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Thread: The ECDM thread

  1. #376
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    Received the rear wheel back from CK HQ. Looks like this time they replaced the axle as well as another large drive side bearing. Looking good on time and weather for lots of riding during the extended Turkey week/ends. Black Friday ain't got nuthin' on brown singletrack.

  2. #377
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    As December 13 rolls in, sad to see many parts of the US getting hit with snow or ice.

    On a flip side, this is a fun cool time of year for us, so the ECDM logged some more miles on 12/8.

    If anyone needs to break the winter and has cycling plans for some off-road down south, let us know and we will see about making something happen.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  3. #378
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    Guess what's making noise again?

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine View Post
    Guess what's making noise again?
    So, third time is the charm. I guess. Last eight months has seen our tandem out of action for 2.5 months due to our CK hub issue. CK had our wheel again and warrantied the hub, but didn't build it. Since they kept on about the spoke tension, I figured they'd have used this to set it up the way they wanted it. Continue to be disappointed in how little information CK passes along (cause, fixes, etc.). Makes it hard to avoid a repeat if I don't know what they think was the original cause.

    As it is, the wheel is off at our builder's. Taking the additional downtime to get some spring maintenance done on the bike. New rear pads, new drive chain, new rear tire, might even be time for a rear shock seal kit. Past time for a fork oil change and seals. Everything else looks good for the moment, but I'll need to get some Middleburn sync rings sooner than later.

  5. #380
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    Our brief 2-year report:

    ECDM 29er
    Fork: Fox 34 Talas 110
    Drivetrain: Middleburn cranks, XTR F/R derailleurs & shifters
    Brakes: XTR F/R levers & calipers, XT 203mm rotors
    Wheels: King hubs 32H to Stan's Flow rims - hand built by my stoker
    Tires: Specialized FastTrak Control F/R 40 PSI tubeless

    Our tandem rides are limited to longer "gravel grinder" events about 4 times per year. The fork works well for these courses, which include some pretty rough double track but no technically difficult trail. We have had no problems with the wheels. The tires generally perform nicely on the gravel, though we've suffered a slice or two.

    Two issues noted:
    1. The Middleburn chainrings did not work well with the XTR derailleur and Shimano chain. Lorinda replaced the big ring with a DynaSys ring (matching BCD) and the ramps & pins perform much better. Shifting is great now.
    2. Rear braking is spongier than I'd like, though not inadequate. She's improved this by intermittently bleeding the brakes but the issue persists. She thinks this may be a factor of hose length. Since her original bike build, Shimano has released new brake hose that may take care of the issue but she hasn't had time to install it. We had planned to test it out at Kanza, but probably won't make it this year.


  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by ycookmd View Post
    Our brief 2-year report:

    ECDM 29er
    Fork: Fox 34 Talas 110
    Drivetrain: Middleburn cranks, XTR F/R derailleurs & shifters
    Brakes: XTR F/R levers & calipers, XT 203mm rotors
    Wheels: King hubs 32H to Stan's Flow rims - hand built by my stoker
    Tires: Specialized FastTrak Control F/R 40 PSI tubeless

    Our tandem rides are limited to longer "gravel grinder" events about 4 times per year. The fork works well for these courses, which include some pretty rough double track but no technically difficult trail. We have had no problems with the wheels. The tires generally perform nicely on the gravel, though we've suffered a slice or two.

    Two issues noted:
    1. The Middleburn chainrings did not work well with the XTR derailleur and Shimano chain. Lorinda replaced the big ring with a DynaSys ring (matching BCD) and the ramps & pins perform much better. Shifting is great now.
    2. Rear braking is spongier than I'd like, though not inadequate. She's improved this by intermittently bleeding the brakes but the issue persists. She thinks this may be a factor of hose length. Since her original bike build, Shimano has released new brake hose that may take care of the issue but she hasn't had time to install it. We had planned to test it out at Kanza, but probably won't make it this year.

    In regards to the brakes, yes it could be the hose is soft and expanding when pressure is applied. A simple addition to the bleed process is to degas the fluid prior to bleeding. Take a strong glass jar with a tight sealed lid. Mason type jar can work. Put the brake fluid inside. Then close the lid and apply 28" or more vacuum to the jars interior. Let it sit under vacuum for several minutes. This will remove micro bubbles from the fluid and may firm the system.

    Again, it may be the hose, but this is easy. Plus if you change the hose, the degas method can be used then also.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  7. #382
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    Paul, that's good info. For the home mechanic, how woul you go about applying vacuum to the mason jar?

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  8. #383
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  9. #384
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    I've got a mityvac but can't think of how to use it to pressurize a mason jar....

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  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine View Post
    exactly

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhopton View Post
    I've got a mityvac but can't think of how to use it to pressurize a mason jar....

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
    Small hole in the top, then use the suction cup attachment. You will be pulling vacuum, not pressure. Then use the degassed fluid in the brake system. If possible, vacuum bleed the brake system.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  12. #387
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    brilliant Paul...

  13. #388
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    Different versions of the Mityvac will allow pressure as well, but as Paul indicated, you'll just be pulling vacuum.

  14. #389
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    Fitting a braided rear hose fixed my spongie rear brake.

  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by switchbacktrog View Post
    Fitting a braided rear hose fixed my spongie rear brake.
    Agree 100%, however most of the better brakes have good quality hoses as oem. FWIW, when we got our ECDM, it had Magura brakes front and rear. They came with braided stainless hoses. Others had mentioned that the brakes often were soft and vague. I totally purged the existing fluid. The replacement fluid was degassed and bled into the brake system. With the large rotor on the front at 210mm and smaller rear rotor at 185(?)mm, the bike had no issues stopping after a proper bleed.

    Some people may not realize that this is also how I bleed the clutch on my KTM250exc, but also the rear shock is bleed under vacuum. It is pretty crazy how much air as micro bubbles is in fluid that you can not see.

    Yes a better hose is always best, possibly, when the new hose was installed, the bleed with fresh fluid became a factor also.

    If you run hydraulic brakes, you might consider bleeding the rear often and the front with the rear or every other rear bleed. A fresh bleed and new fluid is important for heavily used brakes.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  16. #391
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    While I didn't degas the fluid, I did have some sponginess in my Hope brakes. The Hopes use DOT 5.1 fluid, which turned out to be somewhat difficult to find - even the local moto shops didn't carry it. The Hopes bled just like a traditional car system; take off the cover of the master cylinder, fill, squeeze lever 5 times and hold tight, crack the nipple at the caliper briefly and retighten before introducing air in the caliper. Repeat until you're satisfied and at all costs don't let the master cylinder get too low on fluid.

    For the rear, I completely flushed the system with fresh fluid - I was amazed at the color and amount of dirt in the system. There's obviously a lot of heat at the caliper that degrades the fluid, etc.

    With cleaned, lubed calipers, fresh sintered pads and cleaned rotors, I do believe the system is better than when new as there was always the requirement to "pump up" the brakes when starting a ride. No longer is that needed.



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  17. #392
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    Been putting some decent miles on the Bigfoot recently. Yesterday we tried a trail we've avoided for a while due to poor trail conditions. Guadalasco is a single track trail with 9 switchbacks over a little less than 3 miles of climbing. Number 10 on the left on this map:

    Point Mugu State Park Trail Map and Descriptions

    Over the years we've gone from clearing some of the switchbacks to clearing all of them, depending on the trail conditions. Gave it another shot yesterday and there's been a lot of nice trailwork done. We cleared all the switches, though not without some effort. Our bike ran great; we haven't had any issues with anything since dealing with the rear hub earlier this year.

    Summer maintenance is almost here. Going to need to look at the fork at some point, brake pads are getting a bit thin, etc.

  18. #393
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    The ECDM thread

    I haven't re-read the entire thread, but I'm interested in thoughts on other rear shocks for the ECDM. We are not a light team, and the Fox RP23 has never been very good for us. Wondering about a coil spring, or maybe a shock from Cane Creek. Any one with experiences re rear shocks out there?
    --Reamer

    SC Tallboy LTc
    Ventana ECDM 26
    ventana el Ciclon
    Litespeed Classic
    Seven Ti Axion Tandem
    1989 Stumpjumper

  19. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by reamer41 View Post
    I haven't re-read the entire thread, but I'm interested in thoughts on other rear shocks for the ECDM. We are not a light team, and the Fox RP23 has never been very good for us. Wondering about a coil spring, or maybe a shock from Cane Creek. Any one with experiences re rear shocks out there?
    Our Fox RP23 saw a few miles before I had to go inside it and revalve the rebound damping. It was never very good in my testing and opinion. We can ride it but there is better.

    I have not used a Cane Creek on the ECDM. I know the technology but again have not tested one.

    During AORTA #1 I had a moment to talk with Sherwood regarding how he designed the rear suspension linkage location points and leverage ratio. He advised that the frames were designed to be airsprung.

    Going forward, during AORTA#1 we did not own either an ECDM or Fandango. About two months later we had our Ventana and shortly after that got the Fandango together.

    As mention, early rides on the ECDM had the rebound adjuster fully closed, so I revalved the rear shock. The revalve made the shock far better but in the end, the RP23 sits in the spares box.

    My rear shock of choice is the early series of the DHX 5.0 with the round Pro Pedal knob and not the lever.

    The DHX 5.0 must run the small air sleeve or somehow reduce the air volume. With the knob style Pro pedal we have more of a compression adjuster rather than a lockout. There are many more clicks to chose from. For us, we never rode the RP locked out, and with the DHX 5.0, the stoker can make an on the fly setting changes when needed. Climbing for us, without a lockout has never been a problem and in my opinion allows the wheel to follow loose terrain better.

    Also, with the stoker easily adjusting the rear compression, it allows for me to adjust front fork compression on the fly, then she can adjust rear compression (sometimes based on settings I ask for) and within a few minutes, the suspension is dialed in for location and dirt we ride that day.

    FWIW, seldom is the rebound adjuster moved after a good setting is reached. Most adjustments are compression related and deal with square edge bumps or rolling type terrain. Both are easily handled by the old style DHX 5.0.

    As you look, consider FOX has a serious marketing team. Often they come up with new names of the same thing. Or make a minor change and call it something new.

    FWIW, you are best to look into rear shocks with a piggyback style rezzy. This style better controls pressure applied to move the rezzy piston. Non Rezzy shocks have a difficult time on big hits or large shock shaft movements and are prone to cavitate. Also, the non rezzy shocks are super critical to gas pressure to prevent cavitation, require 400 PSI vs the rezzy style which needs 150 PSI. This reduces harshness on small bumps, but has adjustable pressure to help control bottoming.

    All the best with your search.

    PK
    Reps! We don't need no stickin' reps!

  20. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by reamer41 View Post
    I haven't re-read the entire thread, but I'm interested in thoughts on other rear shocks for the ECDM. We are not a light team, and the Fox RP23 has never been very good for us. Wondering about a coil spring, or maybe a shock from Cane Creek. Any one with experiences re rear shocks out there?
    I like Cane Creek's DBInline Air. I had them build me one with ECDM dimensions, as I think it's a great platform for fine-tuning the ride. The Fox is good if you spend some time getting it set up; not sure if the CC will be noticeably better or not.
    MTB Tandems Inc.
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    www.MTBTandems.com

  21. #396
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    The ECDM thread

    Paul, Alex, thanks for your comments!

    I've spent a lot of time with the Fox, including a revalve & rebuild by Push. Didn't seem really any better. I'm not comfortable trying to revalve the shock as its way above my level of expertise.

    I may try a DB inline on my solo bike, a Santa Cruz Tallboy LT, and if that works well look for one for the ECDM or the CC DB Air.
    --Reamer

    SC Tallboy LTc
    Ventana ECDM 26
    ventana el Ciclon
    Litespeed Classic
    Seven Ti Axion Tandem
    1989 Stumpjumper

  22. #397
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    Our new to us ECDM

    2002ish ECDM, new enough to have disc tabs, old enough to also have v-brake posts.
    Fork: 2012 Rock SHox Totem with 40% sag
    Components: grab bag from this decade and the last. New saint brakes, and an 8speed xtr drivetrain (with a huge big ring on the triple).

    We ride our ECDM on just about everything. After taking our first tandem (KHS) down some singletrack she was hooked on technical singletrack and I'm more than happy to oblige. She's even willing to risk a crash when we try stuff I'm not 100% sure about (no hard crashes yet though). We ride it both days every weekend and the tires on my old single bikes are starting to have much longer lifespans.

    No real issues with the bike yet. We bent the lowest gear on the cog from putting out too much torque on a steep switchback, and sometimes I feel more lateral flex in the bike than I would prefer but I assume that's normal with tandems.

    This has got to be the funnest bikes I've ridden in years. Every time we take it out (about three months now) it puts a smile on my face as I can't believe the bike is capable of getting through some of the trails we take it on. The shared enjoyment and team effort of the tandem has also done nothing but made me enjoy and appreciate my SO more than ever. The ECDM thread-img_0601.jpgThe ECDM thread-img_0613.jpg

  23. #398
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    Welcome and congrats on the bike and the enjoyment. I think everyone else here agrees with what you two have discovered

    Ventana tandem frames aren't typically regarded as being flexy. I have a Burley steel road tandem, and that IS flexy, so I'm familiar with the sensations. Could have more to do with suspension settings, among other things. I had a (brief?) problem with our rear shock on one ride that made the bike feel VERY squirrly at the back, borderline unrideable.

  24. #399
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    The ECDM thread

    I tried my 7.8$5 x 2.25" shock in the ECDM the other day. There was seat stay to seat tube contact at or near full compression of the shock. This was with the 2.5:1 rockers. I haven't been able to dig the original rockers out of storage yet.

    A surprise. When taking the stock shock off I fount The top shock mount hardware was broken in 2, and the mounting bolt was substantially bent. Thankfully I had a donor-bike I could borrow from... I'll post a picture of the broken parts.
    --Reamer

    SC Tallboy LTc
    Ventana ECDM 26
    ventana el Ciclon
    Litespeed Classic
    Seven Ti Axion Tandem
    1989 Stumpjumper

  25. #400
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    The ECDM thread

    --Reamer

    SC Tallboy LTc
    Ventana ECDM 26
    ventana el Ciclon
    Litespeed Classic
    Seven Ti Axion Tandem
    1989 Stumpjumper

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