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Thread: surly ogre

  1. #1051
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    got a rabbit hole with Ardent 2.4 on the rear

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJfromtheSwitch View Post




    got a rabbit hole with Ardent 2.4 on the rear

    can't fit a knard in the rear?
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  3. #1053
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    i wouldn't think so, the 2.4 ardent is pretty tight in there as it is, the rabbit hole really fattens it out.

  4. #1054
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    @steveJfromtheSwitch -le sigh.

    maybe i'll just do some Velocity Dually's?
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  5. #1055
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinymouse View Post
    FWIW, I measured by propping my bike up as straight as I could, then took a measurement on each side of the bike, and averaged the two measurements. I did this twice and was within a mm each time. So, I'm pretty confident that 307 mm is a reasonably accurate answer.

    Could the slick tread of the Big Apples my KM is wearing now have taken a few mm off my BB height, versus the same nominal size knobby tires?
    most definitely!

    The best I can find from Schwalbe's website is "approx" circumference of 2330mm for 28" 60-622 tires...
    Tire Dimensions | Schwalbe North America

    By those numbers we get...
    302mm/11.9" Karate Monkey w/Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35 (14.6 - 2.7)

    2330 / 3.14 = 742mm diameter
    742 / 2 = 371mm radius
    371 - 69 = 302mm

    The Ardent 2.4 is HUGE and is certainly going to raise you're BB.
    Last edited by ECR; 11-30-2013 at 09:50 AM.

  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    The BB heights reported by other folks for Surly bikes is a bit lower than calculated. So that leads me to believe the charts are off a tad.
    You're comparing Apples to Oranges and Ardents. The Ardent 2.4 comes stock on the Karate Monkey, but these folks are running the Big Apple 2.35 and that is going to lower their BB.

    12.15 Karate Monkey w/Maxxis Ardent 2.4 (14.85 - 2.7)
    11.90 Karate Monkey w/Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35 (14.6 - 2.7)

    Don't remember where I got specs for the Ardent, but specs on Big Apple are from Schwalbe. If Ardents are any shorter, that would put the BB on a stock Karate Monkey lower than the ECR...oh no's!

  7. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECR View Post
    There's a couple out there

    BB Height Comparrisons w/stock tires:
    12.85 Krampus w/Knard 3.0 (15.25 - 2.4)
    12.55 Instigator w/Dirt Wizard 2.75 (13.75 - 1.2)
    12.15 ECR w/Knard 3.0 (15.25 - 3.1)
    12.15 Karate Monkey w/Maxxis Ardent 2.4 (14.85 - 2.7)
    12.00 Ogre w/WTB Nano Comp 2.1 (14.70 - 2.7)
    I measured the BB heights of a stock KM and stock Ogre that was sitting at my LBS as well as a stock Krampus.

    Ogre = 11.6"
    KM = 11.6"
    Krampus = 12.6"

    My Krampus measured 12.5" so that's close enough to be the same and we can chalk that up to tire wear/ variance in rubber size plus measurement error.
    Safe riding,

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  8. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I measured the BB heights of a stock KM and stock Ogre that was sitting at my LBS as well as a stock Krampus.

    Ogre = 11.6"
    KM = 11.6"
    Krampus = 12.6"
    Folks here are saying they get 12" with the Big Apple, therefore you are telling us the Big Apple is nearly an inch taller than the Ardent 2.4. I hope you are right because I would like to try Super Motos this summer and they are comparable.

  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECR View Post
    Folks here are saying they get 12" with the Big Apple, therefore you are telling us the Big Apple is nearly an inch taller than the Ardent 2.4. I hope you are right because I would like to try Super Motos this summer and they are comparable.
    I'm collecting real world data to see if this spec chart e-speculation adds up. I'm going to keep measuring bikes as they cross my path and see what's what.

    A bunch of Santa Cruz Tallboy LT owners on MTBR were a little shocked that their 135mm travel bikes turned out to be 125mm travel bikes after one owner took the trouble to measure and then others did as well to compare.

    Theory is great. Confirmation in the real world is better.

    Folks measuring Surly fat tires on MTBR have come across quite a variation in sizes and weights.

    However, I'm not pointing to any one cause I'm just trying to establish what the BB heights actually are on stock bikes.

    If you want to know how tall some BA 2.35" tires are I suggest measuring them instead of calculating backwards from some other value.

    You know what they say about assumptions...
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  10. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    You know what they say about assumptions...
    So you're saying Surly, Maxxis and a Schwalbe "assume" the circumference or diameter of their tires.

  11. #1061
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECR View Post
    So you're saying Surly, Maxxis and a Schwalbe "assume" the circumference or diameter of their tires.
    Every specification in a design has a range of values based on the materials used and fabrication techniques. That's if nothing unplanned happens during fabrication to add even more variance.

    Tires in particular have a wide variance from one sample to another.

    What I am saying is that spending too much time noodling over spec charts isn't as productive in understanding what's really going on as measuring the value in question on a production sample and/or riding the bike.

    Surly, Maxxis and Schwalbe know that the number for any tire spec they publish is not actually going to result in tires on bikes with that precise spec. Hopefully it is a representative value of say the average width, but we all know of tire brands where most of their tires measure wider or narrower than the published width. Folks in the fatbike forum measuring various samples of the same Surly tire came up with weights that differed by over 150g from tire to tire.

    Internally the tire companies have a range of tolerance values for all the specs they are trying to build their tires to. Regardless they might still produce out of spec tires and may still decide to sell them.

    So personally I would treat tire widths, heights and weights as suspect until I measured them and if you really want to get a handle on the variance range you need to measure a bunch of them not just one.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  12. #1062
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    Well, to be fare with Schwalbe, their "approx" numbers calculated out to within 0.1" of what folks here are seeing with their Big Apples. I find it hard to believe Maxxis and Surly number are so far off, but hopefully I will get a chance to measure them myself next week

  13. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJfromtheSwitch View Post
    i wouldn't think so, the 2.4 ardent is pretty tight in there as it is, the rabbit hole really fattens it out.

    so you have a krampus ogre and karate monkey?
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  14. #1064
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    I put the knobbies back on the KM. Ardent 2.25 up front 20 psi, WTB 2.35 out back 25psi.
    11.75 BB height

  15. #1065
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    I saw a few pages back where someone put a Surly rear Nice Rack on the front of their Ogre.

    I know racks that hold weight usually go on the back- is it a bad idea to put one on the front and have the back unladen?

    I'm about to start using my Ogre for work commuting, 17 miles one way, and I'm pondering getting a garment bag for it that would just be holding work clothes and shoes and various needed items. So it won't be massively weighted down.
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  16. #1066
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    I used a garment bag for a while and it worked fine on the rear nice rack. I never tried it on the front, and never considered it. I have the TransIt bag, which is 18" wide. Seems like it would stick way out in front of the bike.

    I since got a new job where I got a locker and has more casual dress, so I stopped using it. PM me if you you are interested in a gently used one.

  17. #1067
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    I prefer the way the Ogre handles with a few extra pounds on the front since I have mine setup a little more 'upright' than average, but steering gets pretty slow if you get much past about ten pounds.

    The rear is always good for loads of weight with decent handling... and more wheel truing.

  18. #1068
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    ...back on topic. My current bullet-proof build for all occasions, mostly commuting. Finest bicycle I have ever owned.
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  19. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJfromtheSwitch View Post
    i wouldn't think so, the 2.4 ardent is pretty tight in there as it is, the rabbit hole really fattens it out.
    Nice Ride! Do you think there is a sus fork that would fit the RH/Ardent combo?

  20. #1070
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    Does anyone know if 2.3 Big Apples will fit under full fenders like the Planet Bike Cascadia? I don't think SKS makes wide enough 700c fenders.

    It says fits up to 2.3" tires but not all 2.3's are the same and I'm not sure about rim width or clearance down by the BB. Even with monkeynuts my tire is like veeeery close to my FD.

    Plus, I'm planning on going to wider rims soon. If I can't fit the Big Apple it's ok, I can always get a smaller tire, but it's what I have now.
    '15 Specialized Fatboy
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  21. #1071
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    They do. I have Big Apples 2.0's under those Cascadias and the tires look too small under them. The 29'er Cascadias are actually wider than the 26'er version, and I barely fit Maxxis Hookworms 2.5" under the 26'er Cascadias. This is all on 33mm wide MTX rims. There's even more room under the wider Ogre 29'er Cascadias, and I'm planning on some Schwalbe Moto for the Ogre. They say they'll work with 2.3 tires and they aren't lying.

    The 29'er Cascadia's on my Ogre measure 64.5mm wide. The 26'er Cascadias on my Troll measure exactly 60mm wide. Hope that helps.

  22. #1072
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    Awesome, thank you!
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  23. #1073
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    Does anyone know if 2.3 Big Apples will fit under full fenders like the Planet Bike Cascadia? I don't think SKS makes wide enough 700c fenders.

    It says fits up to 2.3" tires but not all 2.3's are the same and I'm not sure about rim width or clearance down by the BB. Even with monkeynuts my tire is like veeeery close to my FD.

    Plus, I'm planning on going to wider rims soon. If I can't fit the Big Apple it's ok, I can always get a smaller tire, but it's what I have now.
    Absoultely. I ran this exact setup on my Ogre. I was running IGH so no front derailleur.

  24. #1074
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    I got the Cascadia fenders at my LBS today, and they will clear the tire all the way round- the problem is the front derailleur is very much in the way of where the fender mounts to the chainstay bridge.

    I suppose I could get very creative with a dremel? I'm not sure what else to do, are there different style derailleurs that would mount to an Ogre?
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  25. #1075
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    A low mount front derailer should provide you with JUST enough clearance for fenders.

  26. #1076
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    Oooh, wait, think I found the answer:
    Ogre, Fenders and You | Blog | Surly Bikes
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  27. #1077
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    Oooh, wait, think I found the answer:
    Ogre, Fenders and You | Blog | Surly Bikes
    About that blog post: why is it that when using monkey nuts you need to install them on both sides, whereas when using the tug nut you need it only on one side?

    That is, why aren't tug nuts required on both sides also?

  28. #1078
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    I remember it being something like the pedaling torque is only on the one side. In any event, I'll put two on, I have one and buying a second is cheaper than a direct mount FD plus Problem Solvers adapter (the adapter is as much as the FD.
    '15 Specialized Fatboy
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  29. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    Does anyone know if 2.3 Big Apples will fit under full fenders like the Planet Bike Cascadia? I don't think SKS makes wide enough 700c fenders.
    I have 2.3 26" Big Apples under Cascadia fenders on my Big Dummy. They work just fine. I can't think that the 29" ones would be any different.

  30. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECR View Post
    You're comparing Apples to Oranges and Ardents. The Ardent 2.4 comes stock on the Karate Monkey, but these folks are running the Big Apple 2.35 and that is going to lower their BB.

    12.15 Karate Monkey w/Maxxis Ardent 2.4 (14.85 - 2.7)
    11.90 Karate Monkey w/Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35 (14.6 - 2.7)

    Don't remember where I got specs for the Ardent, but specs on Big Apple are from Schwalbe. If Ardents are any shorter, that would put the BB on a stock Karate Monkey lower than the ECR...oh no's!
    Don't think frame QC is to the point where you'll be able to accurately guess to a few tenths, much less the .05 diff of BA vs Ardents.

    FWIW, just measured my KM's BB w/2.4 Ardents at 12.5". So that's .35 right there, in tire and/or frame variance...

  31. #1081
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    Hello Ogre fans.

    Picked up my new ogre frame yesterday and have a quick questions regarding chain stays. My wheel when seated in the dropouts has tire rub on the drive side chain stay. When using the monkey nuts, the wheel is still a few mm closer to the drive side chain stay than the non. This happens even when I flip the wheel around in the dropouts, so it is not a wheel true-ness issue. Is this normal or is my frame a bit off?

    Thanks.

  32. #1082
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    Looks like I found an answer. My frame is tweaked. When I first looked at the frame I noticed the chain stay bridge was crooked but wasn't to worried. After looking some more I found the non drive side dropout plate was bent. Looks like the rear end as a whole is a bit off. Attached is a picture of the dropout. I will be contacting my shop soon.
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  33. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJS95 View Post
    Looks like I found an answer. My frame is tweaked. When I first looked at the frame I noticed the chain stay bridge was crooked but wasn't to worried. After looking some more I found the non drive side dropout plate was bent. Looks like the rear end as a whole is a bit off. Attached is a picture of the dropout. I will be contacting my shop soon.
    It's probably shipping damage, as opposed to manufacturer defect, but hopefully it all gets sorted out quick! While they figure out who's responsible, you're waiting. Hopefully, you'll just get a replacement immediately and they can sort it out in their own time. No sense to make the customer wait to ride his new bike. Sorry to hear about this, but best of luck.

  34. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gritter View Post
    It's probably shipping damage, as opposed to manufacturer defect, but hopefully it all gets sorted out quick! While they figure out who's responsible, you're waiting. Hopefully, you'll just get a replacement immediately and they can sort it out in their own time. No sense to make the customer wait to ride his new bike. Sorry to hear about this, but best of luck.
    Took it to my LBS today and they were checking the dropouts and making sure everything was aligned correctly, which it was. I pointed out the bent dropout plate to the mechanic and he seemed the think it was supposed to be like that but still said that on Monday when the guy who handles warranties comes in they will contact Surly. I am really hoping they will warranty it considering it is brand new, never been ridden.

  35. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJS95 View Post
    Took it to my LBS today and they were checking the dropouts and making sure everything was aligned correctly, which it was. I pointed out the bent dropout plate to the mechanic and he seemed the think it was supposed to be like that but still said that on Monday when the guy who handles warranties comes in they will contact Surly. I am really hoping they will warranty it considering it is brand new, never been ridden.
    Surly is great about warranty issues. I haven't had an issue yet.
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  36. #1086
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    Yeah, even though its steel, I would want a new frame. I don't think you'll have issues, as I've read a few cases in this forum where same thing happened and Surly immediately sent out a new frame.

  37. #1087
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    I'd be kind of surprised if the frame alignment is actually off, considering how heavy they are, but you'd definitely want someone who knows their stuff to check it out.

    Aligning dropouts on a steel frame certainly isn't rocket science, if that is all that's wrong, but I suppose many people are offended by little scratches that would be covered up by the QR/axle nut anyway...

  38. #1088
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    Heard back from my LBS. Apparently when surly is manufacturing frames, if something is out of spec, they will cold bend it to bring it back into spec. In this case it was the non-drive side dropout plate. Didn't really receive an answer about why the wheel rubs the drive side chain stay.
    Last edited by MJS95; 12-10-2013 at 01:22 AM.

  39. #1089
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    ^ If the wheel is true and correctly dished then it will only rub if installed incorrectly, or if the Q/R skewer or axle nuts are insufficiently tight and thus slip under load. If all these things are good, then maybe the frame isn't straight, but more likely the wheel just wasn't fitted correctly, or securely enough.

  40. #1090
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    If the inside ends of the dropouts aren't aligned, that would be a bummer--i.e. if you push the wheel all the way up to the front and it's not straight. Make sure your wheel is true and dished properly and you can find out yourself with a micrometer...

  41. #1091
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    Work in progress - not sure I dig the bars yet.

  42. #1092
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    santanas and Zowie,

    When I took the frame to my LBS the first thing they did was check the true and dish of my wheel. It was perfectly fine.

    santanas- the frame was never ridden, ie,no chance for anything to slip. When the wheel was fully seated in the dropouts the tire rubbed the drive side chain stay but cleared the no drive side just fine. With the use of monkey nuts it is slightly better but the wheel still sits quite closer to drive side than the non drive side.

    Zowie- My LBS still has the frame but they said that dropouts are aligned correctly. As for the rubbing, since everything is within spec, the answer was a surly frame is not going to be perfect.

    Thanks y'all for the input, I do appreciate it. I think I am going to contact surly because the LBS is not going to do anything and I am not overly impressed with the quality of the frame, which is unlike what I have generally heard about their stuff.

  43. #1093
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    I'd do the same thing. I can't help but think it sounds a bit like they don't want to eat time/shipping dealing with what they consider to be a 'borderline' issue. Speaking of, how off center is it? A few mm, or closer to a cm? The former and I'd agree, the latter and I'd wonder.

    Seems unusual to hear "within spec" from an LBS as opposed to a frame builder or the company who made it... makes me question whether or not they properly measured the alignment of the frame, or just looked at it long and hard and then decided "It's OK".

  44. #1094
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    Well I emailed Surly and received a very prompt reply from Eric, who asked a few questions, which I answered and he said he would contact my shop. Shortly after I received a call from the manager of my LBS, who was super cool and offered to replace the frame, or offered a sweet upgrade deal for an ECR frame, which were now in stock at QBP. I am stoked to say I should be riding an ECR on Friday night. I am very impressed with Surly's customer service, and very happy that my LBS is taking care of me.

    Thanks all for your input, definitely appreciated it.

  45. #1095
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    Happy Holidays!
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  46. #1096
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJS95 View Post
    Well I emailed Surly and received a very prompt reply from Eric, who asked a few questions, which I answered and he said he would contact my shop. Shortly after I received a call from the manager of my LBS, who was super cool and offered to replace the frame, or offered a sweet upgrade deal for an ECR frame, which were now in stock at QBP. I am stoked to say I should be riding an ECR on Friday night. I am very impressed with Surly's customer service, and very happy that my LBS is taking care of me.
    Very good! In my experience here in Oz it's more often been the bike company dragging their feet than the shop rather than the reverse. Glad it's all now on its way to being sorted.

  47. #1097
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    Crashmo what kind of tires are those?

    Regarding my earlier posts about fenders and 2.3" Big Apples, it does not work with a front derailleur... I did the method from the Surly blog post, using a Tuggnut, and my axle was like about to fall out of the dropouts before any tire clearance happened.

    Oh wellll.
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  48. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    Crashmo what kind of tires are those?

    Regarding my earlier posts about fenders and 2.3" Big Apples, it does not work with a front derailleur... I did the method from the Surly blog post, using a Tuggnut, and my axle was like about to fall out of the dropouts before any tire clearance happened.

    Oh wellll.
    Aw, man. I'm sorry for steering you the wrong way. I have 2.5 Hookworms ALL THE WAY forward in my Troll's dropouts with PB Cascadias with a Direct Mount front derailleur with tons of clearance everywhere. My Ogre only has 2.0 Big Apples, but it's no where near the Direct Mount adapter holding the Chain Guide on that bike. I know you mentioned you didn't want to purchase the D.M. adapter and a new derailleur, but would that essentially work? Man, I have so much clearance for fenders everywhere.

    I used a little spacer to mount the rear fender to the chainstay bridge, to push the fender backwards a tiny bit. Anyway, I hope you figure something out without buying anything else. Where there is a will, there is a way. Could you maybe post pictures?

  49. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX View Post
    Crashmo what kind of tires are those?

    Regarding my earlier posts about fenders and 2.3" Big Apples, it does not work with a front derailleur... I did the method from the Surly blog post, using a Tuggnut, and my axle was like about to fall out of the dropouts before any tire clearance happened.

    Oh wellll.
    Have you read both Ogre threads completely back to back?
    Combined with Surlys blog page on the subject I'd have thought there ample info.
    I cant comment on your front derailleur as I use an IGH myself hence my lack of input. Theres a few Ogres in there with both 2.35 BA's and Cascadia fenders.
    I didnt bother reading about f/derailleurs myself not utilising one.

  50. #1100
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    Gritter its ok! I wasn't steered wrong. I ultimately was prepared to fail, I figured the stock derailleur would ruin me.

    I didn't want to switch to direct mount FD yet because I need to put winter tires on it anyway as it is a commuter, but that'll probably be the route I head down if I want to say with 2.3" Big Apples.

    I just wanted to post up in case anyone else followed the Surly blog post instructions, it didn't occur to me until last night that the Big Apples are freaking huge. In the Surly instructions they showed a bike with the 2.3" Exiwolfs so I figured I'd be good to go.

    Rifraf: yes, I have been reading the ample subject matter... even without reading the problem was clearly what FD was mounted and how, more so than tire size.
    '15 Specialized Fatboy
    '14 Kona Zone Two
    '13 Surly Big Dummy

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