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Thread: The ECDM thread

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199 View Post
    Thanks!!! As you can gather, we like it!

    The stoker stem is actually a trials stem (fixed length) I think it is 175mm.

    Potence Echo SL 20" CNC 175mm x 30 degrés - TRIALPROD

    I did not buy it from there - but I think that's the one!
    Thanks Dan!

  2. #252
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    Finally found this video taken during New Years.

    It is us, two crazed grandparents.

    Not sure we would have tried this on a hardtail tandem.

    FWIW, the fall to the inside of the turn is like 5 or 6 feet straight down, the entry is very rooted, and the final drop in is scalloped pretty nasty, with a huge floating root.

    Being honest, I walked it a couple times before riding it.

    Narration is from Chris J, another tandem team captain

    PK

    <object><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true"></param><param name="movie" value="http://www.facebook.com/v/10150531971458748"></param><embed src="http://www.facebook.com/v/10150531971458748" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="1"></embed></object>
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Finally found this video taken during New Years.

    It is us, two crazed grandparents.

    Not sure we would have tried this on a hardtail tandem.

    FWIW, the fall to the inside of the turn is like 5 or 6 feet straight down, the entry is very rooted, and the final drop in is scalloped pretty nasty, with a huge floating root.

    Being honest, I walked it a couple times before riding it.

    Narration is from Chris J, another tandem team captain

    PK

    <object><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true"></param><param name="movie" value="http://www.facebook.com/v/10150531971458748"></param><embed src="http://www.facebook.com/v/10150531971458748" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="1"></embed></object>
    Not Bad for some Old Timers

  4. #254
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    Bottom Bracket height on the 29er

    Hello happy tandem riders,

    A little intro: we are from France, riding a 20th century Univega Full suspension tandem:
    The ECDM thread-grand-2.jpg

    We are so interested by the 29 ECDM. But as we checked the geometry I'm really scared by the tall bottom bracket height: 15,57 inches for the captain !!!
    As I checked on solo MTB, the 29 version of 26 bike usually had even a lower bottom bracket !!! see stumpjumper 29 and 26, Santa Cruz Blur Lt, Intense Tracer 2

    So what do you think and for those happy 29 owners, what's your riding report ?

    Have a good ride !
    Amélie and Laurent

  5. #255
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    Welcome! I would say that optimal BB height depends somewhat on your terrain. We live and ride where there are many rocks and obstacles, so for us a higher BB equals more clearance and fewer pedal strikes. Our 26" Ventana is over 16" BB height. It is tall, but once riding it, I don't notice.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by leszazas View Post
    Hello happy tandem riders,

    A little intro: we are from France, riding a 20th century Univega Full suspension tandem:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	grand-2.jpg 
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    We are so interested by the 29 ECDM. But as we checked the geometry I'm really scared by the tall bottom bracket height: 15,57 inches for the captain !!!
    As I checked on solo MTB, the 29 version of 26 bike usually had even a lower bottom bracket !!! see stumpjumper 29 and 26, Santa Cruz Blur Lt, Intense Tracer 2

    So what do you think and for those happy 29 owners, what's your riding report ?

    Have a good ride !
    Amélie and Laurent
    Welcome to MTBR Amélie and Laurent
    How about a new thread showing more pictures of your tandem....
    also how is that Lefty working out never thought it would work on a tandem

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by leszazas View Post
    We are so interested by the 29 ECDM. But as we checked the geometry I'm really scared by the tall bottom bracket height: 15,57 inches for the captain !!!
    The Ventana website shows the fork length as 518mm, so that would be a 120mm travel 29er fork... so the Ventana geometry numbers are of the bike unsagged (which I personally think is a bit useless, solo or tandems).

    With 5in travel upfront and 4in out back and sagged 30%, sagged captain BB height would be ~14.0in and stoker BB height would be ~13.8. That's not so bad considering you do need the BB's a bit higher on a tandem compared to a solo bike to not get constant pedal strikes...

  8. #258
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    Oh yes we should present ourselves, I will as soon as... I have time home !!!

    For the Lefty it's really a good fork for us, it's the spring version on the picture with the stronger steel spring (perfect) and we soon will have the air one. It's so rigid. In the meantime we have a FOX 36 Float reduced to 140mm travel and I have strange feeling on diagonal roots and ridges, not on braking as I would have think. Like if the fork was flexing lateraly if my english is not to bad !!! I almost crash the other day with this lateral flex on a leaning mini-jump reception. I had a 36 on my solo and it was not flexy at all !!!

    Have a good ride !
    Laurent

  9. #259
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    I couldn't make a new thread for tire speculation, so I start it here (I have only 3 posts...).

    Today riding from work we got 9 (n-i-n-e) cuts in rear tire sidewalls. Three cuts on driveside and six on non-driveside. We were exploring "new" trails and backend whipped from side to side during rocky sections. Stoker was singing her happy song, but we managed to get through without incidents. 'while riding to next trail section, we noticed considerable wobble on rear tire and found those nasty cuts.

    Tires were intact after saturdays ride, so todays ride was very tough for tires. We have been running Nobby Nics 2.25" front and rear.

    We have had the wettest summer in 150 years, but Nobby Nics have been very reliable on slimy roots and wet rock. NN are little bit slow for out taste, so we are looking alternatives with similar grip but little less rolling resistance. Suggestions?

    Local shop carries Continental Mountain King II Protection 2.2 (I think it is too thin for my liking) and Rubber Queen 2.2 (much wider than Mountain king, but is slower)... Anyone using Mountain King 2.2 or Rubber Queen 2.2 (Trail king in North America) in ECDM?

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaitettaVille View Post
    I couldn't make a new thread for tire speculation, so I start it here (I have only 3 posts...).

    Today riding from work we got 9 (n-i-n-e) cuts in rear tire sidewalls. Three cuts on driveside and six on non-driveside. We were exploring "new" trails and backend whipped from side to side during rocky sections. Stoker was singing her happy song, but we managed to get through without incidents. 'while riding to next trail section, we noticed considerable wobble on rear tire and found those nasty cuts.
    ...
    Ugh! Nine cuts?!

    I recently put a nevgal tubeless 2.35 on the back of the 26er ECDM. So far so good....
    Have been having tire durability issues on my 1-seat bike too....
    --Reamer

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by reamer41 View Post
    Ugh! Nine cuts?!

    I recently put a nevgal tubeless 2.35 on the back of the 26er ECDM. So far so good....
    Have been having tire durability issues on my 1-seat bike too....
    Today I changed tires and took a closer look. There was abrasion on both sides of sidewalls. We are using mavic dh-rims, so 2,25" Nobby nics are very full and side walls come out wider than side knobs. I think our trails and riding style is just very tough for sidewalls if side knobs aren't wide enough.

    I went to local shop and they had Rubber Queen 2,4" (Black Chilli compound). I wasn't sure if it would fit to ECDM rear fork. Fortunately it fits, but there is just 5 mm room over the tire. Rubber queen feels more rugged than Nobby Nics, but time will tell. Side knobs are little wider, but I think sidewalls are still in danger.

  12. #262
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    Our ECDM is apart for some maintenance. I had shared my concern about the upper shock bolt for those running a 6mm diameter bolt.

    If you own an ECDM and ride hard...

    Today I was able to disassemble the rear end. For those that have never had the rear suspension apart, it's pretty easy.

    I have the Ventana bearing removal and install tool and must say it is money well spent. With the swingarm, seatstay and rocker removed, the Ventana tool easily pressed out all the bearings in a leisurely 15 minutes. All the bearings had the seal removed, were solvent washed, greased with Bel-Ray waterproof grease. I greased the bearings 100% full prior to installing the seals.

    After cleaning the suspension components, all the bearings were again easily installed.

    We ride pretty much all year round. For those that do winter maintenance, this would be a worthy task. Tomorrow I plan to reassemble the rear suspension. The one real caution will be to ensure the pivot threads are clean and free of grease so the Loctite will bond.

    The one problem that did occur was during disassembly. The left side seatstay / rocker pivot had the stainless post unscrew from the seatstay bridge. No damage, just cleaned it with Brakleen, applied Loctite Red 271 and reinstalled.

    PK
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  13. #263
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    While we haven't put a ton of miles on our ECdM in the last few months, it hasn't needed anything and continues to be ready to rock. We haven't even broken anything since the SRAM chain (which must have been a bad batch of chains as we're still running them) incident, and after switching out from the WI rear hub. Maintenance here and there, and lots of cleaning, but that's about it. A lot fewer air pressure adjustments in the fork after switching to a coil-sprung 66EVO.

    WTB Prowler 2.4s on the street howl like a Jeep with monster mudders, but even that works to our advantage on the street and hardpack sections since people can hear us comin'. And despite riding our local trails for over five years, we still get people with comments like "...they're not going to go through the creek bed on that thing, are they...?"

    It would be nice to pull 7-8 pounds out of the bike, but we don't have that kind of money. Even if we did, I'd imagine it would result in some increase in trailside repairs and long walks out. In the face of the cost alone, I'm happier with the slightly more blunt and burly instrument.

  14. #264
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    I'll agree, so far our ECDM has held up very well to the abuse. I guess to the point of planning to do things like these pivots but it just keeps going, so they never got done.

    PK
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  15. #265
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    Did you find any notches in the bearings when you pulled them? Our aluminum ECdM had them after about 3.5 years of riding without any sort of service or rotation. I wonder what the cost of the bearing tool is versus new bearings. ...But, then I'll need the bearing tool to R&R the new bearings anyway. Drat.

  16. #266
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    A couple were gritty but are fine. I believe the bearing kit is fairly expensive since it includes new bolts and such.

    PK
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  17. #267
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    During the rear end rebuild, I found our upper shock bolt bent. After a short discussion with Sherwood at Ventana, I also learned, that for our ECDM, we could gain additional rear end stiffness by replacing not only the upper shock bolt but also all the suspension pivot bolts.

    These bolts high end metric fasteners are not available from Ventana. So, I had to order by the box from the fastener manufacturer.

    If anyone has an interest in upgrading there ECDM, shoot me a PM and I can send the fasteners for what they cost me plus some USPS shipping.

    PK
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  18. #268
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    96 ecdm

    Well Rene and Kristi from City of Angels. Built this up in 96 and it has seen many transformations since... The Bike has been awesome and has towed a burley trailer with 2 kids in it all around the western states... The Wife and I are going to be doin alot more rides and hopefully we'll see you out there. As far as the the Electric Green Monster... I would love to go 29er 2x10 etc but it just works soooo well??? I upgraded the rear to 5" and I have a 6" in front.

    Some upgrades I will be doing:

    Lockout suspension front and rear
    Possibly a 27.5 front wheel ???
    Formula the one brakes

  19. #269
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    forgot the pics
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-img_0012.jpg  


  20. #270
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    Nice! Love the color!
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem

  21. #271
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    Rene & Kristi, Nice bike, we ride a similar bike just 5 years newer. Our son is 6 and we went through the Burley and now we tow him on a trail-a-bike. I'm interested in the upgrade to 5" in the rear. Our ECDM has a 6" Marzocchi 66 in the front and only the standard 4" rear. The ride is fine and we really don't seem to use up all the rear travel, but maybe the extra inch in the rear might speed up the steering.

    Thanks
    Patrick & Maria
    Fullerton, CA

  22. #272
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    youtu.be/mxX6_RwGSUo

    Our new conquest in Hyvinkää, Finland. This trail is used for MtbEnduro competitions. We weren't as smooth as we would liked to be, but we had lots of fun filming.

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaitettaVille View Post
    youtu.be/mxX6_RwGSUo

    Our new conquest in Hyvinkää, Finland. This trail is used for MtbEnduro competitions. We weren't as smooth as we would liked to be, but we had lots of fun filming.
    I like it!! The trail looks fun and challenging.

    As for not riding the entire trail clean, it happens.

    The riding looks some similar to the trails in New England here in the US. Rocky, Hardpack and often wet in places. Trees appear similar too.

    Thanks for sharing that.

    PK
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  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaitettaVille View Post
    youtu.be/mxX6_RwGSUo

    Our new conquest in Hyvinkää, Finland. This trail is used for MtbEnduro competitions. We weren't as smooth as we would liked to be, but we had lots of fun filming.
    Nice job with the movie.Looks like it was fun.As far as smoothness goes I think some movies you see the mistakes or bobbles are left on the editing room floor. Leaving a few in takes a lot more courage. Beautiful area that you have to ride in.
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem

  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by giff07 View Post
    Nice job with the movie.Looks like it was fun.As far as smoothness goes I think some movies you see the mistakes or bobbles are left on the editing room floor. Leaving a few in takes a lot more courage. Beautiful area that you have to ride in.
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem
    The latest video I am working on editing is planned, not from your post, but I decided I wanted to show our first attempt that had us fail a climb, followed by more bobbles before we got going again. Then the second attempt which we were able to make the climb clean.

    FWIW, seems the places we tend to video, a crash could be not in our best interest. The cool funny crashes or hangup never seem to be on video.

    PK
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  26. #276
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    Don't be offended Paul. There was not any finger pointing intended by my comment. It was simply stating that it was easy to make a video without any mistakes in riding technique through creative editing and it took more courage to leave a few mistakes in. If we rode perfectly all the time without any crashes or bobbles riding the tandem wouldn't be near as much fun or the trails would be so boring we might as well road ride.
    Ed and Pat
    tSRt

  27. #277
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    Ed, no offense taken in any way. I agree, so often some cool stuff is left out with near misses and crashes.

    As I mentioned, I have another video from the same event, we were on a trail section and did not make a climb. The hurried haste to get going again and out of the way for other coming riders, is a disaster that draws blood. PO'd, as Captain of the ship I set out for a clean run, which we get in the second try.

    I have another video from the same weekend. On a climb, a rider in front of us gets off his bike to push up the hill. I am telling him to get out of the way. Suffice to say the collision is impressive on video. The other guy has a rear der squashed into his spokes from the down stroke of my left pedal. I will need to do an audio edit also...there were some bad words from mouth after we got rolling again.

    PK
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  28. #278
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    ECDM 29er Rocks!

    Very good bike capable of most trails a single bike can ride. We have been in Arizona for the past week and ridden: Sedona, Prescott, and Scottsdale. Sedona was a real eye opener for what the bike can get through, up, and over, cleanly. Pretty amazing really. I guess I need to get a GoPro.

    The high bottom bracket makes it possible to get through the rocks. High speed steering stability suffers a bit but it corners good enough. Anyone try a Hopey steering damper?
    2 wheels == True

  29. #279
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    I don't know of anyone here that runs a Hopey. There was a good discussion of it on Double Forte a few years ago. Should be able to find it with a search there.

  30. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebnelson View Post
    Very good bike capable of most trails a single bike can ride. We have been in Arizona for the past week and ridden: Sedona, Prescott, and Scottsdale. Sedona was a real eye opener for what the bike can get through, up, and over, cleanly. Pretty amazing really. I guess I need to get a GoPro.

    The high bottom bracket makes it possible to get through the rocks. High speed steering stability suffers a bit but it corners good enough. Anyone try a Hopey steering damper?
    What would you deem as high speed steering stability in regards to actual speed and terrain type?

    A lot of how the bike feels and reacts is based not only on headtube angle but fork offset dimension which relates directly to the dimension for trail.

    The window off stabilty vs speed related to trail dimension is a very small change.

    PK
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  31. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    What would you deem as high speed steering stability in regards to actual speed and terrain type?

    A lot of how the bike feels and reacts is based not only on headtube angle but fork offset dimension which relates directly to the dimension for trail.

    The window off stabilty vs speed related to trail dimension is a very small change.

    PK
    Stability is probably a misleading word to use. The steering is stable, but clipping rocks with the front tire, unexpectedly, is more likely on the tandem then single while descending. The same is true climbing where the intended line may deviate a bit, especially in the little ring. The idea being that it might make the bike track a bit more nicely to slow down the steering. We've been riding in a lot of "baby head" sized rocks lately. On my enduro moto the steering damper helps from getting the bars yanked. I can definitely live without one but would be interested to see if any tandem teams have tried one.
    2 wheels == True

  32. #282
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    I run a Scotts / Ohlins steering damper on my KTM, so I understand where you are coming from. However, as a suspension tuner, my thoughts are the suspension is not dialed in and deflecting.

    Dampers are neat devices, and can make good suspension better. A damper on poor suspension acts as a band aid and helps hide or cover up poor setups. Not saying you have a poor setup, just something to maybe look closely at.

    Also, I don't know what fork you run, but as I have taught others, it does make a difference to properly align the fork tubes before tightening the axle pinch bolts. Moto guys should know this but often overlook it on their MTB.

    Tandem wise, when we ride local trails / terrain the low speed compression, high speed compression and rebound seldom get changed. On road trips, typically the stoker will make changes to the compression adjuster while rolling and I will make changes to the HSC and LSC as needed. Sounds complicated but really just a few clicks to take the edge off hack type square edges, limit rear squat, or help the bike turn better.

    We do not run a steering damper on the tandem, if we did, I doubt I would use a Hopey. I would likely adapt a CRF damper to the frame and lower triple clamp.

    Best of luck with it.

    PK

    Want to add, being a 29r, you might just have a ton of wheel flex that noting less than different wheels will overcome. Our bike is a 26 so wheel flex is not a real issue.
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  33. #283
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    We got our first decent helmet cam, so we had to make a test video.


    Snowride - MTBTandem movie
    youtu.be/oPv5hFA7pF8

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    Loved the video. My stoker was just watching over my shoulder too! Tandem watching a tandem on the computer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine View Post
    Loved the video. My stoker was just watching over my shoulder too! Tandem watching a tandem on the computer!
    We love watching other teams riding different sections. We don't know any teams in Finland, so videos are only "peer group" and way to learn from others. It would be nice to have more tandem videos showing capabilities of the bike on this forum.

  36. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaitettaVille View Post
    We love watching other teams riding different sections. We don't know any teams in Finland, so videos are only "peer group" and way to learn from others. It would be nice to have more tandem videos showing capabilities of the bike on this forum.
    My stoker and I have been discussing getting some non bike mounted video. We have some ideas and will try and make it show bikes ability and my stupidity to ride crazy things.

    PK
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  37. #287
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    New tandem team

    Been lurking here for a while and thinking of getting a MTB tandem. We've been mountain biking since the mid 80's and riding a road tandem for 3yrs, so we thought we would like to give it a try off road.
    This thread has been a big help. Soooo,

    Okay the deal is done, closed on a 2010 Ventana ECDM!!! Some highlights are; Sram XO code hyd discs front and rear, Fox Talas RC 36 150 mm fork, Sram X9 3x9 speed drive train. Should be delivered by Monday!

    Thanks for all the good info and motovation to see this thru.

    Oops, maybe should have posted in SoCal thread...
    Last edited by DonP.; 12-11-2012 at 06:02 AM. Reason: Should have posted in SoCal

  38. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonP. View Post

    ...Oops, maybe should have posted in SoCal thread...
    Nah, fits the ECDM thread too. You can post in both

    Welcome to the forum!!

  39. #289
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    @DonP sounds nice and hope to see a few photos. Sounds like a great bike with many miles of enjoyment to be had.

    PK
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  40. #290
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    We the people ... The Ventana arrived yesterday!

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    @DonP sounds nice and hope to see a few photos. Sounds like a great bike with many miles of enjoyment to be had.

    PK
    Got a few pics of the unpacking process, if I can post them....sorry the pics are a little big.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-20121217_170536.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-20121217_170553.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-20121217_171028.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-20121217_181514.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-20121217_181707.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-20121217_181645.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-20121217_181634.jpg  


  41. #291
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    Nice looking ride! Friends of ours have an ECDM in the same color they have dubbed it Screamcycle Orange. Have fun with it!
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem

  42. #292
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    Very nice

    PK
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  43. #293
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    Quickly opened presents on Christmas morning, then dashed out for a late-morning ride to the beach and back before family arrived. A bit goopy in spots due to the rain, but overall a wonderful ride with great winter weather (uh, for SoCal) and very few people out on the trails. We counted 5 cyclists, though over 50 hikers (many in one big group out).

    Had recently changed the SRAM 990 cassette for another XT. I could never trim the rear D to be happy with the 11T cog on the 990. This isn't just a 990 issue for me, since I've had the same problems with a 930 cassette on a completely different ECdM. The chain would want to climb the 12T cog, and it wasn't a limit-screw issue, it was a tension issue. If I adjusted the tension for the 11T cog to be happy, it would take two clicks to get out of it, and then the rest of the shifting was rubbish.

    Back to XT, retrimmed the shifter, and I've got all gears and good shifting (X9 shifter and RD).

    No other major changes to the bike. Another set of brake pads up front and a bleed (so easy with the Hopes). Going to need new rotors sooner or later, and I will need to do my winter maintenance (new chains, seal kit for the shock, wonder/worry about ordering new Middleburn sync rings or go (hope) with Homebrew for half the cost. I've always switched the sync rings front-to-back, so I've got a year.

  44. #294
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    Our goal was to make a extensive video, but weather was too beautiful for filming. After couple of takes, we put cameras into bags and we rode without interruptions.

  45. #295
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    Wonderful Job you guys! I am happy for you that it was a beautiful day But sorry you decided to stop filming. Nicely done.
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem

  46. #296
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    That looks like a really nice trail system, in the snow! What sort of tires do you use? And have you had any difficulties on snow with the higher center of gravity of a tandem?

    Seriously muddy sections of trail give me troubles since the front tire wants to slide out sideways if I hit a rock, or get off balance.

  47. #297
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    Thank you giff07!

    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine View Post
    That looks like a really nice trail system, in the snow! What sort of tires do you use? And have you had any difficulties on snow with the higher center of gravity of a tandem?

    Seriously muddy sections of trail give me troubles since the front tire wants to slide out sideways if I hit a rock, or get off balance.
    We have tens of kilometers of singletrail in snow. People walking with dogs keep the trails open. Now trails are hardpacked and very fast.

    We use Schwalbe Ice Spiker pro tires. Those are just superb winter tires.

    We havent't experienced any difficulties relating higher center of gravity. Only difference/difficulty comparing summer trails is narrower path and tighter corners.

  48. #298
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    Spring Maintenance

    Did the spring maintenance schedule today:

    New drive chain
    Shock seal kit/rebuild
    Complete service of CK hub
    New rear shifter cable/housing
    Clean/lube pedals
    Wash

    Doesn't seem like much, but took half the day. The CK service took half of that, but it's almost a joy to do with the special tools, since it all just works.

    Out on the bike twice this past work week, which was nice. Viva la DST!

  49. #299
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    getting the disc adapter off the rear Chris King hub is being a ***** for me. I need to access the preload adjustment ring. I'm going to cut down a 2mm wrench to fit without getting the adapter off as a plan B.
    2 wheels == True

  50. #300
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    mtbr bleeped B I T C H. Really?
    2 wheels == True

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