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  1. #1
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    Good job! Tube vs.Tubeless Weight Analysis

    I figured I would post this here because it was done with Specialized equipment. I did a full weight analysis on tubes versus tubeless.

    I used stock Roval wheels with HiLo hubs off a 2012 Epic Carbon Comp. Here are my findings.

    I meticulously weighed everything using a digital gram scale. For some reason their was red rim strips on my wheelset. I removed them and replaced with 25mm yellow tape. I also used a standard Stan's valve stem becasue you can remove the core. It worked great. It fit the rim profile perfectly

    Stock wheelset:
    Front with rotor, stock red rim strip, tube and S-works Fast track tire- 1775 grams
    S-works Fast Track tire- 519 grams
    Front with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem.-1067 grams
    Front with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, tire and sealant-1653 grams.

    I ended up puting 67 grams of sealant in the front tire.

    Reduced front wheel by 122 grams or 4.3 ounces.

    Rear with rotor, stock red rim strip, tube, cassette and Control Renegade 29x1.95 tire- 2319 grams
    Control Renegade 29x1.95 tire- 524 grams
    Rear with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, cassette.-1609 grams
    Front with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, cassette, tire and sealant-2197 grams.

    I ended up puting 64 grams of sealant in the reart tire.

    Reduced rear wheel by 122 grams or 4.3 ounces.

    I would say my margin of error is less than 1%. Just by converting to tubeless I saved 244 grams or 8.6 ounces.

    Additional Notes- The new Fast Trak tire is the easiest tire I have set up. It would of probably held air with no sealant. It easy to get on the rim and bead popped on with little effort.

    If you buy an Epic Comp and convert the wheels you will need either the blue roval tape or stans yellow tape. I went with the wider yellow tape.

    Edit: Did some more weighing. Here are the complete weights.

    Front with stans tubeless valve stem and yellow tape-964 grams
    Rear with stans tubeless valve stem and yellow tape-1139 grams
    Cassette Sram1030-369 grams
    Rotor with hardware-104 grams (This is an average of both rotors weighed)

    There is some weight to be saved with another wheelset and cassette.


    Erik
    Last edited by bedell99; 03-20-2012 at 03:07 PM.

  2. #2
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    Interesting! Thanks!
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  3. #3
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    Nice work!

  4. #4
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    I only ride tubeless... unless when I flat on the trail. Then I rock a tube for the rest of the ride!

    "Dream like you'll live forever.Live like you'll die today."
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedell99 View Post
    If you buy an Epic Comp and convert the wheels you will need either the blue roval tape or stans yellow tape. I went with the wider yellow tape.
    Nice Data
    However the red rim strip works just fine

  6. #6
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    Great post!

    I'm still up in the air about going tubless on my SWepic, so how much sealant is one "supposed to use"? Does the Stan's sealant bottle have a measurement? I think the biggest thing holding me back is the fact that the sealant is only good for a few months according to stans website. Plus I like running 35psi in my tires.

    Nice to see that you saved just over half a pound, very cool!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedell99 View Post
    I figured I would post this here because it was done with Specialized equipment. I did a full weight analysis on tubes versus tubeless.

    I used stock Roval wheels with HiLo hubs off a 2012 Epic Carbon Comp. Here are my findings.

    I meticulously weighed everything using a digital gram scale. For some reason their was red rim strips on my wheelset. I removed them and replaced with 25mm yellow tape. I also used a standard Stan's valve stem becasue you can remove the core. It worked great. It fit the rim profile perfectly

    Stock wheelset:
    Front with rotor, stock red rim strip, tube and S-works Fast track tire- 1775 grams
    S-works Fast Track tire- 519 grams
    Front with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem.-1067 grams
    Front with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, tire and sealant-1653 grams.

    I ended up puting 67 grams of sealant in the front tire.

    Reduced front wheel by 122 grams or 4.3 ounces.

    Rear with rotor, stock red rim strip, tube, cassette and Control Renegade 29x1.95 tire- 2319 grams
    Control Renegade 29x1.95 tire- 524 grams
    Rear with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, cassette.-1609 grams
    Front with rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, cassette, tire and sealant-2197 grams.

    I ended up puting 64 grams of sealant in the reart tire.

    Reduced rear wheel by 122 grams or 4.3 ounces.

    I would say my margin of error is less than 1%. Just by converting to tubeless I saved 244 grams or 8.6 ounces.

    Additional Notes- The new Fast Trak tire is the easiest tire I have set up. It would of probably held air with no sealant. It easy to get on the rim and bead popped on with little effort.

    If you buy an Epic Comp and convert the wheels you will need either the blue roval tape or stans yellow tape. I went with the wider yellow tape.

    Erik
    How many "scoops" of sealant does your gram measurements of usage equal???

  8. #8
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    EPICFSR, why do you like running 35 psi? If its because of stopping pinch flats, guess what? NO PINCH FLATS WITH TUBELESS! Running lower pressure hooks your tires to the dirt SO MUCH better. Typically i still run 25-28 psi rear and 22psi front. And stans gives a three month "expiration" like canned foods expire in a couple years. Those canned foods will actually last 10+ years (so long as you have no dents in the can)... you'll run out of stans because it'll get used before it "expires". I've ran only tubeless since 2005 in my mtn bikes.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyrides07 View Post
    EPICFSR, why do you like running 35 psi? If its because of stopping pinch flats, guess what? NO PINCH FLATS WITH TUBELESS! Running lower pressure hooks your tires to the dirt SO MUCH better. Typically i still run 25-28 psi rear and 22psi front. And stans gives a three month "expiration" like canned foods expire in a couple years. Those canned foods will actually last 10+ years (so long as you have no dents in the can)... you'll run out of stans because it'll get used before it "expires". I've ran only tubeless since 2005 in my mtn bikes.

    Thanks for the info!

    I run 35psi only because I don't like the feel of softer tires when running below 30psi, I get a sensation of feeling really slow when riding on the trails. And yes also because of pinch flats, I might just go a head and try it. Should I go with the stans removable valve stem and inject the sealer through the core by using there injector? If I were to run 30psi when converted to tubless would that be ok to do?

    My roval control SL wheels are already taped with the blue tape. Should I switch to the yellow stans?

  10. #10
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    Even when I have been on bikes set up as tubeless, I still like around 26-30psi to avoid rim damage in rockier terrain and to avoid the squishy/rolling-out-from-under-you feeling as well as burping air and sealant in faster, off-camber turns. I've not had a lot of tubeless miles but I have experienced all of these things when the pressures were lower than 25psi.

    Very good analysis, btw. Half a pound savings is about what I estimated.

    Oh, about running without sealant, most tires have some porosity and won't hold air w/o sealant for very long. Verified this by water tanking an aired tubeless without sealant. Small air bubbles began to form on the surface of the rubber immediately in portions of the sidewall. So, sealant is necessary. Plus it does it's job with small punctures on the trail.
    Last edited by Glide the Clyde; 03-11-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Thanks! great post!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambassadorhawg View Post
    How many "scoops" of sealant does your gram measurements of usage equal???
    I use the stans injector and put ~2oz or 60 ml. My wife has a single 2 ounce scoop that have used without her permission. This was one of the reasons I use the stans valve stems. It has a removable core and I don't make a mess.

    Erik

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malibu412 View Post
    Even when I have been on bikes set up as tubeless, I still like around 26-30psi to avoid rim damage in rockier terrain and to avoid the squishy/rolling-out-from-under-you feeling as well as burping air and sealant in faster, off-camber turns. I've not had a lot of tubeless miles but I have experienced all of these things when the pressures were lower than 25psi.

    Very good analysis, btw. Half a pound savings is about what I estimated.

    Oh, about running without sealant, most tires have some porosity and won't hold air w/o sealant for very long. Verified this by water tanking an aired tubeless without sealant. Small air bubbles began to form on the surface of the rubber immediately in portions of the sidewall. So, sealant is necessary. Plus it does it's job with small punctures on the trail.
    Thanks for the rep Malibu. The Renegade leaked like a seive and it took alot of shaking to get the side walls to seal. The Fast Trak sealed great. The sidewall where not porous at all. I use combination of dishwasher soap and water in a spray bottle on the bead to help the seating process. Plus you can see where air is escaping. It works real well.

    Erik

  14. #14
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    Great comparison!

    I have been still weighing the pros/cons of going tubeless. Have a few questios regarding sealant. Also know that time doesn't allow me to ride a lot.

    How often do you need to replace the sealant? How much of a pain is it to remove the old, dried up sealant? Could this dried up sealant "add up" to the point you no longer "lost weight"? Remember, nowadays I usually replace tires due to age, not being worn out.

    TY again for the time taken for this great comparison!
    Chris

  15. #15
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    Thanks bedell
    Weighed my ZTR Arch 29, 2.25 Racing Ralphs Evo Tubeless setup.
    I used Cheap Chinese Luggage scale, so hopefully its not completely off.

    Wholesale - WHA05 45Kg/10g Digital Scales LCD Display Luggage Hanging Fishing Weight Scale Portable Lot, Free shipping, $9.41-12.32/Piece, 10 pieces/Lot | DHgate.com

    Front with brake rotor, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, tire and 1.5 scoops sealant: 1695g
    Rear with brake rotor, XT 11-36 cassette, stans 25mm tape, 44mm stans tubeless stem, tire and 1.5 scoops sealant: 2245g

    I didn't weight the wheels prior to the conversion, but the Kenda inner-tubes I removed were 215g each !!!

  16. #16
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    What about rim strips? Both Stan's site and Specialized's toll-free customer support recommend using them to prevent burping. Tha's what's holding me back.

  17. #17
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    I'm pretty sure that Stan's ZTR rims doesn't need the rim strips - only the yellow tape.
    I also converted my Spesh SJ FSR Expert 29er's DT Swiss 520SL rims with Specialized 2bliss tires without the rim strip.

    Truth is that the DT Swiss did burp, and v I even crashed hard because of that, but when running higher enough pressure probably 30 lbs it works fine.

    I believe that the ZTR/Racing Ralph combo is less prone to burps compared to the DT Swiss/2bliss tires combo, but time will tell...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96m2comp View Post
    Great comparison!

    I have been still weighing the pros/cons of going tubeless. Have a few questios regarding sealant. Also know that time doesn't allow me to ride a lot.

    How often do you need to replace the sealant? How much of a pain is it to remove the old, dried up sealant? Could this dried up sealant "add up" to the point you no longer "lost weight"? Remember, nowadays I usually replace tires due to age, not being worn out.

    TY again for the time taken for this great comparison!
    Chris

    1. How often ?
    I believe that it depends on the weather, tire as well as other factors, but I guess that every 4-6 months

    2. How much pain ?
    Almost none.
    You can do it while the tire is in the stand - bike lifted so the tire doesn't touch the floor.
    After deflating, you just pop out the tire at one section (6 inches or so at the bottom of the wheel)
    see # 3 below regarding removal of the "odd ball"
    put 1.5 scoops of the sealant.
    Rotate the tire so the sealant is in the close portion of the tire.(bottom part to the floor = gravity)
    Pop the tire back in place, sing your hands or a lever.
    Use your Floor pump to re-inflate.
    Then it may be a good idea to remove the wheel from the bikes and shake it all around.
    Put soap water to see if there are any leaks and repeat the horizontal shaking.
    Once you do it, it shouldn't take more than 10 minutes per wheel.

    3. Removal of dry sealant.
    As explained above, do not remove the tire from the rim.
    But prior to adding the sealant, insert your hand into the area of the tire you opened and look for a dry rubbery like funny ball. That's what happens to the dry sealant.
    So there is no really accumulated weight each time you add sealant.

    Good luck

  19. #19
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    Thank's bedell99, Nice work on the tubleless weight analysis.

    Out west we have to deal with the dreaded "Goat head" thorns so most people run at the least a "Slime Tube" (which only slows down the leaks). So actually weight saving is even more than that of replacing a stock tube.

    With the new generation of "Tubeless Ready" tires I think we can only see more options when running tubeless.

  20. #20
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    I live in goathead territory and went all last season (feb to present) with zero flats and zero maintenance besides pumping up to 28psi before hitting the trails. I used to get more goatheads in the valley floor than up in the mountains. So far I would say tubeless conversion (stock dt wheels and 2bliss eskar tires on 2010 enduro comp) is both more reliable and lighter than slime. I'll never go back to tubes unless they make it obsolete somehow.

    Ps. My lbs mechanic said don't bother replacing old sealant until you notice leaks increasing, so the expiration date is definitely longer than a couple months. I've got a year on mine and still working well.

  21. #21
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    This is a little off topic, but someone did mention burping and crashing. I run 2Bliss tires tubeless on Roval wheels with the blue rim tape that came with the wheels. I weigh 153# and normally use 23-26psi in my tires. I love the grip this setup provides.

    While I have never experienced burping, I'd love to hear from people who have with Roval wheels and 2bliss tires. Is burping common?
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  22. #22
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    To spice things up a little bit, has anyone tried Foss tubes?

    foss.mpg - YouTube

    Lighter than normal tubes, puncture proof, easy to mend...
    $19 on dealextreme.com

  23. #23
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    I'm amazed that people DON'T run tubeless. Tubes just don't make sense.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by championp View Post
    I live in goathead territory and went all last season (feb to present) with zero flats and zero maintenance besides pumping up to 28psi before hitting the trails. I used to get more goatheads in the valley floor than up in the mountains. So far I would say tubeless conversion (stock dt wheels and 2bliss eskar tires on 2010 enduro comp) is both more reliable and lighter than slime. I'll never go back to tubes unless they make it obsolete somehow.

    Ps. My lbs mechanic said don't bother replacing old sealant until you notice leaks increasing, so the expiration date is definitely longer than a couple months. I've got a year on mine and still working well.
    champion,,,, did you use rim strips on your dt wheels? I just converted my dt swiss wheels and just used the yellow tape. Haven't tested them yet

  25. #25
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    Interesting to see this measured. I've been running tubeless since 2004 and LOVE it. Recently got an Arch ZTR up front w/ yellow tape and that made it even easier. I did run tubes for a little while this December and had multiple flats...honestly, I can't imagine why I'd ever want to run tubes again. Or why I'd want to ride with people who do!!!? Too much waiting around while someone fixes that Goathead hole or pinchflat.
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