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  1. #1
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    New question here. RP23 on a 2009 enduro SL???

    I'm not liking the stock shock on my '09 enduro sl carbon. I was wondering if anyone had swapped out their shock for an rp23. I really liked the shock that was on my titus ftm (rp23) and was thinking it would help out the bottoming I'm getting with the stock shock if I had it tuned by push.
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  2. #2
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    Are you buying a new RP23? or (assuming the sizes are the same) are you transferring from the Titus FTM?

    I ask because buying a new shock and then paying to have it tuned is going to be really expensive.

    I just put an Manitou Evolver ISX-6 on my 2007 Enduro SL. Only ridden it once so its not dialed yet but I used some ballpark settings from a thread here and its already a large improvement over the AFR on chatter bumps and it specifically has a volume adjustment to customize ramp up for bottoming, as well as low and high speed compression damping to further customize the shock's action. The Evolver is also known for its mid-stroke support which I can confirm. It rides much higher in its travel than the AFR.


    Check the "Where are the best deals?" section of the forum. A couple of weeks ago I posted a thread there with the deal that I found on the Evolver. The price is still good.

    I'm sure the RP23 is a great shock (never ridden one but it seems well liked). But I figure why pay so much when you can have the adjustments at your own fingertips?

  3. #3
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    Don't forget what makes the Enduro AFR shock and Futurshock fork high performance components, Spike Valve Technology. This is a high speed circuit that gives the bike excellent traction in large hits and rock gardens etc. To maintain small bump sensitivity keep the air sleeve seals cleaned and Greased and use the low speed compression adjust as needed. Slightly decreasing air spring volume will allow bottom out resistance to ramp quicker.
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  4. #4
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    The rp23 was going to be new and then sent to push.
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  5. #5
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    Did it and liked it

    I have a PUSH'ed RP23 on an 09 Enduro SL - huge difference over the AFR. Order it with the Big Hit kit.
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  6. #6
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    A properly set up AFR is better than an RP23 by far, ------you can change the valving in the RP23 and add a big bump stop for bottoming out to the RP23 to help it work ( which is what Push does ) ---this can also limit travel down which I don't like.

    The internal valving and the compression bleed and the spike valve are really way ahead of the RP23 ---------

    You can make any shock work if you know how to re-valve and make changes and or make a new piston and correct design problems that are out of parameters for a rider.

    The AFR is made way better and has alot of room for valving and can be suited to work better .

    As with any bike and shock , ----the set up is everything,--------If you are not keeping your negitive pressure alive , and not keeping the air sleeve lubed ---( which you also have to do on the RP23)

    The AFR will not work correctly -------nor will the RP23 ----,

    You can add a stronger bump stop to the AFR to aid in bottiming out if need be .



    Actually I just talked to Derrin at Push last week , ---and he is doing some AFR work now--( because it is a great shock and is well built ) and tops the fox all the way around

  7. #7
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    Talk to TF tuned. They are in England but they tune and service AFR's

    I plan on sending mine in pretty soon. They also do the E150. They can tune it to your liking.

    http://www.tftunedshox.com/default.aspx

  8. #8
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    Specialized is doing tuning now as well. I just had my E-150 and AFR tuned by them. I'll be making an initial post about it soon and doing follow ups after that as I ride more. I'll of course, need to bolt my AFR back on >_>

  9. #9
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    Can't have the bike down for two weeks while I'm wating on parts. I'd rather just order something, have it show up, and bolt it on.
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  10. #10
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    I did not know there was negative air in the AFR. Is that adjustable?

  11. #11
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    Negative air is 'Gulped' when sliding the air canister back on the shock body. The amount of negative spring air trapped is good for nearly all but the lightest of riders. There was mass confusion by people trying to 'tune' their negative spring settings, most riders eventually followed what I had originally recommend which is to periodically grease the seals and just thread the air can back on. Unless you are an extremely lightweight rider (135lbs or less) the negative spring air that is gulped will work well for you.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speci- Suspension Tech
    Negative air is 'Gulped' when sliding the air canister back on the shock body. The amount of negative spring air trapped is good for nearly all but the lightest of riders. There was mass confusion by people trying to 'tune' their negative spring settings, most riders eventually followed what I had originally recommend which is to periodically grease the seals and just thread the air can back on. Unless you are an extremely lightweight rider (135lbs or less) the negative spring air that is gulped will work well for you.
    is there any documentation for a step by step on how to do that?

  13. #13
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    I'm going to try a few of the things Speci- Suspension Tech has recomended to me first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    is there any documentation for a step by step on how to do that?
    there are several threads that Speci-Suspension Tech and myself have on here to help guys relise it does take some set up to make anything work correctly.

    I have added a schradder valve to the lower portion of one of my air sleeves so I can easily add and subtract negitive air .

    If you have not taken your air sleeve off you do not have negitive air in the sleeve and the sleeve is dry , ---and the upper bushing is way to tight in the shock body --------these all together will make for a harsh ride and a hard to dial shock .

    this little stuff makes a big difference in performance and feel !!

    Once you start getting your AFR dialed you will be amazed on how well it works

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    If your not confident in releasing the air pressure, unscrewing the air can off, cleaning/greasing the seals and getting it put back together, I highly recommend to have your dealer perform the basic air sleeve maintenance service, this service is recommended at least every 50 ride hours. The annual/150 ride hours full service is required to be performed by an authorized service center.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speci- Suspension Tech
    If your not confident in releasing the air pressure, unscrewing the air can off, cleaning/greasing the seals and getting it put back together, I highly recommend to have your dealer perform the basic air sleeve maintenance service, this service is recommended at least every 50 ride hours. The annual/150 ride hours full service is required to be performed by an authorized service center.
    Are you talking about the negative air pressure? I read one of your post's that said you actually reccomend having the negative air pressure. Is this what you reccomend? Thanks

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    Are you talking about the negative air pressure? I read one of your post's that said you actually reccomend having the negative air pressure. Is this what you reccomend? Thanks
    Yes he is -------by taking off you air sleeve and putting it back on all greased up you now a trapped negitive air

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    I thought Speci Tech said that was actually a good thing in their opinion?

  19. #19
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    Having air pressure in the negative spring chamber is a good thing. I do not recommend bleeding the pressure out. The negative spring air pressure is 'gulped' as you slide the air sleeve back on.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speci- Suspension Tech
    Having air pressure in the negative spring chamber is a good thing. I do not recommend bleeding the pressure out. The negative spring air pressure is 'gulped' as you slide the air sleeve back on.
    Great. Thank you!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    I thought Speci Tech said that was actually a good thing in their opinion?
    Yes it can be very good , -----that is what you are doing by taking your air sleeve off and then reinstalling it ---------you are trapping negitive air in the negitive side ,

    when these shocks are built , all of the negitive air is bled out , ----this makes for a great pedaling platform for XC type of riding -------but it adds alot of antisquat right when the shock is topped out and makes the ride harsh ------( not to mention the upper shock eye bushing is real tight and binds the suspension up adding more stiction )

    This is whay I added a schradder valve in my sleeve at the negitive chamber ---------I have actually found I like alot of negitive air ------more negitive air that you can trap by just taking your air sleeve on and off.

    On one of my AFR shocks that I built a different piston for and changed the threshold on where the spike valve opens and how much it flows ------I do not run any negitive air in my negitive side -----I bleed it all out .

    So negitive air is just on area to help tune the ride ,---------getting the bushings to move freely is another area that need to be addressed .

    Finding out what air pressure in the positive side works the best for you can take some time , ---------- then working with different fork tube height changing the HTangle is another ( e-150 forks )---------and of course how the fork is tuned will affect the shock , and the shock will affect the fork --------and then the tires ----( tubeless is the only way to go for feel and lower pressures ) ----------its a whole packedge deal with many peices of the puzzle working together

    So when you get a guy that thinks he is going to buy any old shock and throw it on his bike and think it will be good , ----------he is in for a big suprise
    Last edited by kelstr; 12-02-2009 at 09:36 AM.

  22. #22
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    What did you do to the bushings ro make them rotate better? I already lost the special nut on the rocker that holds the bolt on the top of the shock. I did'nt like the way it was binding so I backed it off some and ended up losing it some where on the first ride. Have one on order and plan to either lock tight it or drill and tap the rocker for a set screw on the bolt head.
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  23. #23
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    We have new style of reducers that we started using on our 09 shocks that have less friction.
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  24. #24
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    Speci Tech, what is the small set screw for on top of the shock near the adjusters?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible
    What did you do to the bushings ro make them rotate better? I already lost the special nut on the rocker that holds the bolt on the top of the shock. I did'nt like the way it was binding so I backed it off some and ended up losing it some where on the first ride. Have one on order and plan to either lock tight it or drill and tap the rocker for a set screw on the bolt head.
    ------Dont drill and tap a set screw on the upper rocker -----the bolt has to crush the shock spacers and clamp the sleeve between them so it will be solid and make the sleeve rotate in the shock bushing .
    You can not run the bolt loose because the sleeve will spin on the bolt and tear up the bolt and knock and click and have play and ruin the rocker.

    You push out the upper sleeve and chuck the sleeve in a lathe and polish it down about .0005 thou and get the sleeve where it just pushes nice in the upper bushing in the shock eye .

    Actually on the ones I do here I make a new sleeve out of oil light bronz , and I cut oil groves in the sleeve so it will hold grease , ----I make the sleeve fit just nice and it holds grease and the thing moves so smoothly its just nice -----that way the upper bolt can be tightened to the 140" lbs that it should be .
    I also make a new upper bolt and nut ---------the stock speci bolt and nut are soft and don't work for many removal and installs before they fail ,-----I also cut an 8MM allen socket pocket for the bolt side ------the 6MM can strip easy and i prefer an 8 .

    The oil light bronz is great for this application

    Also when you order that special bols and nut for your upper shock -----you have to buy a bolt kit -----they are like $70 dollars here in the states.

  26. #26
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    I assume you are referring to the set screw for the adjusters.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    Speci Tech, what is the small set screw for on top of the shock near the adjusters?
    It will add pressure on a spring and ball and make the red rebound knob harder to move in the detents------once I found my perfect setting on rebound I ran my set screw down so I could not move the knob easily ( like when I crash and my knee of foot goes into the shock it can not change the setting on the rebound ) -----and of course I have my setting marked with a sharpie marker so at a glance I know Im where I need to be !!!------

    Its a great setting to have -------some shocks you can not set this detent tension setting and the dam adjustements move while riding -------really sucks

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    ------Dont drill and tap a set screw on the upper rocker -----the bolt has to crush the shock spacers and clamp the sleeve between them so it will be solid and make the sleeve rotate in the shock bushing .
    You can not run the bolt loose because the sleeve will spin on the bolt and tear up the bolt and knock and click and have play and ruin the rocker.

    You push out the upper sleeve and chuck the sleeve in a lathe and polish it down about .0005 thou and get the sleeve where it just pushes nice in the upper bushing in the shock eye .

    Actually on the ones I do here I make a new sleeve out of oil light bronz , and I cut oil groves in the sleeve so it will hold grease , ----I make the sleeve fit just nice and it holds grease and the thing moves so smoothly its just nice -----that way the upper bolt can be tightened to the 140" lbs that it should be .
    I also make a new upper bolt and nut ---------the stock speci bolt and nut are soft and don't work for many removal and installs before they fail ,-----I also cut an 8MM allen socket pocket for the bolt side ------the 6MM can strip easy and i prefer an 8 .

    The oil light bronz is great for this application

    Also when you order that special bols and nut for your upper shock -----you have to buy a bolt kit -----they are like $70 dollars here in the states.
    You are out of your mind!

  29. #29
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    You push out the upper sleeve and chuck the sleeve in a lathe and polish it down about .0005 thou and get the sleeve where it just pushes nice in the upper bushing in the shock eye .
    That's a good idea. I'll break out the brasso and polish it up after the ride tonight.

    Also when you order that special bols and nut for your upper shock -----you have to buy a bolt kit -----they are like $70 dollars here in the states
    yeah the boss was thinking the same thing. That really sucks but I guess I could use the other bolts for odds and ends.
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible
    That's a good idea. I'll break out the brasso and polish it up after the ride tonight.



    yeah the boss was thinking the same thing. That really sucks but I guess I could use the other bolts for odds and ends.
    I will say , the bolt kit from Specialized is a great kit and it does have all the little goofy fasteners that a guy needs , the kit is really put together nice .

    Its just that most of the time I can not sell it to a customer for $70 dollars when he just needs one bolt and nut .

    so most of the time I just make the bolt and nut that I need -------------If I really had to charge the guy true shop labor and material it would be way more than $70

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    I need an answer from somebody that really "knows" the answer. It is not possilbe to have both of the following: an eye to eye distance of 7-15/16 inches for shock length AND negative air pressure. I have dinked around with my AFR under every negative air pressure possible (I bleed alittle and I bleed alot of negative air) but if there is any negative air pressure the eye to eye distance at best will be 7-5/8 inches. This is with 250 psi in the positive air chamber, and the shock fully lubed.

    So which is it,short shock and negative air, or full length shock and no negative air? I have literally done this 10 times and you cannot have full length and negative air.


    Speci-suspension tech explain it to me real slow becasue I am missing something in the servicing process of the AFR shock. If Specialized assembles the shock with full negative air, then what is the eye to eye distance of the assembled shock?

  32. #32
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    The negative spring air pressure plays an important function in air suspension. For the AFR Enduro shock I have always suggested leaving the full amount in for all but extremely lightweight riders. Having an adjustable negative spring is needed more in tuning fork function.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by soliver
    I need an answer from somebody that really "knows" the answer. It is not possilbe to have both of the following: an eye to eye distance of 7-15/16 inches for shock length AND negative air pressure. I have dinked around with my AFR under every negative air pressure possible (I bleed alittle and I bleed alot of negative air) but if there is any negative air pressure the eye to eye distance at best will be 7-5/8 inches. This is with 250 psi in the positive air chamber, and the shock fully lubed.

    So which is it,short shock and negative air, or full length shock and no negative air? I have literally done this 10 times and you cannot have full length and negative air.


    Speci-suspension tech explain it to me real slow becasue I am missing something in the servicing process of the AFR shock. If Specialized assembles the shock with full negative air, then what is the eye to eye distance of the assembled shock?
    Yup... Just had the same problem yesterday. While I have yet to ride the bike with no negative air, it certainly feels more like a pogo stick than it did before. I'd like to know where the happy balance is, because fully loaded with negative air, the shock's stroke seems to be significantly reduced - far more than before I did the service.

    Input?

  34. #34
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    I had the same problem. So what I did was bleed about half the air out using the straw method. Its as easy as bleeding the air out untill you get the aircan half way up the shaft and then removing the straw. And then just continue without the straw, trapping the neg air that is left. I have had great results with this method. The shock is operating the best it ever has. I am getting good small bump and good end stroke ramp up. The shock now has an almost coil feel. I was going to swap it for something else but have decided to stick with it. It is all about experimentation. With half of the neg air trapped you should not experience a shorter stroke from the shock getting stuck down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    Yup... Just had the same problem yesterday. While I have yet to ride the bike with no negative air, it certainly feels more like a pogo stick than it did before. I'd like to know where the happy balance is, because fully loaded with negative air, the shock's stroke seems to be significantly reduced - far more than before I did the service.

    Input?
    Can't you just adjust the rebound damping?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speci- Suspension Tech
    The negative spring air pressure plays an important function in air suspension. For the AFR Enduro shock I have always suggested leaving the full amount in for all but extremely lightweight riders. Having an adjustable negative spring is needed more in tuning fork function.
    with keeping the negative air it shortens the shock. It only got close to full extension when I put 200psi in it. Is it ok to run the shock shorter because that is the case with negative air in it. Thanks

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    Can't you just adjust the rebound damping?
    Yes, but I need to run nearly twice as much (about 6-8 clicks from full fast). And the feel is still quite different. However, that being said, I'm not convinced it's a bad new feeling. It almost feels like small bump absorption will be better. Haven't had it on the trails yet.

    Sorry for completely hijacking this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    with keeping the negative air it shortens the shock. It only got close to full extension when I put 200psi in it. Is it ok to run the shock shorter because that is the case with negative air in it. Thanks
    Yes, of course, but you lose travel...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    Yes, but I need to run nearly twice as much (about 6-8 clicks from full fast). And the feel is still quite different. However, that being said, I'm not convinced it's a bad new feeling. It almost feels like small bump absorption will be better. Haven't had it on the trails yet.

    Sorry for completely hijacking this thread.
    No prob man. I did this last night and opted to bleed negative and have full shock extension rather than negative air and shorter shock. My shock was never opened before and there was 0 negative air from the factory. Like I said, I opted to run it as it came from the factory as it was never a problem. I've had shocks with negative air in them before and to be honest, never really felt a big difference. I come from an MX background and just never really feel changes in my MTB suspension. On the MX bike I could feel the changes as the speeds were higher, 200lb bike etc. Take that for what it's worth I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    Yes, of course, but you lose travel...
    I just said that

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    Quote Originally Posted by soliver
    I need an answer from somebody that really "knows" the answer. It is not possilbe to have both of the following: an eye to eye distance of 7-15/16 inches for shock length AND negative air pressure. I have dinked around with my AFR under every negative air pressure possible (I bleed alittle and I bleed alot of negative air) but if there is any negative air pressure the eye to eye distance at best will be 7-5/8 inches. This is with 250 psi in the positive air chamber, and the shock fully lubed.

    So which is it,short shock and negative air, or full length shock and no negative air? I have literally done this 10 times and you cannot have full length and negative air.


    Speci-suspension tech explain it to me real slow becasue I am missing something in the servicing process of the AFR shock. If Specialized assembles the shock with full negative air, then what is the eye to eye distance of the assembled shock?
    When the shock is new , there is NO NEGITIVE air in the negitive side of the sleeve at all.
    That is why I went through and explained the process of servicing the sleeve and explaining to people how to return the shock to stock form by bleeding off the negitive air, some guys that use the bike in more of a XC type of format and that live and ride in areas that have smooth XC type of trails will prefer this stock NO NEGATIVE air feel-----it adds alot of antisquat affect to the pedaling platform.

    I also explained on how to trap some negitive air and still have the shock stay at the stock 7-15/16 to 7.75 inch range .

    If you leave the black "O" off from under the air sleeve and bleed about 1/2 the negitive air off when assemblining the sleeve you will trap a larger volume of air and still be able to have your shock at stock length .
    Trapping the negitive air really does help the small bump and mid stroke harshness on trails that are all hacked up with rocks , ledges and trail trash -----------( the Horst Link four bar suspension is still efficient enough to pedal great with the reduced antisquat from the added negitive air -------------infact I have grown to really like the feel ------it climbs nasty hacky tech crap way better that without negitive air )
    I have made a sleeve that holds a schradder valve that goes on the lower portion of the stock air sleeve that enables me to add and or subtract negitive air at will ---------The sleeve that I made has a volume in itself that doubbles the amount of negitive air trapped and does not affect the stock length of the shock ---------I have found this to be a neet little tuning tool.
    ( Im sure you guys have all see the doubble schradder forks and shocks for years , ------negitive air is very usefull and has been done for 75 years in suspension )
    I also will trap a full load of negitive air with the "O" ring and loose 4mm of shock travell for the guys running on some nasty DH trails out here and the bike really works very well this way, ----
    and the bike still pedals fine .

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    Yup... Just had the same problem yesterday. While I have yet to ride the bike with no negative air, it certainly feels more like a pogo stick than it did before. I'd like to know where the happy balance is, because fully loaded with negative air, the shock's stroke seems to be significantly reduced - far more than before I did the service.

    Input?
    You mean you have yet to ride the bike " with negitive air " ------the bike came stock with no negitive air .

    Anyway -----by leaving the "O" ring off from under the sleeve and bleeding about 1/2 the negitive air off you can run get the length back on the shock and trap some negitive air,-----most of those when stock were at 7.75 to 7.80 " --------there were some at 7-15/16",--------I actually have one thats 7-15/16 --------and I have one thats 7.75 .

    Its kinda funny ----if you run the numbers on the motion ratio and the travel in the shock with the bottom out bumper smashed you actually get 156 mm of travel with the 7.75" shock -----so the bike actually has alittle over 6" of travel with the shorter shock -------so its all good .

    Its just finding the feel you need for what your style and terrain of trail is , ------and everybody is different .

    If its really a pogo stick ----you may have alittle to much negitive air -------------but you gotta ride it see how it performs on the trail for you .

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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    with keeping the negative air it shortens the shock. It only got close to full extension when I put 200psi in it. Is it ok to run the shock shorter because that is the case with negative air in it. Thanks
    If you leave off the black "O" ring under the sleeve and bleed 1/2 the negitive air off you can get the length of the shock back and have the advantages of better small bumb feel and traction because of having negitive air .---( It does not take much negitive air to make a big difference )

    so negitive air will not shorten the shock if you understand how it needs to be done ,-------and actually when i do use a full load of negitive air in a shock and leave the "O" ring and loose 4mm of travel --------the bike actually works really good if your on nasty steep DH hack and rock beds -----.

    so there is no right or wrong , its just what it takes to get the bike working for you !

    And if you do not try all the different set ups you will never know .

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    You mean you have yet to ride the bike " with negitive air " ------the bike came stock with no negitive air .
    I find this hard to believe. There is NO QUESTION you know your stuff when it comes to these components, but admittedly the shock feels much different now (with no neg. air) than it did before. And I'm positive that it had little to do with the service itself, since when I opened the shock, it was clean and still heavily lubricated. Either way, I'm going to do some experimenting.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    Anyway -----by leaving the "O" ring off from under the sleeve and bleeding about 1/2 the negitive air off you can run get the length back on the shock and trap some negitive air,-----most of those when stock were at 7.75 to 7.80 " --------there were some at 7-15/16",--------I actually have one thats 7-15/16 --------and I have one thats 7.75 .

    Its kinda funny ----if you run the numbers on the motion ratio and the travel in the shock with the bottom out bumper smashed you actually get 156 mm of travel with the 7.75" shock -----so the bike actually has alittle over 6" of travel with the shorter shock -------so its all good .

    Its just finding the feel you need for what your style and terrain of trail is , ------and everybody is different .

    If its really a pogo stick ----you may have alittle to much negitive air -------------but you gotta ride it see how it performs on the trail for you .
    Very very very helpful information. Thanks!

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    If you leave off the black "O" ring under the sleeve and bleed 1/2 the negitive air off you can get the length of the shock back and have the advantages of better small bumb feel and traction because of having negitive air.
    Will this cause any damage if the shock does experience a hard bottom out? It seems like there will be nothing to absorb the hit...

  46. #46
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    (Apologies, once again, to "terrible" for completely hijacking your thread...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    Will this cause any damage if the shock does experience a hard bottom out? It seems like there will be nothing to absorb the hit...
    Actually this Black "O" ring is just an "area filler-stuffer " ------to try and take up space to help no air ramp up to some kind of negitive air to help out when the shock "TOPS OUT" on rebound -------but it did not work out so well .

    The bottom out bumper for compression in under the upper eye clevis sandwitched inbetween two stainless shims -------you can see it if you look when you have the air sleeve off ,-----
    so no this "O" ring really is not a big deal -----------when you run negitive air in the sleeve this more that controlles any rebound wallow you might encounter ---------------------you have to run your rebound on like 1 or totally open to get any quick rebound wallow , ----and the bike almost can't be ridden unless you at least have the rebound set at 3 in from all open , -------infact that is where i run my rebound ----3 in from all open -----------

    2 is to fast and 4 packs for me ------------------3 is just right for me

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    (Apologies, once again, to "terrible" for completely hijacking your thread...)
    No biggie , -----these threads just have a life of their own

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    If you leave off the black "O" ring under the sleeve and bleed 1/2 the negitive air off you can get the length of the shock back and have the advantages of better small bumb feel and traction because of having negitive air .---( It does not take much negitive air to make a big difference )

    so negitive air will not shorten the shock if you understand how it needs to be done ,-------and actually when i do use a full load of negitive air in a shock and leave the "O" ring and loose 4mm of travel --------the bike actually works really good if your on nasty steep DH hack and rock beds -----.

    so there is no right or wrong , its just what it takes to get the bike working for you !

    And if you do not try all the different set ups you will never know .
    I had no problem keeping the 57. whatever MM of stroke by bleeding half of the air out. I didnt even have to mess with the O ring. Ive found that bleeding out half of the neg air is the best way to tune my shock. Im about 195lbs geared up and the rear end works fantastic. I have enough platform so to speak for grindy climbs. But I also have awesome SB and Ramp up.

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    Uhhh!!!! Just picked up a 07 SL and read through this post to get some ideas for tuning up my suspension.... but this is WAY over my head. Any online resources (hopefully with pics or vids) that might help me visualize all that Im reading? Regardless, much respect of the knowledge being thrown around, talk about doing your homework

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancidmeat1
    Uhhh!!!! Just picked up a 07 SL and read through this post to get some ideas for tuning up my suspension.... but this is WAY over my head. Any online resources (hopefully with pics or vids) that might help me visualize all that Im reading? Regardless, much respect of the knowledge being thrown around, talk about doing your homework
    It's really not difficult. It's getting way overdone here. Look back at this thread and there are pics to help. I did it and it only took about 20 minutes and it is very easy to do

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    I thought this thread was about putting an RP23 on an Enduro SL?

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancidmeat1
    Uhhh!!!! Just picked up a 07 SL...ideas for tuning up my suspension....
    Is y our SL new or used?

    If its new, you should take it to a Specialized dealer and ask them to get the warranty upgrade for the E-150 internals and the AFR shock is a whole new unit.

    If its used, ask whoever you bought it from if this was done. If it was, cool. If not, then you should ask a Specialized dealer about paying for it. You could probably get some of the custom tuning options at the same time.


    then have a look at Speci-Suspension Tech's profile
    http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?u=366228

    he has links to most of the better threads for doing your own tuning and maintenance.

  54. #54
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    Still great info, even though it has nothing to do with an rp23 You did probably save me a few hundred dollars too.
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible
    Still great info, even though it has nothing to do with an rp23 You did probably save me a few hundred dollars too.
    Awesome

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible
    Still great info, even though it has nothing to do with an rp23 You did probably save me a few hundred dollars too.
    Oh. In that case, I revoke my apology for hijacking your thread.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chameleoneel
    Is y our SL new or used?

    If its new, you should take it to a Specialized dealer and ask them to get the warranty upgrade for the E-150 internals and the AFR shock is a whole new unit.

    If its used, ask whoever you bought it from if this was done. If it was, cool. If not, then you should ask a Specialized dealer about paying for it. You could probably get some of the custom tuning options at the same time.


    then have a look at Speci-Suspension Tech's profile
    http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?u=366228

    he has links to most of the better threads for doing your own tuning and maintenance.
    Its used, and yeah, the e150 and afr had their internals replaced awhile ago according to the guy I bought it from. Im loving the bike but I have noticed that the afr doesnt do much when it comes to absorbing the smaller bumps. Right now Im trying to get the front and rear dialed in. Regardless it still rides great, but I feel their is room for improvement.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18
    I had no problem keeping the 57. whatever MM of stroke by bleeding half of the air out. I didnt even have to mess with the O ring. Ive found that bleeding out half of the neg air is the best way to tune my shock. Im about 195lbs geared up and the rear end works fantastic. I have enough platform so to speak for grindy climbs. But I also have awesome SB and Ramp up.
    Isn't it amazing what alittle bit of negitive spring will do for the small bumb and mid stroke harshness------------------just that little bit of spring to help get the initial travel moving on each compression stroke makes all the difference in the world ----------------it makes an air shock feel like a spring shock.

    Then you run some big volume tires tubeless and run them low pressure and wow weeeee, the dam thing just comes alive and begs to rip off ladders, jump doubbles ,tables and just slam through huge rock gardens -----------------------and the horst link still enables the dam thing to pedal and climb like a goat !!

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    wow.. just checked out the fork service tutorial that speci tech has in his profile... super detailed and really helpful. I have very little knowledge when it comes to bike repair, but that laid it out in terms that even I can follow. Thanks for the huge wealth of info. Im looking forward to taking my enduro to the next level.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancidmeat1
    Uhhh!!!! Just picked up a 07 SL and read through this post to get some ideas for tuning up my suspension.... but this is WAY over my head. Any online resources (hopefully with pics or vids) that might help me visualize all that Im reading? Regardless, much respect of the knowledge being thrown around, talk about doing your homework
    Welcome
    Glad you got one of these things , you will find alot of info in this sight and you will love your bike the more you ride the dam thing-------------( its cool you got the e-150 also ------I really love the way this thing is ridged like a duell crown should be ---but actually light also )

    This air sleeve service , and getting a bushing to work freely is really very very simple stuff, ----
    The fork is easy to disassemble , rebuild the cartridges and lube up -------its all no big deal.

    I have access to many different bikes , I get test bikes all the time to re-valve, change shock length or change linckedge on or something -------weld something broke on or what ever-------and I ride this Enduro because to me it really works for me .
    The only bike that feels about the same to me in a DW spot with a 7" 66 on the ft --------I gotta say that both these bikes are dam neer the same in every way .

    ( and actually the spot was hard to keep the ft end down and shook its head on really steep climbs----but don't ever tell the turner guys I said that -------I ride with a bunch of them and they are alittle thin skined )

    anyway --------have fun on your new bike

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    So I went to adjust my fork and when I hooked up my shock pump to the left side, lubricant came out. Is this normal or does it indicate incorrect servicing in the past or a fork malfunction. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr

    and the horst link still enables the dam thing to pedal and climb like a goat !!

    Not with flat tires

    JK!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancidmeat1
    So I went to adjust my fork and when I hooked up my shock pump to the left side, lubricant came out. Is this normal or does it indicate incorrect servicing in the past or a fork malfunction. Thanks
    Perfectly Normal. Turning your bike upside down while you air up your fork will stop the oil from coming out. Either way, it isnt an issue. My 36 Talas does it.

  64. #64
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    Yeah its normal. It shouldn't be a lot though. Just a tiny amount. I typically use a papertowel to unscrew the shock pump just in case some of the oil ever manage to spray toward my brake rotor.

  65. #65
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    Just buy the RP23. Maybe the AFR shock does ride better after 100 hours of "tuning", but the factory settings on the RP23 are 10 times better than the factory settings of the AFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitek79
    Just buy the RP23. Maybe the AFR shock does ride better after 100 hours of "tuning", but the factory settings on the RP23 are 10 times better than the factory settings of the AFR.
    I like your style

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    ------Dont drill and tap a set screw on the upper rocker -----the bolt has to crush the shock spacers and clamp the sleeve between them so it will be solid and make the sleeve rotate in the shock bushing .
    You can not run the bolt loose because the sleeve will spin on the bolt and tear up the bolt and knock and click and have play and ruin the rocker.

    You push out the upper sleeve and chuck the sleeve in a lathe and polish it down about .0005 thou and get the sleeve where it just pushes nice in the upper bushing in the shock eye .


    Actually on the ones I do here I make a new sleeve out of oil light bronz , and I cut oil groves in the sleeve so it will hold grease , ----I make the sleeve fit just nice and it holds grease and the thing moves so smoothly its just nice -----that way the upper bolt can be tightened to the 140" lbs that it should be .
    I also make a new upper bolt and nut ---------the stock speci bolt and nut are soft and don't work for many removal and installs before they fail ,-----I also cut an 8MM allen socket pocket for the bolt side ------the 6MM can strip easy and i prefer an 8 .

    The oil light bronz is great for this application

    Also when you order that special bols and nut for your upper shock -----you have to buy a bolt kit -----they are like $70 dollars here in the states.

    I mean seriously, how many people have this equipment, have knowledge of this equipment, and have time to do all the crap???? Who makes a shock that requires this much effort to ride nice???

    Spend the money on the RP23 and then actually have time to RIDE your bike.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitek79
    I mean seriously, how many people have this equipment, have knowledge of this equipment, and have time to do all the crap???? Who makes a shock that requires this much effort to ride nice???

    Spend the money on the RP23 and then actually have time to RIDE your bike.
    Hard to argue with that.

  69. #69
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    Where can I buy the rp23 that fits the enduro sl? I have a hard time finding it in the 63.5mm (2.5") 222.3mm (8.75") size!?

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    ... and if we just ... Hear, hear!

    Someone finally said what I have been thinking while reading through this thread - WHY? The RP23 is a set it and forget it shock; you can ride it a long time before you need an air sleeve service, and it works great - espeically if it is PUSH'ed.
    The reason dogs have so many friends is that they wag their tail instead of their tongues.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by V.P.
    Where can I buy the rp23 that fits the enduro sl? I have a hard time finding it in the 63.5mm (2.5") 222.3mm (8.75") size!?
    Fox and Derrin at Push has them ------( You can mod the shocks to what ever length you want if you know whats going on )-------------and you better have it valved for the Enduro if you want it even close ,--------and then because it does not have the spike valve you can either have it mushey or you gotta run the PP on ,----( I just love the AFR ---set it and go )
    The 2010 RP23 with the boost valve is your best bet , ----of course a correctly mantained and set up AFR is really the way to go

  72. #72
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    I put an rp23 on my pitch. I don't mean to get off track, but do they usually leak a bit of oil? I understand that during break in they will, but I've had it since July and ride a few times a week.

    Oh and I can't comment on the specialized shock, but the rp23 is sweet! Ran it with a bit too much pressure for a while, but just got the sag dialed (using the handy sag meter), and it rides real nice. Like you're riding on a cloud.
    It's a good time for good times

  73. #73
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    If the AFR shock is such an amazing shock, why aren't they still making it?

    I had an Enduro and was never super happy with the AFR, plus I had lots of warranty issues. In that time we bought my wife a Pitch with and RP2, and I liked the way it peddled and descended better than my AFR. I found a used RP23 and slapped it on the Enduro before I sold the bike, and it was a much better shock, which is why Spec quit making it I would say.

  74. #74
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    I was considering buying a new bike because of how much I disliked the AFR. Coming from a Giant VT2 (amazing rear end) and hearing so long about FSR, I couldn't believe how very average the rear performed. A shame too, because I love everything else about the 07-08 enduro.

    Now that I've got the Evovler on there-----this is what I've been left wanting for so long and I will probably have this bike for a very long time.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by chameleoneel
    I was considering buying a new bike because of how much I disliked the AFR. Coming from a Giant VT2 (amazing rear end) and hearing so long about FSR, I couldn't believe how very average the rear performed. A shame too, because I love everything else about the 07-08 enduro.

    Now that I've got the Evovler on there-----this is what I've been left wanting for so long and I will probably have this bike for a very long time.
    The Enduro SL is such a great bike --------I know I will run mine for along time , ----I feel bad for all the guys that can not see how well the AFR works or understand how to tune it, ------Fox has problems to with their shocks -------all the companys will have problems from time to time ,------

    Its funny the new fox stuff is using some of the valving technology thats in the AFR and other future shocks componets.

    I tell you the AFR is a well built unit with great design in it .

    I have a new Elka in here and a new RP23 that do not work at all ---and the fox unit has been back twice before he brought it to me to fix ----------

    Im glad you got something on your bike to keep you riding and loving it

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitek79
    I mean seriously, how many people have this equipment, have knowledge of this equipment, and have time to do all the crap???? Who makes a shock that requires this much effort to ride nice???

    Spend the money on the RP23 and then actually have time to RIDE your bike.
    I do this little repair on all different shocks , ------Fox has some of the worst bushings and reducers in the business -----------I just built a set of oil light bushings for two fox shocks this week.

    And I am a firm believer that every man on the planet should have at least one lathe, one mill and several different welders .

    And at least one if not two automotive hoists to do his auto mods and work on .

    Hell I just built a new "FIT" body to hold the bladder correctly and keep it from blowing out the bladder in a Fox 40.--( the fox 40's all do this if you do not redesign the cartridge )

    All the suspension , chassis and more on bikes all need to be repaired correctly ,--------I also build and mod MX bikes for the national riders , --------if you really want to dial something in or really make something work , you will ecqire the tooling to correctly get the job done .

    There is not a day that goes buy I don't sit down at a welder and run my lathe or mill to correct something ,
    I don't see how any of these so called shops can get buy without these basic tools .

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitek79
    If the AFR shock is such an amazing shock, why aren't they still making it?

    I had an Enduro and was never super happy with the AFR, plus I had lots of warranty issues. In that time we bought my wife a Pitch with and RP2, and I liked the way it peddled and descended better than my AFR. I found a used RP23 and slapped it on the Enduro before I sold the bike, and it was a much better shock, which is why Spec quit making it I would say.
    Yes its still made , you can still buy it , ---you will get the 5 year warranty on it -------just because a company has an independent vender that made some assembly errors does not mean the design or componet in bad ,

    You should see all of the so called cool stuff I get that I have to repair and re-engineer to work correctly.

    Ever try to make a Fox Triad shock work and not leak out the adjuster .
    Ever try to make a Fox 40 not blow the bladder out the bottom of the cartridge .
    Ever try to make a marzocci roco shock work at all .
    Ever try to make a Lyric 2 step actually fuction and stay working .
    Don't even get me started on all the work i have to do on the fox 36 TALAS fork when they quickly fail.
    I mean its not just the AFR -----its anything ------you gotta be smarter than what you are working on and get her dialed and working ---------its not a big deal -------its just alittle american engineuity and fortitude with the want and drive to succeed

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ORwoodsrider
    I put an rp23 on my pitch. I don't mean to get off track, but do they usually leak a bit of oil? I understand that during break in they will, but I've had it since July and ride a few times a week.

    Oh and I can't comment on the specialized shock, but the rp23 is sweet! Ran it with a bit too much pressure for a while, but just got the sag dialed (using the handy sag meter), and it rides real nice. Like you're riding on a cloud.
    I have had several RP2 and RP23's that will leak out the air sleeve seal assembly ,-------when the fox is new they really gulp the negitive side air full and they add oil in the positive and negitive side and this will aid in pushing oil and slick honey out.

    You can get a new air can seal kit for $25.0 and reassemble the shock with slick honey and do not add oil in either side and you will be fine ----------I get these all the time like this ---no big deal

  79. #79
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    Thanks for the help Kel!
    It's a good time for good times

  80. #80
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    I don't see how any of these so called shops can get buy without these basic tools .
    First off how's the view way up there on that horse? Second, I don't get paid to make parts for bikes so there is no way I can afford those kind of tools. I'm a simple construction worker who likes to ride his bike.

    That being said, when a guy plops down 5500$ for a bike it better not need a damn thing to make it ride the way he wants it to. I shouldn't even think about buying parts for this bike.

    I appreciate your knowledge and I respect that you can do all these cool things but you have to respect some peoples need for bolt-on solutions. Not all of us (I've never met anyone in person that rides bikes) have lathes and mills and presses or THE TIME to use them.

    I'm just looking for something to fix a problem. Now my shock isn't holding air either. It looks like I'm going to have to buy something as I don't have time to wait for warranty. Unless they'll ship something to the shop before mine gets back to them?
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

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    Check where the air leak is coming from by dunking under water. If from the valve core either tighten it a bit or replace it. If the leak isn't obvious under water it may be a dry air sleeve seal, get some fresh grease on the seal. If an air sleeve seal is knicked order an air sleeve kit.
    Visit my profile for Links to:

    Performance Guarantee, Service, Setup, E150 Maintenance....

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible
    First off how's the view way up there on that horse? Second, I don't get paid to make parts for bikes so there is no way I can afford those kind of tools. I'm a simple construction worker who likes to ride his bike.

    That being said, when a guy plops down 5500$ for a bike it better not need a damn thing to make it ride the way he wants it to. I shouldn't even think about buying parts for this bike.

    I appreciate your knowledge and I respect that you can do all these cool things but you have to respect some peoples need for bolt-on solutions. Not all of us (I've never met anyone in person that rides bikes) have lathes and mills and presses or THE TIME to use them.

    I'm just looking for something to fix a problem. Now my shock isn't holding air either. It looks like I'm going to have to buy something as I don't have time to wait for warranty. Unless they'll ship something to the shop before mine gets back to them?
    I did not mean to come off like an a$$ ----sorry if it offended you .
    I have just learned in life that if you want something done correctly you had better be able to do it for yourself ------------I started collecting tooling at a very early age .
    In my day you had to do it yourself if you wanted it done at all, and I have had a happier better life because I do not need to depend on anybody to get something done and I really like to see younger people learn how importaint being self suffecient is .

    Anyway ------Speci-Suspension Tech is right on the money , its almost always a schradder valve or just a dry air sleeve seal ---------real simple fix you could do very quickly.

    use your sink to check where the leak is and fix it ------------that way you can ride !!

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    I know it's a simple fix, I don't doubt that. I've pulled shocks apart before to replace air seals, swap cartridges in forks, change fluids,blah,blah. My point is I shouldn't have to do that after six rides and under 100 miles! This thing costs the average guy over 5 grand, and now he has to work on it? How is that great or a good design? I don't give a crap how well it rides when it works right if it doesn't work right 99% of the time for that kind of money.
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    Yes its still made , you can still buy it , ---you will get the 5 year warranty on it
    What bike is it being put on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible
    I know it's a simple fix, I don't doubt that. I've pulled shocks apart before to replace air seals, swap cartridges in forks, change fluids,blah,blah. My point is I shouldn't have to do that after six rides and under 100 miles! This thing costs the average guy over 5 grand, and now he has to work on it? How is that great or a good design? I don't give a crap how well it rides when it works right if it doesn't work right 99% of the time for that kind of money.
    I here what you are saying , and you are correct ----you should not have to spend time or money on it , ------But unfortunatly in the world we live in we have to overcome small problems inorder to get to the place we want to be .

    I should not have had to take a 2010 CRF250 out of the crate and compleatly disassemble the engine , Hone the brand new cylinder and replace the ring set ,assemble it correctly to get a good ring seal to stop it from using oil -------------but I did ---( actually this in normal for all race bikes --------and re-do the top end every 5 hrs to keep it fresh)

    All bikes , all cars , everthing you buy will require you to tend to it in some way to get it and keep it perfected .

    These bikes are all getting really cool , but often that requires more work and really learning all about the product to understand how to keep it perfect.

    There is no one going to do it for you .

    Wait till you build your first dream home , ------oh my god-----life will only try your paitience harder and longer the older you get

  86. #86
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    Done bragging?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitek79
    Done bragging?
    Careful, or maybe he'll also get done telling us how to fix things we know nothing about, unless of course you have useful advice to contribute.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitek79
    What bike is it being put on?
    Its not.

    but since Specialized put a 5 year warranty on the E-150 and the enduro AFR, they'll have to keep small batches of parts around for probably the next 7 years or so, to account for late sales (for example you can still find new 2008 enduros in shops) and people who will keep their bike for a long time.

    they do have other variations of AFR still going on 2010 bikes, though.

  89. #89
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    I know.

    My point is if the shock is so awesome, why isn't it being used on current production bikes.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    If you leave off the black "O" ring under the sleeve....
    This actually worked perfectly for me... Can someone please confirm, however, that this will cause no damage to the shock? I find it hard to believe that the O-ring is only there to "fill empty air space."

    At 190lbs, fully equipped, and with 160 psi in the shock, this technique allowed me to run the shock with full negative air and still have a full stroke length. Thanks for everyone's input (especially kelstr).

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    The o-ring in the negative sleeve is a top out o-ring. I recommend leaving it in.
    Visit my profile for Links to:

    Performance Guarantee, Service, Setup, E150 Maintenance....

  92. #92
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    Just an observation, which seems very logical (post hoc):

    With NO negative air, the apparent difference between each firmness setting is greater (more noticeable) than WITH negative air. This makes sense, since one function of a negative spring is to overcome initial stroke/stiction.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    Just an observation, which seems very logical (post hoc):

    With NO negative air, the apparent difference between each firmness setting is greater (more noticeable) than WITH negative air. This makes sense, since one function of a negative spring is to overcome initial stroke/stiction.
    Captain Obvious has arrived.....

    Just ribbin ya I'm only kidding. Thanks for the input

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    Captain Obvious has arrived.....

    Just ribbin ya I'm only kidding. Thanks for the input
    (I'm a linear thinker who needs to "touch the hot stove before he realizes it's hot"...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    (I'm a linear thinker who needs to "touch the hot stove before he realizes it's hot...)
    lol! good to see you have a sense of humor and saw I was kidding

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by shift96
    lol! good to see you have a sense of humor and saw I was kidding
    Eh, I would have responded the same way...

    Thanks again to everyone for their input! This has been a helpful thread.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    (I'm a linear thinker who needs to "touch the hot stove before he realizes it's hot"...)
    Boy, you and I both , I have always been very much this way -------------all my teachers and professors really disliked that I needed to feel it , tast it , smell it in order to help get a picture of the direction I would go to solve the problem at hand .

    Everybodys mind learns and works differently than everybodys elses

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfSailRide
    Just an observation, which seems very logical (post hoc):

    With NO negative air, the apparent difference between each firmness setting is greater (more noticeable) than WITH negative air. This makes sense, since one function of a negative spring is to overcome initial stroke/stiction.
    Your observation is perfect,-------------you can have massive compression dampening and antisquat for a XC type of Big Ring fast pedaling, ------------or you can have more of a spring shock feel with less antisquat for a more active rear end for all mountain middle and small ring nasty techy big rock climbing and nice DH plush slaming feel .

    Its all up to what ever your style is and what your terrain is .

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    Continuing this fun game...

    OK, so now that I'm running a "full negative spring," it also seems that I need to run more PSI via positive spring to achieve the same sag I have had in the past (or I'm getting fatter... which isn't likely). Intuitively this part, once again, makes sense. However, what are your (collective) suggestions regarding positive air PSI and optimal performance while running with a full negative spring?

    (Yes, Kelstr, I plan to play and experiment to find my own preference; but as we all know it's good to hear outsiders' input! )

  100. #100
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    Also, I thought I read that a shorter shock actually increases rear travel? did I read that correctly? Great post's guy's

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