Karate Monkey Tuggnut (1 or 2 of them) and best QR skewer for success...
Yes, I have searched and read plenty on the rear wheel run as a SS to keep it in place. I've got one Tuggnut on the drive side which "was" working fine. However, yesterday for the first time ever on a heavy climbing and descending ride (lots of braking), the rear wheel kept slipping. It would slip on climbs. I would stop and reset it and then it would slip the other way under heavy braking. I've ridden on this same loop before with no issues, so why yesterday it decided to act up - I don't know.
Bike is outfitted like this...
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8250344222/" title="P1010001 2 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8062/8250344222_866202630a_z.jpg" width="640" height="388" alt="P1010001 2"></a>
Granted, the rear QR skewer on it at the moment is well known for not being a great one (American Classic). However, it was sitting in the parts bin and as I said - has been problem free up until now. So before I start the game of getting a better skewer or another option - post up what has worked best for you.
My options (if I stay with the same rear I9 Enduro wheel) are to get a 2nd Tuggnut for the non-drive side; get a better quality rear QR skewer; convert my Industry Nine rear hub axle to a 10mm thru axle so I could use a bolt on or RWS skewer; or try and slam the wheel all the way forward and get the chain at the right length for that.
As I said, post up what works for you or if there are other options I need to know about (barring getting a bolt through rear hub).
I'll check the Tuggnut side to see if the chain has stretched and the right side is what might be causing the problem (although, that doesn't sound like it should do anything to the non-drive side as the Tuggnut should not move regardless of the chain).
I tried this, and I found that most skewers are not long enough to run two tuggnuts on the rear wheel. In the interest of keeping with your original request, I've been told that the Shimano XTR 175mm skewers are the best that you can get, and apparently someone with a Rohloff fitted to an Ogre was using one just fine (although I doubt he was pounding the pedals as hard as a SS rider). Each tuggnut adds 5mm to the skewer length due to the width of the Tuggnut + washer, and realistically you're right on the limit with 1 tuggnut, so I'd say you probably need a 180mm or above skewer for it to sit nicely without running out of thread. If you find a longer skewer, let me know because I'd be interested in that.
I have something like this on my front wheel (Son28 hub):
Delta Axlerodz Bolt On Skewers 69G, Cromo Axle,SS Spring 5mm
I've asked my LBS to come up with a similar skewer when I get my Rohloff, and plan not to use tuggnuts if I can avoid it.
Another option you can Surly Ultra New hubs come with their ultra new axle kit, which can be purchased but require a 5mm Allen key instead of a QR system:
Ultra New Hub Axles | Parts | Surly Bikes
Convert the axle to take the Surly ultra new axle system, and you can run it with bolts which will hold it in place, OR a skewer if you find one that works later. 5mm allen keys are pretty light. Not quite the same as the RWS system
Half links to keep the chain tension + monkey nuts could help prevent you from having to slam the wheel all the way forward.
IMO this is the biggest failing of the dropouts used by Surly. I'd love it if they made the frame such that you could use a system similar to my CX bike.
You're overthinking this.
The American Classic skewer is the problem. Get a Shimano skewer (any variety - I have XT), crank it down hard, and your problems will go away.
That's probably right.
Originally Posted by keevohn
I think I've got one I can part out from another bike in the garage. I'll give that a try.
I fixed a similar problem with a secondhand XT Shimano skewer. The cam-action means you can crank it down so much harder without excessive force. The Salsa skewer I was using always moved eventually even though it was done up so hard it was difficult (painful without gloves) to loosen it!
Of course the singlespeed wheel on the back of Pugsley has never moved (Surly bolt-on hub).
Let us know how it works. I've found that my Shimano QRs slip in this sort of setup.
I run a 32x20, which leaves my chain just a bit loose when the wheel is slammed forward, but so for has proven OK.
Originally Posted by BruceBrown
I've gotten away with the Tugnutt and American Classic QR skewer up to this point because I was running V-Brakes until my recent switch. The braking forces on the non-drive side are enough now to cause slippage (something a Tugnutt on that side would not help). I didn't experience any slippage with pedal force before, so it's quite possible the braking forces have loosened up things enough for it to slip in both directions now. Back when I ran gears, I had the Monkey Nuts which at least prevented forward slip with the Salsa Skewer. I don't recall getting rearward slide using disc brakes back when I last used disc brakes on my Monkey frame in 2003-4. But at my age, that's way too far back to remember little details like that.
Originally Posted by seat_boy
Regardless, the AC skewers are well known for being not worthy - which is why they have been sitting unused in my parts bin for about 6 years.
I will experiment with whatever skewers I have to see if I can solve it that way (Shimano, Salsa, Mavic, Specialized, etc...). If not - on to other options.
My solution has been one Tuggnut on the drive side and Shimano skewers front/rear. I had slipping up front on hard braking as well. Haven't had an issue since I went to Shimano skewers!
Too busy looking good
I had the exact same problem. I run two tuggnuts on my Surly 1x1 and found that a standard QR was just barely long enough to get the threads to engage. I constantly expected it to strip. From another thread here on MTBR, I read that Halo Porkies skewers were recommended for this problem. I got 'em and the rear QR is indeed the perfect length for a Surly with 2 tuggnuts.
Halo Porkies - BikeRadar
Those look good and I love the name. I've also read that a tandem skewer with the extra length is a possibility.
Originally Posted by HOser
That being said, I swapped out to a Bontrager QR skewer that I had. It slipped as well, but not as bad as the American Classic. Which led to the next experiment/adjustment. I think when installing the rear wheel again as I switched from V-brakes to the disc brakes a few weeks ago, I may have over-tightened the Tuggnut itself and gone too far on the tight side of the equation of finding the "happy medium of the chain not being too tight or too loose". That would explain why I didn't have any trouble with the American Classic before when the bike was set up with V-brakes.
I loosened the tension of the chain up a bit, cranked down the Bontrager rear skewer and it seemed to hold on my short neighborhood rides yesterday and today. However, those rides didn't involve steep climbing and steep descending - so I will have to try that out soon to see if that was the culprit.
So - it's starting to appear that this issue is operator error related.
You can see in the picture, there is no slack in that chain as I have it pulled so tight.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8232853112/" title="KMDisc by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8232853112_c054f27804_c.jpg" width="800" height="544" alt="KMDisc"></a>
If I go back and compare that picture to other pictures where I was not experiencing any slip/slide in the rear of the tuggnutt/skewer, I see a bit of slack in the chain compared to the above picture. Not real easy to see, but trust me - the chain was a bit too tight in the above picture compared to the below picture.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/5084081098/" title="KM in the fall by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4091/5084081098_8bf9aba63b_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="KM in the fall"></a>
I haven't had an issue with running a Surly tugnut on the drive side with a Hope QR skewer. I wanted to use a tugnut on the non drive side but as you've found out, most rear skewers are too short including the Hope.
I had bad luck with SRAM QR skewers and no better luck with a bolt on rear skewer. I was not willing to pay the price for Surly Tugnuts, so I bought a couple chain tensioners ($8) and Surly QR adapters (also $8? don't remember for sure).
I like this solution because it is easy to set the alignment of the rear wheel within the frame by measuring the protrusion of the bolt on the tensioners on each side. This keeps the rotor running true to the caliper. Plus, the wheel can be taken on and off and the same position can be achieved each time.
Those look pretty cool!
Originally Posted by thomasbien
Okay, so I had to investigate the actual meaning of "older style" of Shimano QR Skewer.
Went to the late and great Uncle Sheldon Brown's site to look up skewer.
According to him, the newer style that we are all used to having is called the exposed cam which is cheaper to manufacture, is lighter and probably what became standard before the move to all the TA gizmos front and rear.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8267449720/" title="skewer-external by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8070/8267449720_32b36289f7.jpg" width="300" height="180" alt="skewer-external"></a>
That above style certainly represents just about every skewer I've got in the garage on all of my bikes - including the weaksauce American Classic skewers I've been running on my Karate Monkey for a couple of years. They worked seemingly fine with the V-brake set up, but going to discs recently resulted in things not jiving as outlined in the above posts. The Bontrager skewer I swapped out to the other day is also the exposed cam version - so that's not good enough according to everyone's suggestion for the KM's rear horizontal dropouts.
Great suggestions for the Shimano skewers from keevohn and jesusburger. I actually have two pairs of those critters in the garage: one silver pair on an old set of Shimano XT hub wheels on my wife's 1989 Trek 820 Antelope, and one black pair on a set of recumbent wheels on my wife's Bachetta recumbent. Being that I just had to have black for my coordinated build colors, I figured the vertical drop out on the rear of the Bachetta and the lawyer lipped fork on that creature of a "bike" would do just fine with the American Classic skewers (and the wife would never know, right?). So I swapped out the pair this morning to the older Shimano version.
The older version of skewer is heavier, has more clamping force and is known as being called an enclosed cam skewer.
Looks like this...
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8267449698/" title="skewer-internal by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/8267449698_366a2de476.jpg" width="300" height="180" alt="skewer-internal"></a>
I tinkered with the chain tension to get it to the point where it has about a full inch of slack (1/2" up and 1/2" down). I tightened things up gnarly tight and gave it the neighborhood test. Seems good to go.
Now I'm heading out for a 100 minute hill fest on the course that caused me to post this thread in the first place due to the climbs and steep descents (braking forces) causing the rear wheel to slip with the new disc brake set up I added a few weeks ago. I'll report back on how my enclosed cam skewer held up in the rear of the KM.
Yeah, those enclosed cam types were the ones that still gave me issues. I was hopeful about them as well...
bruce same problem here after going to disk from rim brakes. the dt skewer did the trick for me. i swapped it from another SS i have that does not need it due to it being a converted geared frame.
anyone know how i would size the skewer to my rear hub if running a 1x10 on the karate monkey?
A KM uses a pretty standard rear hub for 135mm spacing. So 168-175mm would do the trick pretty well. An example skewer is the Shimano XTR skewer is 168mm long, but also comes in a 173mm long version. A standard Tuggnut is 5mm in width, so one would hope to run the longer skewer if you're planning to use Tuggnuts. If you're using Surly Monkey Nuts the shorter skewer is probably OK.
Originally Posted by mtbzombiekiller
Most hubs run pretty standard size diameter skewers too. The only exception to this I'm ware of are DT Swiss hubs, but there's probably others out there.
Last edited by hunter006; 12-13-2012 at 09:04 PM.
Change is complete. I moved everything over to a brand new Stretchpants Black Size XL Karate Monkey. First ride is in 15 minutes.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8272304179/" title="BlackKM by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8351/8272304179_e079ac7786_c.jpg" width="800" height="534" alt="BlackKM"></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8272303459/" title="StrecthpantsKM by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8060/8272303459_1ea849f012_c.jpg" width="800" height="496" alt="StrecthpantsKM"></a>
The original Campstove Green size XL frame and fork is for sale here.
I think I just drooled a little.
How do you like the newer K.M.?
Originally Posted by BruceBrown
'10 SURLY 1x1 (rigid SS)
'13 SURLY Ogre (rigid SS)
'13 SURLY Troll (rigid 2x10)
I like it a lot. Well, for the few days I was able to ride it that is. A huge blizzard hit a few days after I got it and has kept the trails covered for the most part which has put a damper on my dirt riding.
Originally Posted by Gritter
We are in the middle of winter and due to snow (or yo-yo temperatures of too warm to ride because everything is muddy, or too cold because it is -4 with a -20 wind chill) dirt has not been available to me like I would have hoped. So I've been on the trainer in the basement during January building base for the upcoming XC race season.
I do take it on dog walks in the morning and evening in the neighborhood, but that's not riding.