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  1. #1
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    Anybody trade in their LHT for an Ogre (or Troll)?

    I'm considering swapping the parts off of my LHT to an Ogre frame. I love everything about my LHT - the way it handles, how it rides, even the color. But I"m looking for bigger tire clearance and I think moving to a mountain bike geometry would be better for how I'm actually using the bike. But I'm wondering what the trade-offs are. The Ogre frame is stiffer and heavier, but is that noticable riding around town? Is the horizontal dropout that much of a PITA when running gears? Something else I'm not thinking about? I'd welcome some insite from anybody with experience on both bikes. Thanks.
    Surly Cross Check: fat tire roadie
    Surly LHT: Kid hauler
    On One Inbred: SS 26er

  2. #2
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    Yes, I replaced an LHT with an Ogre, for the disc brakes and tire clearance. The frame is a bit stiffer, and the dropouts are not ideal for geared use, but the tradeoffs were worth it. I now own a Troll for the same duties, and like it even better than the Ogre -- it is what my 26" LHT dreamed it could be -- a BAMF tank.

    I have used a sweep bar on all 3 bikes. I don't know if I'd go the Ogre/Troll route with a drop bar -- I guess it would depend on sizing.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    Yes, I replaced an LHT with an Ogre, for the disc brakes and tire clearance. The frame is a bit stiffer, and the dropouts are not ideal for geared use, but the tradeoffs were worth it. I now own a Troll for the same duties, and like it even better than the Ogre -- it is what my 26" LHT dreamed it could be -- a BAMF tank.

    I have used a sweep bar on all 3 bikes. I don't know if I'd go the Ogre/Troll route with a drop bar -- I guess it would depend on sizing.
    What is it about the Troll that you like better than the Ogre?
    Surly Cross Check: fat tire roadie
    Surly LHT: Kid hauler
    On One Inbred: SS 26er

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolandjd View Post
    What is it about the Troll that you like better than the Ogre?
    Well, I still have the Ogre. But it's doing off-road duty.

    Obviously they are the about the same bike with the difference being wheel size. I prefer the 26" wheels for my purposes, which are commuting, getting around town, going bike camping, path rides, and trailer pulling. The main reason is the lower center-of-gravity for carrying panniers, pulling the trailer, and eventually (and especially) for the Yepp seat I'll be mounting on the rack in the spring. Also, my XL Troll fits on the bus racks around here, and my XL Ogre, due to the combination of wheelbase and wheel diameter, did not. This may seem trivial, but is an essential feature for me for an around-town bike. I also think the smaller wheels make the bike feel a bit more nimble, which is nice for dropping curbs and dodging potholes.

    Even for touring with a heavy load, I'd choose the Troll over the LHT. For touring with a light load, I'd take my Vaya. But that's what you have your Cross Check for.

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    Yes, that's what the Cross Check is for. In fact, that's part of my [first world] problem - the Cross Check pretty much usurped the Trucker as my main roadish road.

    Well, thanks for your thoughts. Glad you were satisified with the transition. I thought about getting a Troll when I bought my On One. The Inbred was just such a screaming deal, I went with it instead. But my son is growing too fast and I'm thinking of passing on the Inbred to him, which would leave me mountain bike-less. Unless, turned the LHT into an Ogre. And I assume the Ogre can handle all the around town and kid trailer pulling tasks the LHT currently does, while also serving as a capable trail bike.
    Surly Cross Check: fat tire roadie
    Surly LHT: Kid hauler
    On One Inbred: SS 26er

  6. #6
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    Check out this post: Surly ECR

    And this one too: What do you think is the truly appropriate number of bikes to own?

    I'll post a recent pic of my Troll later.

  7. #7
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    I've said this before, I'll say it again, if I could have only one bike it would be my LHT. It's such a great versatile bike. That said, I'm really happy and fortunate to have a nice quiver (Big Dummy, SS beater CC that is almost 8yrs old, a Rivendell and a custom rando bike) although there is some overlap. I was contemplating adding an Ogre to my quiver as I don't have a mountain bike and thought it would make a nice all purpose/all road bike, sorta like Mattbryant2's Troll. Then I realized that the ECR can do everything the Ogre can do AND take 29+ tires so I'm thinking that's what I'll go with.

    I'm thinking that later this year I might part ways with my Riv and the rando bike as neither has seen much use. For whatever reason, when I want to go for a road ride, I reach for my LHT...
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolandjd View Post
    But I"m looking for bigger tire clearance and I think moving to a mountain bike geometry would be better for how I'm actually using the bike...
    Well, I think that is your answer. I think you will cover a broader spectrum with an Ogre paired with your CC than with a LHT. Also, don't forget a Pug can be set up with 29/29+ tires and many do tours on it. Although I am getting almost sick of everyone jumping on the fat-wagon, if I were building an all-arounder MTB today, it would probably be a fattie (most likely a Salsa Mukluk).

  9. #9
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    Here's the Troll. Rides like a ****in' Cadillac.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Anybody trade in their LHT for an Ogre (or Troll)?-img_3319.jpg  


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    Here's the Troll. Rides like a ****in' Cadillac.
    I like the set up on the bike. The seat and bars are so high it almost looks like it's a size too small for you. Is it my imagination?
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

  11. #11
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    Looks like it's the 22" Troll, though, as big as they go.

    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    I like the set up on the bike. The seat and bars are so high it almost looks like it's a size too small for you. Is it my imagination?
    WTB: Whaddya got in an XL steel 29er frame?

  12. #12
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    BTW, neither an Ogre or Troll has a stiffer frame than the LHT. They are both noodles in comparison to the LHT. Just sayin.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by phsycle View Post
    Well, I think that is your answer. I think you will cover a broader spectrum with an Ogre paired with your CC than with a LHT. Also, don't forget a Pug can be set up with 29/29+ tires and many do tours on it. Although I am getting almost sick of everyone jumping on the fat-wagon, if I were building an all-arounder MTB today, it would probably be a fattie (most likely a Salsa Mukluk).
    Thanks. Yeah, I guess I do have my answer. Its cathartic write down these things that are knawing at my brain. But I still have nagging doubts, maybe because I get overly attached to bikes.

    I'll barely have the budget to build up an Ogre, even with used parts from the LHT. Building up a fat bike is just not in the realm of the possible right now. But I'd love to try one sometime. I don't need a snow bike, but I like the idea of a fatbike/29+ in leui of suspension for trail riding. It seems that opinions on fat bikes are very binary - people either love them or hate them. I'll be interested to see where things are at when the hoopla dies down, particularly 29+.
    Surly Cross Check: fat tire roadie
    Surly LHT: Kid hauler
    On One Inbred: SS 26er

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddle Up View Post
    BTW, neither an Ogre or Troll has a stiffer frame than the LHT. They are both noodles in comparison to the LHT. Just sayin.
    Really!? That's first I've heard anyone say that. I thought the Ogre/KM had thicker tubing that the LHT?
    Surly Cross Check: fat tire roadie
    Surly LHT: Kid hauler
    On One Inbred: SS 26er

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2:
    I like the set up on the bike. The seat and bars are so high it almost looks like it's a size too small for you. Is it my imagination?

    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    Looks like it's the 22" Troll, though, as big as they go.
    Yes, it's an XL. The handlebar and saddle are high, but the length is right with a 100mm stem, so I don't think I'd go to a bigger size if one was available. It might look a little funny, but there are no functional limitations, and it rides great.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    Here's the Troll. Rides like a ****in' Cadillac.
    Hi Matt. That photo of your Troll cracked me up because you appear to be a long-legged 6' 6" freak like myself and it reminded me so much of my "around town" bike. It's an old MTB that is way too small for me but is so practical for the reasons you touched on. With a Pugsley and a MonsterCross-Check I'm a total convert to big wheels for off-road, but around town those 26" hoops with fat rubber totally rock. It's also my only bike with a granny-gear which my knees appreciate when hauling a trailer. So nimble for a big bike and loaded-up with silly amounts of cargo is still very manageable.
    I've been looking at swapping-out the horrible aluminium frame for a 26" LHT (or buying a complete) but now you've got me thinking a Troll would be a good option - I could upgrade to cable-discs a a later date.
    - Antoine

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  17. #17
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    I definitely wouldn't do the swap if you are going to use drop bars. I put drop bars on my Karate Monkey and did not like what it did to the handling. Also, contrary to what some others say, the rear drop outs on the Troll/Ogre are a pain in the butt. Especially if you run fenders. I currently have a Troll and I love it for commuting but have not tried to tour on it. I like it better than the Karate Monkey I used to have - even though my mountain bikes are all 29ers, I actually prefer the little wheels for urban riding.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolandjd View Post
    Really!? That's first I've heard anyone say that. I thought the Ogre/KM had thicker tubing that the LHT?
    According to whichever dude at Surly I corresponded with via email about which I'd want for my purposes,they do and are stiffer than an LHT...I figure they probably know more than anyone else (myself included) on the subject,so....
    '11 Origin 8 700CX
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  19. #19
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    The LHT uses the largest, stiffest tubes Surly makes. Try riding an LHT behind a Troll on a mountain trail, it will rattle the teeth out of your mouth. It's stiff. You would not be able to comfortably ride a Troll or Ogre off road if it was as stiff as the LHT.

    A larger diamter tube tube can be thinner walled and be stiffer. Both my LHT and Troll are my daily goto bikes, I ride the same terrain everyday, I play musical wheelsets on them all the time. Troll rides like a dream all the time, the LHT rides as stiff as a board until it's loaded up. Anyway, I can't imagine being without either one of them, trading one for the other is like...., well I just can't imagine....

  20. #20
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    I can't comment on the relative stiffness of the LHT versus other bikes but I just got it from Surly this week that the Ogre and KM use different tubesets, with the Ogre's being thicker and more overbuilt than the KM. I know many of us think of the Ogre/KM interchangeably but there are subtle differences besides the braze-ons.

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    ... and I was told the opposite by Surly -- that the tube sets are the same, with the only difference besides the braze-ons/dropouts being the fork.

  22. #22
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    I was told something that matches what Corwin said about--the Ogre has thicker walled, larger tubes. For instance, they said their 22" Ogre spec is:

    TT: diameter 31.8mm double butted CR-MO, thickness 1/.7/.9 oval <33.8/29.8> , top to head tube gusset 1.2mm thick steel.
    DT: diameter 38.1mm double butted CR-MO, thickness 1/.7/.9 oval <44.2/32> , down to head tube gusset 1.2mm thick steel.

    I don't have a spec for the KM's tubes, but I think the top tube is 28.6mm OD?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    ... and I was told the opposite by Surly -- that the tube sets are the same, with the only difference besides the braze-ons/dropouts being the fork.
    WTB: Whaddya got in an XL steel 29er frame?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2 View Post
    ... and I was told the opposite by Surly -- that the tube sets are the same, with the only difference besides the braze-ons/dropouts being the fork.
    Interesting. Ben, who I communicated with, emphasized that the Ogre's tubing reflects the needs of a touring bike while the KM's tubing reflects the needs of a trail bike. He also said the differences were hardly noticeable in the ride and that one is a good representation of the other.

    To the OP, I'm considering a similar change. I have a Handsome Devil instead of an LHT but I don't think there is a ton of difference. In fact, I recently test rode a 26" LHT and blindfolded I couldn't have distinguished it from my Devil.

    I've gotten bored with the local MUPS and I've never enjoyed riding long distances on the road so my interests have switched over to more all-terrain riding. Back in the 90's I used to ride a Trek Multitrack on the dirt/gravel roads around the town where I lived but doing that on my Devil is a scary proposition. I attribute this to the Trek having MTB geometry (very similar to a Troll/KM/Ogre) while the Devil has road bike geometry.

    I've thought about just building that old Multitrack back up but by the time I did everything I want to it, I would be within a couple of hundred dollars of just buying a new frame. The Ogre will provide much more tire clearance, which is a huge for me and besides, the Ogre just rides so damn nice!!!

    I have literally been banging my head against the wall trying to decide from the followoing:

    1) Buy an Ogre frameset
    2) Buy a Troll frameset
    3) Buy the upcoming Camargue frameset from Velo-Orange
    4) Build up an old 1995 Trek 820 I picked up at a pawn shop
    5) Build up my old 1995 Trek 730
    6) Buy a 26" LHT frameset

    I was fortunate to find an LBS within driving distance that keeps a few Surlys on the floor. I first road the KM and thought it was nice, I went back and rode the Troll and it was awesome. I went back and rode the 26" LHT and it was not what I'm looking for. I rode the Troll on the same visit and was impressed once again. At this point I was leaning strongly toward the Troll but I feel like practically speaking, 700c wheels are a better choice (also because I have a set of new custom-built 700c wheels and my 26" wheels are 20 years old). This weekend I went back to the LBS and gave the KM another try and I'm 95% sold on the Ogre. If I had the funds that day I would have ordered the frameset but I need to sell a few things first. My only fear is that they don't run out of black 18" Ogre framesets. There were no 18" KM's available from Surly when the LBS checked.

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    Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the continued interest in this thread. I haven't pulled the trigger yet on the Ogre frame, but I'm fairly convinced that when finances allow, I should do it.

    My understanding was that the Ogre and KM had the same frame tubesets, although the forks were different. Surly used to list the frame weights on the website, and I could sware that the Ogre and KM frames were the same weight. But I don't see that info listed anymore. I'll bet its the new KM frame with the 44mm headtube, replaceable dropout, and the weird clearcoat paintjob that has the different tubes than Ogre. It looks like the trend has been to continue to differenciate KM and Ogre.

    @ Conrwin: That's funny, the VO Camargue is on my radar screen too. However, its geometry is very similar to the LHT, albeit with bigger tire clearance. I'm looking for something more mountain biky, so I don't think that's going to work. The Camargue reminds me a lot of the Gen 1 Fargo, but with cantilever brakes and prettier frame details. Kind of a poor man's Rivendell Bombadil. Good luck sorting out your options. Rim brake-compatible 29er frames sure are a rare breed.
    Surly Cross Check: fat tire roadie
    Surly LHT: Kid hauler
    On One Inbred: SS 26er

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolandjd View Post
    Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the continued interest in this thread. I haven't pulled the trigger yet on the Ogre frame, but I'm fairly convinced that when finances allow, I should do it.

    My understanding was that the Ogre and KM had the same frame tubesets, although the forks were different. Surly used to list the frame weights on the website, and I could sware that the Ogre and KM frames were the same weight. But I don't see that info listed anymore. I'll bet its the new KM frame with the 44mm headtube, replaceable dropout, and the weird clearcoat paintjob that has the different tubes than Ogre. It looks like the trend has been to continue to differenciate KM and Ogre.

    @ Conrwin: That's funny, the VO Camargue is on my radar screen too. However, its geometry is very similar to the LHT, albeit with bigger tire clearance. I'm looking for something more mountain biky, so I don't think that's going to work. The Camargue reminds me a lot of the Gen 1 Fargo, but with cantilever brakes and prettier frame details. Kind of a poor man's Rivendell Bombadil. Good luck sorting out your options. Rim brake-compatible 29er frames sure are a rare breed.

    I think you'll love the Ogre. Both the Karate Monkey and the Troll I rode were an absolute blast to ride. I agree with you on wanting a bike that is more MTB than road. Both Surlys are the most stable feeling bikes I've ever ridden yet they are also agile.

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