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Thread: surly ogre

  1. #851
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    Looking good there Hunter007. We were talking bottles and BBB XL Fuel Tanks I think in the Ogre Build thread. Using the stainless Gilles Berthoud 60mm fenders it looks like I've gotten away with the Nalgeen 1.5 liter bottle on the underside of the downtube.
    I had to remove the clip for the wide mouth bottles but when fill with water they appear to be fine and a couple of rides have failed to make them shake loose.
    I'm thinking of adding some pedal straps for added security on rough roads.

    surly ogre-dsc_7087.jpg

    surly ogre-dsc_7085.jpg

    surly ogre-dsc_7086.jpg

  2. #852
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    I had clearance on the bottles without actually doing anything, but what I found was the fork flexing enough that the fenders would snag on the XL cage under moderate to heavy braking. Your photos were very helpful FWIW, and I probably wouldn't have bought the XL cage without your feedback. Thanks for that!

  3. #853
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    Does anyone have an 18" or 20" Ogre where the saddle height is 74cm above the center of the bottom bracket? I'm interested in switching to the Ogre for the longer wheelbase, ability to take really fat tires and the flexibilty to run rim or disc brakes but I'm concerned about how much seatpost will be showing. Part is aesthetics and part is safety since I weigh 400 lbs.

    Thanks!

  4. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter006 View Post
    I had clearance on the bottles without actually doing anything, but what I found was the fork flexing enough that the fenders would snag on the XL cage under moderate to heavy braking. Your photos were very helpful FWIW, and I probably wouldn't have bought the XL cage without your feedback. Thanks for that!
    Good to know about the fork flex as I've not done any heavy braking with the fender on.
    I only did a mock up and rode round the block to see if there was any foot-strike issues.
    I see flex is something I'll have to explore as I don't want to dent my new fenders.
    I've only just realised my bottle cage on the seat-tube is no good as the bottom of the bottle is sitting on the down tube and will abrade the paint if left to its own devices.

  5. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    the bottom of the bottle is sitting on the down tube and will abrade the paint if left to its own devices.
    You could try taping it. Still, I have given up on the paint job on the Ogre. I send it through harsh conditions; any paint stripped is a sign of love.

  6. #856
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    Finished my build today

    I built up my 20" Ogre today. I have two different wheel sets ... one road set and one with Big Apples for the potholes in Peoria and for riding converted rail trails and dirt roads. Won't be using the bike for single track ... have a Niner MCR for that.

    I know this build looks odd with the big spacer stack ... but that and an 80mm stem work for me ... and get me into a more upright and comfortable position.

    I did 20 miles on the skinny tires today ... the bike is rock solid and handles really well. Couldn't be happier. I have a rear rack, another bottle cage, and a frame pump to add.

    Components ... Road BB7's, Red Chris King headset, Tiagra Brifters with the left is just used for the brake because the bike is set up as a 1x9. Deore Longcage in the rear ... thompson set back seatpost, FSA Wing bars with a shallow drop, race face crank with a 34t ring. Wheel sets ... one with Hope pro hubs and Stan's Flow rims (used with tubes) ... and one with deore hubs and WTB rims. Skinny tires are schwalbe marathon racers 35c and the fatties are big apple lite skins 2.35


    surly ogre-9279053163_6e82269785_o.jpg

    surly ogre-9281824812_61fe6aaafd_b.jpg

  7. #857
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    There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    After reading through this and other threads on the Ogre and Troll, I pulled the trigger and got one of my own. I had a shop build it up for me as it's been years since I did any riding and building.

    Thanks to all those who post, it helped build the mania and push me over the edge.

    surly ogre-myogre_lg.jpg

    My Ogre, 24" XXL with drops

    Deore XT full triple drivetrain 180mm and XT BB
    XT Hubs, DT rims, 23mm 36h
    Avid BB7 mountains
    Specialized Phenom saddle 155
    Surly nice rack
    Schwalbe Mondial in 700x40
    Shimano Bar end shifters
    Dimension drops
    Cane Creek stem and levers
    45NRTH platforms
    Shimano clipless MTB pedals (shoes aren't here yet)

    Other gear info

    Specialized Max XL Universal helmet fits my 62mm head perfectly where a POC didn't

    Pearl Izumi MTB shorts fit me well at my height too

    I'm 6'5" with a 37" measured bike inseam and about a 38 shirt sleeve, this bike really feels nice, best fit of anything I've owned easily.

  8. #858
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    More fit tweaks, and riding is getting easier

    Did some fit tweaks today, got the saddle a lot better than it was, dropped the bars a spacer, rotated them back for the hoods to feel better. Step by step the miles are getting easier.

    Amazing how small changes (haven't ridden in 25yrs) make huge comfort differences.

    That's a Kriega R5 bag on the back that I had for a motorcycle and it's proving to be a great day ride, general use bag. It's a roll-top dry bag and also has a tough mesh outer pocket so it's handy as hell for wallet, tools, tubes etc.

    surly ogre-ogre_park_mup.jpg

  9. #859
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    Lovin all the drop bar black Ogres coming out of the woodwork.
    MickLD and Kingsqueak, you've done yourselves proud.
    Both a nice job.
    Happy Spinning

  10. #860
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    Ogre w/ suspension

    I have been running my ogre in rigid bikepack mode--but I just started graduate school, and won't have much time for overnighters. My solution was to turn the thing into a singlespeed hardtail. It's the swiss army knife of bicycles.

    surly ogre-ogre_ss.jpg

    Salsa Pro Moto 1 stem/bar/seatpost, i23/gordo rims, phenom saddle, reba, shimano hydro disc brake, race face turbine cranks, blackspire 32t ring, surly 20t cog, tuggnut, cane creek 40, revelate tangle, esi chunky, wtb wolverine+bronson (some maxxis rubber coming soon)

    I love this thing.

  11. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laura669 View Post
    I can't imagine it not being suspension corrected, aren't all their mountain bikes suspension corrected now?
    "Ogre comes with our suspension-corrected (80mm) fork."

    Ogre | Bikes | Surly Bikes

  12. #862
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    What is the largest size chainring that fits on the Ogre? Does it have clearance for 50T and above?

  13. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post
    What is the largest size chainring that fits on the Ogre? Does it have clearance for 50T and above?
    I'm not sure on this, but why so big?

  14. #864
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    Coz I don't wanna peddle like a little hamster when I go 30 mph

  15. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post
    Coz I don't wanna peddle like a little hamster when I go 30 mph
    30mph = 31,680 in/min
    1 pedal rotation = 29" x 3.14 = 91 in

    Therefore your cadence with a 48-11 (4.36:1) gear:
    1 pedal rotation = 4.36 * 91 in = 397 inches
    Pedal rotations per minute = 31,680 / 397 = 79 rpm

    That's not hamster speed at all, I'd say you can spin up to 100 rpm before it starts to get a little fast, and you'll be going 38mph then
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/lostboyscout | www.beerscout.ca
    Knolly Chilcotin | Surly Long Haul Trucker

  16. #866
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    Sheldon's gear calculator:
    29x2.0" = 700x50 tires
    44x14 gearing, 44T being a pretty easy to acquire chainring for a XT crankset (4 bolt), 14T being higher than the last gear of any cassette I can think of.

    Gear chart using MPH @ 120 RPM: 32.5 mph

    Max speed on yesterday's ride with a 36x16T Rohloff in 14th gear: 34.7mi/h @ 130 RPM. Pretty achievable.

    According to Surly, the largest chainring it will take is a 46T. There's always fiddle in there though - if you add spacers, you can probably get a 50T on there. Or you could just use a smaller rear cog.

  17. #867
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    ^ I think what he needs is one of those Canfield cassette hubs that will take a 9T cog: Canfield Components 9t Micro Drive Hubs and Cog Conversion Kits , plus maybe a 60t chainring: SE Chain Ring, 38 - 60T, Bolt Center Diameter: 130mm

    60x9 with a 29" wheel gives 52 rpm at 30mph - is that slow enough yet?

    Otherwise there's the Schlumpf High Speed Drive: schlumpf innovations There's a version that will take standard 130 PCD chainrings, so 60+ is possible. If we stick to Surly's recommended maximum of 46T, then with an 11T cog this gives a top gear of ~303" and a cadence at 30mph of 33rpm, or when combined with the Sturmey-Archer CS-RK3 hub: Sturmey Archer, top gear goes up by 33% to 404"(!) and cadence at 30mph is just under 25rpm. (The HSD is also compatible with the Rohloff hub, but even with the smallest 13T cog this "only" gives a top gear of ~377": http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/berechnung...ltung_inch.htm)

    There's probably a way to fit a 9T cog to the S-A hub too - with a bit of machining - or else Shimano used to offer a similar hub and perhaps their Capreo freehub body might fit it...

  18. #868
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    My rohloff Ogre with 34T front ring and 16T rear cog according to Sheldon is 17.3 to 90.8 gear inches.
    Top gear has yet to be used.
    I seriously cant imagine trying to spin it doing anything except for an extreme downward grade and even then it would be a condition I'd probably rather just coast.

  19. #869
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    Thanks. Ideally I'd like to do around 70 rpm @ 30 mph. I will slap an electric hub motor on the bike and would like to be able to peddle comfortably at those speeds, both to save battery/add range and because the ebike law requires pedal assist at all times where I'm based.

    With an electric hub motor, I'm bound to use an 11T cog so with the maximum recommended chainring of 46T, on Big Apples (29 x 2.35"), the cadence for 25-35 mph would be 70-95 rpm, which is a bit higher than I'd like.

    I was considering the Schlumpf HSD but was under the impression it doesn't fit the standard MTB bottom bracket width of 73mm, just the road standard BB width of 68mm - is that correct...?

  20. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post
    Thanks. Ideally I'd like to do around 70 rpm @ 30 mph. I will slap an electric hub motor on the bike and would like to be able to peddle comfortably at those speeds, both to save battery/add range and because the ebike law requires pedal assist at all times where I'm based.

    With an electric hub motor, I'm bound to use an 11T cog so with the maximum recommended chainring of 46T, on Big Apples (29 x 2.35"), the cadence for 25-35 mph would be 70-95 rpm, which is a bit higher than I'd like.

    I was considering the Schlumpf HSD but was under the impression it doesn't fit the standard MTB bottom bracket width of 73mm, just the road standard BB width of 68mm - is that correct...?
    Honestly, here's what I think of the above:
    • I can't tell if you're serious or not. Surly make bikes that are ridden, not propelled, however their ethos with the Ogre is that it can be all it can be, so I'm going to defer to that and assume it is not out of the design specs for an Ogre.
    • EDIT: Surly Bikes are based out of MN, where the maximum eBike speed is 20 mph.
    • When you're building it up, consider putting shorter cranks on, as they'll be easier to spin up.
    • My Surly Ogre MTB frame has some inherent instability due to the geometry and frame flex (develops a wobble that requires rider intervention). This kicks in at higher speeds, like around 30-35 mph depending on how it's loaded.
    • Most 50cc road licensed scooters are restricted to 25 mph so I would consider that a fairly reasonable top speed to obtain.
    • If you're doing 30 mph and are worried about battery life because you're not putting enough push in to the pedals, my opinion is you're doing it wrong. There are three solutions here: 1) pedal harder. 2) Turn down the motor assist and go slower. 3) Add more batteries or batteries with higher capacity. All of these will make your range will go up.


    70 RPM is unusually low RPM. Most people casually pedal 75-90 rpm. Just to confirm, have you measured this with a cadence meter of some sort?

    Regarding calculations, according to Sheldon Brown 100 RPM with 29x2.35" tires @ 46x11: 36.2 mph

    RPM vs. Cadence is linear, so the exact numbers are:
    35 mph - 96 rpm.
    30 mph - 82 rpm (about average RPM for most people).
    25 mph - 69 rpm.

    RE: Schlumpf HSD question: mountain drive
    F.1.9. My bottom bracket shell has a width of 73mm (American standard). Which drive fits?

    For a correct installation the 10mm longer axle is the best solution. Combine it with a +2mm cone ring on the right side and a +4mm cone ring on the left side. The chainline increases by 2mm, which can be corrected by using 2mm-washers between spider and chainring.

    The material of the cone ring is important on the rigth side only, where the reaction torque has to be held. On the left side, we deliver an aluminum cone ring with smooth surfaces together with a 90° grooved nut.

    An alternative is to take the standard version and to use a +6.5mm grooved nut on the left side. Please check, if the left crankarm doesn't interferes with the rear chainstay, because the unit is slightly our of center (by using the +6.5mm spacer).
    Off-set crankarms may help.

    When ordering, please always indicate such special set-ups. This allows us to recommend the best solution!

  21. #871
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    FWIW, gear x cadence / 336 = MPH, or gear x cadence / 209 = km/h

    Also, please note that if you're considering riding at 30mph on an ebike anywhere there are other cyclists or pedestrians (or motorists, who won't expect a bicycle to move so fast) YOU WILL BE A DANGER TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS!!! Please do not do this.

  22. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    FWIW, gear x cadence / 336 = MPH, or gear x cadence / 209 = km/h

    Also, please note that if you're considering riding at 30mph on an ebike anywhere there are other cyclists or pedestrians (or motorists, who won't expect a bicycle to move so fast) YOU WILL BE A DANGER TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS!!! Please do not do this.
    The calculation specified is approximate only; I prefer to use Sheldon Brown's calculator as it takes in to account tire size, which can change calculations by up to 10% (typically that calculation is for 700x25 tires, and holds true within a small margin of error for 700x20-700x32).

    The inherent danger of fast moving vehicles on roadways not designed for it is why it is illegal to run eBikes on the bicycle trails in Washington state, and why they're speed limited to 20 mph. All advice I give comes with the request that it is not used in a way that endangers others or otherwise creates animosity towards cyclists. There's enough of that going around already. If you hurt yourself strapping a JATO rocket to your bike, well, at least have a good video of it.

    Anecdotal information:
    On Wednesday I was descending Fremont Ave in Fremont, Seattle at around 30 mph in the middle of the lane. Exactly as satanas mentions, a car pulled straight in front of the bike lane and stopped there. The Ogre only has 160mm/160mm rotors on it so I wasn't able to pull up in time, even braking as hard as I could. I managed to swerve around the car, but there was no way I could stop in time.

  23. #873
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    Ogre sizing

    Hi All,

    My name is Ghaben, registered from Hungary (EU), just recently. (Though, been reading through the threads on this forum for a while but haven't registered, so far until now.)

    May I ask for some sizing advice with the Ogre as I'm considering to get one (actually a frameset) for my 15 year old son for Xmas to build a bike together for the next season.

    However, I have some concerns about the proper size-selection; partly due to considering potential further growth of my son in the coming years, and partly by knowing his riding habits.

    We live in a hilly (albeit not mountain) area also with lots of flats around, where he rides his bike on a daily level. However, we often go to (loaded) bike tours to Austria (where it is more mountainous there) as well as we tour in Hungary on fully plain lands. The least he rides are technical trails (only very occasionally) and he does not race, either.

    He rides a 20 inch¯ Kona Explosif (2003 model and 26er, not 29er) now, and despite of the relatively large size of the bike, I had to put on a steerer extension to raise the handlebar, because he was too much cramped over the bike without it and had back pains on the longer (50+ miles a day) tours.

    However, this raiser not only looks weird, but also deteriorates handling, so this is the main reason I thought I'd change over to a 29er, because I believe bikes of that size would yield a generally more upright position just by their inherent geometry (or, am I wrong with that?).

    So, knowing my son's riding habits, I'm concerned that if his new (29er) bike is not large enough, he would be too much cramped over it again for the longer tours. I understand that for technical riding a smaller size (naturally yielding a more cramped position) handles better and I also reckon that on a too large bike he might be stretched too much forward (and I would like to avoid this also, especially because he has relatively longer limbs and shorter torso).

    Therefore I'm confused whether to buy an 18" Ogre (which is the 'officially' recommended size for him) or go for a 20" or perhaps even for a 22" for a better upright/touring position?

    My son is 180cm (cca. 5'11) w/inseam of 83+cm (cca. 33") and, as I mentioned, he is still growing (although at a slower pace, already ) and he has relatively longer limbs and shorter torso, accordingly.

    Any advice based on the above info would be much appreciated from all you guys.

    Cheers

    Ghaben

  24. #874
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    Welcome aboard, Ghaben.

    I'm 6' 4" and, like your son, long in the legs and short in the torso. I got the 24" frame to fit my legs, but I've had huge trouble getting the bars close enough for comfort.

    If you Google this question, you'll find that choosing a smaller frame is almost always the most recommended option. A longer seatpost and handlebar stem can bring a frame up to size, but it's very difficult to shorten it.

    As for the rider growing, however, that's a more complicated situation I can't advise on!

  25. #875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghaben View Post
    Hi All,

    My name is Ghaben, registered from Hungary (EU), just recently. (Though, been reading through the threads on this forum for a while but haven't registered, so far until now.)

    May I ask for some sizing advice with the Ogre as I'm considering to get one (actually a frameset) for my 15 year old son for Xmas to build a bike together for the next season.
    Welcome.

    I'm 6'5", 37" (93cm) inseam and ride the XXL 24" frame. By the time I had enough seat post height, I had to add a steerer tube extension (to the already uncut steerer) to get my drop bars up closer to seat level. I'm still puzzling over the bar position as far as stem length. Now that I'm up high enough my 100mm stem *might* not be long enough (the bars are now much closer due to the steerer angle)...still figuring this out.

    I'm a bit on the oddly large size, so you will likely be able to get a better fit, but the thing to point out is that even though I needed to extend the steerer, the top tube is pretty long on these bikes. They are made for flat bars and are on the long side. You didn't mention if you wanted flat or drop bars, but consider this when sizing the bike.

    You should measure the top tube of his bike now from the seat to the stem and compare with the Surly geometry charts on their site for the Ogre.

    The uncut steerer is pretty tall if you are just ordering the frame set and not a complete (they seem to cut them low on the completes), so you may be o.k. with the bar height, but the reach will be the more interesting puzzle to solve I suspect.

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