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Thread: surly ogre

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    Are the Monkey nuts included with the frameset
    Hello, Monkey Nuts and rear brake adapter came with my frame. My LBS ordered it direct.

  2. #352
    Fat!Drunk!Slow!
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    Another beautiful evening commuting home in Anchorage!!!

    Ogre in its natural setting!


    Ogre eating some grass!

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy View Post
    Maybe I'm shaped funny. I have had no issues with identical frame sizes, using a shorter stem and drop bars on one bike, and a longer stem and flat bars on the other. The stem and spacer set-up was the only "change to account for". I've gone to a slightly shorter stem on the "mountain" one since this picture, but these were my access twins.
    I'm not sure there's a polite way to say this, but the drop bar bike setup illustrated could probably best be described as "deformed." By normal drop bar standards:

    1. Steerer is too short (and stem is thus too low)
    2. Bars are consequently rotated up abnormally to raise the levers
    3. Levers are then set too low on the bars to compensate for the funny angle

    Assuming the brake hoods are in the right place - and I'm not at all confident this is the case - then the root cause is too low a head tube/steerer and/or too long a top tube. The strange setup then attempts to compensate for these problems. That's why things like Fargos have different geometry to frames intended for flat bars, and why frames will thus typically fit *most* people better when used as intended.

    Note that I'm not saying the result illustrated may not work for you, but correct or normal drop bar setup it is not. And for off-road use the stem would typically be even shorter and higher, with the aim of getting the hand position in the drops to have the same reach as a correct MTB flat bar position.

  4. #354
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy View Post
    Maybe I'm shaped funny. I have had no issues with identical frame sizes, using a shorter stem and drop bars on one bike, and a longer stem and flat bars on the other..
    Actually that means you do get it. The Fargo and Ogre are designed around 100/110 stem lengths and their respective style bars.

    A large Fargo's ETT is 3cm shorter than a large Ogre...shortened top tube allows them to spec drop bars and still use a 110 stem for predicatble handling. They certainly wouldn't want a longer ETT and spec an 80mm stem.
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  5. #355
    Still want a fat bike....
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    Quote Originally Posted by lusss View Post
    Hello,
    what is the ref of your headset spacer? it seems so awesome ..
    That spacer is a "re-purposed" Specialized bike frame. I didn't want to cut the steerer yet, so I needed something and that happened to work nicely. I may change it over to a stack of spacers and cut that tube one day, but I kinda like it the way it is so far.
    I am a man of many words. KCCO!

  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    I'm not sure there's a polite way to say this, but the drop bar bike setup illustrated could probably best be described as "deformed." By normal drop bar standards:

    1. Steerer is too short (and stem is thus too low)
    2. Bars are consequently rotated up abnormally to raise the levers
    3. Levers are then set too low on the bars to compensate for the funny angle

    Assuming the brake hoods are in the right place - and I'm not at all confident this is the case - then the root cause is too low a head tube/steerer and/or too long a top tube. The strange setup then attempts to compensate for these problems. That's why things like Fargos have different geometry to frames intended for flat bars, and why frames will thus typically fit *most* people better when used as intended.

    Note that I'm not saying the result illustrated may not work for you, but correct or normal drop bar setup it is not. And for off-road use the stem would typically be even shorter and higher, with the aim of getting the hand position in the drops to have the same reach as a correct MTB flat bar position.
    Quote Originally Posted by kkjellquist View Post
    Actually that means you do get it.
    Well it's good to know that I don't get it. And that I get it

    Thanks for the diagnosis but just to respond:

    1. The steerer on an Ogre fork is 14 feet long from the factory. I cut it waaaaay down to this length (still using a gaggle of spacers) because this is where it needs to be to put the flats of my drop bar in the right place. It's a T instead of a Y. If you to up and to the right, the tip of the T is in the same place as the tip of the Y. The steerer is not too short. If it was too short, I'd need to use one of those dumb looking 'dirt drop' stems that stick way up in the air

    2. The bars are not rotated up abnormally to raise the levers. The bars and the levers are actually two separate items. You can put the levers wherever you want after you put the bars where you want. the bars are rotated up 'abnormally' to create a flat top, which becomes an even more comfortable, happy place when you combine it with my brake location. Like most humans, I spend the vast majority of my time on the hoods when I'm riding drop bars, and for things like touring, I want a big, comfortable, flat place there...not a weird downward racer-boy angle like a road bike.

    3. the levers are not set too low on the bars. They are set in the exact right spot to create that happy place on the hoods.

    The 'drop' part of the bar, with this set-up, is a bonus. It's a wind weapon, primarily. It's gravy. My set up is built around normal drop bars and spending 90% of my time on the hoods. I "get" that it's not a "normal" dirt-drop set-up... Personally, I'd rather ride a real mountain bike than play with all those cute handlebar options. On the trail, I use the drops some, but with BB7's it's easy to one-finger the brakes from the hoods. But for the trail, I have a whole other bike. If this bike goes to full-time trail mode, it will get mountain bike bars.

    Also, the shorter stem does not adversly affect handling. That's math talking, not experience. I have felt the twitchy effects of a super-short stem, and absolutely none of those symptoms are there. I have a 'real' road bike also, and I don't go from that to this and think that this one is twitchy or weird or anything. It's solid as a rock, predictable, and fun. I've used this set up hauling a fully loaded trailer while touring, I've used it commuting, rail trail/dirt road riding, singletrack switchbacks... it's great.

    Also, this set up puts my bar-end shifters exactly where I want them. Easy to grab a gear, and completely out of the way of my knees when I get out of the saddle.

    I know it's not conventional, but I still contend that if you wanted a "real" dirt-drop set up on this bike, it would be easy to achieve, regardless of what the marketing department at Salsa says about the ETT of a 'dirt drop specific' bike. To me, that concept is silly, based on my real-world experience. Stem length is variable for a reason, and an ETT difference of a couple centemeters does not dictate what kind of bars you can use effectively.
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  7. #357
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    I agree with commuterboy on this one. though most bikes are spec'd for 100-110 stems, not everyone uses or even prefers those length stems. so long as you can get the bars up to where you want them comfortably, doesn't seem like much of an issue......also, these guys are riding drop bar trolls (with pretty sweet internal gear setups) from alaska to south america and seem to really dig them.

    Bound South

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy View Post
    an ETT difference of a couple centemeters does not dictate what kind of bars you can use effectively.
    It dictates, this if you want your hands on the same place as with the other bar, and without using silly stems or spacers

  9. #359
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    There's no arguing with that. That's one of the reasons that I may stoped looking at the Fargo or Gryphon. I'm really trying to decide now between the new gen Swift and the Ogre, leaning to the Ogre side due to price, colour, and braze ons

  10. #360
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    ^^ True to a point.... I guess I'd rather have a spacer stack than a typical 'dirt drop' stem. Just personal preference, strictly asthetics.

    I guess (to bring it all back around to the Fargo) I'd rather have a set up like mine that I find really comfortable, knowing that I have the option of making this my full-time mountian bike and that it will fit perfect with a MTB bar....than a Fargo, which might feel too short if I tried to use a MTB bar. Then I'd have to go to a really long stem, which can feel sluggish and weird to me. My whole point here is that I think the Ogre (or any more traditional mountain geometry bike) is more versatile. (granted, my logic can work the other way... who's to say a long stem and a flat bar wouldn't work on a Fargo? I haven't tried it.)

    I just like buying a frame based on what I know I want in a mountain bike (ETT-wise), and making the drops work, since I know I'll probably want to set it up with a flat or riser bar in the future. And lucky for me, the drops work really well.
    Last edited by CommuterBoy; 05-15-2012 at 10:54 AM.
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  11. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    One thing intrigues me, why aren't around here more true mtb Ogres? Most people seem to use them for commuting.
    I was going to buy an Orge to use 50% as a bikepacking rig and 50% as winter MTB for our sloppy PNW conditions.

    Had one on order and ended up canceling it in favour of an On One Scandal 29er.

    Since I planned to run a RS Reba fork I didn't need the steel Ogre fork and the Scandal was pounds lighter, cheaper, had a seattube sized for a dropper post, tapered head tube for compatibility with a wide range of forks, swappable dropouts for optimized geared or SS [in my case IGH] use and the AL frame needs less care when used in wet conditions.

    I have quite a few Surly frames so I have no doubt the Ogre would have been great if that's the way I ended up going. If I was only going to use the bike for bikepacking the Ogre's rigid fork would have been fine and I wouldn't want a dropper post. I would have likely stuck with my initial order.

    BTW - if you want to use the bike fo MTBing primarily buying a Karate Monkey might make more sense. The KM fork is less overbuilt and would be more fun for an unloaded bike.
    Safe riding,

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  12. #362
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    Thank you for the very helpful intervention.
    May I say that I have no interest on suspension forks.

    About the KM, the fork is the main advantage of the Ogre over it for me, in the way it can carry some stuff. If I don't pick the Ogre, then I'll get a new Swift, and I can't see any advantage of the KM over the Singular, if you get me
    Last edited by Ze_Zaskar; 05-15-2012 at 06:16 PM.

  13. #363
    mwv
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjwall View Post
    I agree with commuterboy on this one. though most bikes are spec'd for 100-110 stems, not everyone uses or even prefers those length stems. so long as you can get the bars up to where you want them comfortably, doesn't seem like much of an issue......also, these guys are riding drop bar trolls (with pretty sweet internal gear setups) from alaska to south america and seem to really dig them.

    Bound South

    I originally set out to build a drop bar Troll for touring as influenced by those guys. Being rather new to this stuff I was learning as I went and from reading, etc I figured I was fighting an uphill battle trying to get drops to work for me on that frame. I had the stem, I had the bars I had everything but the wheels as I was waiting for them to get built. I decided I might not ever be comfortable due to the longer top tube. I figured I would have to go with a stem so short that I'd hate the twitchy-ness. Well I've got the flat bars exactly where I need them to be and after the fact I realized I've gone so much longer on the stem (110) than I ever imagined and I could have easily got the drops to work with a decently sized stem (80-90). With a front pannier rack that would be nice and stable.

    I love the bike how I have it now, but knowing what I know now it didn't make any sense to attempt to figure out stem length without actually riding it for a decent amount of time. I keep going lower and longer on the stem.

  14. #364
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
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    A few more pics of my new Ogre in action...both taken at Bent Creek in NC yesterday afternoon. I'll be doing my first all day Pisgah ride with it tomorrow.
    Untitled

    Untitled
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  15. #365
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    Nice front rack. Who's the maker?

  16. #366
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    Nice front rack. Who's the maker?
    Nitto - Nitto Mark's Rack - 20108
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  17. #367
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    126$......Outch

  18. #368
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    just got the ogre frame/ fork i ordered for my son this morning

    ordered it several months ago, but was happy to find out that it already had the additional/ updated fork and downtube braze-ons

    already have front and rear surly racks with deuter pannier bags

    just need to replace the surly hub with an xt freehub so that my son can finally try out a geared bike

    so excited, can't wait to get it built-up

    ;-)
    biker boy

  19. #369
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    Finally got mine after waiting a few months. Went out on a good road, gravel and muddy singletrack ride today and it was amazing on all surfaces! I original brought it as a bit of a A-B bike and a child hauler but I think it will get a lot more use doing other things as well after riding it today.




  20. #370
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    Great looking Ogre!
    Probably my favorite one so far

  21. #371
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    By the way, is that a 20'' frame?

  22. #372
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    Cheers,
    Yeah it's a 20" frame. I am 6ft and its fit is spot on.

  23. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    126$......Outch
    Not to go too off-topic but I have the Nitto Big Back Rack and the Mini-Front Rack and they are both absolutely beautiful, both functionally and cosmetically. Got both from Rivendell as well.

  24. #374
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    My Ogre, ready for play, and at work.


  25. #375
    I Ride for Donuts
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    1. I want your job.

    2. What's up with your rear dropout in pic #1? It looks like someone took a hacksaw to my rear dropout and added an aluminum plate.
    You have no excuse for driving to work
    (unless you don't have studded tires)
    (no excuse for that either)

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