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Thread: The ECDM thread

  1. #101
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    I'd hazard a guess they'll just be listing the 29er version officially?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyJ
    I'd hazard a guess they'll just be listing the 29er version officially?

    If you mean they will no longer offer the 26" wheeled bike that would be bad for our team.

    We have a 29r hardtail and a 26 FS, some of the stuff we ride, we want the smaller wheels. Plus it is so easy to toss and throw the small wheel bike in technical terrain. Many of the places we ride are not big flowing ribbons of singletrack. Some require you to back the bike in, or sometimes have the stoker quickly dismount, and with the captain holding the rear brake, the stoker will pickup/slide the rear tire around, then remount.

    As good as a 29 is, the 26 still has it's place.

    PK
    Last edited by PMK; 12-25-2010 at 07:52 AM.

  3. #103
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    I'm thinking of converting my El Testigo to 650b wheels. I have tried them and really like them a lot. I used 26" for years, used 29" for a while and the 650b feels like the perfect balance between the two. I"ll have to contact Sherwood to see if the El Bastardo chainstays would work on my bike, since the current stays would not work.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    If you mean they will no longer offer the 26" wheeled bike that would be bad for our team.

    We have a 29r hardtail and a 26 FS, some of the stuff we ride, we want the smaller wheels. Plus it is so easy to toss and throw the small wheel bike in technical terrain. Many of the places we ride are not big flowing ribbons of singletrack. Some require you to back the bike in, or sometimes have the stoker quickly dismount, and with the captain holding the rear brake, the stoker will pickup/slide the rear tire around, then remount.

    As good as a 29 is, the 26 still has it's place.

    PK
    No, the 26" line will still be in procuction with the addition of the 29" in FS and Hardtail is my understanding.

    Along with a host of other refinements in the line.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    If you mean they will no longer offer the 26" wheeled bike that would be bad for our team.
    I only guessed that they'll list the 29er (in addition) to their 26er tandem... if I think they were to replace it, I would have said replace. In any case, I wasn't even aware Ventana did their FS MTB tandem in a 29er version until I started reading this forum. What I'd really like is for their S&S version to be available in aluminium rather than steel, though that's more an issue with S&S allowing Santana sole availability on the alu coupling... *sigh*

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyJ
    What I'd really like is for their S&S version to be available in aluminium rather than steel, though that's more an issue with S&S allowing Santana sole availability on the alu coupling... *sigh*
    Not true... regarding the aluminum couplers. Santana's original exclusivity only meant that any builder who wanted to use the couplers designed per Santana's specs would need to procure them through Santana... noting Santana will also sell their various brands and blends of tandem tubing to other builders. However, the "exclusive" was a 2-year arrangement, after which anyone could buy the aluminum-frame compatible couplers from S&S.

    In talking with other builders, most never saw enough consumer interest and/or just didn't see aluminum's minor weight savings as being a good enough trade-off on the inherent durability and repairability of steel for the rigors of travel tandems.

    Of course, the other challenge with using the couplers designed for Santana on a Ventana would be the smaller diameter of the couplers and the challenge of integrating a coupler into Ventana's unbutted tubesets. Frankly, Sherwood made the best call by offering the steel S&S Ventana ECdM and I suspect the steel model handles just as well as the aluminum models where any weight difference is mostly coming from the 3lbs of couplers, not just the frame material... remembering the rear triangle is still aluminum and the fork is whatever anyone might spec for their tandem. Mind you, this is just my armchair analysis based on owning steel and carbon tandems with couplers and some brief discussions long-ago with our friend Jim from the Seattle area who persuaded Sherwood to build the first S&S Ventana.... which grew into the first Ventana ECdM that could be configured as a tandem, triplet, quad or quint. More photos here.



    I would note, S&S now has some larger diameter aluminum couplers that were developed as a less-costly alternative to the titanium couplers that were previously the recommended spec. for Calfee's composite frames. But, similar to the Santana coupler issues, anyone wanting to use the aluminum couplers designed for Calfee would have to have similar tubing wall thicknesses, which pretty much rules out aluminum tubesets.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    No, the 26" line will still be in procuction with the addition of the 29" in FS and Hardtail is my understanding.
    Pretty sure the 29er hardtail's fabricated by Ventana will be limited to Alex Nutt's Fandango brand and design spec. for the foreseeable future.

    The F/S 26 and 29 models are standard fare and, yes... we too hear that there will continue to refinements in the ECdM, just as there have been since the prototype was unveiled back t Interbike in the mid-90's.

  8. #108
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    I'm accomplishing some routine maintenance on out ECDM.

    Curious if any of you have ever disassembled the suspension pivots, then removed the bearings, cleaned and re-greased them.

    I'm not too concerned about it. Any tips or pointers beyond using Loctite on clean threads when reassembling? How easy are the bearings removed from the bores?

    Also, our linkage rocker is a funky brownish stained color. I spoke to Theresa at Ventana about this a while back and it seems some of the linkage took on this look, while most did not. So I ask, has anyone ever done or seen the two linkage realys polished or anodized another color than black.

    If I can find some play money I was toying with having our red Race Face cranks, the linkage, pivot caps and maybe seat collars, anodized in the color of Fox compression adjuster blue.

    Any thoughts? Constructive, not the "you're crazy", that's a given.

    PK

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    I'm accomplishing some routine maintenance on out ECDM.

    Curious if any of you have ever disassembled the suspension pivots, then removed the bearings, cleaned and re-greased them.

    I'm not too concerned about it. Any tips or pointers beyond using Loctite on clean threads when reassembling? How easy are the bearings removed from the bores?PK
    I have had the main pivot apart. The whole rear triangle, really. I never did press the bearings from the bores. When my frame was new the main pivot loosened and the bore through the frame got sloppy.. I was horrified! Sherwood made it all right (!!!) and I believe he replaced the bolt in that pivot with non-stainless steel.

    In any case, it comes apart and goes back together quite easily -- but I would be very specific with the loctite and torque specs.

    I also check for play in the rear triangle before & after each ride. Do not let looseness ruin your frame!

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Also, our linkage rocker is a funky brownish stained color. I spoke to Theresa at Ventana about this a while back and it seems some of the linkage took on this look, while most did not. So I ask, has anyone ever done or seen the two linkage realys polished or anodized another color than black.

    If I can find some play money I was toying with having our red Race Face cranks, the linkage, pivot caps and maybe seat collars, anodized in the color of Fox compression adjuster blue.

    Any thoughts? Constructive, not the "you're crazy", that's a given.

    PK
    I've seen many anodized items discolor in the sun. My rockers may have weathered a little. As to color cordinating bikes, not really my thing.

    But I like smirking at cool pictures of other folks color-coordinated bikes....

  10. #110
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    Here's our 2006 21/16 ECDM.

    Marz Jr. T 170mm fork reduced to 130mm
    RP23 shock & 5" rockers
    SRAM x-9 shifters, x-7 rear der, xt front der.
    Middleburn cranks (isis)
    Chris King hubs -- 20mm front, "Fun Bolts" rear, SS freehub body
    Mavic 521 rims w/Maxxis tubeless rim strips
    Hope Mono M4 brakes
    Thompson posts and stem

    Wheels and front brake are transplants from our old KHS Tandamania. Front brake squeals a bit. I need to try a new rotor. Most of the rest came from MTBTandems.

    Only issues have been a couple derailleur hangers. Now using one from derailleurhangers.com I think it may be stiffer. The first couple from Ventana seemed too soft and the derailleur got bumped into the spokes which made a mess of the derailleur.

    Mentioned elsewhere, the rear pivot got loose and was not detected soon enough and the rear pivot bore was ovalized. Fixed by Ventana.

    Yes, the cranks are slightly out of phase. Joyce felt she couldn't contribute when we were in phase. We tried several different timings before settling on this arrangement.

    I would like try the 29er version.... But not in a hurry to buy another one of these!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-coachwhip-tandem.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-slickrock-tandem-005.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-slickrock-tandem.jpg  


  11. #111
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    Does anyone know if the 29er ECDM swingarm and seatstays will bolt on to a 2006 "26er" ECDM?

    And if so, know of anyone who's tried it?

    I can't afford a new frame and fork...

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by reamer41
    Does anyone know if the 29er ECDM swingarm and seatstays will bolt on to a 2006 "26er" ECDM?

    And if so, know of anyone who's tried it?

    I can't afford a new frame and fork...
    I think I heard somewhere that they are not compatible. I am also interested in the answer. I also wondered if you could bolt on a El Basardo rear triangle to a ECDM. 650b could be a good compromise (in some cases you can use your 26" fork with 650b).

    Please chime in if anyone has knowledge (regarding either 650b or 29" conversion of ECDM).

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Curious if any of you have ever disassembled the suspension pivots, then removed the bearings, cleaned and re-greased them.
    Disassembled, yes. Removed bearings, no. One thing I would suggest if you've gotten that far is to try to rotate the bearings before reassembling the suspension (this only matters if you aren't pulling the bearings). I noticed when rotating the free bearings that there was a notch in them where they normally move through. They don't wear evenly since they don't rotate in full circles.

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Also, our linkage rocker is a funky brownish stained color.
    We also have the brown rockers. Not too obvious, but it is there in the sun if you look.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    I think I heard somewhere that they are not compatible. I am also interested in the answer. I also wondered if you could bolt on a El Basardo rear triangle to a ECDM. 650b could be a good compromise (in some cases you can use your 26" fork with 650b).

    Please chime in if anyone has knowledge (regarding either 650b or 29" conversion of ECDM).

    I believe Sherwood posted about this on DF.

    PK

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    I believe Sherwood posted about this on DF.

    PK
    He did, back in August

    Our 29" rear end will not fit up to our standard 26" Conquistador. The
    29er Conquistador is designed from the ground up around the wheels and
    available forks and is markedly different in tube lengths, bb positions
    (relative to axle centerlines), and in geometry than our 26" version.
    That is precisely why we were slow to add a 29" version to our lineup
    and initially offered it as a custom only. We do offer a 29er
    Conquistador in our lineup as a standard model now, but have yet to get
    it represented with geometry and other details on our website.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    Disassembled, yes. Removed bearings, no. One thing I would suggest if you've gotten that far is to try to rotate the bearings before reassembling the suspension (this only matters if you aren't pulling the bearings). I noticed when rotating the free bearings that there was a notch in them where they normally move through. They don't wear evenly since they don't rotate in full circles.



    We also have the brown rockers. Not too obvious, but it is there in the sun if you look.

    I have not yet pulled the rear suspension apart yet.

    Doing some routine maintenance and trying to make it more bombproof.

    The looks thing is no big deal, just trying to make it ours.

    I dealt with the red cranks by some careful detail work. Being older Race Face stuff with the "I" beam construction, I was able to remove the anodize, expanding from the show worn areas to the pedal mount and almost to the center. Left the rest red.

    I believe this was an old school way to keep this style crank looking decent a while longer.

    As for the discolored linkage, it looks like treated magnesium, so we should just start telling everybody we have the "factory works bike" magnesium links.

    PK

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek
    He did, back in August

    Our 29" rear end will not fit up to our standard 26" Conquistador. The
    29er Conquistador is designed from the ground up around the wheels and
    available forks and is markedly different in tube lengths, bb positions
    (relative to axle centerlines), and in geometry than our 26" version.
    That is precisely why we were slow to add a 29" version to our lineup
    and initially offered it as a custom only. We do offer a 29er
    Conquistador in our lineup as a standard model now, but have yet to get
    it represented with geometry and other details on our website.
    I guess Sherwood knows what kinds of butchers exist out here....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-khs-mod-012.jpg  

    Last edited by reamer41; 12-30-2010 at 12:31 PM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    I have not yet pulled the rear suspension apart yet.

    Doing some routine maintenance and trying to make it more bombproof.

    PK
    When pulling the chainstays off, first disconnect the seatstays, then let the dropouts rotate downward. Once dropped about 45 degrees and the main pivot shaft removed the swingarm will come free.

    I just recalled a little puzzlement the first time I disassembled mine. The dropouts have to drop a bit.

  19. #119
    PMK
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    This was initially posted in the fork topic, but honestly, it is a good idea of how the rear end moves about on a XC trail.



    The trail is Santos Spider Kingdom section, and only a portion of it. Pretty much flat, and any elevation is subtle.

    As already noted, you can see the rear end sliding around a bit, plus the tire tossing up debris. We could always feel the bike set for many corners, but odd to see it actually stepping out a bit.

    PK

  20. #120
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    This is the Santos Vortex Trail. We only captured a portion of it before the small video card ran out of memory.

    This place has some very rocky sections, steep short climbs and bench cuts.

    We rode most of it, but admit there are a few impassable rock sections for us. Either the bike can not be wheelied up onto the rocks, or the rocks will smash chainrings or the frame, some we just can not squeeze through or around. But a good majority can be ridden on a tandem.

    The entire trail is a technical double black diamond with signs that say expert riders only.

    Yes there were a few things we dropped into that had me hang on tight.



    Jeanne rode awesome and deserves a lot of the credit.

    PK

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    Great videos! Watching the suspension and drive train is so nice. Only thing that could make it better is a 2nd cam pointed forward from the same position showing the fork and then splicing the videos together side-by-side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    The trail is Santos Spider Kingdom section, and only a portion of it. Pretty much flat, and any elevation is subtle.
    That's my kind of trail. Not much of that around us, though. Maybe two miles of trail in a network of 70 miles, and even that has much more elevation than Spider Kingdom. Would also have to fly by the trail sign so my stoker wouldn't see the name

  23. #123
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    A couple of great videos Paul and Jeannie! I think that camera angle gives a much better feel for the trail conditions than higher up and out the front. Santos looks really awesome! We have to get there. It seems similar to our "go to" place to ride up here, Allaire State Park( without the palmettos, of course) Thanks for the videos as we look out the window at 8" of snow still on the ground and haven"t ridden outside for a week.
    And of course its nice to see the suspension working in the different situations.
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem
    Toms River, NJ

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    Cracking videos, it seems easier to appreciate the steepness of sections when you have the static frame tubes to compare to.

    Paul, has being able to see the shock work helped you with set-up at all?
    I know it's all about feel really, but I get no technical feedback from my wife except 'that hurt!'

    We still haven't ridden ours anywhere taxing yet. Everywhere feels really good to me, but I can't believe it will be set up perfect out of the box.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107
    Great videos! Watching the suspension and drive train is so nice. Only thing that could make it better is a 2nd cam pointed forward from the same position showing the fork and then splicing the videos together side-by-side.
    Honestly I don't want to get to wrapped up in video editing since it takes a bunch of time. I will say though that I have been asking around about some different software to show multile views simultaneously.

    FWIW, each of these videos have corresponding helmet views also.

    PK

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by giff07
    A couple of great videos Paul and Jeannie! I think that camera angle gives a much better feel for the trail conditions than higher up and out the front. Santos looks really awesome! We have to get there. It seems similar to our "go to" place to ride up here, Allaire State Park( without the palmettos, of course) Thanks for the videos as we look out the window at 8" of snow still on the ground and haven"t ridden outside for a week.
    And of course its nice to see the suspension working in the different situations.
    Ed and Pat Gifford
    the Snot Rocket tandem
    Toms River, NJ

    Glad you liked it, sorry to here about the snow minimizing your ride time.

    PK

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by phill77
    Cracking videos, it seems easier to appreciate the steepness of sections when you have the static frame tubes to compare to.

    Paul, has being able to see the shock work helped you with set-up at all?
    I know it's all about feel really, but I get no technical feedback from my wife except 'that hurt!'

    We still haven't ridden ours anywhere taxing yet. Everywhere feels really good to me, but I can't believe it will be set up perfect out of the box.

    Yes it is nice to see different views, and how they can emphasize or make subtle the terrain or speed.

    Technical feedback, well this was the first weekend of video out the back, so I have not really used it to tune the rear damper further.

    Saying that though, I know our bike is very well planted. Watching the rear in action gives me a good visual of why the ATC fork could not match the back.

    So far, the greatest benefit to watching these videos is seeing how well our ProPedal settings match our bike, terrain and ability.

    I have some portions of the video I did not post, that show some steep drops littered with roots, those have me toying with decreasing the high speed damping a little when I pull it apart. Then again, it is working pretty good back there. Time will tell.

    You'll get out soon enough and get dialed in. Just expect to make minor changes as the suspension breaks in.

    PK

  28. #128
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    A New 29er

    After a long wait, we just received a new 29er on Thursday, and had excellent weather this weekend for a couple of rides. Our first tandem, a Trek T900, got us started, but this is so much better. We went out to Alex’s in September and test rode the 29” Fandango, 29” ECDM and 26” ECDM. My first impression of the 29ers was that the out and back trail felt downhill both ways. They rolled so smoothly. Side by side, I recall the 26 feeling more maneuverable than the 29, but on the rides this weekend I didn’t really notice it, it felt good.

    You might have noticed the S&S couplings. As to packing? Too much fun riding to give that a try. But sometime between now and May 13th we will have to do it. We did remove the seats and the 3 middle bars, and it fits into the car quite nicely, took us about 15 minutes the second time we tried. With a little practice and coordination, probably won’t take much longer than putting it onto the roof, and for longer drives I think it is better inside the car than on the roof.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-ecdm.jpg  


  29. #129
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    That 29r, coupled in Blue looks pretty nice.

    Don't know why, but that fork, not the front fork, but the tube cluster just forward of the Captain seattube is an attention getter.

    I assume this was built by Alex and MTBTandems, and curious, are those Hope Brakes, the rear disc looks like it came off a Bugatti Supercar.

    Congrats and enjoy. I guess the May reference is a trip to AORTA.

    PK

  30. #130
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    Very nice! Is the painted rear triangle standard now, or an option? What size is the frame, 19/16? It's harder to guess, being a 29er. I have the Hope M4s. Other than the older front disk squealing I've never had an issue with them.

  31. #131
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    I'm tall, but short legs and long torso and the S&S is a full custom. The first iteration of the design had a 32" standover. I asked for something a bit lower and Sherwood gave me 29.5" but the fork design appeared. The top tube length is almost 24", limited by the size of the suitcase.

    Alex did the build and added the Hope brakes. We started somewhat reasonable, but then one thing led to another, and now we have the Hope Mono 6ti. But we also have lots of long, and sometimes steep downhills.

    And yes, we will be at AORTA.

  32. #132
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    Ecdm 29 S&s

    WOW - nice looking ride!!

    A few questions for you:
    1. How do you deal with the brake line when breaking down the bike? I guess I figured that a coupled mtb tandem would use Avid mechanicals with splitters - nice to see hydraulic brakes on it.

    2. Do you mind sharing how much does it cost for a 29er S&S frame?

    3. Do you know how much it weights?

    If we were to get another tandem, I think that an S&S 29er may just be the ticket. Please share your experience when you go to break down the bike completely for travel and let us know how it packs. Do you have 2 S&S cases? Also, I am interested to hear how it works out with airline fees - again please share after your AORTA trip.

    Also, if anyone has traveled with an mtb tandem, please share your experience and method of shipping, type of boxes, weight, costs etc. - it could make for an informative forum topic.

    Thanks!

  33. #133
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    Regarding the size: what's nice about ordering a bike like this, or really any of MTB Tandem's Ventana's or probably Fandango's is if the stock sizes don't fit, you can adjust any of the dimensions. Granted it costs a bit more, and takes slightly longer to build, but in the end you get something that fits. So comparing our numbers with a 26", it's like a 21/16 with a standover around that of a 17 to 19, and the 29er has 1" higher bottom braket height.

    The powder coated rear triangle was an option. Someone else in this forum commented on their order with it as well. I think it looks nice.

    We originally started with the Avid's, then Magura, and ended up with the Hope. The brake line came all neatly tie-wrapped. I was initially disappointed as it didn't come disassembleable out of the box. But thought about it, clipped off the tie-wraps and replaced them with Velcro strips. The brake lever just barely passes through the front fork, but fortunately it does.

    As to the cost, depends upon the build. But Alex's initial quote was roughly 2K over the non-S&S build. He says most of the S&S builds use Rohloff hubs, but I did the math and with a 29er, our hills, and my desire for lower gears, I choose the standard setup.

    Alex prepared us for a heavy bike, putting the ECDM's around 50lb, going 29 and S&S adding even more. I was expecting mid 50's. But with an all up weight of around 350lb, I figured 1% is 3.5 lb, and we are only riding recreationally that would be OK. So when I weighed it at 52lb ready to ride, I was pleased.

    We got 2 26x26x10 cases, which are airplane compliant, 18lb each 52+36lb => gives us 6lb left over for each box. So hopefully there are no additional charges of the standard luggage charge airlines have.

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    Great looking bike! As far as the airlines are concerned we travel with our coupled road tandem extensively in S&S cases and have never been charged any additional fees except the normal baggage fees. They just see them as large suitcases as long as they weigh less then 50 lbs each. It may be the only option soon as last year Delta Airlines says they no longer will ship tandems on the flights. BTW does anyone know if a 26 17/14 will fit in a regular Bike Pro tandem case? We probably won't travel with it much but I need to ship from Calif and if it fits in a case, that would work well and then we could travel with it when needed.
    Enjoy your new ride.
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by J&L
    We got 2 26x26x10 cases, which are airplane compliant, 18lb each 52+36lb => gives us 6lb left over for each box. So hopefully there are no additional charges of the standard luggage charge airlines have.
    Heh heh....

    So, does a 29er wheel fit in a 26x26 case?

  36. #136
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    With the tires off they will.

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    Hey everyone:

    Wanted to say a quick hello. I found this forum and read through a bunch of threads…great stuff!

    We have an old ECDM that I built while living in So Cal and working in a bike shop many moons ago. It literally was not ridden for most of the last decade. Sad really, but I just couldn’t part with it and I am glad I didn’t.

    Anyway my wife and I started are getting back into biking after about a 10 year hiatus. I picked up a new 29r single and a couple of road bikes for us last year and we are loving it. Looking forward to riding more and more. I am hoping that we will get back to tandem riding this next season. Although my wife is hinting that she would rather stick to the road, we’ll see what the year brings.

    About the ECDM: Old style frame (pre-2005 from what I gather from this site) with the shock on the top tube; Chris King headset, Azonic bars, titec seat posts, control tech stems, White Industry cranks and bottom bracket (I believe), Sun Rhynolite Rims with XT hubs, V-brakes, XT rear and sachs front derailleurs, and an old shock that I had laying around when I was building it (think it was an RST that I took apart and replaced the elastomers with springs worked fine at the time with my and the shop mechanic riding off road). Might look to replace the shock and upgrade a few other parts if/when we start riding more.

    Anyway, just wanted to say hey.

    I’ll try to post up some pics sometime.
    2010 GF X-Caliber
    2010 Trek 2.3
    1997 Ventana ECDM (tandem)
    1996 Mantis Pro Floater

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    New ECdM, it's quintuple-jointed

    We picked up our new S&S ECdM Saturday from Ventana. As always, wonderful service, as Teresa drove out to the office on the weekend to allow us to pick up the bike. We even got the tour, and the inside-scoop on the changes for the tandem.

    To answer some of ds2199's questions, the S&S 26" ECdM retails for $4700. That is ~$1500 more than the 26" non-S&S frame, but includes two cases, cable splitters, wrenches, and padding. We still have to plan out how the padding will work, so I have not built the frame yet. Regarding weight, it is quite a bit heavier than our aluminum frame. Ventana quotes 3-4 pounds increase for the 17/16, but each of the 2" couplers (two on our bike) are 3/4lb each, and there are three smaller couplers also. In any case, the front section weighs 3 pounds, the middle weighs 6.3 pounds, and the rear section comes in at 7.2 pounds including shock. Total frame weight including shock is ~16.5lb. Unfortunately I did not weight my aluminum frame before I sent it off to its new owner.

    In any case, I'll post a teaser picture and will follow up with the complete bike in a day or few.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-img_3000.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-img_2998.jpg  


  39. #139
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    Pretty Sporty, just like when the other one came back.

    I must ask though...see you went back to blue, and it's looks on the mark, but why not red?

    PK

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    We even got the tour, and the inside-scoop on the changes for the tandem.
    If you are talking about the big wait until the end of the month for the 2011 release info, there is some serious speculation.

    Not getting caught up in, my 10 cents would at least like to see a left side linkage with a redesigned profile to allow easier pressure setting changes. Not a big deal, more an inconvenience.

    Knowing the suspension points are very well optimized, at least for how we have abused our bike, I wonder if a new design swingarm is coming along with a beefed up frame fitting where the swingarm is attached.. The drop down behind the pivot and lightness of the frame fitting may be a point of some of the rear wag some have noticed in the rear shot videos. The bike is so long these are not realy noticed when riding, so NBD.

    We have no immediate plans to buy a new ECDM. When we do, I'm pretty certain I'll have them build us a custom with a three tube cluster at the headtube for a front triangle section that is even more torsionally stiff.

    PK

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK

    Not getting caught up in, my 10 cents would at least like to see a left side linkage with a redesigned profile to allow easier pressure setting changes. Not a big deal, more an inconvenience.

    PK
    I bought a little "noodle" that swaps for the standard filler on the Fox. Seemed a little pricy at 20 or 25 bucks, but the convenience it has brought has made it more than worth it.
    I got it from that tuning shop in Colorado....


    -Charlie

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Pretty Sporty, just like when the other one came back.

    I must ask though...see you went back to blue, and it's looks on the mark, but why not red?
    Ferrari Red was the captain's choice and a surprise for the stoker. This blue was the stoker's choice and a surprise for the captain. Each time we both narrowed the choices to a few and let the other pick.

    I'm not a fan of the metallic colors, so the first change from Cosmic Blue to FR was as much because of the lack of metallic as the ability to change color due to the repair. Both of us really like blue as a color, though, and while we really liked FR, this blue is even better.

    FWIW, the RP23 we got on our bike has the pressure valve facing the same direction as the PP lever, just pointing to the right ~20°. I can get to it without interference by the rocker. AFAIK it is the 2011 part, since that's what is on the cover of the very thick but essentially useless Fox "Owner's Manual." Dunno if the pressure valve location is new for 2011.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    Ferrari Red was the captain's choice and a surprise for the stoker. This blue was the stoker's choice and a surprise for the captain. Each time we both narrowed the choices to a few and let the other pick.

    I'm not a fan of the metallic colors, so the first change from Cosmic Blue to FR was as much because of the lack of metallic as the ability to change color due to the repair. Both of us really like blue as a color, though, and while we really liked FR, this blue is even better.

    FWIW, the RP23 we got on our bike has the pressure valve facing the same direction as the PP lever, just pointing to the right ~20°. I can get to it without interference by the rocker. AFAIK it is the 2011 part, since that's what is on the cover of the very thick but essentially useless Fox "Owner's Manual." Dunno if the pressure valve location is new for 2011.
    That Blue is really nice. I'm excited to see the entire bike built. It will be a great bike.

    Yes Fox has changed the valve location, it may have changed in 2010. Again, it's a minimal thing, but I can hope.

    Can I ask where your Red frame went. Hopefully another Florida Tandem

    PK

  44. #144
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    Julian,
    That is a beautiful frame. we'll need to get together for a ride after you get it built. We met up with Bill & Nancy a couple of weekends ago. Maybe we could set up something at Sycamore for a group ride?
    I thought your bike was larger than a 17/16?
    Keep us posted on the build.

    Pz

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    I guess this refresh will apply across the board (from singles to tandems):
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-ventana-todo.jpg  


  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyJ
    I guess this refresh will apply across the board (from singles to tandems):
    We can hope, dream and wish, but don't hold your breath for all of it.

    Off the top, no one makes BB30 tandem cranks.

    I assume this will be like dirt bikes. The race bikes get the upgrades year one, the woods bikes get the majority of upgrades the next year.

    Purely speculation, so like others I'm just waiting too.

    PK

  47. #147
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    Somehow I stumbled upon this tool kit and knowing the pivot bearings should probably be regreased I had Alex get one for me.

    http://www.ventanausa.com/images/Bearingpresstool.jpg

    Haven't tried it yet but should make easy work with no damage.

    I'm hoping my regreasers will fit the bearing to make it really easy.

    http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...sregreaser.php

    Time will tell.

    PK

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    We can hope, dream and wish, but don't hold your breath for all of it.

    Off the top, no one makes BB30 tandem cranks.

    I assume this will be like dirt bikes. The race bikes get the upgrades year one, the woods bikes get the majority of upgrades the next year.

    Purely speculation, so like others I'm just waiting too.

    PK
    Very true, though on the BB30 stuff, doesn't Phil Wood make a square tapered axle to fit into BB30 bearings?

    Also, considering the cost of tandem specific cranksets, there probably isn't much difference in getting extra regular cranksets and stick some helicoils into the crank arms where appropriate (or use reversed pedal axles) if one must use cross-over drive.

    I'd personally would just spec a Rohloff anyway, so could run a tandem fully right-hand drive without having to jump through hoops, AFAIK.

  49. #149
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    BB30, with right side drive, with a Rohloff

    Not inexpensive, but possible, have to run a chain tensioner to allow suspension movement though.

    So a BB30, right side drive, Rohloff, ECDM, with the listed changes to rear suspension, tube lengths, seatpost diameters and so on, interesting idea.

    As for the helicoil trick, never done it but know it will work. I've been looking and it's becoming more difficult to locate three sets of matching cranks to make one tandem set.

    My search has been for Race Face ISIS stuff. I'd don't mind the Shimano stuff, but XT grade BB's are no longer made, LX can be gotten in some sizes.

    Luckily at the moment we are good on "real" tandem cranksets. But as I keep an eye out for converting single bike stuff, it just seems more cost effective to go with Middleburn and be done.

    Staying focused on the new 2011 ECDM's, I would love to see and hope Sherwood makes the changes as applicable to the ECDM. Still though, for us, if we buy a new ECDM, I'm pretty certain she'll be custom.

    Thing is, these bikes truly fall into the "it's not the arrow it's the indian" rule. Yes we made some big upgrades to our suspension, mainly based on finding the limits of the tires grip. Even as full on as it is now, our 100% is not yet at the bikes 100% and I suspect that we might not fare well when either hits 101%. Unless there is a real need, (Al & Jan) our last 10% is saved for TP moments, 1% more is for bandaids.

  50. #150
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    I asked about the tandem changes and Teresa mentioned going to three standard sizes, the bigger seat post size, tapered head tube, and some other stuff. Didn't seem major, but I am glad I got our S&S before the changes simply from a "reuse 100% of my parts" point of view. If I ever need a tapered head tube, I'm sure I'll be able to get it R&Red.

    Finally got the bike together and, I think, dialed in for its initial ride tomorrow.

    Strangely, while the bare frame felt much heavier than the aluminum frame, the complete bike doesn't feel much heavier than the complete aluminum bike. Back to Ventana's 3-4 pound gain estimate and despite early concerns, I doubt I'll feel it on the trail.

    Patrick, we are always up for a group ride, all the more-so in Sycamore. I think Bill and Nancy will enjoy the city-to-the-sea route. Weather seems to be holding well, and the trails are in great condition at the moment.

    Paul, the frame went to New York, unfortunately.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-img_3012.jpg  


  51. #151
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    What are your thoughts about using something like Frame Saver? Looking into the tubes of our new S&S you can already see some signs of oxidation.

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    I hadn't even thought about it. Alex would probably be the best data point for this, though I can send an e-mail to Teresa to get Ventana's take. While there's a big difference between oxidation, surface corrosion, and major rust, we're looking at our new frame as our frame for the next 20 years.

  53. #153
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    Expensive frames oxidize. Other frames rust. But after 20 yrs, I bet it's all the same.

    I asked Alex and he said he didn't think they were treated. There seemed to be many postings on other forums recommending it. But after spending the past week applying it I wonder. On the tubes that I can see in, it is a very thin coating and will probably do the job. Also I got to watch how the fluid flows. On the tubes you cannot see inside of, I really wonder how complete a coating people really do?

    If it is something really useful, Ventana or Alex could offer it as a value added option. It would certainly be worth it, as it was somewhat time consuming. Plus with experience, I bet they would do a better job than us "firsttimers" would do.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyJ
    I guess this refresh will apply across the board (from singles to tandems):

    While riding today, I wondered if anyone makes 30.9 stoker stems or if these will be a Ventana manufactured item.

    Current size is 27.2

    Our Co-Mo is I believe 29.8 or 28.9 so I wonder who offers these stems.

    28.6 is 1 1/8 so standard stuff is a no go,

    31.8 is 1 1/4.

    Control Tech only shows 29.8 or 31.6, so I guess it's control tech with a shim of 30.9 to 31.6. .7mm total or .35mm on radius, so cut a soda or beer can with scissors and see how close she comes.

    Not sure what a Santana size is, but doubt it's 30.9.

    I don't know if RE will do a mountain stoker stem.

    PK

  55. #155
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    Our steel Burley Rumba S&S coupled road tandem was starting to rust inside after a very wet Hawaii trip. After that I used the framesaver stuff on it. Of course, it was much easier to apply on an S&S coupled frame. I've started using it on our steel single bikes because of that. I haven't noticed any corrosion in our aluminum framed bikes so I haven't bothered to treat any of them. I was thinking of drilling drainage holes in the bottom brackets though.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    While riding today, I wondered if anyone makes 30.9 stoker stems or if these will be a Ventana manufactured item.
    More conjecture...

    I think it would be safe to assume that the 30.9 seattube on solo FS frames would be to allow the use of dropper seatposts.

    Could they apply to Ventana FS tandems? I know for a fact they'd be handy around my neck of the woods. If indeed FS tandems will at some point allow this, there'll have to be some other way to attach a stoker stem, where the most common solution seems to be some form of dummy steerer...

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyJ
    More conjecture...

    I think it would be safe to assume that the 30.9 seattube on solo FS frames would be to allow the use of dropper seatposts.

    Could they apply to Ventana FS tandems? I know for a fact they'd be handy around my neck of the woods. If indeed FS tandems will at some point allow this, there'll have to be some other way to attach a stoker stem, where the most common solution seems to be some form of dummy steerer...

    Yes conjecture...

    The larger seatpost would also be a compliment to the aluminum frame.

    I forgot about those droppers seatposts...where we live and ride they fell off the map around 1992. Seems they are making a come back in some parts of the country / world though.

    PK
    Last edited by PMK; 02-06-2011 at 05:12 AM.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    I asked about the tandem changes and Teresa mentioned going to three standard sizes, the bigger seat post size, tapered head tube, and some other stuff.

    Paul, the frame went to New York, unfortunately.
    Cool the frame went to the Northeast, that area has quite a following or leading depending upon how strong a team they are of tandems, both dirty and polished.

    Maybe Ed knows the new owner.

    PK

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    Hi Paul,
    I don't know of any new MTB tandem users here but we are just beginning to see bare ground so we may actually get on the trails within a week or two. We have been using the Ventana on the road locally as our Co Mo road tandem is a steel frame and don't want to expose it to all the stuff they put down for ice and snow.
    Ed

  60. #160
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    I understood from Teresa that the tandem seatpost size would stay at 27.2mm. Some sizing tweaks are about the only change for ECDM's, unless I didn't get the whole story...
    MTB Tandems Inc.
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    In my defence Alex, we were picking up our new frame and so I may not have been paying strict attention to the changes in the new frames. I did ask, but then started staring around the Ventana shop during her reply.

    First ride occured yesterday and other than some additional weight noticed when lifting the bike in/out of the truck, or lifting the rear to swing it around when not riding, neither I or my stoker noticed any real difference with the bike in motion. That opinion may change as we get more miles on it, but there wasn't obvious flex (ala our Burley road tandem) or weight issues. Still some sloppy conditions in Malibu Creek State Park, but the e-tape on the lower-front coupler was all that was needed. The 2011 RP23 seems to want 10-15psi more than our '06 RP2.

  62. #162
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    The obvious thing is none of the changes matter until we really know, but like so many other surprises in life, it's fun to just wonder


    Could not tell from the photos, but does the new frame have a small air sleeve or large?

    You obviously did not mention the pressure increase to the stoker. Just kidding.

    PK

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    Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.

    When asked, stoker mentioned things felt a little softer, but she didn't feel it enough to volunteer that info. If this time is like last time, I'll adjust it until she doesn't have a comment beyond "it works fine."

    I did have a couple loose-ish couplers after the ride. The S&S wrenches say to check the tightness before every ride. I guess they're not kidding. If they continue to loosen I may end up packing a spare wrench, just in case. Blue Loctite is also an option, as a thread-locker. Might also help with dust incursion, but I'd check with S&S to see. Stainless is fine with Loctite, but the couplers aren't exactly something I can replace at a whim.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.

    When asked, stoker mentioned things felt a little softer, but she didn't feel it enough to volunteer that info. If this time is like last time, I'll adjust it until she doesn't have a comment beyond "it works fine."

    I did have a couple loose-ish couplers after the ride. The S&S wrenches say to check the tightness before every ride. I guess they're not kidding. If they continue to loosen I may end up packing a spare wrench, just in case. Blue Loctite is also an option, as a thread-locker. Might also help with dust incursion, but I'd check with S&S to see. Stainless is fine with Loctite, but the couplers aren't exactly something I can replace at a whim.


    I would be very careful with Loctite on that much surface area of threads and those small wrenching flats. Personally, I would tighten to your preferred amount, then using some red nail polish, paint a couple of witness marks across the couplers. This will allow you to "see" if the coupler unwound or is just seating further.

    On a side note. Had it been the size large, or for that matter if it had fit us, we would have bought my friends 2010 Co-Motion Periscope 26" wheel Co-Pilot (coupled) travel tandem. I had the bike at home for a few days to let us test it and while I did not tear it down, I noticed those hook spanner notches are not very deep.

    FWIW, stainless is also one of the materials that likes to seize or cold weld itself, especially to other materials. Your being meticulous about keeping the joints clean is good and based on you keeping this thing 20 years I would not be stingy with coupler lube.

    FWIW, we have not owned a coupled bike. All my experience has been on the Co-Mo, and few that were in my friends shop. The ones in the shop were customer bikes that had gotten tough to get apart.


    Now, about that air sleeve. I had heard, but have not seen, that Fox went to a larger volume air sleeve on the RP's. A photo would be nice and make things simple. The DHX style air sleeve will interchange with our RP and the RP's will fit a DHX.

    You have the correct attitude about the pressure, find what works to establish good sag or preload (base pressure), the amount of air volume has a lot to do with how the bike feels when ridden. The air volume must also work in harmony with the chassis's linkage. While not always an easy change, the air volume is another possible tuning tool. Light teams and especially lighter stokers will most often prefer a greater air volume allowing full use of the suspensions travel but also providing a more firm initial air spring rate. The same team on a small air volume would run less initial pressure, giving a more compliant ride while still using all available travel.

    FWIW, 99.9% of the folks riding airshox just pump it to some book pressure or a sag that feels good and let it rip. For us, when the tandem wallows around, it takes a lot of effort to ride it and riding fast is less possible.

    Often, the larger air sleeves they will not be tapered to a smaller diameter near the PP lever end of the shock assembly. Small air sleeves will taper down.

    PK

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.

    .
    That is the new stock "small" air can. Or as Fox calls it, Regular Air Can. Same size as on my ECDM. The new RP23 run larger cans across the board and do require slighly higher PSI, found that to be true on my single bikes as well.

    Okay, are you in the Bay Area?
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  66. #166
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    Ciclistagonzo

    Any chance you could post your tandem ride photos from the Ventana section. Pretty cool.

    PK

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    We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.

    Paul, I've attached a picture of our RP23. In looking at pictures, the air sleeve is a larger volume than our ~'06 RP2, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

    We are a ~350lb team plus gear and bike. I had kept ~170psi in the RP2 with PP on and 5 clicks of clockwise rebound from full CCW. Will be attempting 10psi increases in air pressure until stoker agrees it is better.

    Unfortunately for us I just confirmed with my stoker that the AORTA dates won't play nice with her job as a school teacher (and the time it'd take to fly from CA in order to ride all three days). So we'll miss your suspension class. And the other 29 teams.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-img_3018.jpg  


  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Ciclistagonzo

    Any chance you could post your tandem ride photos from the Ventana section. Pretty cool.

    PK
    Ah you're making me blush! And here they are:

    My 8 yr old Son and I approaching the biggest Obstacle of the day,
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31268906@N08/5433146812/" title="IMG_1279 by CiclistaGonzo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5433146812_1630d1c337_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMG_1279" /></a>

    1/2 way thru it, I love the look on my son's Face.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31268906@N08/5432538183/" title="IMG_1281 by CiclistaGonzo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5432538183_3d21fe356f_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMG_1281" /></a>


    But we were tame compared to what Sherwood does with his youngest:

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31268906@N08/5433149296/" title="IMG_1294 by CiclistaGonzo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4094/5433149296_d59203063d_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMG_1294" /></a>
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31268906@N08/5433150480/" title="IMG_1296 by CiclistaGonzo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5132/5433150480_fbdf615e3f_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMG_1296" /></a>

    And then they did even steeper...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31268906@N08/5433151676/" title="IMG_1310 by CiclistaGonzo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5212/5433151676_8dae4b41e4_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMG_1310" /></a>
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31268906@N08/5433153016/" title="IMG_1316 by CiclistaGonzo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5178/5433153016_77a9411c76_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMG_1316" /></a>

    Now that temps are getting a wee bit warmer, hoping to get the kiddos out more to ride.
    Last edited by Ciclistagonzo; 02-10-2011 at 12:36 AM.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.
    Gotcha, I thought you might be closer since I noticed you mentioned picking up the frame directly from V and getting the tour.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  70. #170
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    Great photos. When you look closer, the stokers add so much. Your son in photo 2 has the wow face happening.

    Sherwoods son is obviously hamming it up in one photo, but is curious and looking around dad before the drop in.

    Great photos but more important, you two had the experience of a hopefully a great time. Possibly one of the main reason to ride a tandem.

    PK

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.

    Paul, I've attached a picture of our RP23. In looking at pictures, the air sleeve is a larger volume than our ~'06 RP2, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

    We are a ~350lb team plus gear and bike. I had kept ~170psi in the RP2 with PP on and 5 clicks of clockwise rebound from full CCW. Will be attempting 10psi increases in air pressure until stoker agrees it is better.

    Unfortunately for us I just confirmed with my stoker that the AORTA dates won't play nice with her job as a school teacher (and the time it'd take to fly from CA in order to ride all three days). So we'll miss your suspension class. And the other 29 teams.
    One of these newer RP23 higher volume rear dampers was dropped off for a rebuild last night. It is slightly shorter than the tandems, but I give it a close look and see if I can find where the volume was added and if it could easily have the volume altered as a tuning aid.

    Don't get worked up over missing the little suspension dealio, I am more bummed you won't be there riding.

    Any chance of you shipping the bike ahead, then take one day off (Friday so you two could catch a late Thursday flight, then head out for an afternoon flight Sunday). Makes it a bit tight and hectic, but from my personal experience last year, getting there was beyond a challenge, but we had a great time all said and done.

    Our way cool granddaughter decided to arrive early and totally altered our travel arrangements. That was one trip I pushed until I had no more and the body said you will sleep NOW.

    PK

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Great photos. When you look closer, the stokers add so much. Your son in photo 2 has the wow face happening.

    Sherwoods son is obviously hamming it up in one photo, but is curious and looking around dad before the drop in.

    Great photos but more important, you two had the experience of a hopefully a great time. Possibly one of the main reason to ride a tandem.

    PK
    Great time was had for sure. My son's Wow face made my day, He says after, "You can ride down big rocks?" my reply, yup and bigger, and the tandem can get down bigger and steeper stuff than a single bike. My son "Cool",

    Sherwood's son is a littler ripper already, following Dad will only make him faster. I like going out with them, since my kids pick up tips by watching Alex (Sherwood's son).
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  73. #173
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    Just built...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-blue-sands-29er-tandem006.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-blue-sands-29er-tandem004.jpg  

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  74. #174
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    fork?

    Is that the White Loop? I didn't know that they were going to "tandem" that one. They keep trying to talk me into a modified DH fork.

  75. #175
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    Is that headed to New York by chance?????????????????????????
    Ed and Pat Gifford

  76. #176
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    Looks like the pic Jeff & Wendy sent us this weekend.!!!!.....they said they are anxious to use it on the PA & VT trails trips this year. :-).....they always did sooo good...now they should really rock & roll on the trails...& have a bit more comfort on this bike!
    Larry & Brenda
    (Team Breeze)

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemNut
    Just built...
    Alex - tell us about that fork please.

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    Alex - tell us about that fork please.
    White Bros Magic 100T 29'er single crown. Very similar internals to the M100T dual crown version, slightly smaller air chamber. More bushing overlap than the DC actually. Very beefy crown structure, same 20mm dropouts, same IMV setup. Heavilty butted steer tube.
    Uncut weight of the SC is about 8oz + - less than the DC. (haven't weighed cut bersions yet. Suitable for lighter teams. .
    We are looking for a tapered steerer version later this year as well.
    Finally, another 29'er option.
    Maybe this needs a new thread. I'll get some more photos and some ride feedback soon.
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  79. #179
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    Just built...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-red-29er-ecdm-rohloff-photos003.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-red-29er-ecdm-rohloff-photos008.jpg  

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  80. #180
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    Through the help of some members of this forum we bought a used EDCM in Jan in California and just last weekend we flew down to pick it up and get our first ride. We picked a very bad weekend due to extreme rains but did manage to get one ride in, which was very wet and very cold. The good news was we loved the bike and my wife who was skeptical of a mtn tandem had a blast. She is a very strong single bike rider and has enjoyed the road tandem but felt no need for a mtn one but is now convinced and is looking forward to captaining it with our daughter and daughter inlaws. I found the handling to be very forgiving and much like our singles just a little longer. Now that it is home we will fine tune the suspension to match our weight and conditions here in Alaska. thanks to all for the help
    Mark
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-img_1177.jpg  


  81. #181
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    In order to get our bike home I built a custom travel case that we can now use to haul the mtn tandem to events. It was built to meet the dimensions allowed by the airlines. It has wheels on the bottom to allow eay movement thru airports etc. It weights 39 lbs so with the bike it is just under 100lbs. Alaska Airlines charged us $50 to take it as a piece of luggage, in fact we brought 3 tandems home for $50 each (bike pro case and pro pedal case and the custom case). We love Alaska Airlines as they still belief in customer service and get all of our business.
    Enjoy
    Mark
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-img_1181.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-img_1182.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-dsc_2300.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-dsc_2302.jpg  

    The ECDM thread-dsc_2307.jpg  


  82. #182
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    Can you provide some details on what material you used and how you built that box? That's very cool.
    Glad to hear at least some arilines remember who pays the bills. Our hometown airline has completely forgotten.
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  83. #183
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    Is that corrugated plastic?

  84. #184
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    The material is called Corocel made by the same company as Coroplast that is corrugated. The material I used is solid 1/4 inch thickness. I could not find the corrugated in the right thickness in San Francisco in the short time I was there or I probably would have used it. The solid material is very easy to "glue" they call it chemical welding with a pvc glue they sell for it that bonds it essentially instantly. We used butt joints with small pieces of the material bonded on the insides of the corners for reinforcement. I added some Aluminum angles on the corners for extra security but it probably wasn't necessary. The material is very easy to cut and I used a table saw to make all the cuts. The bike flew from San Fran to Anchorage with one plane change and showed no effects on the box. TSA inspected it and did not put the straps on as tight as I did so next time I am going to rivet the straps in place so they only have to reattach the buckles. I used 2 4x8 sheets and the in inner box is 72x28x10 inches and the outer box fits snugly over it. We lined it with firm foam and used pipe insulation to cover the paint and protect parts. It took about 20 minutes to take the bike apart and pack it and a little longer to put it back together. I marked the fork with a sharpie to make reinstalling easier. I think it will work for many trips. I added webbing straps on the ends and small casters to make travel in the airports easier. It is relatively water tight so I had no problem strapping the whole box directly to the roof rack of the rental car. We had two road tandems and our luggage inside and the mtn tandem on top in a Toyota Rav 4. We were very surprised it all fit. If you used the corrugated material you could make folds instead and use box rivets to secure the folds. It would have been easier with only a few cuts and maybe a few lbs lighter. I am not sure about durability of the corrugated plastic but probably more then adequate. I just couldn't bring myself to use a cardboard box and I know we will travel with it so I went ahead and made the travel box. We are already planning to do the White rim trail in Utah this October with it.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress
    The material is called Corocel made by the same company as Coroplast that is corrugated. The material I used is solid 1/4 inch thickness. I could not find the corrugated in the right thickness in San Francisco in the short time I was there or I probably would have used it. The solid material is very easy to "glue" they call it chemical welding with a pvc glue they sell for it that bonds it essentially instantly. We used butt joints with small pieces of the material bonded on the insides of the corners for reinforcement. I added some Aluminum angles on the corners for extra security but it probably wasn't necessary. The material is very easy to cut and I used a table saw to make all the cuts. The bike flew from San Fran to Anchorage with one plane change and showed no effects on the box. TSA inspected it and did not put the straps on as tight as I did so next time I am going to rivet the straps in place so they only have to reattach the buckles. I used 2 4x8 sheets and the in inner box is 72x28x10 inches and the outer box fits snugly over it. We lined it with firm foam and used pipe insulation to cover the paint and protect parts. It took about 20 minutes to take the bike apart and pack it and a little longer to put it back together. I marked the fork with a sharpie to make reinstalling easier. I think it will work for many trips. I added webbing straps on the ends and small casters to make travel in the airports easier. It is relatively water tight so I had no problem strapping the whole box directly to the roof rack of the rental car. We had two road tandems and our luggage inside and the mtn tandem on top in a Toyota Rav 4. We were very surprised it all fit. If you used the corrugated material you could make folds instead and use box rivets to secure the folds. It would have been easier with only a few cuts and maybe a few lbs lighter. I am not sure about durability of the corrugated plastic but probably more then adequate. I just couldn't bring myself to use a cardboard box and I know we will travel with it so I went ahead and made the travel box. We are already planning to do the White rim trail in Utah this October with it.
    Very interesting... I like this design. More pictures please!

    Also, White Rim in Ocotober??? Are you doing this with a tour? How many days? I suppose these questions can be answered off list so as to not derail thread..

    Thanks!

  86. #186
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    Here's our ECDM on a memorable Idaho day with my Son.
    I thought I'd better post it before it's gone as sadly we are selling it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-fish-hook-creek.jpg  


  87. #187
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    Just realized in all the 11 years we've been building Ventanas, we've never put a black ECDM together. Must say, it looks very cool:
    This one's headed to South Africa. Notice the revised frame geometry for increased standover (this is a 19/16 size). Longer captain's compartment is part of the tweak. Not visible is the tapered 44mm/56mm inset head tube. Very cool, clean setup that allows for more fork options, and an adjustable head angle with a CC AngleSet. Only Sherwood and Ventana could improve on the ECDM, and I think he's outdone himself with the new version...We'll have a couple of demos in the fleet later this month (once we decide on colors). Looking forward to getting some time on the revised frame.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The ECDM thread-black-ventana-black-fandango003.jpg  

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  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemNut View Post
    Only Sherwood and Ventana could improve on the ECDM, and I think he's outdone himself with the new version...We'll have a couple of demos in the fleet later this month (once we decide on colors). Looking forward to getting some time on the revised frame.

    Heck with colors...Get them to polish one.

    PK

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by giff07 View Post
    Hi All,
    Here are some pics of the skid plate. I need to start out by saying this is not my invention but that of my riding buddy Larry Isherwood. It is a piece of PVC piping but it isn't your Home Depot Sched. 40. It is very thin walled. I think the size is 3". We used to have a piping for sewer drain/DWV that was like this but the building codes have changed and now its all Sched. 40. The closest thing I could find was piping for an in home vacuum system and I couldn't find it locally. Larry found another small piece of this piping at work and made one for us as a gift for our new ECDM.( Thanks again, Lar) The material inside is thin foam weather stripping. Larry cut it by hand with a mini hacksaw and blade but I think a Dremil tool would do the job. You will notice the notch at one end. This is for chain and granny gear clearance. Also a series of drain holes were drilled in the bottom on centerline. It is cut so it fits snugly around the boom tube and would probably be OK like that but we use high voltage electrical tape that sticks only to itself to secure it at both ends. It leaves no glue residue on the finish.We have scraped over some obstacles and this takes the worry out of damaging your paint/powder coat finish. I put the color matched flames on just to add a personal touch.
    Please post any other inventions of this nature so we can all share our wisdom.
    Ed Gifford
    Toms River, NJ
    During AORTA 2011, I got a look at this glide plate on the Snot Rocket. For months I have been kicking myself about not buying some 6/4 titanium tubing to fabricate a glide plate from.

    Using up a favor, I may have sourced the entirely wrong material but will afford high cool factor in that I hope to build a glide plate from some 12k carbon. Stay tuned. Now to go find a tube to convert into a mold.

    I'm finally stepping up after a near miss with a huge rock at AORTA 2011 while descending the trail from the mountain top with the drop offs like stairs. We hit the captains chainring as we dropped off. Suffice to say we carried the pulverized rock on the chain to the bottom. Slightly faster and it would have really gotten the lower tube.

    Stay tuned.

    This is worthwhile to save your frame if you attempt silly stuff. Larry and Brendas Fandango shot on the MTBTandems homepage is good evidence.

    PK

  90. #190
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    ECDM and John Wayne

    So I know I don't get on here and post a lot, or even as much as I should, but I was trolling around the web and decided to check rates at the Apache Motel in Moab, Ut. I thought that there might be a chance to get away for a couple days with the C-ECDM and found this pic on their main page.


    I would say that John (stoker) and I are in pretty good company there and they are a Tandem Friendly place to stay.
    Zipper aka Rob

  91. #191
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    ECDM 29er reviews?

    Anyone care to share their experience with their full suspension 29" wheeled tandem? Please

  92. #192
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    Looking for a good excuse?

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199 View Post
    Anyone care to share their experience with their full suspension 29" wheeled tandem? Please
    West Coast Bike...

    PK
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  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trails4Two View Post
    Looking for a good excuse?
    I'm not sure that I need an "excuse", but would like some real world feedback. On paper, I'm sold on the 29er platform for tandem use. The Fandango just plain rocks!

    So now it is just a decision as to how long before we trade up the 26" ECDM for the 29". That said, I would like to hear from someone who has ridden the Full Squish Big Wheeled bike.

  95. #195
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    We love our 29" ECDM, although we are not the most aggressive riders out there. Been to Sedona and dealt with small rock steps w/o problem. Here in Northern CA we have lots of large washed out ruts in trails. Been thankful for the suspension it really absorbs the impacts.

  96. #196
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    J&L, where in NorCal? We frequent the upper state on vacations, though we mostly stick to the coast areas from Point Reyes upward. Always looking for good trails up there and new people to ride with.

  97. #197
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    Okayfine - I started a Northern Cal thread so as not to hijack this one.

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    How about a 650b tandem. My El Testigo looks like it has the clearence, I'll have to see it it would work.

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    How about a 650b tandem. My El Testigo looks like it has the clearence, I'll have to see it it would work.
    As a 650B fan, and owner. (Custom Chiquillo 650B hardtail), I checked into that and if your Testigo has the adjustable dropouts you can. On my Bruja (V1) I could just clear in the middle setting and easily cleared in the longest seatstay setting.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    How about a 650b tandem. My El Testigo looks like it has the clearence, I'll have to see it it would work.

    We have no intention currently to go 650, but curious if you tried this yet and how it worked for you.

    This may seem a dumb question, but what ultimate gain are you expecting, obviously better rolling, somehow though this seems a bit moot on some of these heavy bikes. Guessing you would buy a 29 ECDM if possible?

    Not knocking the idea or condemning it, just more curious to see if the effort will be worthy to the results.

    PK
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