I am experieriencing a knocking or clunking issue with my nearly new(90 miles) XX1 derailleur. The clutch clunks loudly when it engages as the bike goes through its travel. It feels and sounds like a locked up seat stay/swingarm bearing. With the wheel removed, when pushing the cage through its swing I can feel it clunk as it engages...so it likely has nothing to do with chain tension as mentioned here: http://forums.mtbr.com/sram/type-2-derailleur-knocking-822117.html
I have a brand new one to compare my semi new one and while it swings ok now I can feel hesitation in the beginning and is likely to have the same issue.
Any ideas? Anyone else experiencing this on XX1?
I semi-solved the issue by soaking the cage attachment area in dumond liquid lube.
It still makes noise and clunks while stationary and cycling the suspension but not while in motion on the bike.
SRAM: please pipe in here... What causes the clunking? Is it "normal" or is it something that needs to be returned for warranty? Is it a set up issue?(aka user error?)
Hmm... and you can actually hear this while riding? I've got about three months of pretty hard use on my XO Type 2 (mid-cage) and I have noticed the klunking or lite knocking sensation when cycling the suspension at a standstill, but all I notice while riding is blissful silence.
If it's something you can hear over the noise of flying dirt/debris, etc. then perhaps there is something wrong, or maybe it's a function of clutch break-in and it'll get better with use? Or maybe it's an early-run XX1 quirk? Sorry I can't help with your case, but I would caution against fixating on it. Like I say if it's truly something you hear WHILE riding you may have an issue, though based on my own background of 'fixing' noises I'd say you may have created the creaking yourself by soaking the part in lube. Many modern bearing surfaces are designed to 'self-lubricate' with use and applying oils/solvents/thinning agents, etc. can often defeat the purpose. The knocking sensation when stationary is normal for a friction clutch-type tensioner but you'd be very hard-pressed to notice it while riding, as you said; however, the squeak is not something I've ever heard. If you don't have easy access to SRAM warranty I'd suggest cleaning it up as best possible with a simple rag, maybe a bit of iso alcohol or window cleaner... something to remove any excess lube that may be oozing out. Even better maybe use a soft brush and/or compressed air to clean up the pivot/clutch area. Then ride it, as much and as often as possible. As counter-intuitive as it sounds, many creak-type noise complaints can solve themselves with use, just a matter of components self-clearancing, if that makes sense?
Keep us posted if you don't mind, I'm planning on upgrading one of my bikes w/ XX1 as soon as I can find a buyer for a one-owner, lightly-used kidney.
There is no squeaking... More like a creak like the sound of a door with a hinge that needs lube. Admittedly, I only notice it while climbing, aka the time I have to dwell on things.. I can also feel it as the "clunk" reverberates through the seat stay.
My main question for SRAM: Is this noise and clunking normal?
It doesn't seem so as it functioned noiselessly for at least 7 rides...about 100 miles.
Ah so, didn't factor the 'climb fixation' into the equation... say no more, I live in NorCal, home of the Endless Fireroad Climb; I understand having blank mind space invaded by outside annoyances all too well. That's where I was coming from with my 'leave it alone and see if it goes away' advise - the pivots on my Type II-equipped bike are prone to creaking loudly (early GT Force) and it used to drive me absolutely mad, especially while climbing, to the point where I tried soaking things in lube as you have. I finally found a fix for that noise which involved (amongst other things) allowing the pivots to seat-in a bit. However, that's a totally different type of pivot interface than the friction clutch in your derailleur, obviously.
Interesting what you say about feeling the klunk too. My I-Drive frame has minimal chain growth throughout its travel so I really can't feel that slight play (klunk) at the beginning of clutch engagement unless I'm bouncing it while standing still. Even then it's very slight and feels more like my rear shock is due for service, which it is. But a suspension system with more pronounced chain growth (a la DW/VPP) could certainly exaggerate the sensation, especially if it's made of hollow carbon fiber.
Hopefully someone from SRAM or at least another XX1 user with some mileage will chime in with a fix, suggestion, or at least similar experience. Staying tuned...
Yep, started experiencing it after a really rainy ride. Was worse, got a bit better after I sprayed some WD-40 into the clutch-joint through the edges. But on a fully unlocked rear suspension the clack sound and a significant vibration are still there.
Did a video but you can't really see the derailleur moving so it looks like the clacking is made by something else, but (I'm sure you know) it's made by the derailleur:
Would send it back for warranty replacement but don't want to pause my riding until I receive a new one (would take at least a month to where I live), so I guess I first have to get one extra. (Good to have one as a spare, right?).
Not making that part serviceable is a huge design oversight in my opinion, especially after so many reports of this Type 2 issue. This totally looks like a problem solvable by adding a small amount of grease - if you could access it.
Also the chain length has absolutely nothing to do with it - the clutch is supposed to move smoothly inside the whole radius it covers.
Maybe when I get the new one, instead of sending this one to warranty, I will rip it open to see if it's serviceable and possible to close again - will let you know.
I have had xx1 since December as well as a friend of mine, and we have not had a single issue or noise with it? I know this doesn't help you but maybe it's an isolated issue?
It is isolated (I assume you have seen the other about 5 threads about this here and on other sites - these include other Type 2's - X9, XO, XX), but it appears to happen after a dirt gets into the clutch joint of the derailleur, usually carried in there by water.
So it's either a manufacture defect which makes some of the products more susceptible to this kind of malfunction (which I seriously doubt given today's manufacturing standards - basically the only variable is material failure), or every single product is susceptible and will start doing this after e.g. a proper rainy ride. Read: it can happen to you.
It's also possible that the self-greasing mechanism the clutch is said to have is doing its job, but in this case a bit slower than it should (it's understandable that it needs to work slow in order to keep working for a very long time). In fact, the clack I have now is much quieter than the one on the video I posted, and I doubt the reason for that is that I tried to spray the thing with WD-40 from outside.
So it may be a good idea to try to cycle it by hand for a good 5 minutes, over its complete path of movement - back and forth - in the hope that the self-greasing mechanism will kick in faster.
Maybe we should try to email the guy who designed it, and ask him.
Anybody heard from SRAM yet. Is the knocking a warranty issue they are taking care of? I was thinking of pulling the trigger on the whole XX1 group for a Jet 9 RDO I'm building. Then I decided I should do a Google search and found this thread Not suprised, but disappointed because the group is so simple and light.
I guess if you don't plan on riding in really rainy / wet conditions, then there is not a big risk of this happening to you. (That of course is an assumption in and on itself.)
I think some of the X9/XX/XO Type 2 guys got this replaced under warranty, I think I've seen at least one such report. (Not sure if that was easier because the LBS did it for them, better check those threads yourself.)
In my opinion the XX1 is very much worth it despite this flaw / the risk of this flaw happening to you.
I ride in a lot of wet conditions and my xx1 rd gets really loud when it gets wet and dirty. It pops and creaks and makes my new bike sound like an old abused bike. it is very annoying.
I found when i clean it and cycle the RD a ton it quiets down a bit, but the clunk never fully goes away.
I have about 60 miles on mine and it started to clunk today. It has not gotten wet and have only ridden in the dry. I thought it was something in the rear suspension and then realized it was my new XX1. Guess I will call Sram next week to try and get some answers. It has pink stuff around the clutch which Sram said was ok.
Hey guy's,
I did a little experimenting with my X9 type 2 rear derailleur today trying to eliminate the clunking. Here is what I did and it completely resolved the clunking issue. What I found is the roller bearing was completely dry of grease. I'm not the most detail oriented guy so if you have any questions feel free to PM me with your number and I can walk you thru the steps over the phone.
Here is a quick DIY on what I did:
-Remove rear derailleur from bike
-On the outside of the RD were the clutch is there is a small plastic cap. Pry the small plastic cap off and it will expose a T55 torque bolt. The is the bolt that says ( type 2 roller clutch) on it. Remove that torque bolt.
-Remove the outer cage (3mm allen) and pulleys.
-From there you will see another 3mm allen bolt at the top of the RD. Remove it carefully as the inner cage is under pressure from the RD return spring. I held the RD body and inner cage together with my hand while removing the 3mm allen.
-Once the bolt is removed pull and inner cage is off pull out the RD return spring and set it aside. The is only one way it can go back in so don't worry that.
-Once the spring is removed press the center of the clutch mechanism out to the other side of the RD. I screwed the 3mm cage bolt back in the hole and taped on it lightly with a hammer to get it to pop out the other side.
-From there you will see the shaft with a plastic sleeve on it. (That's the roller bearing)
-Slide the roller bearing off and grease the shaft, roller bearing's and outer plastic sleeve. Also grease the back side of the T55 torque bolt and the plastic spring guide that sits on the inner cage.
sounds great! it actually stopped to bother me for some reason, but if there's a lack of grease then i guess i have to put some in to prevent premature wear.
one question though - now when you cycle the derailleur by hand when mounted on the bike, do you find the clutch resistance the same as before? (except the extra resistance spike on the beginning of the movement which was there previously due to the lack of grease.) or to put the question differently - do you find the resistance adequate to prevent chain slap?
another question - the plastic cap you had to pry off - was that glued on? did you have to glue it back on? if yes, what glue have you used?
Thanks for the DIY. The sound I hear does sounds like dry parts rubbing together and is coming from the clutch. I will contact Sram first since I have only used the part for a week to see what they say. The clutch cap on mine has pink stuff around it and is not flush sticking out about 1/16. It looks like it has threads on it.
The pink stuff is lock tight. That's the cap you will pulling off with the T55 torque socket. If you tighten that cap down to much it puts more drag on the clutch action.
Thanks for your help. I see the little plastic cap comes off to expose the T55 screw on cap. How did you know when to stop tightening it (when the clutch felt resistance)? Mine already has a couple threads exposed when new, so I guess a torque is specified or some kind of resistance setting.
I was kinda lazy (needed to do this quick) to remove the chain and the derailleur and then put it back and recalibrate it etc., was quicker to just do it on the bike, although putting the spring back and preloading it with one rotation was quite an exercise (in fact probably the hardest bike mechanic operation I've done by far). (I did separate the derailleur from the bike, but did not separate it from the wire.)
At first I just undid the T55 torx, tilted the bike and drowned the clutch in WD40, but that did not help. The WD40 has made into the roller bearing (as I found when I opened it), so my hunch is that it's not the roller bearing that was the problem, but something external to it (but internal to the derailleur clutch joint).
So I greased everything, cycled the cage by hand properly, and then tightened the T55 to a level where no chain slap is possible, yet the derailleur cage moves smoothly.
I CAN NOT BELIEVE the difference this has made:
1. on the ease and precision of the shifting,
2. on the increased smoothness of the rear suspension.
Of course the bad sound went away too, but the bad sound was nothing compared to the other 2 points.
Should I get a new XX1 rear derailleur in the future, you know what's the first thing I'm doing with it, clacking or not.
I called SRAM because I'm having the same issue with my XX1 derailleur on a new Blur TRc that I just built up. Basically, the rep said that the knocking should get better once I break in the derailleur, but that it is also "a function of the Type 2 derailleur."
Both of these statements seem odd since some people aren't having this issue at all and some people are having this issue after the derailleur has been ridden some. Some of the problems could be from user error I guess or based on suspension design. Nonetheless, it would be nice if this fancy system didn't have this issue.
I haven't ridden the bike yet, so my hope is that the knocking sound either won't be noticeable or will go away on trails. If not, I'll try adding a couple of links (even though I'm fairly certain the chain is properly sized). If that doesn't work I'll see if SRAM can warranty it or else open up the derailleur...not motivated enough yet to open up a brand new derailleur.
...Basically, the rep said that the knocking should get better once I break in the derailleur, but that it is also "a function of the Type 2 derailleur."...
My experience is that it only gets worse with time, plus the extra strain put on the derailleur due to the clutch not working smoothly actually wears the derailleur much faster. Mine started to squeak also on other places than the clutch joint, due to the extreme force the jammed clutch was exerting on it during rear suspension flexing.
It's also possible that all you need to do is to rotate the T55 (freely accessible under a non-glued removable plastic cover; but itself glued with a lock-tite) just a few degrees CCW, to make the clutch work with less resistance, as I reckon mine was way overtightened, and that may have been the cause of it all. If you remove the T55, you can also put some oil in, without removing the derailleur from the bike, or separating the cage at all. Whether this voids the warranty is another matter entirely.
My knocking hasnt changed one bit. I tried adding a link and it did nothing. THis weekend I'm going to remove the T55, grease it and see if that helps.
I greased mine and so much better. Hopefully it will stay that way. Really disappointed in SRAM. I called to get the problem fixed after a couple of rides and they said take it to a dealer. I tried to buy the kit from my dealer, but they could not get it for 30 days so I bought it online. I did not feel right taking it to the dealer to get a warranty when Sram could have sent me the part.
i got mine all apart, greased everything but how do you retension the spring? I tried to hold it all together but the spring shot out and now im not sure what to do.
When I did the work on mine I left it on the bike.
Pull derailleur cage down and lock with pin.
Remove wheel.
Remove stop bolt on derailleur cage.(cylindrical bolt with allen head to let jockey unwind)
Release cage and let unwind (be careful under pressure/ left chain on)
Remove cap and T55 bolt.
Remove cage bolt by using 4mm allen one on cage side and one on clutch side.
Hang cage with chain on wire from chain stay to keep out of way (don't change rotation)
Remove cage plate, spring, clutch clean and grease.
Install clutch, spring, cage plate and then cage from the wire, install bolt and tighten.
Wind clutch up and lock with pin and install lock bolt (lock pin holds cage)
Unlock cage.
Install T55 and set tension by moving the cage to feel resistance.
Put cap back on.
Install wheel and adjust derailleur.
The part I dont quite get is
"Wind clutch up and lock with pin and install lock bolt"
Is this what tightens the spring? Right now I have it all back together without the T55 in and the cage just swings around loose with no tension at all.
The part I dont quite get is
"Wind clutch up and lock with pin and install lock bolt"
Is this what tightens the spring? Right now I have it all back together without the T55 in and the cage just swings around loose with no tension at all.
I believe you have to preload the spring once, meaning get the spring in the grooves for it and spin around the jockey/cage. It's a pain in the ass, but it's doable.
When I did this, the wheel was off the bike and the jockey/cage was apart from the rest of the derailleur, and the chain was off the derailleur as well. I reinstalled jockey/cage with the 3mm bolt just enough to keep things from flying apart before winding up the spring (that helps keep the parts in place until you tighten down the bolt). Once you spin around the jockey/cage so that the little cylindrical part goes past the groove in the upper part of the derailleur, tighten down the 3/4mm bolts. I got someone to help me tighten down the bolt so I could focus on keeping the spring preloaded...Sorry, wish I knew what all the parts were called.
For what it's worth, I opened up the derailleur and lubed up everything as suggested, but the knocking, while it goes away for a bit, comes back fairly quickly. It seems like the bolts tighten as the derailleur moves. It also seemed like just loosening the 3 and 4mm bolts and the T55 a bit is what made the derailleur stop making noise more so than putting oil in it. Also, I used a sewing needle to pry off the plastic cap that covers the T55, which kept the part intact.
Ever since I heard of this clutch design a while ago I wondered how the heck they would address chain growth issues. Anyone with issues on a HT? It just seems like someone in some department would have seen this coming..I did and I'm a plumber..
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