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Thread: Pf 30 issues

  1. #1
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    Pf 30 issues

    Anyone else had problems with their pf30 bottom brackets? I have about 30 miles on my Stumpy fsr evo. Already noise and play in the bottom bracket when climbing. Everything else seems tight.

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    Stock ones do seem pretty poor, I have heard better things about the Wheels' ones and Chris king now offer a PF30 BB with a 5 year warranty.

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    I was told not every shop takes the bb apart and grease before they sell it. Its not a must but after paying a shop a good deal pf money to do it adter the fact, my bb is silence again.

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    Pf 30 issues

    The only problem I've had is that mine seized up after only 1200km of riding and I've had to buy a new one.

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    Take ti back to the LBS and get them to check it. You can/should fit PF30 spacers to optimise the end-float of the setup.

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    i had to replace mine after 6 weeks, went for a ceramic replacement - now 14 months later it is still fine. the original pf30 is so lame.

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    Use enduro pf30 cups and bearings.
    The arsonist has oddly shaped feet!

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    Hey guys looking to service my stumpy fsr pf30 bb this winter. What are all the tools I need? I now kinda miss my old threaded bb, those are soo easy to service.

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    It just needs to be adjusted. Its easy to work on - just remove the crank arm with the self-extracting bolt and put it out. Grease the crap out of everything. There is a "pre-load" adjuster on one side, it probably just needs to be tightened down a 1/2 a turn or so to tighten it all up. My noises have stemmed from the crank arm/spindle interface so I use a liberal amount of grease on that. I am 1.5 years on mine riding the crap out of it problem free...nothing on a bike is maintenance free.
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    The PF30 is a crap design, and I own a 2013 Stumpy EVO with PF30. Specialized now recommends using a 3M 2 part adhesive to effectively "glue" the bb cups into the frame. I currently have about 500 miles on mine, with this adhesive, and a raceface PF30 cup to 24mm spindle bottom bracket, and it has been problem free, for now. With proper initial assembly and routine checks every now and then it should be okay for a while, however, I still think it's a poor design and a threaded BB is far superior on many levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedsterR View Post
    The PF30 is a crap design, and I own a 2013 Stumpy EVO with PF30. Specialized now recommends using a 3M 2 part adhesive to effectively "glue" the bb cups into the frame. I currently have about 500 miles on mine, with this adhesive, and a raceface PF30 cup to 24mm spindle bottom bracket, and it has been problem free, for now. With proper initial assembly and routine checks every now and then it should be okay for a while, however, I still think it's a poor design and a threaded BB is far superior on many levels.
    Nah, there's nothing wrong with the design, I believe that the use of cups is a great move and certainly helps tolerance vs BB30. The issue I believe is more with the manufacturers getting their heads around the design and learning to optimize frames and cranks. Certainly that was the issue with my 2011 - the chain stays were too close to the cranks, and I went through a bearing set due to incorrect spacers being fitted. No issues since then, 4,000kms ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedsterR View Post
    The PF30 is a crap design, and I own a 2013 Stumpy EVO with PF30. Specialized now recommends using a 3M 2 part adhesive to effectively "glue" the bb cups into the frame. I currently have about 500 miles on mine, with this adhesive, and a raceface PF30 cup to 24mm spindle bottom bracket, and it has been problem free, for now. With proper initial assembly and routine checks every now and then it should be okay for a while, however, I still think it's a poor design and a threaded BB is far superior on many levels.
    Where did you hear that Specy is recommending adhesive?
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    It is in the manual now. They recommend putting the adhesive on the cups before pressing them in.

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    Cool, thanks for the info. Anyone care to scan in that part for me to see or point me towards it online?
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    I've resolved myself to cleaning and lubing whenever mud or water is involved in my rides. Gonna try the Enduro bearings when these finally go, or Maybe the Chris Kings will be available by then.

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    The design isn't bad. It just has to be implemented properly.

    The stock bearings are shit. Mine seized up in less than a month albeit I was racing in some muddy conditions. Replaced with Enduro bearings. OK for now. Will be replacing with a CK PF30 bb soon.

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    Pf 30 issues

    If you're using a Shimano 24mm axle chainset in a PF30 bottom bracket shell the Praxis conversion bottom bracket looks like a good option. It uses a threaded expander so shouldn't work loose.

    http://praxiscycles.com/pages/conversion

    .

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dypeterc View Post
    The design isn't bad. It just has to be implemented properly.
    No, press fit BBs are pretty bad. Cool conversion BB above.
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    I have been using specialized's stock pf30 cups on my Demo and Stumpjumper for 3 years now with zero issues.I have seen one stumpjumper with a creaky bb but no failures.Are you guys pressing the cups in dry?

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    Honestly, there was nothing wrong with the old Shimano cartridge BBs...trying to fix something that wasn't broken. My PF30 hasn't been terrible, just have to do maintenance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    Honestly, there was nothing wrong with the old Shimano cartridge BBs...trying to fix something that wasn't broken.
    BB wasn't a problem but the crank axle was heavy/flexy.

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    PF30 is mainly used by manufacturers to cut-out precision machining costs(alloy) and added carbon layup processes. Why does a top-tier maker like Specialized scrimp on this AND still charge us a huge premium?

    I had zero problems, with Cannondale's original BB30.....but I simply could not hang with their Lefty forks.
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    I've been through three sets of bearings now. I tried to order a CK bb30 but they are out of stock. It really sucks when you get 100 miles out of a set and they start to creek and crack.

    Pulled my wifes cranks off yesterday to check hers and they have crapped themselves too. I don't have a problem with bb30 persay but better bearings would be nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    BB wasn't a problem but the crank axle was heavy/flexy.
    You mean square taper? People started breaking the spindles left and right as riding progressed into "jumps and drops".

    But as stated above, press-fit solves the problem that it's hard to make small carbon fiber structures, so it's easier to use the press-fit standard (and apply it across the board).
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible View Post
    I've been through three sets of bearings now. I tried to order a CK bb30 but they are out of stock. It really sucks when you get 100 miles out of a set and they start to creek and crack.
    I've been through 2 sets of bearings in 5,000kms. I thought a bunch of creaking and groaning was the BB bearings and cursed them for half the summer when I was away from home and without tools. Got home striped the cranks, no issues. Swapped the rear wheel and voila creaking and groaning gone. My cassette was loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    BB wasn't a problem but the crank axle was heavy/flexy.
    For XC riding, they were just fine. Quantify "flex"....never noticed.
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    Pf 30 issues

    The Chris King PF30 bottom brackets are quite expensive at $165 USD for steel bearings and $235 USD for the ceramic bearings.

    http://www.glorycycles.com/chkipfbobr.html

    You need to budget $55 USD for the Chris King grease injector too, along with a grease gun for flushing the bearings with fresh grease.

    http://chrisking.com/PFBB

    Along with the 30mm axle version of the Chris King PF30 bottom bracket there's also a 30mm to 24mm stepdown version apparently:

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...ke-2012-35277/

    A cheaper option that could be worth a try are the Enduro bearing bottom brackets. They offer a PF30 bottom bracket with steel angular contact bearings for $62 USD alongside their more expensive ceramic XD-15 PF30 bottom brackets:

    http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id232.html
    Last edited by WR304; 07-05-2013 at 04:18 AM.

  28. #28
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    I've been through 2 sets of bearings in 5,000kms. I thought a bunch of creaking and groaning was the BB bearings and cursed them for half the summer when I was away from home and without tools. Got home striped the cranks, no issues. Swapped the rear wheel and voila creaking and groaning gone. My cassette was loose.
    Not me. Pulled the cranks after alot of noise and the drive side bearing had almost siezed on the factory set. On the second set I was getting a loud cracking noise that sounded like and old school square taper arm that was loose. Pulled the crank and the bearing had a catch in it. I tried to clean it out and regrease with finish line synthetic but no luck. Third set is starting to show wear.

    I ordered a CK bb but was sent a 24 buy accident. When I called back to get the 30 they where out of stock.

    If I hadn't got such a good deal on some XO bb30 cranks I would just swap everything to english and be done with it.

    The bearings are either just too small or cheap.
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    My issues were mainly the related to the crank arm/spindle interface. I also had to tighten down the pre-load adjuster ring once to get rid of a tick. Overall, the bearings have been just fine, have put hundreds of miles on them since last year including some in not-so-ideal (read wet/muddy) conditions and had no real issues. I just think the sealed ST BBs were so bullet proof.....The UN-91 (XTR) was one of the finest BBs ever made.
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    Not trying to thread jack, but does anyone have the specialized part number for the PF30? Mine is on its way out and since my bike isnt available here in Oki I cannot get it from the lbs. My bike has less than 500 HARD miles on it. With a washing after every ride.
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    It's not a specialized part, its a sram part. Any bike shop can get it for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidNight_Rider View Post
    Not trying to thread jack, but does anyone have the specialized part number for the PF30? Mine is on its way out and since my bike isnt available here in Oki I cannot get it from the lbs. My bike has less than 500 HARD miles on it. With a washing after every ride.
    PF30 Press-in Cup: #S111600013
    OSBB Bearing (42 x 30 x 7mm): #9890-5005

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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    I also had to tighten down the pre-load adjuster ring once to get rid of a tick.
    What is the "pre-load adjuster ring"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible View Post
    It's not a specialized part, its a sram part. Any bike shop can get it for you.
    Correct, the oem cups are sram.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Correct, the oem cups are sram.
    Regardless of who makes them, I have posted the Spec part numbers for the cups and the bearings. Also, don't think that the SRAM PF30 BB kit is an equivalent part to the OEM Spec kit. It isn't, and the lack of a spacer has caused me pause in using it. Hence I have one of the shelf and I have the OEM kit on the bike.

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    Follow up after a month of riding the press fit bearings. Kept experimenting with the preload on the left side crank arm until the noise went mostly away. Also coated the outside of the bearings with lithium grease. Seems to keep most of the water out. Has been an unusually wet summer in the southeast.

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    My PF30 bottom bracket in my Stumpy EVO Expert failed after about 200 miles of winter riding. It started making creaking noise on steep hard climb.

    The one on the crank side is the worst one, the other side seems ok. I tried cleaning and re-greasing the bearings. It seem ok when it's not pressed in but as soon as I put it in, I can feel plenty of drags.

    Off they go and replaced them with Chris King ceramic PF30 BB. I greased the BB when I pressed them in. CK has a different/weird design, the actual bearings are slightly larger than the crank spindle. They come with hardened plastic spindle sleeve that make the contact with the bearings.

    I was a little skeptical about the design but so far I have 100+ miles with no play or noise coming from the BB. Definitely worth the $$ IMO

  38. #38
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    I have gotten a huge amount of water in my BB area recently. I reall think that's what has been killing bb30 bearings. I'm running a thomson masterpiece post that is not closed at the top. I belive most of the water is coming in that way during wet rides. The seat is acting like a gutter and just making the water run right down the post and into the BB shell.

    Going to pull the post and look into shoving a cork down there
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    Pf 30 issues

    Quote Originally Posted by terrible View Post
    I have gotten a huge amount of water in my BB area recently. I reall think that's what has been killing bb30 bearings. I'm running a thomson masterpiece post that is not closed at the top. I belive most of the water is coming in that way during wet rides. The seat is acting like a gutter and just making the water run right down the post and into the BB shell.

    Going to pull the post and look into shoving a cork down there
    Have you made sure that the drain hole in the underside of the bottom bracket shell is unobstructed, to allow any water that gets in the frame to run out again?

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    There is no factory drain hole. I made one and also put one in the bottom bracket bearing holder (plastice cup) incase anything gets in, it can also get out.
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    Thought about making a drain hole. Not sure how specialized would feel about that on a warranty claim. I have water in there every time I pull the bearings. Same thing with the drive side having drag when installed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigb2000 View Post
    Thought about making a drain hole. Not sure how specialized would feel about that on a warranty claim. I have water in there every time I pull the bearings. Same thing with the drive side having drag when installed.
    My 2011 SW doesn't have a drain hole either, but it also doesn't get water in there (well, very, very little). Certainly not enough to be an issue provided you use good BB grease.

    How do you think water is getting in - through the seat stem?

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    I once turned my bike upside down without the seatpost installed, and i had quite a bit of water coming out of there, more than a few drops. This was likely from a wash a few days ago, collected in the bottom braket area. I made it a habbit to dry my bike that way after washing.

    But i think the PF30 bearings are not in danger, the plastic shells separate them from the bottom braket area, and those have a tight seal, with an o-ring, against each other.

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    But i think the PF30 bearings are not in danger, the plastic shells separate them from the bottom braket area, and those have a tight seal, with an o-ring, against each other.
    They are but the o-ring between the two is not water tight.
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    Ok...I stand corrected...my PF30 BB is hammered. Took it apart tonight to investigate a noise in the area and yep...need a new one. It lasted 1.5 years so that isn't bad as I have ridden a lot in that time. I think the weak point is the exposure and the fact that you need a press and a removal tool..somethings I will leave to the shop!
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  46. #46
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    Even ceramic BB30 is not immune. Mine lasted 1.2 years, @ about 1400 miles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    Ok...I stand corrected...my PF30 BB is hammered. Took it apart tonight to investigate a noise in the area and yep...need a new one. It lasted 1.5 years so that isn't bad as I have ridden a lot in that time. I think the weak point is the exposure and the fact that you need a press and a removal tool..somethings I will leave to the shop!
    You don't need a press or removal tool. Use a punch to knock the old bearings out and then the new ones should insert by hand. Worst case use the old bearings to knock the new ones in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedracers4 View Post
    Off they go and replaced them with Chris King ceramic PF30 BB. I greased the BB when I pressed them in. CK has a different/weird design, the actual bearings are slightly larger than the crank spindle. They come with hardened plastic spindle sleeve that make the contact with the bearings.

    I was a little skeptical about the design but so far I have 100+ miles with no play or noise coming from the BB. Definitely worth the $$ IMO
    What kind of prep did you do to the surface of the BB when you pressed out the old cups? Did you have any residual epoxy from the bonding? Also, I've read that you press in the CK PF cups dry (no grease)

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    Anyone try or have the Chris King Ceramic PF30? Did you notice a difference from the standard steal bearings?

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    Thanks for the numbers man. It rains here everyday and mine lasted a whopping 4 months. I think in conjunction with the constant rain and water, the clay helped the bearings get destroyed. For reference not all bike shops can order stock American parts. I usually order parts online so I have to double check everything before placing an order and waiting around 3 weeks.
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  51. #51
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    Pf 30 issues

    Quote Originally Posted by g-bike View Post
    Anyone try or have the Chris King Ceramic PF30? Did you notice a difference from the standard steel bearings?
    The Chris King PF30 bottom brackets are in stock here to purchase:

    http://www.aspirevelotech.com/Mercha...O-SRAM-CERAMIC

    I'm hopefully going to be getting one of the Chris King PF30 ceramic bottom brackets for my Epic soon. I really like the sound of that five year warranty.

    On the subject of ceramic bearings vs steel bearings it really depends upon which specific bearings are being compared. Along with material things like the seals and grease used also have an effect. Not all steel bearings are equal.

    This is quite a good bearing article:
    http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Beari...down_2822.html

    This quote on the subject by Friction Facts is a good summary of potential savings from ceramic bearings:

    "Regarding savings in general, I agree with you, the typical savings might be 1-2 watts with high-end ceramics vs a brand like DA (Shimano Dura Ace).

    However, a manufacturer might actually be right by stating 6-9 watts savings, but they might be comparing it to the worst case scenario (not a brand like DA). ie, very poor performing or technology old products. That's where I would like to see the comparison they claim. For example, with the pulley and pedal tests on this site, over 2.5 watts can be saved, but this is comparing best to worst. When I add best to worst hubs and BB's after those tests are run, the total difference might be 6-9 watts, again looking at extremes.

    I actually market like this on my home page, showing the best-worst watt savings. However, the products and test methods are disclosed. At the end of the day, it truly would be nice if manufacturers making quantitative claims would advise the consumer how they got to those numbers.

    Thanks for the note.

    Jason"
    Friction-facts.com

    http://www.friction-facts.com/forum/ceramic-bearings/

  52. #52
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    Pf 30 issues

    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    I'm hopefully going to be getting one of the Chris King PF30 ceramic bottom brackets for my Epic soon. I really like the sound of that five year warranty.
    You know those times when you suspect that you've made a terrible mistake, well this is definitely feeling like one of them.

    My 2012 Epic uses a Shimano chainset with a 24mm axle. Its bottom bracket consisted of the SRAM PF30 to BSA press fit adapter and a Shimano Deore XT outboard bottom bracket. That combination worked fine with no creaking or play.

    Anyway, I switched it out for a Chris King PF30 ceramic bottom bracket along with a set of the Chris King reducers to fit a 24mm axle. It's high quality so there's sure to be no noise issues.

    That's not the case. The creak coming from the bottom bracket now is awful. I suspect it may be the plastic reducers as they're quite a loose fit. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.

  53. #53
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    This is one of the best information links on PF30 bottom brackets, and how to make them quiet, that I've seen. I'm still trying to decide what to do about this Chris King bottom bracket.

    Quoted from this thread:

    Niner & PF30 BB Experience Database


    Quote Originally Posted by thehaus View Post
    New Update: 1-2-13 (see below reference material)
    In addition to the Enduro bearings discussion, I have also added the Loctite and Permatex specs.
    -Thank you to all so far who have put their data into this thread!


    I would like to start a new thread and from my searching I didn't see it anywhere. While
    there are threads that talk a little about PF30, non go over things in enough detail to distill
    the facts. As this grows, we can then expand it to all frames that have PF30 but right now
    lets just keep it to Niner's spec'ed production version.

    Wiithout getting into too many details, I have heard about instances where after several installations of a SRAM/Truvativ PF30 BB in an Air 9 RDO, the shell became too wide to get a good fit and/or individuals were experiencing noise issues. To try to get an idea of all the issues, problems, and to try and find possible solutions, I am suggesting the following below.

    Can people please share the following:
    1. Niner frame & version if known (if unsure, does it have a drain hole under the
    BB shell?)
    2. What PF30 BB cups were installed (Enduro, Rotor, FSA, Wheels Mfg, E*Thirteen, Reset-Racing, Campy, Parlee, SRAM/Truvativ, other)
    3. Steel or ceramic bearings?
    4. Who installed the BB?
    5. Tool used for install (Park, Shimano, Home-Made-Press, other)?
    6. Was it ever replaced and by whom and with which BB?
    7. Did you install the BB using carbon paste, Permatex High Performance, Loctite 609/641, Loctite xxx, Electrical tape, Plumbers tape, Other glue, Grease, or just Nothing (Dry Prep Only), etc)?
    8. Describe any issues you had &/or your experience with PF30.

    9. If you installed yourself, did you make your own bearing press? If so, describe the parts you bought and how well it worked.

    I am hearing, seeing, and reading about many issues with PF30 and I would like to gather as much information as we can to distill the facts. My goals is that we come up with a set of instructions that are idea for first time installation and reinstallation. We can also have a guide for troubleshooting and solutions once we have enough data. At some point I will add section on manufactures PF30 installation recommendations.

    If there are any mtbr Forum members who work for frame companies or PF30 manufacturers reading this thread, please feel free to place your PF30 installation recommendations here as it will be appreciated by all.

    Thanks,

    Jonathan

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Discussion and facts from Enduro / ABI Industries
    I emailed and spoke with the technical advisor from Endro bearings.
    This is a summary of the discussion:
    1. Enduro did extensive testing of many PF30 BB's, shells, glues, and adhesives
    2. Adhesives Results:
    a) Permatex High Performace is far superior to any Loctite (609/641/660,etc.) in its non-permanent adhesive function (cups can also be easily removed if needed).
    b) Enduro testing showed that Permatex is a Non-permanent adhesive and acts like a liquid pipe tape. It reduces cup movement and noise issues better than Loctite or any other solution.
    3. Machined BB shells are ideal per their testing and have better tolerances.
    4. Machined PF30 cups are ideal per their testing and have better tolerances.
    5. Finely machined Delrin or machined aluminium is ideal for the PF30 cup material
    -some Delrin is extruded and not machined (Beware!)
    -some metal cups may not be machined very well either!
    6. Enduro/ABI machines all their Delrin cups
    -they have done extensive testing and find that machined Delrin plus Permatex adhesive gives the best results with the least amount of potential cup movement and resulting noise issues.
    -the cups can also later be removed without much issue due to the non-permanent adhesive

    Enduro mtb PF30 Installation Directions
    Step 1
    - Coat the mating surfaces between the frame and the Cups with Permatex. Here is a link to the Permatex that we recommend.

    Thread Sealants : Permatex® High Performance Thread Sealant

    -Once the cups are pressed into the frame wipe away any extra Permatex that may still be present.

    Step 2
    - Press the bearings into the cups. We recommend using our BB30 tool to do this. It will ensure that the bearings don't get pressed in too far and damage the frame or the bearings. We have a wide variety of bearings that can be used for this set up, but ensure that they have the part number 6806.

    Step 3
    -Install the Rotor cranks. With this set up you will need to use the Rotor spacers to achieve the proper chain line. I believe that it will just take one 11mm wide spacer on both sides. Once you have it spaced correctly then tighten down the non drive side crank arm to rotors spec and then eliminate any extra side play with their preload adjuster.

    Both Enduro and Rotor have provided some of the best customer support I have ever experienced and give them both cudos! Their technical expertise has been very helpful in sorting all this information out.

    Important: per my discussion with Enduro, even if you install the cups correctly, problems can still develop if the crank isn't properly spaced and secured.
    The ideal would be to use a crank, like Rotor, which has preload adjustments built in.
    If there is too much crank movement then the cups will move no matter what adhesive or mounting technique one uses and noise will ensue and you may also damage the carbon shell in some cases!!!


    Final Points and Summary:
    -Niner supposedly machines the Air 9 RDO carbon shell
    -Enduro machines their Delrin PF30 cups
    -Rotor machines their alloy PF30 cups
    -Permatex high performance is the best non-permanent adhesive

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Permatex High Performance thread sealant

    Specs and MDF docs
    Thread Sealants : Permatex® High Performance Thread Sealant

    - can be purchased online or at a local autoparts store and possible a hardware store

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    How To Make A Home-Made Bearing Press
    -this is what I made using parts purchased from Home Depot
    -there have been many discussions of how to make your own (google to find more info)

    Parts:
    1. (1) Hex Bolt 5" x 3/4" fully threaded ~$2.50
    2. (1) 3/4" nut ~$0.50/nut
    3. (4) 3/4" washers ~$0.40/washer ($~1.60)
    Total cost ~ $5.00 with tax
    4. wrap the washers that come in contact with the frame and cup with masking tape or duct tape to whatever thickness you prefer.
    5. consensus from all: install each bearing cup one at a time for the best control and seating.

    -note: a few people have used some drilled out wood blocks between the frame and the cups (you will need a much longer bolt if you do this) while others have used large washers that dont put any load on the bearings themselves

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Loctite Spec Sheet

    http://www.useloctite.com/filephotos...ions_Guide.pdf

    Based on the specs, this is what is recommended for removable bearing systems:

    Loctite 609
    1. Medium strength, Non-permanent
    2. Used for gaps up to 0.1mm

    Loctite 641
    1. Low strength, Non-permanent
    2. Used for gaps up to 0.15mm

    Loctite 660
    1. High strength, Non-permanent
    2. Used for gaps up to 0.5mm
    3. Probably best used for damaged or out of spec applications (when cups seem loose)

    Based on the above data, I would interpret this to mean that Loctite 609 or 641 would be ideal for applications like a primary installation or subsequent installations of the PF30 BB.

    I would probably reserve the use of Loctite 660 for instances where the BB shell goes out of spec after removal of the bearings or improper install. It might also work well in situations where one might unfortunately develop cup movement wear of the inner carbon shell resulting in a much larger gap (greater than 0.15mm). Loctite 660 is good for gaps up to 0.5mm.

    To check your BB shell and cups, I would recommend the use of digital calipers before and then after each subsequent installation. Make sure to measure several points (2-4) of the carbon shell inner diameter (ID) on both sides and record that down for future reference. I would also recommend measuring the each cups out diameter (OD). By keeping a record, you can use this for future warranty information and also to troubleshoot any problems that you may have or develop during or after installation(s).

    Example of my caliper measurements before installation:
    Air 9 RDO BB shell:
    -Left ID=45.92 & 45.96
    -Right ID=45.93 & 45.95

    Rotor 4630 BB:
    -Cup 1: 46.00
    -Cup 2: 46.02

    SRAM/Truvativ PF30 BB:
    -Cup 1: 46.10
    -Cup 2: 46.08

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Below are compiled Manuals and Manufacturer recommendations for PF30


    Niner Bikes
    -Recommendations from call with Ralph @ Niner 12-29-12 @1320)
    Dry install (they usually use the SRAM/Truvativ PF30 BB)
    Sometimes use BSA adapter for external cups
    Have not used Rotor PF30 BB but said it is fine to use
    Finish Line carbon prep (for carbon-metal interface or carbon-carbon interface)
    Press one side at a time
    Use headset press
    Call back if making noise for recommendations

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Rotor USA
    Pressfit manual (BB86, BB89, BB92):
    http://www.rotorbike.com/nueva/infotecnica/ManualPF.pdf
    Revised 04/2010
    Do not install ROTOR Press-Fit cups if the frame has openings inside the bottom bracket shell as contamination would reduce bearings life significantly
    Installing Press-Fit cups is a complicated process that requires specific tools. Visit your ROTOR dealer to complete the installation.
    Apply pressure evenly to both sides while installing the cups in the frame so that they do not become tilted. Only push on the alloy cap; pushing anywhere else may damage the bearings.
    Removal - Push out firmly from the inside using a blunt tool. Do not reuse the cups as they can be damaged from removal. Avoid damaging the frame during the removal.

    Spoke with Jeremy 12-29-12 @1410
    1. Use standard grease and press in on metal-metal only
    2. Dry or carbon paste for carbon-metal
    3. Medium strength Loctite 641 (or 609 non-permanent)
    4. Be safe: go with Loctite first (Less noise with Loctite)
    5. Don’t use grease with carbon on metal
    6. Have had issues with SRAM pressed in dry – noise
    7. If shell not precise, carbon paste will help with space and protection
    8. Can start with carbon paste – may get creaking
    9. Pull out and use Loctite if makes creaking
    10. Press one side at a time
    11. No issue with Niner

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    SRAM/Truvativ PF30
    -They recommend a dry press install or grease for their press fit GXP bearings. There is no manual for the PF30 ones. It is probably based on a metal-metal interface for GXP.
    -I will update this as I learn more
    -Niner does their install dry with the SRAM/Truvativ PF30 bearing

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Enduro ABEC-3 Press Fit 30 BB (XD-15)
    See installation and testing information above
    Comments from their message board:
    Q1. I had aluminum adapters and they made creaking noises. Do the Wheels adapters creak too? Would I need to grease them when installing to prevent this?
    A1. Our shims are made from engineering grade Delrin. This eliminates the metal-against-metal problem that causes creaking. No grease is required.

    Q2. The bearings in my BB30 frame make noise when I pedal hard. Any idea why?
    If the sealed bearings are not seated firmly in the BB shell, or if the bearings are not correctly aligned they can be noisy and wear out quickly.
    A2. Have a shop make sure that the bearings are installed correctly. In some cases, it might be necessary to use Loctite (green) to firmly seat the bearings.

    Q3. Once installed, how difficult is it to remove the BB30 adapters and what tools are required?
    A3. The adapters are easy to remove. They can be removed by inserting a long flat-ended punch (or even an wooden rod) through the bottom bracket and tapping the adapters out from the inside.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Reset-Racing (German PF30 Bearings)
    www.reset-racing.de

    Installation manual in German
    http://www.reset-racing.de/reset/res...0_MTB68_01.pdf

    Google translation of the manual
    Assembly (they recommend using grease which means it is probably for metal-metal installations)
    * 1st O-ring (B) in the thin shells (C) grease.
    * 2nd The contact surface of the bottom bracket cups for grease the bottom bracket shell thin.
    * 3rd Cups (C) press in gently. For this, use a hammer.
    * 4th Inside of the shells (C) with a thin layer of fat.
    * 5th Bearing (D) fat and put on the installation device. Together gently slide it into the left-hand cup. Attention! Should the
    ** Ball bearings for installation tilt, pull the ball bearing back from the bush and try again Installation Step 5 try
    **** Never camp with beatings continued seated.
    * 6th Seal (e) Grease thin and with the label side to the ball bearing (D) mounted in the left-hand cup.
    * 7th Sleeve (A) through the right support (C) in the inner bearing sleeve until the O-ring (B) is reached the left cup.
    * 8th Bearing (D) fat and put on the installation device. Together gently slide it into the right-hand cup. Attention! Should the
    ** Ball bearings for installation tilt, pull the ball bearing back from the bush and try again Installation Step 8 try
    **** Never camp with beatings continued seated.
    * 9th Seal (e) Grease thin and fit with the label side to the ball bearing (D) in the right-hand cup.
    * 10th Check by turning the ball bearings (D) that they rotate freely and do not touch the core (A). Move in the case of
    ** Corresponding contact, the sleeve in the interior of the inner bearing.
    * 11th Grease O-rings used in thin and nuclei (F).
    * 12th Nuclei (F) thin grease and push it into the bottom bracket.
    * 13th Crankshaft fat, attach a spacer (H) and insert them into the assembled nuclei (F).
    * 14th Second spacer (H) onto the crank and block the second crank arm, according to the crank manufacturer.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    SPECIALIZED BICYCLE COMPONENTS (Latest Rev Documents)
    15130 Concord Circle, Morgan Hill, CA 95037 (408) 779-6229
    IG0276 Rev.D, May 2011

    http://service.specialized.com/colla...B-Crankset.pdf

    1. Apply grease to the outer diameter of the OSBB Bearings, then press the bearings into the PF30 cups by hand. Be sure to press the bearings in straight. Do not force the bearings into the cups.

    2.Apply grease to the outer diameter of the PF30 cups, then place the Mindset Headset Bearing Press tools (9895-3045) against the bearings. Either use a Park Headset Press Tool or a bench-mounted vise to press the cups into the frame. To avoid damage to the cups, be sure to press the cups evenly into the frame.

    3.Once the flanges of the cups bottom out against the frame, do not apply any more pressure. Too much force applied to the cups once bottomed out can cause damage to the cups and can cause the bearings to spin roughly.

    NOTE: To remove the PF30 cups from the frame, first pull the bearings out as shown on page 6, then lightly tap the backside of the cups in a circular motion with a large flat surface. Do not use a screwdriver, as it may damage the cups.

    Right (drive-side) alloy bearing spacer specification (#9):

     2 x 10 chainring/spider: Large diameter spacer (S111600009).
     Triple chainring/spider: Small diameter spacer (S111600007).
     Double chainring with bashguard/triple spider: Small diameter spacer (S111600007).

    NOTE: Certain 2 x 10 spiders do not have the space to accept the large diameter spacer. Check the clearance between the large spacer and the chainring before installing the system.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    SPECIALIZED BICYCLE COMPONENTS
    15130 Concord Circle, Morgan Hill, CA 95037 (408) 779-6229
    IG0401 Rev.C, October 2012

    http://service.specialized.com/colla...G0401_revC.pdf

    46mm PF30 SHELL WITH PRESS-IN CUPS
     Remove any grease from the bottom bracket shell.
     Finish cleaning the bottom bracket shell with an alcohol wipe.
     Prepare the cranks for installation. Any adapters, spacers, wave washers, spider, chainrings, etc. that are involved with the installation of the crank must be ready to be installed prior to the installation of the bottom bracket cups.

    NOTE: Due to the 20 minute work time of the epoxy, the cranks must be installed immediately after the cups are installed, to ensure that the cups, bearings and crank are aligned.

     Fully mix the 3M DP 420 2-part epoxy, then apply the epoxy to the outer surface of the OSBB cups and the first 10mm of the inner diameter of the bottom bracket shell.
     Wipe off the excess epoxy from the inside and outside flanges of the cups. Use an alcohol wipe to clean off any remaining residue.
     Press the cups into the bottom bracket shell until the cups lightly bottom out against the frame. Use either the Specialized Bottom Bracket Bearing Press (S125300012) or the Mindset Headset Bearing Press tool (9895-3045). When using the 9895-3045 tool, either use a Park Headset Press Tool or a bench-mounted vise to press the cups into the frame. Be sure to press the cups evenly into the frame.
     Apply grease to the outer diameter of the OSBB bearings, then press them into the cups using the same tool that pressed the cups into the frame. Be sure to press the bearings in straight. Do not force the bearings into the cup. Wipe any last epoxy residue from the outside of the cup.
     Once the bearings bottom out in the cups, do not apply any more pressure. Excess force can damage the cups and cause the bearings to spin roughly.
     To remove the cups from the frame, pull the bearings out as shown in the Specialized Carbon Crank set Instruction Guide, then lightly tap the backside of the cups in a circular pattern with a large flat surface. Do not use a screwdriver, as it may damage the cups.
     Before installing new cups with new epoxy, remove any excess epoxy lips that may have formed at the inside and outside edges of the cups

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    SPECIALIZED BICYCLE COMPONENTS
    15130 Concord Circle, Morgan Hill, CA 95037 (408) 779-6229
    IG0276 Rev.C, February 2011

    http://service.specialized.com/colla...B-Crankset.pdf

    1. Apply grease to the outer diameter of the OSBB Bearings, then
    press the bearings into the PF30 cups by hand. Be sure to press the
    bearings in straight. Do not force the bearings into the cups.
    2.Apply grease to the outer diameter of the PF30 cups, then place
    the Mindset Headset Bearing Press tools (9895-3045) against the
    bearings. Either use a Park Headset Press Tool or a bench-mounted
    vise to press the cups into the frame. To avoid damage to the cups, be
    sure to press the cups evenly into the frame.
    3.Once the flanges of the cups bottom out against the frame, do not
    apply any more pressure. Too much force applied to the cups once
    bottomed out can cause damage to the cups and can cause the
    bearings to spin roughly.

    NOTE: To remove the PF30 cups from the frame, first pull the
    bearings out as shown on page 6, then lightly tap the backside of
    the cups in a circular motion with a large flat surface. Do not use a
    screwdriver, it may damage the cups.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cannondale

    -image missing (will try and fix)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Velo News Article to Zinn of PF30
    1/24/12

    Tech FAQ: on front brake mounting

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    If you are using a PF30 to BSA adapter:

    Ask a Mechanic – Adapting SRAM GXP to PF30, BB30, & BBRight | Art’s Cyclery Blog

    Posted on June 20, 2012 by Daniel
    Quote from blog:
    I prefer the SRAM BSA PF30 adapter because it is the most secure option available and it uses a bottom bracket (standard BSA GXP threaded cups) that was designed by SRAM to work ideally with their proprietary GXP spindle design. The thing to keep in mind is that the GXP spindle was conceived when there were only two very similar bottom bracket standards in use, BSA and Italian. The design really requires that the non-drive side bearing be completely fixed in the frame (i.e. no press-fit), as the crank is fastened to this bearing. This quirk is why SRAM is such a proponent of BB30 cranks and why they developed the PF30 standard, because GXP cranks do not adapt well to the bevy of press-fit bottom bracket standards that have materialized in recent years. While the BSA adapter does not fully allow this, it is the closest SRAM sanctioned option available.
    What allows the SRAM adapter to work so well is that it utilizes an included wave washer and shims that takes up excess space between the spindle and the overall width of the frame’s bottom bracket shell, the adapter, and the plastic bearing cups (hereafter referred to as the “bottom bracket assembly”). Other adapters, such as those from Wheels Manufacturing, rely on bottom bracket assemblies being made to very tight tolerances.* If the bottom bracket assembly is out of tolerance and is too wide, then the bearings will have too much preload on them and will suffer from excess drag. If the bottom bracket assembly is too narrow, then the adapter or bearing on the non-drive side will move outboard until the crank spider bottoms out on the drive side bearing. In a worst case scenario where the bearing bores, cups, or bottom bracket shell diameters are out of tolerance, the crank will move side-to-side inside the frame rather than finding a resting place as described in the previous sentence. Of course the BSA adapter will allow a modicum of side-to-side movement, as it is relying on a wave washer which is essentially a spring after all. But most BB30 cranks rely on such a device with no rider detectable play if set up properly.

    .
    .
    .

    More to come...

    Let me know if anyone finds out more info and I will add it

  54. #54
    mtbr member
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    I know that's alot of good info but my particular issue isn't the cups making noise, it's the bearings going bad and then the failed bearing making noise.

    The niner issue I heard about was the eccentric bottom bracket making alot of noise.
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  55. #55
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    Go back to 1st principles. Creaking is caused by surfaces moving relative to each other. Which they will do with not enough end float. Evaluate the spacers you have in place and the end float. Look to remove any end float. I would recommend adding a single 0.5mm PF30 washer at a time until the noise disappears.

    Hopefully that will work ;-)

  56. #56
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    Did OP even use the wave washer?
    "This is a male-dominated forum... there will be lots of Testosterone sword-shaming here" ~ Kenfucius

  57. #57
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    The wave washer isn't for the specialized application. The stumpy uses a rotating adjuster to take up the shaft end-end play. Cannondale uses the wave washer. And FSA I belive uses it in there bb30 cranks.
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    Go back to 1st principles. Creaking is caused by surfaces moving relative to each other. Which they will do with not enough end float. Evaluate the spacers you have in place and the end float. Look to remove any end float. I would recommend adding a single 0.5mm PF30 washer at a time until the noise disappears.

    Hopefully that will work ;-)
    Very good point! But even w/ a properly preloaded crank the whole system (cups especially) could shift causing noise. It's tough to know whether Spec/CK want the cups to be greased/epoxied/dry

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrible View Post
    The wave washer isn't for the specialized application. The stumpy uses a rotating adjuster to take up the shaft end-end play. Cannondale uses the wave washer. And FSA I belive uses it in there bb30 cranks.
    It is for the S-Works crank. This is an "ultra-torque" crank which has a wave washer on the LHS.

  60. #60
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    Pf 30 issues

    This is a good article about the possible issues with pressfit bottom brackets.

    http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/a...rackets-38220/

    .

  61. #61
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    I tried the Enduro angular bearings as a replacement for the stock ones. I could never get them to spin freely after snugging down the crank. There was always a drag. I pressed out the stock bearings and regreased with c.v. Axle grease. When pressing the bearings back into the plastic factory cups, I didn't press them in as far into the cups. As a result, they spin super free now. They easily rotate 4-5 times in the stand after everything is tightened down. Makes a real difference when riding. When these go bad, I'm replacing with ceramic bearings only from Internet source. Just ordering the earring number. Finally happy with press fit. I used my floor shop press for the removal, but a bench vise would do it.

  62. #62
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    Wheels Manufacturing PF30 BB

    Although I now have over 2,000kms on my PF30 BB since troubleshooting a BB clearance problem that ruined my first set of bearings, I have decided to trial a different PF30 BB solution and have chosen the Wheels Manufacturing setup.

    The reasons were primarily due to the fact that this unit is made of anodized alloy (the colour red helps on my bike) and this will make the BB less susceptible to deformation that could/can/possibly affect the plastic cups that are the OEM fitting (and are also used in other aftermarket products).

    When you order this unit, you received the following:

    Pf 30 issues-wheels-mfg-pf30-_02.jpg


    inside the box you will find a good instruction sheet, some PF30 washers that look well made, and a beautiful piece of CNC machining.

    Pf 30 issues-wheels-mfg-pf30-_03.jpg


    Notice the use of "O" ring seals on the outside of each cup and also between the alloy pieces. Very nice.

    Pf 30 issues-wheels-mfg-pf30-.jpg


    Finally, the bearings have a useful seal over the bearings, the bearings are also sealed as usual.

    Pf 30 issues-wheels-mfg-pf30-_01.jpg

    Installation of the BB unit was easy - they press in and fit very snugly in fact easier to press in than the OEM plastic cups.

    Getting the correct spacing is a bit hit-and-miss as the Wheels MFG BB sits more proud of the frame

    Pf 30 issues-wheels-mfg-pf30-_04.jpg


    the amount you can see here...

    Pf 30 issues-wheels-mfg-pf30-_07.jpg


    In the end I settled on removing the 4mm LHS spacer and packing the LHS with 3 of the supplied spacers whilst retaining the 4mm spacer inside of the large dished spacer on the RHS.

    Pf 30 issues-wheels-mfg-pf30-_06.jpg


    I found that the was using both 4mm spacers produced too little end-float with, and that the final setup had the most equal spacing between the chainstays and the cranks.

    I will put a 100kms on it and report back.

  63. #63
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    Please report back. That's the same bearing I tried. Used every combination of spacers I could with poor results. Definitely a well-made product.

  64. #64
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    I changed the spacer setup after the first ride.

    I have ended up with 2x 1mm washers on the LHS crank and no 4mm spacer, with the 4mm spacer and the large dished spacer (for 2x10 spider) with a single 0.5mm spacer on the outside of the larger dished spacer. That combination spins well, makes no noise, and limits my RHS chainstay clearance issues.

    For the sake of clarity, for my 2011 S-Works, from the LHS I have crank; LHS shell; wave washer; 2x 1mm spacers, BB, 4mm Spec spacer with integrated lip seal; large dished washer; 1x 0.5mm spacer and the RHS crank.

    The only downside is that the large dished washer sits a little proud of the BB shell - but the sealing on the Wheels MFG setup looks good and I used grease between the outer seal and the spacers to keep the moisture out.

    I'll report back further after a couple of hundred km's.

  65. #65
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    so my non drive side bearing is definitely not very healthy anymore. do I need to replace the pressed in cups everytime I need new bearing or can I just replace the bearings? I can replace bearing myself no problem but don't know how comfortable I would be pressing in new cups.

  66. #66
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    Those cups knock in and out pretty easy with a wood block and a mallet. in a pinch I used a large socket and an 1/2" extension to knock some out.
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by adumb View Post
    so my non drive side bearing is definitely not very healthy anymore. do I need to replace the pressed in cups everytime I need new bearing or can I just replace the bearings? I can replace bearing myself no problem but don't know how comfortable I would be pressing in new cups.
    You can press out the old bearings from the cups without removing the cups. If you do remove the cups you fill find that they are not easy to press back in again without a screw-in bearing press.

  68. #68
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    The enduros will push in by hand. The plastic cup ones will go with a rubber mallet and wood block. I use a piece of all-thread with a couple of washer and two nuts to match the all-thread size. See the tool forum section for more details. They go in easy.

  69. #69
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    ordered my new bearings and i got the park tool bbt-30.3 tool that should do the trick. i don't plan on removing the cups just replacing the bearings so should be super easy i hope.

  70. #70
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    Been reading this forum since my 2012 camber developed a new issue over the weekend. Just back from having rear triangle warrantied first ride I developed a front derailleur issue or what I thought was one. Finished the ride and made it home. Next day attempted another ride where the real issue was finally identified. My bottom bracket has 1/4 in of sideways play so looks like I am in the same boat. Back to the shop for mine since I'm no mechanic but I sure need to be.
    2017 Cannondale Scalpel Si Carbon 3 (27.5)

  71. #71
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    2012 camber comp didn't have a bb30 bottom bracket did it? Only on carbon models. If you can get 1/4" of play on a bb30 you're wearing on the bottom bracket shell!
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

  72. #72
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    PF30 and I'm not riding it. Waiting for my Stumpy to get fixed from breaking the pedal arm (another thread) to get repaired so I can bring one to and bring one home. Been a bad month to be a mountain biker but a good month to own a shop.
    2017 Cannondale Scalpel Si Carbon 3 (27.5)

  73. #73
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    Pf 30 issues

    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Anyway, I switched it out for a Chris King PF30 ceramic bottom bracket along with a set of the Chris King reducers to fit a 24mm axle. It's high quality so there's sure to be no noise issues.

    That's not the case. The creak coming from the bottom bracket now is awful. I suspect it may be the plastic reducers as they're quite a loose fit. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.
    A quick update on my Chris King PF30 bottom bracket. It's sorted out now, greasing the plastic reducers and then tightening the crank down tightly seemed to do the trick. No creaking and the drivetrain feels slick with the ceramic bottom bracket..

    I also replaced the original SRAM X-0 rear derailleur jockey wheels with Mt Zoom ceramic jockey wheels. I doubt it makes a huge amount of difference but they look nice anyway. With SRAM original jockey wheels you re-use the metal spacers and the dimensions are exactly the same as with the originals.

    http://mtzoom.com/jockey-wheels/bullet-proof/

    .

  74. #74
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    Has anyone experienced excessive bearing friction after pressing in the bearing? I have the plastic cups and cartridge bearings that I purchased from my Specialized dealer, and after pressing the bearings they spin a little rough as though they are under too much compression due to a tight fit. When I remove the bearing, its spins really smooth so I don't think I damaged the bearings during installation.

    Most people probably wouldn't complain or notice, but I am kinda picky and want as little friction as possible.

    Are there any bottom brackets that are more tolerant of a tight fit? Or does this mean that my bottom bracket shell needs to be reamed? I have a 2011 Epic Comp Carbon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillTheGreat View Post
    Has anyone experienced excessive bearing friction after pressing in the bearing? I have the plastic cups and cartridge bearings that I purchased from my Specialized dealer, and after pressing the bearings they spin a little rough as though they are under too much compression due to a tight fit. When I remove the bearing, its spins really smooth so I don't think I damaged the bearings during installation.

    Most people probably wouldn't complain or notice, but I am kinda picky and want as little friction as possible.

    Are there any bottom brackets that are more tolerant of a tight fit? Or does this mean that my bottom bracket shell needs to be reamed? I have a 2011 Epic Comp Carbon.
    PF30 has the option of a number of 0.5mm spacer washers to ensure endfloat is correct. From your description it sounds as though you should remove one of more of these washers until your bearings are not too side-loaded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    PF30 has the option of a number of 0.5mm spacer washers to ensure endfloat is correct. From your description it sounds as though you should remove one of more of these washers until your bearings are not too side-loaded.
    Thanks for the reply, but I'm afraid I did not explain accurately. The bearings have friction caused by the compression of the bottom bracket shell, not from side-load caused by the crankset. The bearings have friction even without the crank installed.

  77. #77
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    Yes Will, it's why I reinstalled my bearings into the plastic cups. It was either have a loose crank or too much friction. I never could get the spacers to work. I also think the seals on the Enduro bearings rub the crank arm somewhat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillTheGreat View Post
    Thanks for the reply, but I'm afraid I did not explain accurately. The bearings have friction caused by the compression of the bottom bracket shell, not from side-load caused by the crankset. The bearings have friction even without the crank installed.
    So when you press the bearings into the cups and then press the cups into the frame, the bearings are loaded up?

  79. #79
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    got my bearings in, for the record they only cost 19 bucks which I was really happy about. if I have to do it once or twice a year for that price I don't find it a huge problem.

    for those who will do the work themselves when I used park tool bbt30.3 to tap out the old bearings that tool Is actually made to hammer out the cup also so it comes out in one piece. I thought the step was made to hammer out just the bearing so I was surprised then the shell and bearing went flying across my garage floor. once it was out I taped the bearing out of the shell with a screw driver pretty easily. I used the bearing press tool to put the bearing back in the cup. that went in pretty easy also. then I used the same bearing press tool to hammer the cup and bearing back into the frame all in one piece.

    really went pretty smooth I was just under the assumption that I could have removed the bearing while leaving the cup in the frame with that park tool but it isn't made like that.

    only semi weird thing was after I put the bearing in and then put my crank back on I need to screw down that preload spacer a pretty good amount. I wonder if my other bearings were not pressed in all the way or is there that much difference in thickness between bearings.

    also should I be putting some glue epoxy or anything on that cup before I put it back in. it look really dry when it came out so I just put it back in without anything on it.

    I did a test ride around the driveway and it felt fine. I also tried to get some movement by moving the crank arms and it seem solid. friction feels the same as before. I will take the bike for a ride tomorrow to give it good test.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    So when you press the bearings into the cups and then press the cups into the frame, the bearings are loaded up?
    Yes I install the bearings into the plastic cups, then press them into the frame. I suspect that the fit is too tight, and the bearings spin poorly when installed in the frame. It feels as though there is too much pre-load on them, but of course without a crankset installed, it can only come from the shell. It just doesn't seem to fit right.

    I think the tolerance on something is off causing a tight fit. I'd bet it's probably the plastic cups. I'm planning to try a SRAM PF30 bottom bracket in hopes that it will spin better.

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    Will, have you thrown the cranks in and given them a spin? The amount of drag might be negligible with the cranks in. I know how you're feeling though. You could also lift the labyrinth seals and substitute in some lighter grease until they break in a bit more, but depending on how much drag you are experiencing by just feeling the bearing with your fingers, you might not even notice with the cranks in. I might be wrong, it's hard to know just how much drag you're talking about.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillTheGreat View Post
    Yes I install the bearings into the plastic cups, then press them into the frame. I suspect that the fit is too tight, and the bearings spin poorly when installed in the frame. It feels as though there is too much pre-load on them, but of course without a crankset installed, it can only come from the shell. It just doesn't seem to fit right.

    I think the tolerance on something is off causing a tight fit. I'd bet it's probably the plastic cups. I'm planning to try a SRAM PF30 bottom bracket in hopes that it will spin better.
    There is no way simply pressing the bearings into the cups and the cups into the frame will cause the bearings to perform as you say as the cage of the bearing is steel, and incompressible to all intents and purposes. In this configuration there is no pre-load on the bearings at all, so they should move freely. Given the drag on the bearings with the seals, you should not expect them to "spin" but they should move smoothly and evenly with no notchiness at all. I use my thumb pressed against the inner and wiggle it back and forwards to check.

    I you still have issues, the only explanation I can think of is that you have the bearings twisted in the cups...

    Have you ever used a drift on the inner bearing race to knock them in or out? You should never do this as you will ruin the bearings and need to replace them.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    There is no way simply pressing the bearings into the cups and the cups into the frame will cause the bearings to perform as you say as the cage of the bearing is steel, and incompressible to all intents and purposes. In this configuration there is no pre-load on the bearings at all, so they should move freely. Given the drag on the bearings with the seals, you should not expect them to "spin" but they should move smoothly and evenly with no notchiness at all. I use my thumb pressed against the inner and wiggle it back and forwards to check.

    I you still have issues, the only explanation I can think of is that you have the bearings twisted in the cups...

    Have you ever used a drift on the inner bearing race to knock them in or out? You should never do this as you will ruin the bearings and need to replace them.
    Not true. I had an aluminum frame stumpy hardtail that I bought used. The PF30 bearing felt frozen almost. I replaced them with new bearings and new cups and outside the shell they spun fine. but inside the shell there was a lot of resistance due to the compression from what I believe was an out of spec shell or too thick of a cup for the PF30. I used a professional (Enduro) bearing press for the installation too. I wound up selling the bike for this reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpd131 View Post
    Not true. I had an aluminum frame stumpy hardtail that I bought used. The PF30 bearing felt frozen almost. I replaced them with new bearings and new cups and outside the shell they spun fine. but inside the shell there was a lot of resistance due to the compression from what I believe was an out of spec shell or too thick of a cup for the PF30. I used a professional (Enduro) bearing press for the installation too. I wound up selling the bike for this reason.
    Sorry mate but this simply can't be true. The bearing shell is steel and obviously circular so for it to compress would require a SERIOUS amount of force - and it would highly unlikely to compress without major deformation (ripples etc). Also, remember that the bearing is sitting in PLASTIC cups so these cups will always deform before the steel. That was a fundamental design principle of PF30 so that the BB spec, particularly in carbon frames could be more relaxed and hence cost less to manufacture.

    It is far more likely in your instance that you had too little end-float and this was causing the bearings to load up - something cartridge bearing are not designed to tolerate. A standard cartridge bearing with too little end-float will be terminal in a very short space of time. For this reason some people (like me) have gravitated to the Enduro ABEC 5 (C '3' standard) "angular contact" bearings for the BB. These tolerate higher variability in end-float than standard cartridge bearings.

    I also wonder why people are expecting these bearings to "spin"? They have 2 shields so quite a lot of friction and so will never spin in the manner of a bearing without shields.

    Bottom line, if you are changing your BB/PF30 setup (as I recently did replacing the Specialized BB setup with Wheels MFG PF30 BB), then assemble the crank and spin it without the chain. If it doesn't spin freely, without sound, then you have bad bearings or have too little end float in your BB. Disassemble and fix and repeat until you are happy with the setup. Then ride and check after a 100kms or so.

    If you are not changing the setup then press the old bearings out, replace with new and keep the same spacer setup. But still always check whether the crank turns freely. It is possible to not have fully pressed the bearings into the cups and cause too little sideways tolerance.

    HTH

  85. #85
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    Sorry. I expect my cranks to spin freely. Removed the outer seals on the enduros and noticed a considerable difference in resistance. The original bearings wouldn't spin at all after their life came to an end. Got the wear on my crank to prove it. Bottom line in my almost expert opinion, is that the bearing type is wrong for this application. The bearing width is too narrow for the overall diameter of the bearing. Throw in moisture, grit and they have no chance. They appear to be bearings for an electric motor application where rpm and heat tolerance are the primary factors. I also noticed several sets on the workbench at a LBS that were all almost frozen.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigb2000 View Post
    Sorry. I expect my cranks to spin freely. Removed the outer seals on the enduros and noticed a considerable difference in resistance. The original bearings wouldn't spin at all after their life came to an end. Got the wear on my crank to prove it. Bottom line in my almost expert opinion, is that the bearing type is wrong for this application. The bearing width is too narrow for the overall diameter of the bearing. Throw in moisture, grit and they have no chance. They appear to be bearings for an electric motor application where rpm and heat tolerance are the primary factors. I also noticed several sets on the workbench at a LBS that were all almost frozen.
    Well, your cranks should spin freely.

    The BB30/PF30 bearings (46x30x7) are a CN spec (usually C3) bearing with 2 plastic shields (2RS). The "angular contact" option that Enduro supplies are a unidirectional bearing designed for a combined axial and radial load which, I've convinced myself is probably a good idea for a BB application, particularity with the deformable PF30 cups and an ultra-torque-syle crank (Spec S-Works)

    What limits bearing life is basically the number of rotations (metal fatigue) and the maximum load - so load and operating speed. In other words all RPM means is how quickly it will reach maximum life. IIRC most C3 bearings are rated to 2 standard deviations (90%) of their max life. For a BB30 or PF30 bearing, in a BB application rpm is very low (between 1-2Hz), so can carry a big load.

    Also, the shields are there for a reason, obviously. And, for such a low rpm application the "resistance" you feel is of almost no consequence.

    FWIW I recently removed my PF30 bearings to fit a new BB. They had 2,500kms and were still spinning freely. My first set of bearings lasted 300kms before failure due to too high side-loading.

    All this is by way of saying that PF30/BB30 bearings are fine and more than up to the job. What limits life is the variability in setup, frame manufacture (for BB30), and the bike manufacturers learning to use it properley.

    There was a good article on BikeRadar on PF30 frustrations a little while back - it is a good read, and one that I agree with, mostly.

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    Sorry mate but this simply can't be true. The bearing shell is steel and obviously circular so for it to compress would require a SERIOUS amount of force - and it would highly unlikely to compress without major deformation (ripples etc). Also, remember that the bearing is sitting in PLASTIC cups so these cups will always deform before the steel. That was a fundamental design principle of PF30 so that the BB spec, particularly in carbon frames could be more relaxed and hence cost less to manufacture.

    It is far more likely in your instance that you had too little end-float and this was causing the bearings to load up - something cartridge bearing are not designed to tolerate. A standard cartridge bearing with too little end-float will be terminal in a very short space of time. For this reason some people (like me) have gravitated to the Enduro ABEC 5 (C '3' standard) "angular contact" bearings for the BB. These tolerate higher variability in end-float than standard cartridge bearings.

    I also wonder why people are expecting these bearings to "spin"? They have 2 shields so quite a lot of friction and so will never spin in the manner of a bearing without shields.

    Bottom line, if you are changing your BB/PF30 setup (as I recently did replacing the Specialized BB setup with Wheels MFG PF30 BB), then assemble the crank and spin it without the chain. If it doesn't spin freely, without sound, then you have bad bearings or have too little end float in your BB. Disassemble and fix and repeat until you are happy with the setup. Then ride and check after a 100kms or so.

    If you are not changing the setup then press the old bearings out, replace with new and keep the same spacer setup. But still always check whether the crank turns freely. It is possible to not have fully pressed the bearings into the cups and cause too little sideways tolerance.

    HTH
    I appreciate your input and may be correct in some situations, however in my situation it is not the case. Seal do NOT have the drag/friction I am speaking of. I have been wrenching the better part of 30 years, so I have some experience. And one thing I have learned there is never a 1 correct answer for every situation. To explain further, the bearing spins free before pressing into cup/shell. I can tell you without a doubt It was either out of tolerance shell or cups that caused my issue. I do suspect it was the shell because there were two sets of cup that caused this issue. BTW the cranks were not installed to feel resistance in the bearing. Bearings spin freely and then after bearing install with no cranks, they were tight and barely moved. Based on your theory even if they were NOT installed perfectly perpendicular the delrin cup could absorb the difference and with no crank installed they should spin freely, and that DID NOT work. I did not have the proper micrometer to measure the shell I.D. to see if it fell within tolerance. It only takes a few .0001's of an inch to mess up bearing tolerance. Also the bearing shell is aluminum not steel in the case of my frame and Will the great had a carbon bike, that may have had an aluminum insert or a carbon shell. I am not sure how they manufactured that frame, either way it was not steel. Not sure if that would matter for this case anyway.

    BTW that Wheels Manufacturing PF30 is a nice way to go. Also the new Chris King's seem good too.

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    Bit of a puzzle. You haven't got angular contact bearings fitted by any chance? They are directional by design so if you get them around the wrong way they won't turn as freely. Enduro use different colours for the shields orange/red faces out, black faces in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    Bit of a puzzle. You haven't got angular contact bearings fitted by any chance? They are directional by design so if you get them around the wrong way they won't turn as freely. Enduro use different colours for the shields orange/red faces out, black faces in.
    Mine were not angular contact. though my next PF30 replacement on my other bike will be. My bearings were not directional and I'm not sure radial bearings are directional, the seals may be different design for inner and outer, either way I had the same seal on both sides. When I pressed those bearings back out the spun free and I used them in my other PF30 bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpd131 View Post
    Mine were not angular contact. though my next PF30 replacement on my other bike will be. My bearings were not directional and I'm not sure radial bearings are directional, the seals may be different design for inner and outer, either way I had the same seal on both sides. When I pressed those bearings back out the spun free and I used them in my other PF30 bike.
    Maybe the BB shell was out of round. It's pretty much impossible to compress the outer race but I can see how it could ovalize in an oval 'setting'. I seem to recall putting a bearing in a vice and being able to squish it to seizure.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpd131 View Post
    Mine were not angular contact. though my next PF30 replacement on my other bike will be. My bearings were not directional and I'm not sure radial bearings are directional, the seals may be different design for inner and outer, either way I had the same seal on both sides. When I pressed those bearings back out the spun free and I used them in my other PF30 bike.
    Radial bearings are not directional, angular contact ones are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post
    Maybe the BB shell was out of round. It's pretty much impossible to compress the outer race but I can see how it could ovalize in an oval 'setting'. I seem to recall putting a bearing in a vice and being able to squish it to seizure.
    Could be and easy enough to check. If so it would be a warranty issue. Still I would expect the plastic cups to deform - if not there would be a fair bit of force required to insert the cups in the frame.

  93. #93
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    Pf 30 issues

    I thought I'd post an update on how my Chris King PF30 ceramic bearing bottom bracket has been getting on.

    As at 9 July 2014 my bottom bracket has done 8,680 miles / 618 hours riding, including being used through the UK winter, which was very wet with heavy rain and lots of flooding.

    I took the crank arms off today and the bottom bracket bearings themselves are still ok. The drive side bearing isn't perfect anymore though. I'd hope it will last the rest of this year.

    The main downside is that I'm using a Shimano Deore XT chainset with a 24mm diameter axle. That means using Chris King plastic reducers to fit the chainset. That's not great as water gets into the tiny gap between the plastic reducers and axle, causing the steel chainset axle to rust at those points. The drivetrain also creaks a bit under heavy load, as a result of the plastic reducers moving slightly so far as I can tell.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    I thought I'd post an update on how my Chris King PF30 ceramic bearing bottom bracket has been getting on.

    The main downside is that I'm using a Shimano Deore XT chainset with a 24mm diameter axle. That means using Chris King plastic reducers to fit the chainset. That's not great as water gets into the tiny gap between the plastic reducers and axle, causing the steel chainset axle to rust at those points. The drivetrain also creaks a bit under heavy load, as a result of the plastic reducers moving slightly so far as I can tell.
    I've found a bit of a trick in that I have been using grease between the PF30 spacers and the sealing spacers. When I dismantled the BB (see above) the grease was still intact and had clearly kept the water out which was pleasing. Downunder we are in the middle of winter.

  95. #95
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    I've now got a year on my Wheels Manufactoring Enduro bearings. They are finally showing some wear. Much better than the sram plastic ones. They have kept out the wet even after numerous creek crossings that fully submerged them.

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    I really want to like the Wheels Man. BB. I even got the one with the AC bearings. but they lasted 3 months on my single speed. Less than the cheap SRAM one. And they creaked very badly. I am going to pony up and just get the Chris King one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpd131 View Post
    I really want to like the Wheels Man. BB. I even got the one with the AC bearings. but they lasted 3 months on my single speed. Less than the cheap SRAM one. And they creaked very badly. I am going to pony up and just get the Chris King one.
    No, the units are very good. Like anything though, you need to have done the installation right. I toasted a set of PF30 bearings in 300kms due to incorrect end-load (this was in the OEM build of my SW Epic). The AC bearings allow more end-load which is what I have done to (finally) sort out a RH crank strike issue, but I ended up experimenting with the end-float 2-3 times before I was happy with it. Also as I stated above the units have stayed watertight due to facing the spacers with grease.

    PF30 certainly takes more finessing to get right compared to my old XTR 24mm cranks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    No, the units are very good. Like anything though, you need to have done the installation right. I toasted a set of PF30 bearings in 300kms due to incorrect end-load (this was in the OEM build of my SW Epic). The AC bearings allow more end-load which is what I have done to (finally) sort out a RH crank strike issue, but I ended up experimenting with the end-float 2-3 times before I was happy with it. Also as I stated above the units have stayed watertight due to facing the spacers with grease.

    PF30 certainly takes more finessing to get right compared to my old XTR 24mm cranks.
    Please don't assume your mistake was mine. I have 4 bikes with PF BB, plenty of experience. I do understand AC bearing PF bottom brackets require preload and are tough to get right, but as far as the bearing was concerned, it was the seal that went quickly and allowed contaminants in and bearings were gritty very quickly and one side almost seized. Ultimately I think that is what caused the creak. I also know the SS bike are especially hard on BB's. I have the same BB on another bike and it works, but the I can feel the grittiness settling in.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpd131 View Post
    Please don't assume your mistake was mine. I have 4 bikes with PF BB, plenty of experience. I do understand AC bearing PF bottom brackets require preload and are tough to get right, but as far as the bearing was concerned, it was the seal that went quickly and allowed contaminants in and bearings were gritty very quickly and one side almost seized. Ultimately I think that is what caused the creak. I also know the SS bike are especially hard on BB's. I have the same BB on another bike and it works, but the I can feel the grittiness settling in.
    It's not a personal criticism, it's just that you toasted a unit because you got the sealing wrong - a pretty tough call to slag the unit IMO. Any bearing will fail in those circumstances. Granted a CK bearing has better seals but you sure end up paying for it....

    As I said I grease the facing seals to keep water out. If the preload is right, the grease will do the rest. The cost is nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    It's not a personal criticism, it's just that you toasted a unit because you got the sealing wrong
    Again, your assumption. Though I do not see the need to grease spacers for sealing, for creaking I agree, grease everywhere. If you properly grease everything up to the seal, greasing spacers should not do anything for the sealing. Think of a system that does not use spacers, like Raceface Cinch system. Regardless, I did not have good luck with my sets of BB, And I am pretty sure "opinions" are what forums are about.

    To be fair I have had bad luck with the Enduro brand ceramic bearings for the same reason. They use the same minimal resistance seal, but in my conditions I need the better seals that are on the cheaper bearings. I would imagine the Wheels Manufacturing PF30 BB with the MAX bearing would last longer for me.

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