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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    Yes is the answer. That bike needs a black collar anyway
    That's what I was thinking. Not to mention, I think those NoTubes stickers on my wheels have got to go as well to get a more stealth black look.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    FWIW, I just broke the bolt to my Surly collar the other night. Your caution is justified.
    Bummer. As my post was slipping on the trail yesterday and I kept stopping to tighten it, I sensed the impending danger of doing the same, but stopped before I hit that point.

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  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    That's what I was thinking. Not to mention, I think those NoTubes stickers on my wheels have got to go as well to get a more stealth black look.



    Bummer. As my post was slipping on the trail yesterday and I kept stopping to tighten it, I sensed the impending danger of doing the same, but stopped before I hit that point.

    BB
    Good call. It's my opinion that rim stickers should always be peeled. But I think all stickers should be peeled...

    Took less torque than I would have expected to break that bolt. If you replace the Surly clamp, let us know what you go with. I've been disappointed by the Hope bolt-on, as well as the Thomson. I still need to try the Salsa.
    Last edited by mattbryant2; 12-15-2012 at 11:29 AM.

  3. #603
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    I agree with you on the rim decals, lose them.
    But i disagree with you on the Thomson seatclamp, i have one on my Cannondale and it works great. (to bad it doesn't fit on my Surly's)
    I weigh around 265# and the one i had on before kept slipping and i kept tightening it until... Snap !

  4. #604
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    My Thomson clamp was constantly creaking due to dirt finding its way underneath the bottom interior lip, which I concluded was a design flaw. I was actually disappointed with my Thomson post, as well, so I've moved away from the brand entirely. Shame because the parts are so pretty, and I like supporting domestic manufacturing.

    My relationship with Thomson parts is analogous to my relationship with nearly every "high-end" part I've tried -- I end up preferring the less blingy, slightly heavier, much less fussy alternative. I am just getting rid of my last King headset and doubt I'll go back, I greatly prefer my XT hubs to the Pro IIs I had previously, my Deore cranks are much nicer than the Mr. Whirlys they replaced, etc. etc. etc.

    Anyway, I digress. I apologize for the hijack.

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  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Rides exactly the same - at least in terms of feel and handling.

    Noted differences include:

    •Longer head tube on the newest frame (positive for me).

    •Disc brake only which rules out certain configurations I used on the older frame (I knew that going into it, so I won't label it a negative or a positive).

    •About 4mm wider in the chainstay area which allows use of a Ralph 2.4, Ardent 2.4, Nic 2.35, etc.... back there without experiencing rub (positive).

    •Cable routing is under the top tube (I'm going to call that a negative as the entire weight of the cable is on the zip ties which is not a problem for hydraulic disc brakes, but is not the best support system for cable pull mechanical disc brakes - I broke the front zip tie on test ride number one).

    •Seatpost collar is not as sturdy and strong as the older model (negative).

    •Rear disc brake mounts are in a better location to allow for rear wheel removal without having to loosen the caliper mounting bolts (positive).

    *Lugs at the TT/HT juncture on the new frame (negative in terms of looks for me, positive for those who dig lugs).

    •On the old frame, my grips would contact the TT if turning the wheel which is nothing to worry about in terms of frame scratching. On the new frame with the bars at the same exact height, the brake levers hit the TT which could case a scratch or two. No biggie, but it illustrates that the TT is lower than on the older frame - at least in size XL.

    All of that being said, I have not yet tried the rigid fork that came with the new frame. I will be interested to do that to compare as I have 9 years of riding the old frame as a rigid under my belt, and only a couple of weeks with a suspension fork.

    Net-net, I'd say the positives were worth the upgrade for me.

    BB
    Bruce, do you know when these changes occurred? I have a 2008 Monkey and although I love the ride, I have some minor issues with it. The head tube is only 95mm (large), the chainstays don't allow pushing an Ardent 2.4 all the way forward, and top of top tube cable routing. The cable routing and head tube have obviously been addressed in the new frame but this is the first time I have had someone confirm that there is more space between the chainstays. Is there any way you could show the chainstay differences between the years? IMO, the Monkey is the best and original short stay 29'er. I rode a nimble 9 not too long ago a d while I had high hopes for the frame, I came away very dissappointed.

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1 View Post
    Bruce, do you know when these changes occurred? I have a 2008 Monkey and although I love the ride, I have some minor issues with it. The head tube is only 95mm (large), the chainstays don't allow pushing an Ardent 2.4 all the way forward, and top of top tube cable routing. The cable routing and head tube have obviously been addressed in the new frame but this is the first time I have had someone confirm that there is more space between the chainstays. Is there any way you could show the chainstay differences between the years? IMO, the Monkey is the best and original short stay 29'er. I rode a nimble 9 not too long ago a d while I had high hopes for the frame, I came away very dissappointed.
    I don't know exactly which generation of KM frame that the width at the chainstay was added, but there was a point along the way when Surly upped it. I believe it was the version right before the latest (so between your 2008 and the latest incarnation). But don't quote me on that. Maybe somebody else will chime in on the version differences to clarify it.

    The refinements in the latest frame version was enough to attract my attention thanks to the longer head tube, disc brake only, more forgiving fork, top tube redesign, etc... . Your frame bumped up to 110mm in head tube length which cuts down on the plumbing requirements over the 95mm you have.

    I can measure for you the distance between the chainstays on the 2002-3 frame and the 2012-13 frame while taking pictures of me doing that so you can compare to your bike. I have no idea if there was a step-ladder approach to adding width over the generations, or if it was a one time refinement at some point (like this new frame version). Pictures probably won't happen until this afternoon since I'm heading up to hear my son sing a solo this morning. But I will do that for you at some point today.

    In my first measurement between the two frames I have, the new black frame is 4mm wider than my original Campstove green. 4mm is significant as that is the difference between a true 2.25" tire and a true 2.4" tire.

    I still would like a bit more clearance for mud, but it's a very important improvement - IMO - so I can run the big meat in the rear. I also have the Ardents which are, for all practical purposes, very similar in casing width, tread width, height to the Racing Ralph 2.4. Measuring out the differences would be splitting hairs with regard to 1/2 a millimeter here, 1/2 a millimeter there.

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  7. #607
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    I took some quick measurements on my 2012 monkey without taking the wheel out.
    Wheel : P-35 with a new model Big Apple : 61mm
    Total clearance between the seatstays : 80mm
    Total clearance between the chainstays : 78mm
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Let's see your KM builds-dscn1692.jpg  


  8. #608
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    I also have a 2007-8 Monkey and just measured the stays, Seatstay=92mm, Chainstay=76mm (measured at the dimple) Never understood why the seat stays had so much room and then the chain stays got narrower by so much. Just measured a 2.4" Ardent on Crest rim (front wheel) and got 60mm, so I'd have thought it would fit, although tight. I've run a WW LT in back without issue and that's just a tad smaller.

    Personally I for some reason don't like running the stays slammed, makes the bike too twitchy for me, yet I like my Paradox with it's 16.9" stays Seriously waiting for the Knard to become available so I can run it paired with either the Ardent 2.4" or WW LT on some 35mm rims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1 View Post
    Bruce, do you know when these changes occurred? I have a 2008 Monkey and although I love the ride, I have some minor issues with it. The head tube is only 95mm (large), the chainstays don't allow pushing an Ardent 2.4 all the way forward, and top of top tube cable routing. The cable routing and head tube have obviously been addressed in the new frame but this is the first time I have had someone confirm that there is more space between the chainstays. Is there any way you could show the chainstay differences between the years? IMO, the Monkey is the best and original short stay 29'er. I rode a nimble 9 not too long ago a d while I had high hopes for the frame, I came away very dissappointed.
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  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    I took some quick measurements on my 2012 monkey without taking the wheel out.

    Total clearance between the seatstays : 80mm
    Total clearance between the chainstays : 78mm
    Old KM seatstay: 80mm
    New KM seatstay: 80mm (no change as it wasn't warranted)

    Old KM chainstay: 70-71mm (70.x on top, 71mm on the bottom)
    New KM chainstay: 78mm on the bottom

    It's not easy to really see the improved chainstay clearance in photographs, but trust me it is there. I would get rub using the Ralph 2.4 in the rear on the old KM on climbs. Not so on the new frame with the same tire thanks to the additional 4mm on each side.

    I am actually not going to take the rear wheel off the new KM today to shoot a picture with the calipers in there because my back wheel with the Tuggnut and chain tension is set up perfectly at the moment. Those of you who have to fiddle to get things lined up back there understand - I'm sure. I'm a nice guy, but not nice enough to go out in the cold garage and mess with all of that for a photo. I measured the width of the chainstay between the indentation points of the chainstays.

    In spite of the cold, I did go out to take some flipped upside down bike pictures. My close up photography is terrible. What shows up in the photo is not what I see in the real situation as my viewfinder doesn't line up with the lens.

    Regardless old KM with a Ralph 2.4 (note: the tire is not pushed as far forward in this photo as it is on my new 2012 frame because I was running gears in this picture and the Monkey Nuts were installed):

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/2093694998/" title="KM&amp;RRchainstay by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2137/2093694998_1a982a7fbb_z.jpg?zz=1" width="640" height="480" alt="KM&amp;RRchainstay"></a>

    New KM with the same Ralph 2.4 (and you see the additional brace that was added between the chainstays when Surly tweaked the frames to have wider clearance):

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8277652481/" title="P1010004 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8487/8277652481_1d4a8dd5eb_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="P1010004"></a>

    Speaking of my "bad photography", what you see for clearance on the right side of the picture is exactly how much space is also on the left side between the tire and chainstay. Yet, the picture doesn't depict that at all. Go figure.

    Couple more...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8278709042/" title="P1010007 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8065/8278709042_bb3a4ec8d0_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="P1010007"></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8277652641/" title="P1010002 2 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8346/8277652641_1d5d071bbd_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="P1010002 2"></a>
    Last edited by BruceBrown; 12-16-2012 at 11:05 AM.

  10. #610
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    I have a 12 km with 2.4 racing ralphs on p35. Wheel slammed forward gives tire rub on the stays when cranking hard.
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  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    I have a 12 km with 2.4 racing ralphs on p35. Wheel slammed forward gives tire rub on the stays when cranking hard.
    I would imagine it's not the only frame that this would occur on since the tire "grows" on a P35 2-3mm in extra width. What does your Ralph measure out to on the P35 in mm's (casing width and knob width)? I would think that rim would be more beneficial to run on the front of a KM with a rigid fork, rather than in the rear. Not that the KM is an All Mountain sort of ride to begin with, coupled with the built in flex of a steel frame.

    Even with a 2.4 in the rear on a Flow, I don't have a generous amount of room left for mud collection when running a 2.4. I do not, however, experience tire rub on the chainstays on the new KM. We certainly push the envelope and rim width is one thing to be taken into consideration when choosing a frame.
    Last edited by BruceBrown; 12-16-2012 at 12:18 PM.

  12. #612
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    I would love to hear your thoughts on the KM vs the N9. I've been thinking about the Nimble 9 for quite a while, but I'm still suspicious of the slack geometry (and I'm borderline too cheap to spend $700 for an otherwise basic Taiwanese steel frame)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1 View Post
    IMO, the Monkey is the best and original short stay 29'er. I rode a nimble 9 not too long ago a d while I had high hopes for the frame, I came away very dissappointed.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    I would imagine it's not the only frame that this would occur on since the tire "grows" on a P35 2-3mm in extra width. What does your Ralph measure out to on the P35 in mm's (casing width and knob width)? I would think that rim would be more beneficial to run on the front of a KM with a rigid fork, rather than in the rear. Not that the KM is an All Mountain sort of ride to begin with, coupled with the built in flex of a steel frame.

    Even with a 2.4 in the rear on a Flow, I don't have a generous amount of room left for mud collection when running a 2.4. I do not, however, experience tire rub on the chainstays on the new KM. We certainly push the envelope and rim width is one thing to be taken into consideration when choosing a frame.
    Mine measure right at 2.4 using calipers. Yeah, I'm running out of production frames to fit the fatness I want. I guess I'll need to pick up a custom or the krampus framset!

    I want to try the knard on my p35 for the front of my monkey. Rear, obviously no way. Might be too squirmy though.

    P35s are huge. Love em. Don't hold a bead like stans and they seem to dent easily, but what fun otherwise.
    Last edited by thickfog; 12-16-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by thickfog View Post
    Yeah, I'm running out of production frames to fit the fatness I want. I guess I'll need to pick up a custom or the krampus framset!
    Why not just get a Fat Bike and be done with it?

    Only 61mm on the P35's? Hmmm....I would have figured they gained 2-3mm.

  15. #615
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    I've got two fatbikes already. I want something between normal mt bike and fatbike. I'm betting I'd like the krampus, but I want to try one before I buy. The big but is do I want a 30lb single speed?

    Yeah, right at 2.4., but still much wider than any of my other regular bikes.
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  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    I would love to hear your thoughts on the KM vs the N9. I've been thinking about the Nimble 9 for quite a while, but I'm still suspicious of the slack geometry (and I'm borderline too cheap to spend $700 for an otherwise basic Taiwanese steel frame)
    The N9 was setup very similar to my Monkey. Large frame, single speed, medium width wheels, wide tires, and 685mm bars. The N9 had a flat bar with a 90mm stem while my Monkey has a very low rise 12* bar with a longer stem. The major difference was that the N9 was tubeless and running ridiculously low pressures 8 to 14psi while I run 17 psi front and 21 psi rear.

    First impressions with a leg over the bike was that the head tube is much taller but not intrusive. The steering has significant floppiness to it, but the seating position was very similar to my Monkey.

    Once riding, my disappointments set in quickly. The chainstays are WIDE. I rarely hit the chainstays on the Monkey, but with the N9 my heels were hittting the chainstays on just about every rotation. I had to consciously pigeon toe to avoid the strikes. The floppiness of the steering translated to a twitchy ride and the low pressures made the bike even more squirrelly on the trails. I could ride fast but I was correcting quite a bit. The Monkey drives straight and true while the N9 was jetting left and right. The tall front end and slack steering gave some confidence with speed and descents. The wheelbase or footprint felt very similar to the Monkey and the ride very familiar in that aspect. With the low pressures in the tires, it was difficult to judge the stiffness of the frame.

    Even with proper air pressure in the tires, the floppiness and wide chainstays were a deal breaker for me. I only spent about 10 minutes on the N9, but I was glad to get my Monkey back. It made me appreciate the ride that much more.

  17. #617
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    I appreciate the feedback. I demo'd a Jamis Dragon 650B, which is also part of the slack trend (68* HA with a 120mm fork), and I really didn't care for it. It too felt quite floppy on the climbs. Sounds like the Nimble 9 is kind of similar.

    It's nice to hear a change of opinion from the love fest that is the Nimble 9 thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1 View Post
    The N9 was setup very similar to my Monkey. Large frame, single speed, medium width wheels, wide tires, and 685mm bars. The N9 had a flat bar with a 90mm stem while my Monkey has a very low rise 12* bar with a longer stem. The major difference was that the N9 was tubeless and running ridiculously low pressures 8 to 14psi while I run 17 psi front and 21 psi rear.

    First impressions with a leg over the bike was that the head tube is much taller but not intrusive. The steering has significant floppiness to it, but the seating position was very similar to my Monkey.

    Once riding, my disappointments set in quickly. The chainstays are WIDE. I rarely hit the chainstays on the Monkey, but with the N9 my heels were hittting the chainstays on just about every rotation. I had to consciously pigeon toe to avoid the strikes. The floppiness of the steering translated to a twitchy ride and the low pressures made the bike even more squirrelly on the trails. I could ride fast but I was correcting quite a bit. The Monkey drives straight and true while the N9 was jetting left and right. The tall front end and slack steering gave some confidence with speed and descents. The wheelbase or footprint felt very similar to the Monkey and the ride very familiar in that aspect. With the low pressures in the tires, it was difficult to judge the stiffness of the frame.

    Even with proper air pressure in the tires, the floppiness and wide chainstays were a deal breaker for me. I only spent about 10 minutes on the N9, but I was glad to get my Monkey back. It made me appreciate the ride that much more.

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    My Thomson clamp was constantly creaking due to dirt finding its way underneath the bottom interior lip, which I concluded was a design flaw. I was actually disappointed with my Thomson post, as well, so I've moved away from the brand entirely. Shame because the parts are so pretty, and I like supporting domestic manufacturing
    I hear you. I'm using a Thomson seat post because it was the only 27.4 I could find when I was putting my last project together. It doesn't really perform better or worse than any other.
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  19. #619
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    Lumbee, don't you think that maybe with a wider bar you might have liked the handling on the Nimble better? My thought on the matter at least, is that something in the 720mm+ range would help slow the steering down and give better control. My Paradox I never really noticed wheel flop and I ran 685mm bar for a good while on it, but it really came alive when I got my 750mm FUNN bar. Also you don't mention what fork was on it, I think that's also important since a lot of people are actually running 140mm forks on them and that to me would really slack out the bike and make the steering feel quite floppy, especially if it's one of the older forks with only 46mm offset and not 51mm which I have on my F34. My Prime does feel a bit floppy if I put it down for a few weeks and ride only the KM rigid, but it only takes a few minutes and then everything feels right as rain
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  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Lumbee, don't you think that maybe with a wider bar you might have liked the handling on the Nimble better? My thought on the matter at least, is that something in the 720mm+ range would help slow the steering down and give better control. My Paradox I never really noticed wheel flop and I ran 685mm bar for a good while on it, but it really came alive when I got my 750mm FUNN bar. Also you don't mention what fork was on it, I think that's also important since a lot of people are actually running 140mm forks on them and that to me would really slack out the bike and make the steering feel quite floppy, especially if it's one of the older forks with only 46mm offset and not 51mm which I have on my F34. My Prime does feel a bit floppy if I put it down for a few weeks and ride only the KM rigid, but it only takes a few minutes and then everything feels right as rain
    Rigid steel forks on both bikes (468mm with a 45mm rake). The N9 had a Vassago Odis and my Monkey had a Waltworks. I sold him the fork

    I don't think a wider bar would have made any difference. I agree that a wide bar does change the ride dynamics of a bike but I am actually glad that the bars were the same width. With the specs of each bike being so similar, it allows for a more apples to apples comparison.

    I really wanted to like the N9. I sold my FS bike and almost clicked the "Add to Cart" button on Canfield's website within the same day. Is the N9 worth twice the cost of a new Monkey frame? Absolutely not. Even if the frames were equal in cost, I would still chose the Monkey over the N9. The N9 just isn't my cup of tea.

  21. #621
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    Followup:
    If Surly slackened the head angle a half degree and made the head tube 10mm taller, I think it would really swing some folks away from the slack AM 29'ers. The reason I was looking at the N9 to begin with was because I wanted a more modern geometry that matches my riding style.

  22. #622
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    I cannot imagine how the N9 would pedal with a rigid 468mm A2C fork and how many pedal strikes it would have The N9, Yelli, Paradox and the rest were mainly designed around 120mm forks in the 510-520 A2C range with 45mm offset or greater, I would guess I wouldn't like the handling either. Now I've never ridden the N9, but do have a Paradox who's numbers are similar and when I tried it using an older Reba 100mm with 38mm offset it didn't feel great, but when I moved to the 120mm Minute with 20mm TA and 48mm offset it came alive. Do agree to an extent with you having same width bars does help in comparison, but since giving wider bars a try have to say they most definitely suit these slacker bikes more - have no bar narrower than 28"/711mm wide now and that's on the Monkey for commuting, prefer my FUNN Fatboy bars @ 750mm & 785mm wide.

    Sometime in the future I plan to pick up a 500mm A2C rigid for my Monkey as I just don't like how steep and twitchy the HA is with the stock fork, definitely enjoy when I put the 120mm Minute on it which sagged I'd guess is somewhere around 500mm A2C.
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  23. #623
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    i owned a n9 before my ogre and the km i own now. first ran it w/an odis fork, 710mm bar. bb bracket was a bit low, handled good, once took it down a 15 mile downhill, alpine trail in oakridge, OR for a good assessment. when i slapped an older 100mm reba on it, i was surprised how floppy the front was when climbing real steep stuff. didn't like it, i got rid of it, picked up an ogre for my camper/tourer, liked it so much i picked up a km.

    to me the km fits my riding style better, i've gone through a bunch of 26" hardtails, fs, and a few 29" hardtails. the km just works for me, i just picked up another fully built new km SS off ebay for my wet winter beater. for the quality, price, craftsmanship, aesthetic i think surly will always have my $$. i live in an area (norcal) where custom steel 29ers are all over, i know a few of the builders, own a custom hunter cx, and really desire a custom 29er. probably could never afford a custom 29er, but i could have a bunch of surly bikes.

  24. #624
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    Sorry to digress, but I must say I didn't really like my N9 with a "short" fork (Niner carbon) at all. Adding a longer fork (Fox 120mm) really made it better.

  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I cannot imagine how the N9 would pedal with a rigid 468mm A2C fork and how many pedal strikes it would have The N9, Yelli, Paradox and the rest were mainly designed around 120mm forks in the 510-520 A2C range with 45mm offset or greater, I would guess I wouldn't like the handling either. Now I've never ridden the N9, but do have a Paradox who's numbers are similar and when I tried it using an older Reba 100mm with 38mm offset it didn't feel great, but when I moved to the 120mm Minute with 20mm TA and 48mm offset it came alive. Do agree to an extent with you having same width bars does help in comparison, but since giving wider bars a try have to say they most definitely suit these slacker bikes more - have no bar narrower than 28"/711mm wide now and that's on the Monkey for commuting, prefer my FUNN Fatboy bars @ 750mm & 785mm wide.

    Sometime in the future I plan to pick up a 500mm A2C rigid for my Monkey as I just don't like how steep and twitchy the HA is with the stock fork, definitely enjoy when I put the 120mm Minute on it which sagged I'd guess is somewhere around 500mm A2C.
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  26. #626
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    Bruce, thanks again for the pictures. It helps a lot. The bridge might be the indicator for the additional chainstay clearance. I do not have the bridge on my 08 Monkey. This also narrows down my choices for a new frame considerably: $1500 custom Waltworks with geo similar to a Monkey or a 2013 Monkey.

  27. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1 View Post
    Bruce, thanks again for the pictures. It helps a lot. The bridge might be the indicator for the additional chainstay clearance. I do not have the bridge on my 08 Monkey. This also narrows down my choices for a new frame considerably: $1500 custom Waltworks with geo similar to a Monkey or a 2013 Monkey.
    Racing Ralph 2.4 is doing fine on the rear mounted tubeless to a Flow on my new KM. It's pretty hard to imagine (at least for me) spending $1500 when a $400 frame does so well. But if you really want a tad more clearance to run the biggest of biggest meats that might come along, then perhaps it is worth it for you. It does not have the same clearance as my RIP 9 frame in the rear, but it's got enough more over my prior frame to run the Ralph 2.4 with no problems. I've actually got another tire that I want to run back there which I cannot mention (tire testing agreement) or show in pictures that is absolutely the cat's meow.

    The 2.4 Ralph in the rear with a nice comfy psi combined with the steel frame really makes this a supple ride. Keep in mind I'm running a suspension fork.

    I had it out in the wild today for 2 hours and will do the same tomorrow before snowstorm #1 of the season hits in the evening.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8286510972/" title="P1010003 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8212/8286510972_079afc7e10_b.jpg" width="1024" height="679" alt="P1010003"></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8286511536/" title="P1010001 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8353/8286511536_6e9bbeb3c1_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="P1010001"></a>

    Edit: 25.79 pounds as shown (with mud on the tires) in case anybody asks.
    Last edited by BruceBrown; 12-19-2012 at 08:17 AM.

  28. #628
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    The new 22" frame looks much better with the dropped top tube than the previous frames. I will be watching the bay for deals on a Large.

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    Bruce,

    Nice looking bike you've got there! Would you mind telling us your height and cycling inseam? Your bike looks pretty dialed...

    I'm almost 6'3", ~35" cycling inseam, can't test ride a L or XL...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoastieTX View Post
    Bruce,

    Nice looking bike you've got there! Would you mind telling us your height and cycling inseam? Your bike looks pretty dialed...

    I'm almost 6'3", ~35" cycling inseam, can't test ride a L or XL...
    I have 6'3" with 37" inseam and was between 20" and 22" - I choosed 22".

    Your 6'3" and 35" means, that you must have a longer upper body than me. 22" should be prefect for you because of the longer effective top tube

  31. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoastieTX View Post
    Bruce,

    Nice looking bike you've got there! Would you mind telling us your height and cycling inseam? Your bike looks pretty dialed...

    I'm almost 6'3", ~35" cycling inseam, can't test ride a L or XL...
    Sure. I'm 6'3" (191.5cm), 35.5" cycling inseam. The L would be too small for me and I would have to run 130mm stem and a set back post to make that rideable. On the XL, I run a 120mm stem with the seat slammed as far bike as I can get it. Using 175mm cranks on the Monkey in hopes it helps with the "spin", but I use 180mm on all my other bikes.

  32. #632
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    I am 6'2" with a 34" inseam and ride a 20" with a 105mm stem and setback seatpost. I used to like a larger bike with a short stem and straight post but with the Monkey, I prefer the exact oppsite. The Monkey feels nimble and eager with the smaller frame.

  33. #633
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    I've been riding larger bikes lately, but I downsized back to my old ways with the Monkey. At 6'3", I'm riding a 20" frame. Compared to my 22" Soma Juice, the wheelbase is about 1.5" shorter, due to the shorter chainstays (by 15mm or so) and the shorter top tube (by 20mm or so). That makes the KM quite a bit more flickable, it seems. I run a 100mm stem on the KM vs. a 75mm on the Soma.

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    My new to me Surly Karate Monkey. XTR, Avid black ops, Chris King, Thomson stem/seatpost, American Classic tubeless.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Let's see your KM builds-4h8c4593_2.jpg  


  35. #635
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    6'2.25", 35.25" inseam long arms and I got the XL, can't imagine running anything smaller. I run a 90mm stem and 750mm wide low rise bars. Bruce AFAIR doesn't run a bar over 700, so take that into account when he list his stem length. When I ran a 685mm wide bar I also ran a 110-120mm stem.

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Sure. I'm 6'3" (191.5cm), 35.5" cycling inseam. The L would be too small for me and I would have to run 130mm stem and a set back post to make that rideable. On the XL, I run a 120mm stem with the seat slammed as far bike as I can get it. Using 175mm cranks on the Monkey in hopes it helps with the "spin", but I use 180mm on all my other bikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by CoastieTX View Post
    Bruce,

    Nice looking bike you've got there! Would you mind telling us your height and cycling inseam? Your bike looks pretty dialed...

    I'm almost 6'3", ~35" cycling inseam, can't test ride a L or XL...
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??
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  36. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    6'2.25", 35.25" inseam long arms and I got the XL, can't imagine running anything smaller. I run a 90mm stem and 750mm wide low rise bars. Bruce AFAIR doesn't run a bar over 700, so take that into account when he list his stem length. When I ran a 685mm wide bar I also ran a 110-120mm stem.
    True that.

    680mm is as wide as I'll go for the tree lined Midwest singletrack.

    I should also add that the HT length on the new XL is a full 15mm taller (.59") which, when combined with a 100mm fork, a small 2-3mm spacer and a 0 degree rise 120mm stem got the bars up to my preferred height.

    I don't have any profile shots of me riding the Karate Monkey (yet), but all my bikes are set up the same in terms of cockpit and the distance between bars and saddle - and all bikes are size XL 29"ers.

    So here's profile, or almost profile shots to give CoastieTX an idea of my 6'3", 35.5" measurements on the size XL big wheeled bikes...

    Tallboy XL (this was a rental/demo out in Santa Cruz and the bar was wider than 700mm with a shorter stem which I flipped negative and slammed the saddle all the way back on the rails)

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/7537161450/" title="2012-07-07 11.23.08 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7270/7537161450_7bbc2929cc_o.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="2012-07-07 11.23.08"></a>

    New JET 9 XL

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/7154767321/" title="Shredding the Maskenthine XC Race by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7088/7154767321_17f528e91c_o.jpg" width="715" height="473" alt="Shredding the Maskenthine XC Race"></a>

    Dos Niner XL

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/5905246856/" title="Wheelhouse Drops by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6029/5905246856_952e15dd2b_o.jpg" width="506" height="651" alt="Wheelhouse Drops"></a>

    Old JET 9 XL with 80mm fork before the frame got recalled

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/3706257825/" title="Bluff Riders Charge at Mt. Kato by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2455/3706257825_8d64675cde_z.jpg?zz=1" width="640" height="427" alt="Bluff Riders Charge at Mt. Kato"></a>

    Old Jet 9 XL with 80mm fork

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/3692222887/" title="ClosingThatGap by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3618/3692222887_18fd66270b_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="ClosingThatGap"></a>

    Here's what happens to me with a short stem and wide bars (this on my largest size XL - the Gary Fisher Sugar 293 which is a really long frame and wheel base in that size). My arms get "squashed" and a I feel too out of balance with wider bars and a short stem. Between that and nicking trees, I've got to stay at 660-680mm in width for XC riding and racing where I live and ride. My arms and hands tend to gravitate to the most natural position to keep me comfortable, and that sweet spot is 620-660mm for a natural feel with my shoulder width and arms. I have tried, though, to adapt to wider as well as narrower bars with various stem lengths.

    Sugar 293 size XL (short stem 80mm and 710mm bars)

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/2785202393/" title="TranquilityRoadCrossing by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2107/2785202393_a620ec9c9c_z.jpg?zz=1" width="640" height="426" alt="TranquilityRoadCrossing"></a>

    I just don't see or feel how I would be able to ride on a size L (unless it was a really long size L with a head tube length of 125-145mm)
    Last edited by BruceBrown; 12-28-2012 at 08:22 AM.

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    Thanks guys for all feedback on sizing.

    As much as I'd like to go with a L and have a more flickable bike, I've gone down that road before and it didn't work out. Included are a few pics of an old bike (Niner MCR9, size L with 120mm stem) that was eventually replaced. I seem to have a tendency to buy bikes I can't test ride first, and wanted a little reassurance on sizing before buying.

    How are the horizontal dropouts with disc brakes working out for you guys? Are you able to remove the rear wheel without touching the brake caliper, and what are you using to ensure the wheel goes back into the same position every time? Seems like some kind of hardware would be in order...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Let's see your KM builds-ninerfit1.jpg  

    Let's see your KM builds-ninerfit2.jpg  


  38. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoastieTX View Post
    Thanks guys for all feedback on sizing.

    As much as I'd like to go with a L and have a more flickable bike, I've gone down that road before and it didn't work out. Included are a few pics of an old bike (Niner MCR9, size L with 120mm stem) that was eventually replaced. I seem to have a tendency to buy bikes I can't test ride first, and wanted a little reassurance on sizing before buying.

    How are the horizontal dropouts with disc brakes working out for you guys? Are you able to remove the rear wheel without touching the brake caliper, and what are you using to ensure the wheel goes back into the same position every time? Seems like some kind of hardware would be in order...
    Holy SEATPOST Batman!!!

    The new disc brake mounts on the Karate Monkey over the early generation(s) removes all need to worry about rear wheel removal and brake caliper issues. What do we use to ensure the wheel goes back in the same spot? Tuggnut for me. Even if I don't get it in the exact same spot every time - it doesn't matter. It all works out fine.

  39. #639
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    That's funny, I think a lot of seat post looks great. Has me thinking a Large Niner now (I'm easily swayed)

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Holy SEATPOST Batman!!!

  40. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    That's funny, I think a lot of seat post looks great. Has me thinking a Large Niner now (I'm easily swayed)
    Granted, the Niner frames have more of a sloping TT which leads to more post showing than some other frames that have a more "classic" TT look and slope. CoastieTX makes that size L look tiny and he was right - IMO - to have moved on to a bigger frame. The size L MCR 9 has a 110mm head tube length, and the XL has a 130mm head tube length - which, IMO, is an excellent improvement for taller riders. The TT - or more importantly, the reach - is only about a 13-14mm difference (depending on which fork travel) which makes dialing in the cockpit very easy. The extra 63mm in seat tube length would help mitigate so much post showing which for taller guys (who are usually heavier) is a nice thing to make sure enough of the seatpost is in the frame to prevent any breakage of the frame - or the post. When comparing the Karate Monkey size XL, the wheelbase is 9mm shorter on the Surly XL than it is on the size L Niner MCR 9. So CoastieTX would absolutely retain the "flickable" component he mentioned and improve overall fit compared to the size L MCR 9 in the pictures.

    Taller riders? The good news for Surly and tall drinks of water is that they offer the Ogre in size XXL which has a 140mm head tube length (wish they would have gone to at least 145mm with that). Since the bike is the same as the Monkey geometry-wise, only with all the options to build it out with cantilever brakes, fenders, racks, etc... - it's a good option for taller riders to be considering rather than trying to make a size XL Karate Monkey fit. Good pictures here of a 6'5" rider on the size XXL Ogre. I'm 2" shorter than he is and really feel that with my leg length, arm length and height just about stretch the size XL KM to its limits. So it is really good to see Surly offer the next frame size up in XXL. Several companies are doing that now (Trek, Specialized, Ventana, Surly, Santa Cruz, etc...)...to take care of the tall crowd so they don't have to go custom.

    There are a lot of unique things that go into our fit (torso length, arm length, leg length, foot size, etc...) which leads to what frame will fit and work the best. And there are plenty of "tweeners" that sit ride on the edge of being able to make 2 sizes work. And some companies make a longer, larger size L than others - as well as a shorter, smaller size XL than others. Add in personal preference and feel on the bike. Add in the adjustment period to something new, or how long it actually might take somebody to dial in the best bar/stem, cleat position, saddle position - and it can take quite a while to really narrow down what is best for each individual.

    I chimed in so much in the recent portion of this thread simply because CoastieTX, at least on paper with the height and inseam, is about as close as it gets to my own height and inseam as it gets. That doesn't mean we end up on the same size bike, saddle height, stem length, bar width, etc... - but it's a good starting point for consideration.

    I do, for me at least, show a lot of post on my size XL road bike.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/7305517620/" title="P1010001 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7093/7305517620_1b98ecf014_z.jpg" width="640" height="431" alt="P1010001"></a>
    Last edited by BruceBrown; 12-28-2012 at 08:27 AM.

  41. #641
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    Thanks for that bit of info Bruce, did not realize they'd done an XXL in the Ogre. I may take a look at getting one as I've never quite felt the XL Monkey was big enough for my tastes, ETT is shorter than most other XLs I ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    ........................Taller riders? The good news for Surly and tall drinks of water is that they offer the Ogre in size XXL which has a 140mm head tube length (wish they would have gone to at least 145mm with that). Since the bike is the same as the Monkey geometry-wise, only with all the options to build it out with cantilever brakes, fenders, racks, etc... - it's a good option for taller riders to be considering rather than trying to make a size XL Karate Monkey fit. Good pictures here of a 6'5" rider on the size XXL Ogre. I'm 2" shorter than he is and really feel that with my leg length, arm length and height just about stretch the size XL KM to its limits. So it is really good to see Surly offer the next frame size up in XXL. Several companies are doing that now (Trek, Specialized, Ventana, Surly, Santa Cruz, etc...)...to take care of the tall crowd so they don't have to go custom.
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  42. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Thanks for that bit of info Bruce, did not realize they'd done an XXL in the Ogre. I may take a look at getting one as I've never quite felt the XL Monkey was big enough for my tastes, ETT is shorter than most other XLs I ride.
    True.

    Looks to me like a size XL Karate Monkey is just about 1/2 way between a Trek Rig size L and XL confirming that the KM size XL is a "small" XL compared to others. I just chose the Rig since it is a SS and many KM's are purpose built SS's as well. The Surly sizing is rretty close to the Salsa sizing as well - but that's no surprise since Salsa and Surly are under the same Quality Bicycle Products "roof".

    Since Surly does the Ogre in XXL, I have to assume it wouldn't take Surly much to also offer the KM in the same XXL size. Why they don't, I don't know? I'm sure there are some who would enjoy having the bigger frame option, but I guess Surly could also retort that the Ogre has the same exact geometry and comes in size XXL - so get an Ogre.

  43. #643
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    KM sS. Picked up off eBay for a winter beater all around suffer mt. bike. New, fully stock. Needs a brooks saddle. Let's see your KM builds-imageuploadedbytapatalk1356734706.719194.jpgLet's see your KM builds-imageuploadedbytapatalk1356734733.796006.jpgLet's see your KM builds-imageuploadedbytapatalk1356734776.217333.jpgLet's see your KM builds-imageuploadedbytapatalk1356734808.167168.jpg
    My other geared km somewhere in fort ord Let's see your KM builds-imageuploadedbytapatalk1356734873.659535.jpg.

  44. #644
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    nice! what size frame is that? other than the wheelset, what have you changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by haloblue View Post
    2013 KM.

    King hubs & Stan's added the Enve bars as well. Next will be a carbon seat post, and better brakes.

    The new wheel set completely changed the bike. Night & day.

    Attachment 739130
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  45. #645
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    Sorry to hi-jack this thread, but I need some advice with regard to which 3x10 (or 3x9) drivetrain for the 2013 KM I'm building for the gf. I'm familiar with SRAM mainly, but not FDs that need to be clamped to the 28.6mm seatpost. Shimano seems to suit the KM measurements better I think, but I defer to your advice.

    Cost is an issue also. She won't pay for a $300 crank!

    Thanks,

    Neil
    Current Stable: 2011 Niner EMD, 2011 Vassago Jabba

  46. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niner_Boy View Post
    Sorry to hi-jack this thread, but I need some advice with regard to which 3x10 (or 3x9) drivetrain for the 2013 KM I'm building for the gf. I'm familiar with SRAM mainly, but not FDs that need to be clamped to the 28.6mm seatpost. Shimano seems to suit the KM measurements better I think, but I defer to your advice.

    Cost is an issue also. She won't pay for a $300 crank!

    Thanks,

    Neil
    i might not be reading your question right, but- something that i personally ran into with my KM: i used a 10 speed SramX7 front der on my set up. because most of the mechanics of this derailleur are oriented towards the rear tire, i had clearance problems and wasnt able to push my back wheel as far forward in the dropouts as i would have liked. Surly does address this on their site if that isnt an issue, most derailleurs are now made at 34.9mm clamp size, and meant to be shimmed down, which is what i ended up doing.

  47. #647
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    I'd consider maybe a direct mount front derailleur with a ProblemSolvers adaptor.

  48. #648
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    My Monkey frame arrived and I've assembled as much as I can without the headset, chain and cables & housing. Pics will soon follow

    EDIT: here she is, still need to trim the cables and housing a bit.

    Last edited by JeepDave; 01-11-2013 at 10:41 PM.

  49. #649
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    The more I look through this thread the more I tell myself that I need to sell all my bikes and buy one of these.

  50. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by UCF Eric View Post
    The more I look through this thread the more I tell myself that I need to sell all my bikes and buy one of these.
    YOU WONT REGRET IT!

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