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Thread: 2X10 on tandem

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    2X10 on tandem

    I was considering running a SRAM 2X10 on my Venatana El Testigo, my only concerns are running the 11-36 cassette. I would be using the SRAM PG 1050 11-36 cassette because it uses a steel 36t cog instead on an aluminum one. Has anyone tried or is using this setup?

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    May the air be filled with tires!

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    PMK went 2x10 or 2x9 on his Fandango. Mixed results at best. I think you can find the details in the Fandango thread here on MTBR.
    Also, riveted cassettes won't hold up under most tandem teams. I don't see the newer 36T cassettes beting any stronger than the 34's and 32's that get folded regularly, and in fact they're probably not even as strong, given the larger diameter of the cog.
    If/when they come out with a lower level solid cog cassette for 2x10, it may be a better option. There is such a cassette for 2x9, made by Shimano. We use that one regularly. But most teams end up needing the lowest of the low gears on a triple setup, and I don't think 2x10 or 2x9 actually replicates that gear.
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    Alex, what is your suggestion for rear cassette choice with a CK rear hub? Seems the choice is between solid-cog cassettes and the resulting groove damage to the freehub, or XT/rivited cassettes and their susceptibility to tandem abuse.

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    PMK
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    We did a 2x9 all right side drive.

    The 2x9 is not the problem, the all right side drive gave focus.

    Our setup was awesome or horrible, there was no middle ground.

    Realizing what I believe are benefits of 2x9, I kept 2x9 final drive but did install different cranks making the timing setup on the left side.

    In my opinion, 2x9 with a shimano SLX 2x9 specific front mech easily out shifts any 3x9 setup for front shifts.

    2x9 is likely how our Fandango will remain.

    PK

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    I thought the strength problem was in the hub pawls moreso than the cog itself(?)

    ...that the added leverage (torque) of a 36T cog is too stressful for a standard hub body even on a single, esp. a 29er.

    ...although I don't see where a single with any size cog can have more stress on a hub than a tandem in even a higher gear.

    But yeah, you'd need a strong cog.

    -F

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    We currently run an SRAM X7 level 9 spd11-34 cassette, which has solid cogs ( not riveted) and had not problems. On a earlier tandem build we did have problems with an XTR 11-32 cassette.
    I was planning on using the SRAM PG 1050 11-36 cassette which is a lower level cassette which I feel will be better that the XX or XO grade at least on a tandem.
    The El Testigo will now be set up with my 8 year old son as the stoker, so I dont think we will, as a team, produce any outrageuos torque. My next ponderence will be which chainrings to use.

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    Just checking

    I just wanted to see how many cassettes have actually been folded/destroyed lately. I remember when we were just starting out (1999) there were numerous reports of failures. What has actually failed since 2005? I haven't really heard about many (if any). Alex, you would probably hear more than most - what's up? Is this still a current issue, or a spectre from the past?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    Alex, what is your suggestion for rear cassette choice with a CK rear hub? Seems the choice is between solid-cog cassettes and the resulting groove damage to the freehub, or XT/rivited cassettes and their susceptibility to tandem abuse.
    On a CK hub, use the stainless steel cassette body (if you can get them; they're almost always on backorder). The solid cog cassettes will notch the steel body some, but that's fairly easy to overcome when dismantling the drivetrain. The alloy cassette body will gouge significantly with solid cogs. CK tells me that a true (warrantee-able) tandem hub spec would include both the HD axle and the SS cassette body, so maybe there is a difference in strength as well.
    I'm a SRAM fan, but an examination of the SRAM PG950 and 970 cassettes shows that the cogs themselves appear to be thinner at the cassette body than the cogs on the Shimano HG61 12-36 cassette. So the Shimano may produce less gouging on the steel body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trails4Two
    I just wanted to see how many cassettes have actually been folded/destroyed lately. I remember when we were just starting out (1999) there were numerous reports of failures. What has actually failed since 2005? I haven't really heard about many (if any). Alex, you would probably hear more than most - what's up? Is this still a current issue, or a spectre from the past?
    It still happens on occasion, but not on tandems we build because we won't use the riveted cassettes. I have had customers tell me they have had the same problem when using a riveted cassette sometimes when they's what they originally put on their tandem.
    I have also had some local buys break or fold a riveted cassette on singles lately, so that doesn't bode well for them being any stronger than they were. The larger diameter of the 36T cog would also seem to put more stresses on the cassette body as well.
    I suspect it doesn't happen as much now on tandems because most folks who ask are usually referred to the conventional wisdom/internet lore that they should use a solid body cassette. Also, remember that back in the early days, the riveted cassettes were the ones with the lowest gearing, so folks naturally wanted to use them more.
    I have a solid body cassette here that a local team destroyed as well, so it proves nothing is bulletproof.
    Then again, if anyone's willing, maybe it's time for a re-test....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    I was considering running a SRAM 2X10 on my Venatana El Testigo, my only concerns are running the 11-36 cassette. I would be using the SRAM PG 1050 11-36 cassette because it uses a steel 36t cog instead on an aluminum one. Has anyone tried or is using this setup?
    I completely missed the PG1050 reference. You're correct in your spec and assumptions. On a 26" wheeled tandem, I don't think you'll have any problems. Sorry for the mis-read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemNut
    On a CK hub, use the stainless steel cassette body (if you can get them; they're almost always on backorder). The solid cog cassettes will notch the steel body some, but that's fairly easy to overcome when dismantling the drivetrain.
    We bought our CK wheelset from you, and we have the stainless body (and FunBolts, if that makes us have the HD axle as well). ~6 rides on the LX cassette grooved the body enough it was sticky pulling the cassette. Switched to an XT (rivited) cassette and have not yet had any issues with it (~10 rides, similar to the 6 above). Would rather fold and replace a cassette than damage the freehub body too much (especially with the added difficulty of availability).

    We regularly impoded WI hubs, so I'd figure the cassette would be the next weakest link. So far, so good. --> knock on wood

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okayfine
    We bought our CK wheelset from you, and we have the stainless body (and FunBolts, if that makes us have the HD axle as well). ~6 rides on the LX cassette grooved the body enough it was sticky pulling the cassette. Switched to an XT (rivited) cassette and have not yet had any issues with it (~10 rides, similar to the 6 above). Would rather fold and replace a cassette than damage the freehub body too much (especially with the added difficulty of availability).

    We regularly impoded WI hubs, so I'd figure the cassette would be the next weakest link. So far, so good. --> knock on wood
    Ultimately, if the manufacturers have strengthened the riveted cassettes enough for tandem use, we'll only know by folks like you doing the real-world field testing. They're certainly lighter than solid cog version.
    Let us know how it works out long-term. Are you riding any differently because it's a riveted cassette?
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    PMK
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    FWIW, we have folded Two I believe riveted cassettes since last fall July. I also remember tweaking a solid cassette back during that time frame also.

    Our DT 440 hub on the ECDM had an aluminum freehub body...now steel.

    In regards to grooving a freehub body or folding the cassette, losing the gears and possibly slamming some ghost shifts vs difficulty of cassette removal plus the hassle of replacement, I prefer to ride home with no mechanical failures. We folded one miles from a trailhead and aligned it pretty good so we only had lost second gear instead of 1 thru 4, but still babied home.

    Neither is a good choice.

    I had considered machining small spacers and considered making a spyder style better supported, unfortunately there is not enough excess material.

    PK

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    Everything is a compromise. We could get new White Industries parts delivered before the next weekend's riding came, but 6 months on the nose we'd need to do it again. So we switched to the CK wheelset, since I haven't found a mention of a tandem team busting a CK hub. With that, we had a 2+ month lead time for CK to make all the required bits, one of which is the stainless freehub body. So, facing a likely 2+ month downtime if we needed a new body (nevermind the cost), I switched to rivited cassettes. We ran the LX stuff on the WI hubs and I was always able to remove them without issue, if with grooving. Two months with the LX on the CK hub and it almost didn't come off by hand.

    We haven't changed our riding style, and as evidenced by Saturday's ride, I haven't improved my shifting all that much. To date we're still good. I have a spare SRAM 990 in case, so I'll be (potentially) able to report on both. But I doubt my bits are different from Paul's and he's crushed two recent ones, so...

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    Still...anyone have experience with 2x10 on your tandem? we can get into the broken hub/ folded cassette in another post.

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    2x10 success (so far)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    Still...anyone have experience with 2x10 on your tandem? we can get into the broken hub/ folded cassette in another post.
    Yes. Although I would say that we have not put enough miles to make it a good test.

    We only have about 300 miles on 2x10 on our new Fandango 29 since getting it around the 1st of the year. I'll have to get the cassette model number, but I believe it is 11-36 XT version.

    For context, we are a lightish team (270 lbs). We do quite a bit of climbing living in Colorado at the base of the Rocky Mountains.

    Without getting into the whole folding cassette topic, we had aprox 4000 miles on 3x9 setup on our 26" Ventana ECDM with riveted cassettes and never folded one. We did manage to get 3 or 4 hubs to spin freely in both directions... I don't know if that means that we are not powerfull enough to fold a cassette, or that the shifting is smooth, but that is for another topic alltogether (which may be worth starting for anyone who is more informed than I).

    Happy to answer any questions on the 2x10 setup if you have them.

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    Running CK with stainless steel shell. When running Individual cogs early on they did notch the fairly soft stainless alloy/heat treat used by King. Wish they would change that. Latest failure below. No notching with the carrier but ear breakage is not good. Now trying the 12-36 with individual cogs to see how that holds up. At least no carrier to fail.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2X10 on tandem-img_3803_1.jpg  

    Last edited by Stevoo; 04-05-2011 at 01:11 PM.

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    I too, have folded both Shimano XT and XTR 9spd cassettes when my wife and I rode and raced both our ECDM and later our El Testigo's. I have since switched to SRAM X7 level 11-34 cassettes have not folded one. I will like to go 2x10 using SRAM XO shifters and rear der. and SRAM PG 1050 11-36 cassette. I weigh 180lbs and am a strong expert class racer and my son is 8 years old and 60 lbs, we should not have any problems. We will be on our newest (2004) model Ventana El Testigo. Im thinking about running the timing chain on the right side since finding 155mm cranks will not be easy to come by.
    I will have to make the rear suspension a bit softer to accomadate my sons weight

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    PMK
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    I have spoken with the SRAM rep about 2x10 and 2x10 all right side drive. This was in regards to our Co-Mo road tandem.

    Jamie the rep is local for me, and knows I am willing to tinker / modify to make stuff work. Ultimately we are both of the opinion at the current time the front shifts will be marginal at best, similar to our right side drive 2x9.

    Hope it is an easy mod for you. I still am committed to resolving the right side drive issue, but have backed off for now.

    PK

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    The crank that intrigues me for a right side drivetrain is the Surly Mr. Whirly. Has many spider options and BB spindle options. Someone (with a lot more skills than me) could make a spider with proper spacing to get all the rings on one side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    I have spoken with the SRAM rep about 2x10 and 2x10 all right side drive. This was in regards to our Co-Mo road tandem.

    Jamie the rep is local for me, and knows I am willing to tinker / modify to make stuff work. Ultimately we are both of the opinion at the current time the front shifts will be marginal at best, similar to our right side drive 2x9.

    Hope it is an easy mod for you. I still am committed to resolving the right side drive issue, but have backed off for now.

    PK
    Based on our still limited experience, I will say that the 2x10 Sram set up that we are running shifts extremely well. I did recently experience the issue that PMK ran into with the shift from the granny gear to the 36t chainring over shifting and getting caught on the timing chain. But I came to find out that when I had the bike in the shop the day prior, they did some cable adjustments. I made a minor tweak to the outer limit screw and we're back to shifting that rivals any standard set up.

    I have been hesitant to post my positive experience with the 2x10 for fears that I will run into the same issues that PMK had with his very similar 2x9 set up. But since the topic came up, I thought I'd chime in. By mid June we'll have a couple of races under our belt and many more miles so I can give a better review based on a lot more experience.

    Here are outstanding questions that I still have on our set up:

    1. Will I run into the same problem of overshifting into the timing chain and if so, can it be permanently resolved by the front deraileur limits or a larger shim on the timing rings?

    2. Will the 10sp chain wear or break pre-maturely?

    3. Will the 11-36 cassette be problematic? i.e. folding cogs or failure with rivets?

    4. Will I miss the big ring in a situation where the trail is straight and has a minor downhill grade?

    Just my .02 cents for now. I will post further experience as we put this thing through a few long days on the trail (to date we only have about 330 miles with 36,000 ft of climbing).

  23. #23
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    Based on our still limited experience, I will say that the 2x10 Sram set up that we are running shifts extremely well. I did recently experience the issue that PMK ran into with the shift from the granny gear to the 36t chainring over shifting and getting caught on the timing chain. But I came to find out that when I had the bike in the shop the day prior, they did some cable adjustments. I made a minor tweak to the outer limit screw and we're back to shifting that rivals any standard set up.
    Agree, when our setup worked it worked really well, when it didn't it was really bad. The front derailiuer for us is a 2x9 specific STX. It shifted very well, good enough that I have no immediate intentions to go 3x. The der settings were critical, I set it just enough to get the shift up, and not rub in the 11. If I coaxed the shift with less than a full twist it worked without problems. For us, many of the places we ride have very abrupt elevation transitions. This required sometimes more front shifts than rears. (Descend in Big/4, immediate climb in Small/4).

    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    I have been hesitant to post my positive experience with the 2x10 for fears that I will run into the same issues that PMK had with his very similar 2x9 set up. But since the topic came up, I thought I'd chime in. By mid June we'll have a couple of races under our belt and many more miles so I can give a better review based on a lot more experience.
    We did miles and miles of testing and setup. It always seemed at the most inopportune time it had troubles. The distance race last fall, at mile 169 of 171 it jumped and locked up. This was in some of the easier terrain. San Felasco, nice rolling easy stuff gave it fits. Rides in slop and the rain, deep sand and dust, no problem. No pattern for the failures could be determined.

    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    Here are outstanding questions that I still have on our set up:

    1. Will I run into the same problem of overshifting into the timing chain and if so, can it be permanently resolved by the front deraileur limits or a larger shim on the timing rings?
    For us, all this was tried. The answer was no. Ironically the worst performing front big ring, an 8 speed Surly SS ground thinner was our non problem but worst shifting. I believe the longer shifts did not let the chain leap onto the big ring.

    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    2. Will the 10sp chain wear or break pre-maturely?
    Don't know

    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    3. Will the 11-36 cassette be problematic? i.e. folding cogs or failure with rivets?
    Don't know

    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    4. Will I miss the big ring in a situation where the trail is straight and has a minor downhill grade?
    Maybe, but honestly our terminal velocity on this bike seems to be 30 mph max, the xc handling and setup, along with the hardtail make this a workable never exceed speed. Then again, speed is relative. I'm sure much faster is doable, I'd prefer to be a bit less over the bars though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ds2199
    Just my .02 cents for now. I will post further experience as we put this thing through a few long days on the trail (to date we only have about 330 miles with 36,000 ft of climbing).
    I never installed a computer on this bike. Most of the rides have been longer distances. Climbing is as encountered.

    PK

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