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Endorphin thoughts

9K views 82 replies 24 participants last post by  Dude! 
#1 · (Edited)
The Endorphin is exactly as stated a trail bike with an aggressive geometry to provide confidence and stability. It is meant for long rides and pedaling fast.

I built the Endorphin more on the aggressive side. Complete build weighs 29.9lbs, note this is probably the upper extreme for most Endorphin builds (at least it should be). I have the new 2013 Fox Float 160 RC2. I am waiting for the parts to reduce the travel to 150mm. At 160mm, the front end is 66 degrees. It will be 66.5 at 150mm. The bike actually feels good with the 160mm on it now – a little flop but nothing overly bad.

Like the Podium, the new design is well executed and updated with the Noel’s latest improvements.

I swapped the Fox CTD out for a PUSH Monarch RT3 – much better control throughout its stroke.

As said, the Endorphin is meant for pedaling. You can feel the efficiency and lets you ride one cog smaller. I find it different than my current and previous Knolly bikes. In general, the Knolly suspension is described as active and on technical climbs it caterpillars up. The Endorphin is not as active and a bit harsher, this is a trade-off for speed. There is still suspension, but it is no Delirium, which is to be expected. However, the geometry lets you rail trails. I find the shorter chainstays hook up well in the corners. The improvement in pedaling – gives you a bit more snap and input of energy.

My Endorphin build is almost the same as my Delirium. My Delirium with air shock and air fork weighs 33.9 lbs.

With similar builds, geometry – one could think that these bikes would feel similarly. They are different bikes! As recommended, the Endorphin should be built as trail bike. I definitely over built mine. However, with lighter build, I am not sure if I would like it as much. It is something that I need to consider.

The Endorphin is lighter and more agile owing to the weight reduction, and the extra snap at the pedals – you start looking for features in the trail to hop off.

Recently, owing to weather and available free time, I have been riding trails close to my house with both the Delirium and Endorphin, which are rolling singletrack that require a fast pace. They are fun and are the primary reason for the Endorphin. Farther up the road in Santa Cruz the trails are more aggressive with long climbs and faster descents, which are more Delirium centric.

This is sort of unique to test different frames with relatively similar builds.
I guess the first question, what is the difference between two bikes, one with a pedal platform in the shock and one with platform designed into the suspension?

****** a few months ago I got the PUSH Monarch air shock for the Delirium. Dominic had been ridden his PUSH Monarch and loving it. For a long time I wanted to try an air shock on the Delirium. I was surprised by the result – it is a much better pedaler, but can still handle abuse. It rides a bit higher in its travel (similar to the Fox Float), but when aimed downhill just works very nicely. Yes, it can’t handle the rougher rocky sections as well as a coil, but it isn’t bad. I am not sure it if is the long travel nature of the bike, the suspension characteristics, or the custom-tune, but the end result is awesome. I love riding the Delirium in this mode. I would ride this bike in this mode for most trails anywhere.

We recently did a shuttle trip to Santa Barbara and Dom and I converted our Delirium to coil-mode (coil rear and Marz 66 up front). The Deliriums ruled these trails in this mode. However, when we got back and switched back to air mode – we both commented on how capable the Delirium is in the air setup.

I ride the Delirium as my primary bike. It fits me perfectly.

Surprisingly, I don’t find the air-mode Delirium to loose too much ground to the Endorphin with respect to pedaling. Even though the Endorphin pedals faster and you can feel the acceleration relative to the Delirium, the Delirium pedals very well. Trust me, I am truly shocked by this finding.

Now, turn the bikes downhill and it is not even a fair contest. The Endorphin can handle it, but the Delirium is just way too good in this realm.

In summary, the Endorphin is a rocket with great geometry that lets you rail trails, but it is a harsher ride.
 

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#6 ·
This is from memory...I have had a number of bikes since demoing the Endorphin.

The old Endorphin was more of an all mountain bike. It was heavier and very planted, plush, pedaled okay. The reason that I didn't go for it - I felt that your DT pedaled better and provided a lot more confidence. It was time for me to step up to a big bike.

The new Endorphin is firmly in the trail bike category and differs from the original Endorphin. There is a lot of gray with bike categories (XC, trail, AM, FR, DH). If you prefer more aggressive geometry for a small bike, the new Endorphin is it. It is fast and stable for a trail bike. The new Endorphin has one of the longest wheelbases on the market, and shortish chainstays. I like this geometry.

The wheelbase for most trail bikes for a medium frame are around 44 inches. The new Endorphin is 45 inches. This is not overly long for AM bikes. So you are getting AM geometry in a trail bike form.
 
#9 ·
Thanks dude for the report. I've been waiting for your view as I know what I'm feeling on the bike but not always good at transfering that in words.
I got the chilly to be my delirium in "light" mode. CCDB air light wheels and air fork. Well the air fork got replace with a Marz 55 ti but it still comes in right at 30 lbs. I had many miles on my delirium in air mode as well and like you, found it incredibly capable and I feel the chilly is extremely close to that set up.
Now going back and forth between chilly and Endo, I thought it was me being out of shape but the Endo feels sluggish. Don't get me wrong, it's fast but it demands that your on the pedals and hammering compared to the chilly where yes it's slower but it feels as if the bike is doing the work for you. It's almost like there is stored energy in the suspension that catapults you forward on the trail. Yesterday, I rolled into a super chunky area and came to a track stand with a rock in front of my front tire and I thought for sure I was putting a foot down but I let off the brakes and magically rolled over the rock as if someone gave me a push.
Also my Endo is wicked light (24 lbs) but when I get on the chilly I don't notice the increased weight that much. The more I go back and forth, the more I think the chilly is pure magical. But I think it just fit what I like to ride and my style of riding. In contrast, I'm sure when the snow melts and I'm riding my local buffed out trails I'll be on the Endo more.
Cheers
 
#12 ·
Jamie... I know you know this but I will say it anyway. You could shave 3+ pounds off that bike by going with some lighter (but just as tough) components. Like you said cranks, carbon race face or XO (I know you arent a big SRAM fan), carbon bars, lighter saddle, lighter stem, those big tires arent doing you any favors in the weight department, and dare I say it, maybe a Fox 34? I know you like the components that you ride and they make you feel comfortable but there is a plethora of lighter stuff out there that works just as good. If you sell that kidney you could totally afford a bunch of carbon bling.
 
#13 ·
Thanks - much appreciated. Yeah I am considering some of this. Tires are first on the list. Most of the parts are carry-over. I am not in the mode to spend any more money on bikes at the moment. Between a new Podium and a new Endorphin and financial losses in selling stuff the previous frames and parts- I am tapped out. This will give me time to ride more and consider my next move.

Fox 34 - weren't you the one that said the weight difference didn't just the the 34 over the 36
 
#16 ·
Sizing

Dude thanks for the report. I am seriously considering getting an Endo to compliment my Delirium. Could you compare sizing between your Endo and Delirium?

I am stuck in between a medium and large. I had a medium Delirium that hurt my knees when pedaling a lot. Switched it to a large and the pedaling is better but I liked going down hill better on the medium. The endo has a bit longer ETT and a steeper seat angle, I might be able to squeeze into a medium.

Thanks.
 
#20 ·
Dude thanks for the report. I am seriously considering getting an Endo to compliment my Delirium. Could you compare sizing between your Endo and Delirium?

I am stuck in between a medium and large. I had a medium Delirium that hurt my knees when pedaling a lot. Switched it to a large and the pedaling is better but I liked going down hill better on the medium. The endo has a bit longer ETT and a steeper seat angle, I might be able to squeeze into a medium.

Thanks.
I am a tad over 5' 8" with shorter legs and longer torso. Initially the medium Delirium felt a little short to me in the cockpit, but now I think it is perfect. You are more stretched out on the Endorphin and I notice it.

On the Delirium, I have the saddle pushed back. On the Endorphin, the saddle is pushed more forward. Owing to this, when I drop the saddle and I am in a turning position, my knees don't hit the saddle on the Delirium. My knees do hit the saddle on the Endorphin, I need to adjust the saddle position a little a bit or my turning position, because it throws me off a little bit in turns.

In general, switching between Endorphin and Delirium is effortless. I always had a learning curve switching between the Blur TRC and the Delirium.
 
#26 ·
As for sluggish, I think part of it is that I have a 34 tooth ring so I am finding that I'm in a slightly bigger gear coming out of slower sections. Much bigger difference then a 32 then I realized.

And dude, About the monarch vs. Ctd, does that monarch really aloe you to pump the bike more because that is exactly what I finding to be very difficult with the ctd. I've tried different air pressure and playing with the rebound but there is just not enough adjustment in this shock. I havent taken the volume spacer out yet as I feel that it will just blow through it's travel quicker. I want to stick with the stock shock but it's firmness is hurting me.
 
#27 ·
Some more updates...

I have had some more ride times with the Endorphin and PUSH. I am probably going to have to get a re-tune (which is free within the first 90 days). I spoke with Nick at PUSH and explained my experience and he wants me to get some more ride time to ensure my thoughts. I would like less initial compression and more mid-stroke compression.

The mid-stroke and end-stroke are much better with the PUSH shock. However, I am still finding that the bike is harsher than I prefer in its initial travel and then uses too much of its travel too quickly. This is still a lot better than the FOX CTD. I tend to leave it wide open. I use the middle setting sometimes. The firm setting is like a hardtail.
 
#28 ·
I would like to hear if anyone has tried the new endo with a ccdb or ccdb air. I know that on my Mojo HD, I had that same sensation of being either too firm initially then blowing through its travel too easily or If you decreased the air pressure to compensate for the initial firmness it was just mush the rest of the way. When I changed to a coil, all that went away. I'm sure a better air shock would have had the same effect but I just happened to have an 8.5 x 2.5 coil sitting around. Too bad Knolly doesn't take 8.5 x 2.5.
 
#32 ·
dulyebr- funny you should mention this. I actually contacted Ryan about trying his CCDB that he is selling from his Chilcotin (he now has an AVY). He is mailing it to me - Knolly riders rule:thumbsup:. This way I can get a feel for it and use this knowledge for the PUSH monarch re-tune. Who knows may just end up liking it....more to come.

G-Air - I have been away on various work trips over the last 2 weeks. I did spend a bit more time focusing on the air pressure for the Endorphin and got it to feel a lot better - only one short ride with this modification. It is a lot more sensitive to air pressure than the Delirium.

PUSH wants me to spend more time on the bike so that we can dial the re-tune in properly. I wrote a diatribe for them.
 
#33 ·
I finally had a great ride on the Endorphin today:D - and it is about time. (Note I have been spoiled by my longer-travel Delirium for a long time.) As I have mentioned the Endorphin is fast, the geometry is killer, but a little harsh for my complete liking, so I have been tinkering with the suspension a lot.

There is a symbiotic balance between the fork and rear shock. Many of us are aware of this. Look at all of the folks discussing the AVY shock who no want an AVY fork for balance it out. Some times you can a mismatch that works (firmer rear, softer front - air shock, coil fork).

The other thing that can happen is by improving the characteristic of the fork (or shock), you can inherently improve the rear shock (the fork) and the overall suspension behavior. And this is exactly what I did...

I am running the front fork a bit softer on the Endorphin than I run on the Delirium and this has made the rear end feel much better on the Endorphin, and the overall behavior very enjoyable. I also opened up the rebound a lot more on the fork and shock and this has really helped this bike. Now, the bike descends well while still being playful. It actually feels like a bike with 140mm of travel. I also installed a 2.25 schwalbe rocket ron tire on the rear. I am probably going to get one for the front. I haven't ridden a sub 2.4 in tires in a few years, so I wanted to try one out first.

On the downhills, I was skipping all of the roots, bumps, etc but today I was picking landing spots much farther down the trail. I was also going much faster (more confidence), because it was working so well. The bike felt goooood:thumbsup:! The other thing that could be happening is that seals on everything are breaking in. It is fun bunny hopping this bike, owing to the shorter stays, just lean back and the bike gets up.

In the seated position, the fox float is relatively stiff. The Endorphin suspension is stiff in the seated position. Running the front end softer and the shock in the open pro-pedal, allows the bike to climb technical stuff better. In the middle shock setting, it is much faster and a bit harsher, and it is very stiff in the firm setting - so you have options.

On the Delirium, there seems to be a wider range of getting a good setting. On the Endorphin, I found that this has taken more tinkering, which is probably associated with short travel nature of the bike.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Good to hear you are sticking with it for the time being. I don't have as much experience as you, but I know it takes me a long time to get things dialed in on a new bike. I've been riding my Chili for a year now and think I just about have it dialed. I probably don't ride as much as most but its still been a fun process.

Did the Endo feel too XC at first? I guess that would be good news for me as I am looking for as much distance between it and my Chili as possible.

Thanks for your input.

TG
 
#35 ·
Good to hear you are sticking with it for the time being. I don't have as much experience as you, but I know it takes me a long time to get things dialed in on a new bike. I've been riding my Chili for a year now and think I just about have it dialed. I probably don't ride as much as most but its still been a fun process.

Did the Endo feel to XC at first? I guess that would be good news for me as I am looking for as much distance between it and my Chili.

Tanks for your input.

TG
Exactly. My initial impression of the new Endo is that is was a Chili LITE. Sounds like it is more geared toward the XC side of the business, which should be perfect in line up.

Geez, now I just gotta figure out how I can afford one, and rid my garage of the "other brand" in there. :thumbsup:

It took me at least 3 months to dial in the Chili how I wanted it.
 
#36 ·
I think the most common misconception thus far regarding the new Endorphin, is probably held by owners of the original Endorphin. These folks 'might' be expecting the new version to be the same(original)140mm all mountain design that ended up best suited with a 36mm chassis fork at 160 travel. That was then.

With the new round of designs, Noel tweaked the kinematics on the Chilcotin and Endorphin to accomplish different things(terrain, intended purpose, etc). So while the overall finished package(s) might look very similar, they are different animals, meant for different tasks, with some amount of overlap in the middle.

I think they key with all this is too appreciate the strong suits of each design. I think G-Air is onto something that Dude! is warming up to... it is really fun to have a couple bikes that are wildly different in configuration, meant for totally different experiences on the trail.
 
#43 ·
I would really like to throw a leg over an Endo for a ride or two.

My Chili is soon to be full coil and built on the burlier side, so I'd love to ride an Endo that's all air and a lightweight build, to really separate it as much as possible from my Chili. I can only imagine it'd be an incredibly fun bike for those trail days when the Chili wasn't really warranted, or I just wanted something different.
 
#46 ·
Yes - I get full travel - too much so. The Fox CTD required running less sag. It is much better with the PUSH Monarch. I don't feel it, but I am still knocking the o-ring off the shaft with 2 rubber bands. I need to install 1 more or half of one of the Monarch bands to mitigate bottom out.

For the PUSH retune, my request at the moment is to make the initial stroke plusher, but provide more mid-stroke and end stroke support. One of my concerns in doing this is that I am working against Noel's design.

This is why I am trying Ryan's CCDB to see what tune works best.
 
#55 ·
I am getting a M raw frame. I will try the CTD with a 34 150mm Float Fork and XT build. Pretty stoked. I need a bike that differs from the Chilcotin. I imagine these two Knollys will compliment each other for Enduro racing...with the Endo tackling most of the courses i have raced and the Chilly targetted for Whistler and any other beefy courses. 650B is definitely going to be an interesting option also!
 
#59 ·
I have direct experience with an 09 Endorphin (M,DUC 32/foxrp23) and an 09 Delirium(XS, Float36rc2, Fox dhx air). I have ridden these bikes on identical trails for the duration of the summer. First off, they both flat out rip. As it should be, the endo was set up a little lighter for trail riding and the delirium heavier for AM/ dh park riding. When it came to trail riding the endorphin came across as an efficient but capable platform to ride technical (SMBA,NY) trails with an eye for almost whatever line I wanted. I spent most of the summer running 1x9 @ 36x11-34. The delirium (my gf's, hence the xs) was a bike that surprised me at efficiency, even with dual ply dh tires. It offered a greater sense of confidence when the trails points down than the endorphin, although I dont think it was much faster on the trails. I've been curious about the chilcotin but dont think it would make me faster on trails than the endorphin allows me to be.

I am trying a marz 55cr on the endo this year, as to get a front end like the delirium has.
 
#60 ·
Today was a first in a long time. There was a time that I could beat my step-son up the mountain, but those days I thought have passed. Now we weren't exactly racing - just a 1hr plus ride with the dogs. However, it was the first time riding with him, while I was on the Endorphin.

Usually around the 1/3 way point, I say go ahead and I will see you at the top. However that didn't happen today, because he wasn't on me like normal, and this put a little fire in me, and scaled two very steep climbs that I normally walk. Note I am still using a 1x10 on the Endorphin.

I know I have been skeptical of the bike, but I am either coming terms with it, finally dialing it, or both but whatever it is I have been having a blast with the Endorphin lately. I hit small gap jump the other night. On one of my recent rides, my buddy mentioned to me that I was jumping every root, rock, bump on the trail with the Endorphin. He said it looked like I was having a blast. I told him that I was - it feels like I have cheater gear and it fun to attack everything on the trail.

I have two specific trail areas that I still need to ride with the Endorphin, but the trails have been too wet lately - it will happen this week and then my Endorphin thoughts will be complete and no more diatribes from me.
 
#61 ·
Today was a first in a long time. There was a time that I could beat my step-son up the mountain, but those days I thought have passed. Now we weren't exactly racing - just a 1hr plus ride with the dogs. However, it was the first time riding with him, while I was on the Endorphin.

Usually around the 1/3 way point, I say go ahead and I will see you at the top. However that didn't happen today, because he wasn't on me like normal, and this put a little fire in me, and scaled two very steep climbs that I normally walk. Note I am still using a 1x10 on the Endorphin.

I know I have been skeptical of the bike, but I am either coming terms with it, finally dialing it, or both but whatever it is I have been having a blast with the Endorphin lately. I hit small gap jump the other night. On one of my recent rides, my buddy mentioned to me that I was jumping every root, rock, bump on the trail with the Endorphin. He said it looked like I was having a blast. I told him that I was - it feels like I have cheater gear and it fun to attack everything on the trail.

I have two specific trail areas that I still need to ride with the Endorphin, but the trails have been too wet lately - it will happen this week and then my Endorphin thoughts will be complete and no more diatribes from me.
Glad to see you two are starting to get along. I think you are driving home the intended purpose of the Endo, and I think I like it :thumbsup:
 
#62 ·
hey dude, glad you are liking it more. Have you put the ccdb on there or the monarch? I have been thinking about the RWC needle bearings to help with small bump compliance. any thoughts on that? I swapped out the fox 140 for a RS rev and the initial neighborhood test feels good. The RS has a longer steer tube which also allowed me to add a 10mm spacer under the stem which is also feeling good I won't be back on it for three weeks but I'm looking forward to it.
 
#63 ·
So I have been doing a lot more rides lately on the Endorphin with my buddies....I am starting to recognize the Endorphin's potential by riding with my buddies. I am riding both faster uphill and downhill - note this trail dependent. I have been making steep trails and on the way down, I am going quite fast as well. The Endorphin is a bit harsher - but I can maintain more speed through extra pedal strokes here and there that have more ummmphh to them. I didn't recognize this when I was riding by myself and I don't have a computer.

The Endorphin's suspension is snappy and though harsher, allows me to accelerate on the way down - out of turns, flattish sections. The snappy behavior also allows me to accelerate for obstacles and either the suspension or the lightness allows me to jump features a bit farther. I able to hit bumps and go for transitions on the downsides that farther away allowing me to maintain my momentum and faster speeds. The Endorphin skips down the trail, where the Delirium is more planted and absorbs the features. I am adjusting to this aspect. I feel the geometry allows me to relax on the downhills. Now if the trail gets too rough, I will eventually be bounced around too much and slowed down relative to the Delirium. On a few downhill trails, I am transitioning side to side avoiding ruts, rocks etc, as oppose to blindly hitting them straight on.

I have been riding the Endorphin consecutively for the last month. Yesterday, I did a four non-stop ride - who knows how far it was. I followed with a 2.5 hr fast pace ride today. My friends hop on the bike and say it doesn't feel like a bike that I would set-up and ride, but they also say that it is not slowing me down at all. They are not thrilled that I have a lighter, faster bike.

I did install Ryan's CCDB and its feel much plusher. However, I don't think this is the correct direction to go down. The Endorphin with the CCDB (ignoring the obvious differences) pedals well and is more aggressive in its handling, but it much more like my Delirium. Hence if I am going to sacrifice pedaling then, I am riding the Delirium.
 
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