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Why go tubeless?

19K views 126 replies 43 participants last post by  desertred 
#1 ·
I'm doing some upgrades to my bike, and I'm looking my options for wheels. I'm to the point know where I'm looking at tube and tubeless rims. What would be the main reason for going tubeless?

I'm sure it's a simple answer, but this noob needs some help.
 
#3 ·
Here's where I start asking questions trying to figure out why you want to upgrade and you're going to interpret my investigation as though I'm being a disc. In reality, I'm just trying to figure out if you really want/need to upgrade or if you are just buying shiz because other people told you you should and you feel compelled to do it.

So, why do you want to upgrade your wheels in the first place? If it's because you want lighter wheels, then why do you want lighter wheels? If you want lighter wheels because they are faster, then why do you want to go faster? If you want to go faster because you are racing, then the reasons to get lighter wheels and tubeless tires for racing are different than the reasons why you should get lighter wheels and tubeless tires for recreational riding.

Why do you mountain bike in the first place? If it's because you like to get some exercise in the outdoors, then what you have is fine.

Lighter wheels and tubeless tires may not be the answer to whatever problem you have (real or perceived). Let me know what problem or defiency you are facing and I will help you find an appropriate and cost effective solution.

Please, please, please DO NOT buy stuff because other people make you feel bad for not having it.
 
#5 ·
Nope, I'm not buying stuff because other people are telling me to. I'm upgrading my entry level drive train and are looking at new wheels as my current set have an 8 speed flywheel and I'm going to be running a 10 speed setup. I have the option to get tubed or tubeless rims.

I bike to get outside, be active and see new things. I like the idea of entering races, but I'm not there yet.
 
#30 ·
It may feel more stable and provide more traction though - but more traction is an INCREASE in resistance no?
Actually, the opposite is true, at least if we look at overall efficiency. Consider this extreme example:. You are pedaling up a hill, but the back tire is spinning and you are not moving at all. You are getting 0% efficiency. All of your energy is going into warming up the environment and tearing up the trail :). You get a wider tire or let some air out of yours, and it now climbs the hill. You are no longer at 0% efficiency -- you are infinately better off! So in reality, the less slipping and sliding you do, the less work you do.

The Schwalbe paper I mentioned a couple of posts ago claims that additional rubber on the road does not add to rolling resistance. The reason to go with narrow tires on a road bike is weight savings, but mostly lower wind resistance. It sounds like heresy based on everything I have read and been told with respect to cars, but just thinking about it logically, I see no reason why road molecules and tire molecules merely touching each other is going to generate heat.
 
#41 ·
They told me bathing in boiling water would be fatal, so I dropped the temperature below zero and it froze. I still didn't get the bath. :(

That's what I think when I read stuff about lower pressures increasing rolling resistance. Well of course the rolling resistance will be higher, if you're riding flattened 2.35 mm mud tires on smooth pavement. What happens on the trail is vastly different.
 
#42 ·
A flat tire on or off road does increase rolling resistance. I guarantee it.

A flattened mud tire may be faster at getting through mud than a pumped up tire, but it still has more rolling resistance than when inflated to its "Goldilocks" psi.

And what does any of this have to do with tubed vs tubeless, anyway?
 
#7 ·
While you may not get as many pinch flats with tubeless, you would still need to carry a tube and/or boot in case of sidewall cut. Many ppl go tubeless for low pressures. This will increase the chance of burping and may even deplete your tire of air instantly. This could also happen with a pinch flat, but, might not be as quickly as burping the bead.

I already ride around at about 27-31lbs with tubes. I can ride tubes around 25lbs (i'm 165lbs geared up). I don't like the squirm you get from pressure that low. Whether burping or pinch flatting, i don't like banging my rims on rocks. 28ish pounds solves this and tubes work for this pressure. I've pinch flatted twice in the past year and a half. One was because i decided to slam my rear wheel into a curb. This bent my rim and probably would have flatted either way.

I seem to change tires often depending on the terrain i'm going to ride or simply because i feel like i want more or less knobs on a ride. Setting up tubeless each time would seem to be annoying for this.

UST wheels and tires would be the only way i would go tubeless. I don't feel safe with a rigged setup. Unfortunately, not enough UST tire models to select from to make the switch.
 
#15 ·
- Going tubeless has reduced flats of any kind to zero for me. Not just the pinch ones, but all.
- I have not experienced burping even at low pressures.*
- Even if the weight remains the same, liquid sealant doesn't affect acceleration as much as a solid tube. And usually the weight is a bit lower when you go tubeless.
- I noticed a decrease in rolling resistance. I'm not a racer, but I simply enjoy the ride more when I can make the bike move more fluidly.

* Instead of a pressure thing, I'm convinced it's more a question of a compatible rim and tire. Mine are Stan's Crests with yellow tape and Schwalbe Nobby Nics. Also, I think difficulty setting up to run tubeless stems from incompatible parts or incorrect procedure. I did as all the how-tos told me and have had zero problems.
 
#21 ·
-
- I noticed a decrease in rolling resistance. I'm not a racer, but I simply enjoy the ride more when I can make the bike move more fluidly.
I have heard so many people say this, but I never experienced a decrease in rolling resistance when I did a VERY unscientific test:

Tires with tubes

1. marked spot on top of hill (pavement)
2. rolled down hill without touching brakes
3. marked spot on flat at bottom that bike came to rest.
4. Repeat process 5 times (to get a slight range)

Removed tubes, added rim strips / sealant, pumped SAME tires to SAME psi

1. went back to marked spot on top of hill (pavement)
2. rolled down hill without touching brakes
3. marked spot on flat at bottom that bike came to rest.
4. Repeat process 5 times (to get a slight range)

Guess what......The great reduced rolling resistance (which should equate to longer rolling) never materialised.

I still tried tubeless for part of the season - again, no real weight savings. True, I did not pinch flat (which I wasnt really doing with tubes) but I did tear a sidewall once causing the stans jizz to fly everywhere.

Fortunately I had a spare tube, but it back in and have not bothered going tubless again.

Best I can see is tubeless is just a preference. Sorta like schrader valve VS presta valve. But thats another topic......:thumbsup:
 
#18 ·
Hate to thread-jack, but will tubeless systems prevent goathead flats? Darn things are worse than thumbtacks...I'm considering tubeless to avoid changing tubes all the time, but I don't like the idea that you can deflate the tire at low pressures just by hitting a rock wrong. Tubes with gel sound better...or tire strips.
 
#19 ·
Stan's has worked well for me vs. goatheads. I have some S-Works Fast Traks w/ really thin casings that are full of goathead holes. Every once in a while, a 'plug' of sealant will knock loose, and I have to shake the bike for a few seconds, then orient the hole downward for a bit, and let it reseal. That may seem like a lot, but it's way easier than reinstalling a new tube. Barely any pressure loss.
 
#23 ·
006_007, your test sounds scientific enough to me. You confirm my belief that it is unlikely that rolling resistance due to tire/tube interaction is significant or occurs at all. BUT, if you tried the same test at say 30 back /25 front PSI with tubes and 25/20 without, over some roots and other uneven trail surfaces, I would expect to see an improvment. The tire conforms to the trail surface rather than bouncing over it. There is a whitepaper by Schwalbe where they tested this, and my seat-of-the-pants experience agrees. I also believe that the tires get better traction. It is definately more comfortable!

As for weight savings, Stans recommends 4 ounces of goo per tire for 29" 2.2s. You will not realize any weight savings using that much. Stan's main point of marketing seems to be puncture resistance as the video shows.

But for those of us who do not repeatedly ride over nail beds, you do not need that much. If the bead is sealed, just having the inner surface of the tire wet with the stuff will protect from greenbrier punctures. I run between one and two ounces. As long as there is a pool of it in the tire, you are good.

CSC said:
but I don't like the idea that you can deflate the tire at low pressures just by hitting a rock wrong. Tubes with gel sound better...or tire strips.
We don't have many rocks around here, but from what I hear it's really not a big issue. When I burped mine, it may well have shredded the tube if I had had one. Nothing is foolproof.

If you are leery of lower pressure, you can run tubeless at the same pressure you are using now. If sealant is called on to prevent a flat, from everything I have read, it works better with a tubeless setup than in a tube.
 
#26 ·
006_007, your test sounds scientific enough to me. You confirm my belief that it is unlikely that rolling resistance due to tire/tube interaction is significant or occurs at all. BUT, if you tried the same test at say 30 back /25 front PSI with tubes and 25/20 without, over some roots and other uneven trail surfaces, I would expect to see an improvment. The tire conforms to the trail surface rather than bouncing over it. There is a whitepaper by Schwalbe where they tested this, and my seat-of-the-pants experience agrees. I also believe that the tires get better traction. It is definately more comfortable!
.
I dunno, my experience is that less tire pressure means the tire is going to conform to irregularities on the trail more meaning more surface area contacting which equals more resistance........

It may feel more stable and provide more traction though - but more traction is an INCREASE in resistance no? :madman:

I give up. I am just gonna ride my damn bike :thumbsup:
 
#24 ·
Let me add my question to this thread:

I'm looking for ways to make my bike lighter, will going tubeless help?

Some details, if you want them:

I've been riding this bike (2011 Stumpjumper Comp 29) for 1 1/2 seasons. Other than putting some nifty grips on it and some knobbier tires, it's all as it came from the from the factory.

This year was my first season of racing (Sport class). I weigh 125 lbs. I've never had a pinch flat. I have had 2 punctures this year (same trail, different days). I usually run 24-26 psi. A certain trail is easier at 22-23 psi. Often, I just squeeze my tires, decide "good enough," and go ride. I like The Captain Control tires.

Husband does most of my bike maintenance (but the local shop does stuff that needs a tool he doesn't have and things he doesn't have time to do). He expects me to do more and more of my own bike work. That would include going tubeless since he has no interest in fussing with it.

I already know I'm converting from 3 X 10 to 1 X 10. I'm looking for other ways to lighten the bike. Right now it is 25 lbs. Guy at the shop is recommending new wheels.
 
#32 ·
Because then you get your "cool-guy club" card.

Ok, not really. The main purpose is flat prevention and the ability to run lower pressures w/o pinch flatting. If you are have tubeless-ready rims/tires, it will be a bit lighter than a tubed set-up. If you convert with a rim strip, it will be marginal in terms of weight reduction.
 
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#37 ·
A roadie (135lb lightweight) on rock hard tires at 120psi or rock hard tires at 100psi? Neither are going to deform (flatten) the contact patch with pressures that high with so little volume. Air up that road tire to 50psi and there will be a difference in rolling resistance. If there wasn't, they would only use 50psi. Mountain bike tires have much more volume and are used at much lower pressure. A "flatter" tire is going to roll slower. Mountain bike, car, trailer, dolly, hula hoop, and even a roadie tire. I can feel the difference with my legs between a 45psi tire and a 30psi tire.
 
#47 ·
You could in theory run them flat (no air...) on a smooth surface...assuming you did not cut the wall of the tube with your rim or something on the ground.

In practice, you would have to have enough air to press and hold the tire bead to the rim...in the neighborhood of 15-20 psi, to be safe. I have ridden on less than 20 psi...not great, but possible. Tubeless allows you to glue the bead to the rim, so you might get lower psi on the tubeless set-up, but things would start getting sketchy.

EDIT: I mean, no one would run 15 psi tubeless, right?

The whole issue is how low can you go and not have the tire pop off the rim or compress and get lacerated by the rim? Tubeless gives you a bit more flexibility.
 
#50 ·
I can't believe all the back and forth about rolling resistance and the theory of it. Stop reading this crap, convert them to tubeless, run lower pressure than your are used to, and go for a ride. Then you can make your own opinion of whether or not you think it works. This reminds of me of all the theorizing that goes on about 29ers, whether they roll over things easier, whether they climb easier, whether they are faster, blah blah blah. Just buy one and ride it. If you like it, great, if you don't, sell it and go back to your 26er.
 
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#99 ·
Techniques, tools and components develop. Once technology becomes more common, prices drop. Tubeless will increase in popularity as a result.

That said, tubes will probably remain the easier way and some people can't tell the difference (or the convenience outweighs the slight advantage). As opposed to cars, end users change tires a lot more so ease of installation is a more significant factor.

Not all people (or even enthusiasts) are willing to go that far for some performance. This applies to tubulars as well.
 
#8 ·
....or run regular tires on UST wheels without tubes and use Stan's to seal it up.

I was tired of heavy bikes and so I built up another bike, including UST wheels/tires.... and all I saved overall (comparing bike to bike) was 2 lbs. LOL.

-S
 
#9 ·
The reason to run tubless two fold.
1) Lower pressures that should give you better grip (run too low on tubes an get pinch flats)
2) Less risk of thorn flats with sealant.

weight is about a wash and tubless is much harder to set-up.

I run tubes in the Az desert in the last 600 miles of riding I have had 1 pinch flat. This is with plenty of rocks on the trail. I typically run 30-35 psi and I am 160lbs fully suited up and I pinch flatted due to starting the ride too low on pressure. (25 psi or lower). I have had many thorn flats, but I have only had to change a tire 3 times on the trail due to flats. 1 for the pinch flat and 2 for thorn flats. Most of the time when cactus causes flats it is a slow leak I fixed after the ride at home. Changing a tube is easy and I can buy them in bulk for $5.00 each or less and can patch them for a $1.00.

This beats dealing with stans and other sealants that dry out cause problems. Plus I reminded of the guy on a 29er that I met 4 miles from the trail head. He had a flat rear tire when is tubeless popped off the rim. I had a pump, but no CO2 and the pump was not able to "seat" the bead. I carry only 1 spare 26" tube and had another 16 miles to ride so I just had to leave him.

I am just not into the tubeless deal. Even here in the desert.
 
#11 ·
I run tubeless and love it. I also carry a tube and co2. With lower pressure I spin out less on technical rock climbs, ride is smoother, less fatigue, no flats. Set up was easy. I run UST with regular tires and Stan's sealant. Best set up decision I've made so far.
 
#13 ·
I run in AZ also. I went tubeless conversion on my GT and never looked back. The reason was too many thorn punctures. I like to wake up in the morning and ride and not have to worry about changing/repairing a flat before my ride. My new Salsa has MTB tubeless wheels and just pulled the tubes out the other day and went tubeless. Mush easier to go tubeless if you have tubeless rims.
The tubeless works fine for me and geared up I'm at 245-250.
I also run between 20 and 30 lbs. Depends on where I'm riding.
I also still carry a tube with me just in case.
 
#16 ·
Same thing here, except I converted using rimstrips on a marlin, even though I was told you couldn't do it-I proved everyone wrong on that one. I got tired of having to air up my tubed tires for every stinking ride the next morning, I had 1 flat a day with tubes, even ran out of patches. I weigh as much as you do all geared up, and my trail rides are cushy and loose terrain here is no challenge. I worked hard to get the rear tire on it aint coming off without being forced. I havent even burped on my setup and I purposely try to run over cactus thorns and mesquite thorns but have yet to get one stuck where the sealant had to do its job. I carry a tube & Co2.
 
#14 ·
Only had one thorn flat (sidewall) so far since September. That's one of the reasons I went tubless. No flats, no burps so far, but I do run a little higher pressure (about 38-42) psi. I ride light so the wife is the spare tire - helps if you live a couple miles off the trail head and you know help is less than 5 minutes away via cell phone.

-S
 
#17 ·
My bike came with tubeless ready rims and tires. Brought two stems, two rim strips, and some goo and was good to go.

Reasons? Reliability, convenience, weight savings, ability to run lower pressure.

I have had only one flat in 1200 miles of running tubeless. A sidewall cut, and that would have sealed had I kept a closer eye on the amount of sealent in the tire. And actually, I was able to ride most of the way back before it got too soft to ride. I burped some air when falling off a log, but it sealed up again and I was able to ride out. The usual greenbriar thorns that cause most flats around here are a non-issue. I don't carry any flat repair equipment, but where I ride it is a few miles walk at the most to get to a road.

Weight savings is about 60 grams per wheel -- a cheap way to save weight where it matters most. Some people claim that there is energy savings because of lessened friction between the tube and tire. Indeed, cars with tubeless tires do get better mileage. I can tell the difference riding tubeless, but I think it is more weght savings than anything.

It took some learning before I would call tubeless "convenient". A different skill set is required than dealing with tubes, but with proper equipment and technique, it is easier IMO. There is certainly no danger of pinching a tube while mounting. I do think the tire holds air longer than with tubes.

I run 25 PSI rear & 20 front, and it is more comfortable and handles better than 30 & 25 that I ran with tubes. No instability that people mention. I start seeing that at around 15 PSI.

Tubeless Ready and UST is not the same thing BTW.

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/non-tubeless-tubeless-ready-ust-520672.html
 
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