New York by chance?????????????????????????
    Ed and Pat Gifford

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