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Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)

342K views 626 replies 237 participants last post by  chewaz 
#1 ·
I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.

1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.
 
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#28 ·
Because in order to improve the reliability of the mtb 10 speed shifting, shimano has finally admitted to themselves that SRAM had the right idea lowering the leverage ratio of the rear derailleur cable pull geometry (which makes the derailleur less sensitive to cable stretch and tension changes from shifter housing movement on a rear suspension bike). So the shifters now pull more cable than before for each shift. SRAM's 10 speed shifters and derailleurs also pull more cable than their 9 speed units. I believe the SRAM 10 speed works out as a 0.8:1 ratio now, their 8/9 speed stuff is 1:1, all shimano derailleurs except the new 10speed mtb (and the 7/8 speed DuraAce) are 2:1 and the shimano 10s MTB is I believe its been measured out as something like 1.25:1.
 
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#237 ·
I know I'm dragging up an old post here, but from what you're saying, in theory you can set up a 10 speed system using the new xt/xtr front shifters with the old xo 9 speed rear mech & a 10 speed cassette.
 
#31 ·
cort said:
I'm sorry but why can't the RD's be interchangeable between 9 and 10 speed systems? The shifter and cassette choice (ie: spacing/pull ratio) dictates which combo I can use, not the RD

Sounds like Shimano marketing to me
They changed the geometry of the RD. The mtb 10-speed RD moves a different distance for the same amount of cable movement than the old RDs.

Same reason you can not use a SRAM RD with Shimano shifters.
 
#32 ·
rconceptsinc said:
So can someone confirm that you can put 10 spd chainrings on a 9 spd crankset....and things will shift fine? I have an XTR 970 crankset that I would like to use as 10 spd mountain.
You do not need to change the rings to use a 10-speed chain.

Reportedly, you can put the 10-speed rings on the 9-speed crank, but you may also need to switch to the 10-speed FD and/or front shifter.
 
#55 ·
ljsmith said:
You can use a 9 speed crankset and rings with a 10 speed chain. Weight weenies have already been doing this for years. I have heard that you need to use a 9 speed front derailleur though, but I have not confirmed this. My 10 speed setup is using the 9 speed XTR 970 crankset and it works flawlessly.
I checked with the LBS that I bought all the parts at, who happens to also be a Shimano Service Center and just went to a Shimano training and he said 9 speed chainrings with a 10 speed chain in fine.

cstuttle said:
Anyone tried a SRAM Powelink with an XT 10 spd dyna sys chain?
I asked him about this as well, he said not to do it.
 
#75 ·
9v + 10v DynaSys

Yesterday, I used for the first time my "new" drive train 3x10s, mixing existing Shimano 9 speed together with new SynaSys 10 speed components:
• Cranks XT Hollowtech II (2004).
• Chain rings 22/32/44 XT 9s. 22 and 32 new.
• Front derailleur Deore 9s (2003).
• Rear derailleur XT DynaSys 10s.
• Cassette XT DynaSys 10s, 11-36.
• Chain XTR DynaSys 10s.
• Shifters XT DynaSys 3x10s, front and rear.

It works flawlessly.
 

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#79 ·
just finished up a road test up and down some hilly streets with a poor mans
10 speed upgrade with some parts from CRC
Changed the rear cassette to a Shimano XT11-36 ten speed.
replaced the rear derailleur to a XT shadow M773 medium cage
replaced rear shifter to a XT 10 speed
and the best, KMC X10 93 10 speed chain with a sram link
front inner and middle chainrings are action tec ti 8,9 speed stuff
outer is a run of the mill cheap 8/9 speed ring.
non of the chain rings have any ramps or pins.

shifting is spectacular. the new shimano ratio change along with smaller gaps
of the cogs, gives a very smooth and precise shifting. not quite the
click and bang into gear of the nine speed shimano, thats ok though.

also the front derailleur is much easier to dial in with the skinnier chain
 
#80 ·
An interesting thing to note: the new XTR derailleur is listed on Shimano's website with a capacity of 41 teeth, meaning that if coupled with the new 42-32-24 cranks, the biggest sprocket in the rear should be with 34 teeth. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but it kinda negates the point of the whole 10 speed transition, at least the way Shimano is trying to push it. If I'm going to use the same 11-34 sprockets in the rear (with one extra gear sqeezed between say 20 and 23T) and I'm willing to pair them with the aforementioned cranks, what I'm getting would be a net decrease in usable range, both in the low and top end. Or maybe I should be getting the 38-26 cranks with a 36T cassette? Same thing, what I'm getting on the low end is a 36:26 ~ 1,38 gear ratio. Compare that to the 34:22 ~ 1,54 gear ratio that is common with 9 speed setups. If this reduction is a bad thing depends on lot of things.

The XT and SLX derailleurs are listed with capacity of 43T, which fits the bill exactly - again assuming 42-32-24 cranks are used, a 36T cassette becomes a no-issue. The highest ratio will be 36:24 = 1,5, actually still lower than what you get with 9 speed setups today.

So what we're getting with the new 10 speed is a closer-ratio transmission; more gears squeezed in a narrower range - which translates in smaller percepted difference between adjacent gears. I think that's the selling point that Shimano is trying to push on their website, but they got stuck in some sort of marketing talk instead of getting to the core.

Using 44-32-22 cranks seems to be the best of both worlds then: retain the sweet 11:44 = 0,25 top gear ratio, extend the highest ratio to 36:22 ~ 1,63, and get an extra gear in between. The only problem is that such configuration would require a derailleur with 47T capacity, which may be impossible to achieve within some strength/weight requirements. Of course, all is not lost, as you can read here.

Hope this may be useful when considering the switch to ten speed :)
 
#82 ·
^ Nobody *needs* more than a single speed, or even a bicycle. One can always walk.

All these posts saying "I'm more righteous because I don't need as many gears as are available nowadays" or "anyone who likes to have more gears than I do is incompetent/unfit/corrupt/works for Shimano" are getting a bit tedious...

Maybe it's time to start a new thread - or flame war - about who (apart from singlespeeders) can get away with the least gears. Now, should that be front, rear, both, or the two multiplied together? :madman:
 
#111 ·
satanas said:
What exactly are you hoping will happen? I'm afraid I don't quite see where you're coming from with the questions asked. (Also, see Shiggy's post #58.)

I think Shiggy has said elsewhere that the Shimano 10 speed MTB cassettes use thicker cogs than their 10 speed road cassettes. This wouldn't be a bad thing for cassette durability but might reduce compatibility with Sram, etc.
Yes, it's the possibility that cassette and chain life expectancy has been retained, by Shimano engineers, similar to that of 9-speed parts. And that it's true only for Shimano Dyna-sys parts.

In other words, Dyna-sys is possibly the best thing that could happen to drivetrains since 8-speed XTR. And that 9-speed Shimano solutions for MTB can now (possibly) be regarded as evolutionary dead end. And that we should expect the Saint group to migrate to 10-speed, with addition of narrow range cassettes (although I would have preferred it in 8-speed, 1:1 flavor -- but that would mean another standard to support).

satanas said:
If you're hoping that the Shimano 10 speed MTB stuff has the same thickness cogs and rollers as 9 speed my question is: "How does the extra cog fit into the same space then?" It *might* be that the outer plates are flatter than the road chains and that's how they get away with it(?). If the plates are thinner this cannot be a good thing for durability IMHO.
Well, they have reduced cog spacing but not cog thickness, and called it Dyna-sys. Then, to make a chain that would optimally work with such cassette, they somehow narrowed outer plates and pins, but retained the same 9-speed distance between inner plates. This "specialness" of the chain agrees with Shimano recommendations of what chain to use with their 10-speed MTB drivetrains.

For durability (as wear resistance), what matters most (it's IMHO too) is the width of bushing-emulation protrusions on the inner plates. Most wear on the chain happens where these contact the pins.

For durability-as-tensile-strength, I have no idea how the narrower outer plates compare to 9-speed ones and to all other kinds of 10-speed chains. Maybe there was some strength reserve in 9-speed plates that was used up in Dyna-sys.
 
#117 ·
my experiment with 9 and 10 speed mix

I just thought I'd share my experience.

Santa just brought me a 2011 Giant Trance X3 with a shimano 3x10 slx shifters, front and rear derailieur, cassette and deore crank with slx 10s rings.

I recently jumped at the chance to buy an LX crank at jensonusa for a great price. I wanted to install the LX crank on the new bike, but the tabs for the middle ring wasn't compatible with the LX crank. I instead swapped the OE granny and outer ring and left the 9s LX ring and installed on the bike.

Long story short, it works great so far. Haven't taken it out on the trail yet, but i works great riding around the neighborhood. And after closer inspection, the OE 24t granny ring is inscribed with SG-X, which is a 9 speed ring.

Hope this info might help some that have questions about using 9s rings and cranks with 10s drivetrains.
 
#119 ·
Just got the bike back from the LBS with my frankenbike 10 speed “Dyna Sys” conversion. My set up is as follows;
X9 10 speed R derailleur medium cage
X9 10 speed rear shifter
SLX 10 speed 11-36 cassette
XT 10 speed chain
XT 9 speed front derailleur
X9 9 speed front shifter
TruVativ crank with 9 speed 24/36 rings
Took it for a ride around the neighborhood including some climbs and went through all the gears and everything shifts fine. No problems at all. Except that the LBS left the chain waaaaaaaaay too long, but that’s another story. When I told the LBS what I wanted to do the mechanic swore up and down that it could not be done, that a 10 speed chain would not work on 9 speed rings. But since I’m working 6 days a week and don’t want to wrench my bike on the 7th day, I told him to just do it and give it a try. If anyone wants to do a 10 speed conversion on the cheap, don’t let your LBS talk you into getting 10 speed cranks, rings, front d and shifter. They can make it work with your existing 9 speed stuff.
 
#157 ·
Finally finished my set up...works Great!
shimano SLX 9 speed cranks: double ring set up with Blackspire super pro 38T and 26T
dynasys XT shifters F and R
XT 9 sp FD
XT 10 sp RD
XTR 10 sp dynasys chain with wipperman connect link
XT 11 - 36 T 10 sp rear cassette
Ridden twice...shifts flawlessly. More to come after a race this weekend!
 
#181 ·
@dam said:
So, I understand that chainrings are the same thickness, but the ramps are much more elaborate on Dyna Sys- especially on the granny side of the middle ring. Is this necessary to pick up the thinner chain? Has anyone tried running 10-spd chains on the 9-spd rings, particularly XT rings? I'm especially interested in the little ring, since a 24T granny is too big for me. A 22/36 sounds like a great granny for a 29er, and I really want to try it.
For the record, I replaced the 24T Dyna-Sys XT granny with a 22T 9-spd XT granny, and it works absolutely perfectly. They even looked the same, other than having two fewer teeth. I didn't even have to adjust anything- Plug 'n Play. Well, in all fairness, the granny to middle shift was slightly slow at first, but then I noticed I had a bunch of slack in the cable. Tightened that up and no-problem. Now the gearing on my 29er is only 5% higher than on my old 26er.

The 24T is a lot smoother when you're hauling butt, but for all-day self-supported high-vertical epics, the 22T will be great!
 
#193 ·
Rear Der: 9V Sram = 10V Dynasys

g3rG said:
Yes.

Since last November I have been using a Shimano 10-sp front shifter with a Sram 9-sp RD, a Shimano 10-sp cassette, and a Sram 10-sp chain. It works because the full pull of the new Shimano 10-sp stuff is exactly the same as the full pull of the old Sram 9-sp stuff. The Shimano incompatibility engineers must have screwed up.

Shifting has been perfect, even when I screw up and shift under load. I do a lot of steep climbing, so the system has had some abuse. Since the install I haven't even had to adjust it.

gerG
Yes g3rg. Yesterday I made some tests (in bike stand only) an this are the results:
xtr 980 10V Shifter + X9 '09 9V rd + 10V cs81-10 = OK :thumbsup:
xtr 980 10V Shifter + SLX 9V rd + 10V cs81-10 = NOK (as expected) :nono:
X9 '09 9V Shifter + XT 773 10V rd + 9V cs770-9 = OK :thumbsup:
X9 '09 9V Shifter + SLX 9V rd + 9V cs770-9 = NOK (as expected too) :nono:

Some remarks:
X9 rd needs a little bit longer cable lenght than shadows (dynasys or not). It's necessary to change the shifter cable to try this;
3x10 dynasys with 11-36 cogset needs long cage rd. My X9 rd is medium and the chain was too loose in granny;
It's necessary adjusts in h/l screws in rd and in shifter barrel to tune. This tune sounds harder for me.
 
#200 ·
ljsmith said:
You are correct. A 10 speed chain works great with a 9 speed crank and front derailleur. I actually like the 10 speed chain with a 9 speed front derailleur because it is easier to set it up so it never rubs due to the slightly wider cage.
My experience exactly.

I had the standard pre-DynaSys 9sp XT drivetrain on a Pivot 429. Left the front derailleur, front shifter, and cranks stock. Switched the rear derailleur, rear shifter, and chain to 10sp XT. The front shifts just like it always did, the rear shifts perfectly, too, and the chain rub issue for the front derailleur is less a problem than before as well.

Took the pre-DynaSys XT 9sp rear derailleur, put it on my monstercross frame, paired w/ DuraAce 7800 10sp STI shifter, works perfectly as well. Using a compact crankset and 11-36 cassette, freakishly low gear for my monstercross ride.

Mudge
 
#203 · (Edited)
satanas said:
FYI, I'm one of those people who detests Rapid Rise! It sucks, it's dead. Good. :thumbsup:

If you are determined to inflict further pain, suffering and frustration on yourself and the unfortunate person(s) who maintains your bike, there might be a way.

According to various people here at MTBR, the new Shimano DynaSys derailleurs use the same cable travel as last year's 9 speed SRAM. So, what you need to do to be able to use RR is to convert this cable travel, using this: ShiftMate Straight model #6S, see: http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate_straight.htm

You will have to figure out where to locate it, and your RR mech may not like 36T rear cogs, YMMV; caveat emptor and all that... :nono:

And no, I haven't tried it myself - this is all theoretical.
Just wasted about $100 trying to f-ing do this conversion. Ordered the $40 shiftmate and it changed the ratio correctly but the der had a hard time shifting into the biggest cog. Seemed like if it had a stronger spring it would happen. The der is an XTR RR.

But, just to make sure it wasn't something I was doing I took it to my LBS. What a f-ing mistake. Made me remember why I NEVER NEVER NEVER take any of my precious rides to the LBS.

The guy didn't really understand what the shiftmate *did* and removed it (with the shiftmate the der travels over three gears per shift click) and then just spouted off some nonsense... "yah man.. i don't think it's gonna work..."

The topper: While taking the bike off the stand he broke off the hydraulic fitting for the Rockshox Reverb seatpost. They ordered the parts and promised to repair it for me for free but I'm almost afraid to take my bike back there.

Totes AWES!! I *love* Shimano and all their F-ing shenigans.

I am reluctant to spend any more time or money on this but I hate top normal derailers. They suck. It's like "whoa, there is a technical/uphill/difficult section up ahead. I better take my thumb, the extremely important digit that is helping me hold on to the handlebars, and try to w-w-wwwrench the thumbshifter to a bigger cog." Makes so much sense! NOT.
 
#233 ·
No. I've been down this path and it wasn't pretty. 1st I tried just running my same old 2x9 Dues XC crankset and the new 10 speed chain would get stuck in between the rings and not seat properly on the teeth. 2nd I tried changing to 10 speed rings and keeping the cranks, this just made the chain getting stuck between the rings worse. Chainring washers didn't help, because it weakened the rings and allowed them to flex. 3rd I ordered an X9 2x10 crank and F. derailleur, mounted it, and now I ride with no issues and a stiffer more direct crankset.

Don't make the mistakes I did. Just get a complete 10 speed drivetrain.
 
#395 · (Edited)
This seems to contradict what is said in the original post, which has also been confirmed in later posts.

Is SRAM's 10 speed system different in this respect from Shimano's?

Has anyone else experienced similar issues when mixing 9 speed crankset and chainrings with 10 spd chain and cassette?

I'm thinking of using the following components for my new drivetrain:

- 9 spd Saint crankset
- 9 spd Saint front derailleur
- 10 spd XT cassette
- 10 spd XT rear derailleur
- 10 spd XT chain
- 10 spd front and rear XT shifters

May I mix these?

EDIT - update: according to this post you can mix Saint 9 spd crankset and rings with XT 10 spd drivetrain:
http://forums.mtbr.com/9206360-post9.html
 
#336 ·
Well that explains it, it's a double ring setup.

This being the exception I mentioned, by using the limiter screws to manually prevent the FD from "overshooting" the narrower 10-speed chainring spacing, where the index position would normally take it.

This works on a double ring setup, where there's only two positions to worry about. Your cable tension sets the big gear position correctly, and the limit screw sets the small gear position. But with a third gear between those two, now you can really only get 2 of the 3 dialed in, if that.

Supposedly from multiple posts in this thread, 9 speed and 10 speed front shifters are the SAME, and you only need to match your front derail to your crank.

Good luck, and if anyone knows this to be incorrect, please say so,
 
#371 ·
So, just installed an M985 XTR Dyna-Sys 10-speed rear derailleur mated to a SRAM X9 9-speed trigger shifter.

Right out of the box this combo is close but not perfect. The travel of the derailleur does not match the cable pull of the shifter as it should. You can clearly see how it becomes progressively more off as it reaches the end of travel accross the cogs. It can be adjusted to just barely work. Certainly not perfect as you have to make some comproimises. Used in this manner it is very critical of adjustment. Get it just a tad off and life is not so good but it does work.

It is so close that you CAN get it to work better with some minor changes.

The problem is that the derailleur does not draw out enough cable during it's travel. It actually travels too much when all is said and done for this combo. I had to reduce the derailleur travel for a given amount of cable pull.

So, I machined a derailleur anchor extension to change the cable pull related to the derailleur movement. In testing I tried anchoring the cable on the far side of the bolt (too much change). Then I began spacing the cable anchor point away in small increments. I also played with the exit location around the anchor bolt. Viola! After some playing around and experimentation I arrived upon the magic location and proceeded to machine an anchor bolt extension.

The 10-speed XTR jockey wheel has a very small amount of float compared to the 9-speed XTR. I can swap them later on to see how that affects things if need be but for now it is good. My guess is that it will make it just that much better and more robust in terms of adjustment requirements.

So far very happy with this slightly modified combo.

Of course this is just my experience. Your results may vary.
 
#377 ·
I think that is OK. I just tried my new 10-sp chain on 9-sp rings on my new crankset and they fit fine. I even tried the chain out on an old Campy double crank set (from the old 2x5 days) and if physically fits, but might be a little snug for shifting as you can feel the slightest drag of the teeth inside the chain links.
 
#381 ·
Someone wanted pictures. Here is the spacer needed to allow Shimano 10-speed rear derailleur to play nice with SRAM 9-speed trigger shifter.
Totally geeky! :thumbsup:


I'm considering using a 10spd trigger on a 9spd RD and 9spd cassette. If this does the trick I'm in! However, it seems I should have a spacer in the opposite direction, so maybe it's a bad idea to begin with :madman:
 
#400 ·
So here is what i found that does work and it workes well.
9sp XT crankset
9sp XT FD
9sp XT Front Shifter
10sp XTR Shadow Plus RD (freakin awesome by the way!)
10sp XT 11-36 Cassette Dynasys
10sp XT Rear Shifter Dynasys
10sp Sram 1031 chain.

Installed and tuned in seconds! Shifts perfect front and rear. Under hard load up hill and no load down hill. Basically I was able to go 2x10 using my XT tripple and a bash. Set my high limit to prevent the FD from over shifting past the middle chainring. Bought 10speed stuff for the rear and that is all she wrote. Cheap and easy.. if you dont figure in the XTR shadow plus.....
 
#2 ·
You left out...

Shimano 9/10 speed road front deraileur cable pull geometry is different than shimano mtb front derailleurs, so the equivalent front shifters do not work with front derailleurs from the other model line. That's with fully indexed shifters anyway. With gripshifters/thumbshifters/bar end shifters where you can trim the derailleur cage to wherever you want it, that's not a problem. Also there are a couple companies that offer top-pull adapters for shimano front road derailleurs and these alter the cable pull geometry also making them compatible with indexed shifters. The road flat bar shifters of course work perfectly well with the road front derailleurs when used on a mountain bike unless of course you run a top-pull adapter as well.
 
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