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  1. #1
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    Listen! If you have Specialized own-brand forks or shocks, this may be of interest to you!

    There have been so many threads on here over the last year regarding problems & issues relating to Specialized's own-brand shocks & forks; most-especially, the Enduro SL, of which I am an owner (2007 SL Pro [aluminium])........There remains much confusion, speculation and general lack of confidence within bike shops and at Specialized's regional level, that I thought that I'd bite the bullet and broadly address concerns regarding certain aspects at corporate level

    I emailed the attached correspondence to Mike Sinyard (President) and Mick McAndrews (Director of Suspension Engineering) of Specialized HQ today (4th January)

    For those of you whom may feel that they are similarly affected, I hope that I have covered all the bases in the correspondence in respect of concerns which you might share and of course I shall post the response from Specialized on this thread, as and when recieved in due course

    I can't promise that anything will be achieved, but at least we might gain an understanding as to where things stand on certain issues

    **************************************

    <b>Technical Library:</b>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/AdvicefromSpecialized_E150Forkservicing.pdf" target="new">Advice from Specialized for owners considering undertaking E150 Fork
    servicing or maintenance procedures</a>

    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/CommentsonE150ForkStictioninsupportSlick.pdf" target="new">Comments on E150 Fork Stiction in support of Slick Honey Process</a>

    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/KelstrsE150ForkSlickHoneyAlignment.pdf" target="new">Kelstr’s E150 Fork “Slick Honey” & Alignment Owner Maintenance</a>

    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/SpecializedE150ForkServiceManual.pdf" target="new">Specialized E150 Fork Service Manual (low resolution)</a>

    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/SpecializedsE150ForkServiceManual.pdf" target="new">Specialized E150 Fork Service Manual (print resolution)</a>

    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/SpecializedE150ForkSpikeValvePressure.pdf" target="new">Specialized E150 Fork Spike Valve Pressure Settings</a>

    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/SpecializedInstructiononE150ForkDoubleCrown.pdf" target="new">Specialized Instruction on E150 Fork Double Crown setup</a>

    <a href="http://www.specialized.com/bc/microsite/suspensionsetup/main.html?x=y" target="new">2008 Enduro SL Suspension Setup Video</a>

    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/SpecializedadviceForkShockservint.pdf" target="new">Specialized advice regarding E150 Fork & AFR Shock service intervals</a>



    <b>Correspondence Letters:</b>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence1(Jan2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 1</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence2(Jan2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 2</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence3(Jan2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 3</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence4(Jan2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 4</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence5(Jan2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 5</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence6(Jan2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 6</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence7(Jan2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 7</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence8(Feb2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 8</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence9(Feb2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 9</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Corrrespondence10(Feb2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 10</a>
    <a href="http://www.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/data/specialized/Correspondence11(Feb2008).pdf" target="new">Correspondence 11</a>

    **************************************
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Lipps64; 01-06-2008 at 02:34 AM.

  2. #2
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    Very professional!

    Hope it achieves something for you.

  3. #3
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    Smile, things could be worse. Just think you owned a Specialized brand rear shock and no one would even look it...

    Good luck with your approach, I'm indeed curious to see if and how they react on that one.

  4. #4
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    Andy,
    Your letter is professional and addresses exactly what has been on every 07 Enduro Sl owners mind who has had problems. I agree will all your points.
    I also was looking at purchasing a new Epic or Stumpjumper to complement my Enduro.
    I had pretty much decided I would not risk it and go with another brand.
    A positive response from Specialized as a result of your letter could really make a big difference for on my future bike purchases.
    Thanks for taking the time to put this well thought out letter together.
    Jack

  5. #5
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    Didn't someone once say "The pen is mightier than a Suntour fork"?
    Last edited by Lintott; 01-08-2008 at 03:20 PM.

  6. #6
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    I have a SJ Pro with the AFR shock and Brain, and all the issues related to Specialized own shocks and forks have concerned about the reliability of my shock. Your letter has came in the most opportune time, when Specialized hasn't spoken NOTHING about it, just taking the defected parts for replacement or warranty servicing, when they should have come with a REAL response to all these issues.

    I admire Specialized for their bikes and products (the BG line is just something else than good), but in the suspension department they are falling terribly short. A simple solution was give costumers the choice of havind a housebrand fork/shock or a specific fork& shock manufacturers (Fox, Rock Shox, Manitou, Marzocchi) parts in their bikes. That would even light the way to Specialized on which kind is the biggest demand, and if it IS really worthy they keep going on the suspension business or leave it to the pros.

    Also, they should start using standard measures when it comes to shocks; if I ever want to replace my shock, I have to buy either a slightly longer or shorter shock, because they have a non-standard measure for the SJ rear shock. It draws your choices to a massive ZERO chances of ever get the right fit. That's annoying, and unfair, to say the least. Come down with market standard won't make Specialized less than they are, but making things this difficult for their costumers will.

    Hope they listen to you, Andy. You have all my support on that, because if they listen to you, they might consider all the complaints of those who have bought their bikes because they are Specialized, damn it, and not some junkyard brand. But I must say I'm even considering buying bikes from other brands, because I can't take chance on spending an enormous amount of money on a bike and then stay staring at it, because it's stucked down because of a fork or a shock or both and because, by some foolish corporate pride, they just don't give us the chance of having the simple choice to get the bike running as it should: with parts that actually work.

    WAKE UP SPECIALIZED! IT'S ALMOST NOON AND YOU HAVEN'T LEFT THE BED YET.

  7. #7
    dweeby
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    Andy,
    What a word-smith, I love the fact that you employ your bike for outings.

    I ended up buying the SJ comp just to avoid own brand suspension. They shouldn't be selling it untill it has had loads of testing becouse it takes years of experience to make reliable suspension parts, if Fox and Marzocchi still bring out the odd dodgy fork then what chance dose Specialized have. I have allways bought Specialized becouse they make great frames with a great warrenty. I would like to continue but if they start sticking ther own suspension on all frames in the future then I may have to think again.
    I hope they reply to you.

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    Well done Andy!

    I have to say thank you for sending that letter to Specialized addressing all the issues with the Enduro SL suspension.

    I haven't had any problems with my bike as yet (Enduro Comp 08) but I have to say that due to a small surgery I had few weeks ago, I haven't been able and won't be able to ride my SL for about 3 months. A quarter of the warranty period!!!!!!!

    At the moment, my worst nightmare is to think that my suspension will fail or brake after the warranty is expired and I will have to spend more money to fix it. I think specialized must bite the bullet with this issue, extend the warranty period and/or once they come up with reliable forks and shocks, do a full recall and replace them all. That is what a well known brand should do with their products in order to keep their good name and reputation.

    Thanks again and please keep us all SL owners posted with whatever response you get from Specialized.

  9. #9
    Wil109
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    I would like to say thanks Andy. Having bought Specialized in the past I am considering what I intend to buy as a replacement for my SL in years to come. I hope they respond in non corporate fashion as in “We here at Specialized are committed to providing excellent products and exceptional customer care. If you have any problems with your specialized product please contact the vendor where you purchased it for warranty repair”. I wonder how the consumer protection act covers this state of affairs. Off to do some detective work, ooooh yeah.
    I love my bike and my bike loves me

  10. #10
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    Great letter, they better listen. Unforunately I have got rid of mine, Cost me $900, but then I did get use out of it for 8 months, I didnt want to push my LBS for a full refund, as I was getting the Heckler from the same place. (oh and $600 dollars in fuel costs, + 6 days pay lost in getting the bike there etc. etc.) Even though I have the Heckler I still haven't forgotten the hurt I have felt with this bike breaking down. And I as another had been a huge fan of Specialized sine 1988. and 10 bikes. Iremember seeing the fork picture at a factory with Suntour on the boxes, though have heard somewhere they have switched makers?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by catnash
    I remember seeing the fork picture at a factory with Suntour on the boxes, though have heard somewhere they have switched makers?
    Man, are you sure? If is Suntour that is making those f***ing shocks and Specialized shocks in general, I'll be selling mine tomorrow. That's what I call STEALING from consumers. Before they had all going through Fox and then kick them away, knowing now that all this sh*t is coming from Suntour, a LOW-END shock company, what can you say about Specialized? They are just as lame as those sh*t suspensions they got on those f***ing bikes. Gotta be f***ing kidding me. I'll buy a Cannondale tomorrow, period.

  12. #12
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    Wink Black RONIN.......You had best sit down before reading this....

    Black RONIN; some information that I’ve lifted from other resources, aimed especially at winding you up!! (only kidding )

    I can’t find anything definitive on where Specialized are getting their own-brand suspension components sourced from. However;


    Where was my bike made?

    Some bike companies have a few secrets. And one of those secrets is where your bike is made or who actually made it. The bike companies like it that way because many of them rely upon the same factories to build their bikes!

    The big picture is pretty clear: around 95% of the bikes sold in the U.S. are made in China or Taiwan by a handful of manufacturers of which Giant is the largest

    Generally speaking, low to mid level bikes are made in China and mid to high level bikes are made in Taiwan. The exception is carbon; many manufacturers use Chinese manufacturers to make their carbon frames; even their high-end racing frames

    When it comes to knowing where your bike is made, shouldn’t it be as easy as looking at the sticker on your bike or what is printed on the box in which your bike came? After all, how confusing can a label that says “Made in the USA” or “Made in France” or “Made in Italy” be?

    Well; in a word ‘very’. It is very confusing because your definition of “made in” is different from the bike industry’s definition

    Generally speaking, the country claiming origin has to add 60% or more of the value of the final product. For example, you and I can import an unpainted carbon fibre racing frame from China to Spain, which will ultimately retail for $4,000 with Shimano components in the United States

    The frame and fork may only cost $200 from the Chinese manufacturer. In Spain, we will paint, decal, assemble, and box the bike for shipping to the U.S. Our cost to paint, decal, assemble, and box might be $300 and the cost of the components might be another $800

    So is this bike “Made in China” or “Made in Spain?” According to the bike industry's definition, the bike is made in Spain. The sticker will say “Made in Spain” as will the shipping box to the United States because over 60% of the value will be added in Spain

    Let’s say we took the same frame and have the Chinese manufacturer paint it, decal it, assemble it into a bicycle, and ship it to Spain. When we ship it to the United States, the label will have to say “Made in China”

    Perhaps the best way to eliminate the confusion is for the bicycle industry to follow the lead of the automobile industry and tell the end consumer the countries of origin of all aspects of the bicycle(?)

    After all, if you are led to believe by a bunch of marketing people that your bike was handmade in Spain when it was actually mass-produced in a Chinese factory, would you buy that bike? Maybe; but you wouldn’t pay a premium for it


    With these things in mind, here is a run-down of some of the key bike brands sold in the U.S. and elsewhere (information available & derived from ‘Bicycle Retailer and Industry News' 2007 Factory and Suppliers Guide’);

    Cannondale

    Aluminium Cannondales are made in the U.S. Cannondale, which was owned by founder Joe Montgomery and his son Scott. Cannondale is now owned by its key investment fund after experiencing financial problems. Cannondale's market share appears to have diminished but stabilized. Because it is owned by an investment fund, it is constantly rumoured for sale. The carbon bikes are sourced from Asia

    Felt

    Felt is a fairly new bicycle company, started by motocross guru Jim Felt. All production comes from Asia

    Fisher

    After struggling with his own bicycle company, Gary Fisher sold his brand to Trek Bicycle Company. Still involved in designing and marketing his brand. Fisher bikes are made in Asia, except for the full-suspension rigs (which are made in Wisconsin)

    Fuji

    Fuji is now owned by Ideal, who manufacturers most of their bikes. Ideal is one of the key Taiwanese manufacturers along with Giant and Merida. Ideal also manufactures for other brands. Topkey of China manufacturers Fuji's carbon frames

    Giant

    Giant is the world's largest bicycle manufacturer with factories in Taiwan, China, and Europe. Giant, a Taiwanese company started in 1972, manufacturers their own bikes, including the carbon bikes, which is unique in the industry (i.e., most other brands utilize other manufacturers such as Advanced or Martec)

    In addition to making their own bikes, Giant also makes, or has made, bikes for many other prominent brands, including Trek, Specialized, Schwinn, and Bianchi. Giant's claim to fame is that they have the most sophisticated and efficient manufacturing facilities in the bicycle industry

    A bit of trivia is that Giant owns 30% of Hodaka, a key Taiwanese supplier for many other brands

    Kona

    A California company with all production from Asia. Kona, founded in 1988, is a very small company similar in size to Marin. Fairly and Hodaka in Taiwan are key suppliers

    Marin

    A California company with production from Asia, except for a handful of high-end models. Marin is a very small company similar in size to Kona. Key Asian suppliers are A-Pro, Fairly, and Sunrise

    Schwinn

    Schwinn was for many years the largest American brand. All bicycles were made domestically until the late 80's. After two bankruptcies, Schwinn is now owned by Pacific, who also owns GT, Mongoose, and the Pacific (and some other brands). Pacific is headquartered in Madison, Wisconsin

    The bikes sold in the U.S. are made in Asia, many by Giant

    Scott USA

    Scott got its start in Sun Valley. In the 80's, Scott developed a bike line. Eventually, Scott pulled out of the U.S. market and focused on Europe

    Although the company is headquartered in Switzerland, production comes from Asia, with key suppliers being Hodaka and Giant

    Specialized

    Started in 1974 by Mike Sinyard, Specialized has enjoyed a long-standing reputation for being a leading bicycle design and marketing company

    Several years ago, Merida (a Taiwanese manufacturer) bought a substantial interest in Specialized. Although Specialized is still headquartered in California under the leadership of founder Mike Sinyard, all bikes are made in Asia. Key Asian suppliers are Merida, Ideal, and Giant

    Trek

    America's largest bicycle brand. Trek built their first manufacturing plant in Wisconsin and after many years of making its own bicycles in the U.S., Trek moved entry and mid level bicycle manufacturing to Asia. In 1992, Trek introduced its proprietary OCLV carbon process (Optimum Compaction Low Void) which is still used in its handmade carbon frames. All OCLV carbon frames, road and mountain, are still made in Waterloo, Wisconsin. The all-carbon 5000 (which does not feature OCLV) is made in Asia

    Worldwide, Trek is the second largest bicycle company after Giant

    Trek owns (or licenses) Fisher, LeMond, Klein, and Bontrager



    So the moral being; don't just buy the bike based purely on the label anymore!?!
    Lend me £20.00 and I'll buy you a drink!

  13. #13
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    Blimey you really do right long posts!

    Looks like I got of easy buying a Giant Trance X made by Giant themselves and buying a low end Stumpy also probably made by Giant that thankfully is all Fox.

    I think Trek has also moved their manufacturing of all aluminium off road frames to Asia as well for 2008, the big surprise being the Fuel EX cos that came with the made in USA sticker on it up an till 2008.

    I really feel sorry for any one who has a Specialized own suspension that doesn’t work, VERY easily explained if they are made by Suntour, if I had a shock made by Suntour I’d bin it like greased lightning.

    Black RONIN
    Nice use of the English language there!
    That new Dale looks very promising in the pics I have seen, the one with 130mm travel.

  14. #14
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    That's outsourcing for us, well, if the bike is entirely made in USA would you pay $8K instead of the $5K that's made in Asia? The most important thing is we consumers must be united in forcing this manufacturers to improve their quality control, costumer service, and warranties should be extended way beyond what they offer now. We are the customers, they need us more than we need them!!!

  15. #15
    Wob
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    True

    Lipps 64, well done.

    I own an Epic Marathon and have so far in 12 months been through two replacement AFR rear Shocks. I am not confident about what support I will get if I get more problems now my warrantee is up....

    I hope you get a response for all our sakes!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF168
    Black RONIN
    Nice use of the English language there!
    That new Dale looks very promising in the pics I have seen, the one with 130mm travel.
    Really sorry about that... But it's so damn frustrating knowing such things, that you just can't help... and all these issues coming over and over without a solution, and now you come to know Specialized suspensions are made by Suntour - what used to be made by a A-Brand like Fox is now made by some D-Class company - it's no surprise it would fail big time, since those suspensions are made for nothing but commuting and even for that they are lame suspensions. Can't believe that a 7k+ dollar bike like the EnduroSL and SJ are spec'ed with Suntour parts. I don't know, but I'm really pissed off, since my SJ Pro has that thing sticked at it. I'm trying to contact Fox to know if there is a matching shock, since I won't ride it again until I get a REAL shock on it.

    Yeah, the new Cannondales are looking very promissing, and I always was a big fan of the Prophet. I do have the chance of getting one now, and I'm going tomorrow at my LBS to see the bike, and I'll probably close the deal on the Prophet. But I'll wait to get the answer from Fox first.

    Anyway, sorry again. But that really made me going mad.

  17. #17
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    Kinda strange - Suntour used to make some nice stuff back in the day.... way back.

  18. #18
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    Andy, thank you very much for all the info. I really didn't know all that, I knew some, but certainly not all of that.

    In fact, I don't mind where a bike is made and by whom, but what I care about is QC. Oftenly, in the Cannondale threads there are ardent discussions about where bikes are made and if they are good or not because of that. CDale fans are very resistent about the idea of their bikes being produced outside the US, but that is not the real problem. It doesn't matter where bikes are made, what matters is if the company has all under control to ensure their bikes will have the expected QC. Spec'ing the right suppliers for most parts and shocks are a crucial choice that will determine if the bike will deliver what is promissed by its manufacturer or not. And that what Specialized is falling short.

    Specialized choose to take the easy - and cheaper - route this time. If the suspensions are not enough to show you how lame it's been, just look at some component choices. Not that they are bad, but they came very cheap for them and they are shooting at us with high prices that are not up to those specs. Want an example? The refurbished XT cranks, painted with the new brand's brownish silver to pass as a custom part for Specialized, when it's the old crankset with a hideous color to not spend one cent more on the new XT cranks - which were smartly spec'ed on the more expensive bikes, like the Enduro SL Pro Carbon. Well, if that's not lame, I don't know nothing anymore.

    The issues with the forks is just so surreal that is almost hilariuos. They keep spec'ing the defective forks and shocks - man, they must have tons of that sh*t laying around (oops, forgive my English again... ) - and people that buy the bike will have them replaced until the end of that defective stock. That's just plain simple. But when you get your warranty finished, and when you finally pay for it, they will send you a supposed new fork and shock, that may be still from the defective parts and be covered with a new one-year warranty to push you more and more defective parts, or if they already have unloaded all of them, finally give you a new and working part - or not, and the story goes on and on. That's ridiculous.

    That's what I care. Specialized have become lazy over the years. Just look at Trek's and Giant's new rigs. They are solid, and spec'ed with trustful parts. No need to get fancy. Cannondale has going a long way to stabilish the Lefty, so has Foes with the Curnutt shock. Scott has came the same way. But all of those parts are made by RELIABLE manufactures and suppliers, such as Fox, Manitou and DT Swiss, which are major players and have high standards for QC. How come a A-Brand like Specilized has chosen a D-Class supplier like Suntour to make their suspensions? That's something that's unexplainable. But now they are seeing the pain of it. And soon they will feel the crack that it will leave on the Specialized brand and name.

    Look, I live in Brazil, a country where with the relative amount of money you put on a bike, you could buy a brand new car such the New Beetle or a Super Bike like a CBR Fireblade or Ducati1098 in the US and Europe. Specilized doesn't have an office here, they have an IMPORTER, and they are very, very, very small in terms of market share when it comes in comparison with Trek, Scott and Giant, which each one of them has big offices here, and each one have a massive import count on every model of their catalogs. We only get Specialized Comp models and a few Pro and S-Works frames. Mine I bought a frame-only 07 SJ Pro FSR and built it up from the ground with good parts and components. But if my shock blows, I'm lost with it. I'm covered with warranty issues, but it will take ages to get it back and working, because they don't have spare parts to help me. They have to send the shock back to Specialized in the US, then wait their word about it, and then they will be able to get the shock back and return it to me. A friend of mine waited almost 6 months for a simple FSR link to be replaced. That may give you the idea why I'm so worried and pissed about it. What I payed in the frame only, one can buy a SJ Pro Carbon complete, if we go with a relative currency (as the BigMac dollar). I payed R$5290 only for the frame, which with I can buy around 750 Big Macs here. Do the math.

    I'll try to solve this problem, or I'll simply sell the frame or the whole bike and get either a Cannondale, a Trek or a Giant. I read great reviews on both the new Fuel Ex9 and Trance X0 on MBA, and always loved the Prophet. It's my second Specialized bike, and will probably be the last. Unless they retreat and start it over again. If not, I'll simply not buy their bikes and will say that they suck big time and tell my friends and everyone that asks me to not buy their bikes. They won't go broke with this, but at least I will not cope with them and their flawed philosophy, wich is deceiving consumers into buying those SH*T bikes (no excuses this time.)
    Last edited by Black RONIN; 01-08-2008 at 08:29 AM.

  19. #19
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    The compression and rebound knobs on the AFR look very similar the the knobs on the X-Fusion 02 PVA.

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    Lipps64,

    Could you make a form letter in a generic format like a word doc or text file? I imagine if Mike Sinyard received 100 or so snail mails he might be more inclined to do something. Blogs are nice places to air problems, but signed pieces of paper have more weight in a class action suit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PB Matrix
    Lipps64,

    Could you make a form letter in a generic format like a word doc or text file? I imagine if Mike Sinyard received 100 or so snail mails he might be more inclined to do something. Blogs are nice places to air problems, but signed pieces of paper have more weight in a class action suit.
    This is a brilliant idea! Lipps64, I back this up, I would love to send this letter to Specialized and hear from them too. If we all send a letter, they will have to some how come up with a solution!

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    Does this mean I would get a $900 (£450 credit note from them to buy another specialized bike) doubt it as the bike is gone, my brothers getting an S-works 07 fsr so I still reccomend them.

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    Letter

    I really want to hear the reply on that letter.

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    Listen! I suggest holding-fire for the moment.......What say you?

    Hi all

    “Yes”, I have no qualms towards providing copy of my letter originally to Specialized and displayed on here in a format that just needs alternative sender’s names & addresses editing-in and I agree that this would be a good way of asserting consumer opinion, should the situation require. Similarly, I would have no problem letting my own name be used for reference in terms of identifying the original letter and/or for that matter, as a focus for Specialized to address matters (if need be). However;

    Could I suggest though, that the option of sending additional similar copies of letters may be best kept in abeyance at this stage; as we do not have either a confirmed difference of opinion or moreover, a ‘situation’ with Specialized regarding the issues detailed within my letter; prior to any such time that we may receive a response that we may consider to be unsatisfactory;

    Indeed, my letter was not (in my opinion or certainly with any intent) drafted in an aggressive manner, nor designed to ‘get Specialized’s back up’ and I think that at the initial stage it is important that we are mindful towards not inadvertently pushing Specialized into a position where they may feel forced to go on the offensive in order to be defensive (if that makes sense[?] );

    Without doubt, there is much to be gained by all parties if these issues can be swiftly & amicably addressed!

    Moreover, all I have actually said thus-far in my letter, if it were to be translated into man-on-the-street language is;

    "I’m one of thousands of Specialized’s existing customers, whom do not have overall complaint with the brand as a whole or level of service provided. However, I wish to air concerns regarding specific elements of my current purchase, which have proven to fall significantly short of reasonable expectations and these are known to be widespread issues, whereupon, a resolute solution has not as yet been found forthcoming from Specialized. As a consequence, I consider myself to be unjustly in a position whereby I am likely to be detrimentally affected financially"

    "I request certain reassurances and similarly proffer the following suggestions, which in my opinion may alleviate some of those concerns highlighted and restore confidence in the performance & longevity of my current purchase. Please respond"

    My letter was emailed via Specialized’s Customer Care on Friday 4th January 2008 at approximately 1400 hrs GMT. It is acknowledged through experience in my own line of work; that it is common practice for large commercial entities not to enter into matters which may potentially incur legal implications by way of emails. Therefore, two further signed hard-copies of my letter were also separately posted, addressed to both Mike Sinyard and Mick McAndrews on Friday 4th January 2008 by Air Mail sent from the UK, each requiring receipt-confirmation signature by the recipient (ie, an agent of Specialized)

    It generally takes about five working days to ensure Air Mail correspondence has been received between the UK and USA. From thereon, assuming that Mike Sinyard or someone of prominent standing, whom can address these issues from a corporate level are in attendance at Specialized HQ; then, I would expect to receive confirmation that my letter had been received within a period of say, seven days

    From that time, it would be reasonable expectation to receive a full response to the contents of my letter; perhaps another seven days later as a maximum time-scale, before I would feel need to enquire as to the status of my correspondence

    Therefore, could I suggest that, whilst I hold great value in the support that is being offered by you guys (and girls ) towards achieving resolution on these issues. In respect of writing additional letters at this current juncture; it would perhaps be prudent if you could you be patient for a period of say, three weeks from the date of my original letter. Thereby, giving Specialized every opportunity to address these issues both positively & amicably from the onset of them being initially brought to their attention

    Purposefully, I omitted to include any telephone contact details within my letters & emails to Specialized, thereby, exploiting opportunity to engage with them in writing, in respect of these matters

    As previously promised, I shall be pleased to advise & provide copy of any and all responses received from Specialized reflecting my own correspondence, by means of employing this thread as the conduit for doing-so

    Is my above suggestion to hang-fire for the meantime with respect to others sending additional correspondence mirroring my original letter to Specialized considered agreeable to all?
    Last edited by Lipps64; 01-08-2008 at 11:55 AM.
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  25. #25
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    This stuff right here that you guys are going through is exactly why I didn't buy another specialized! You start using someone's proprietary parts, they've got you over a barrel all of the sudden. The only place you'll get repair or replacement parts from is a Specialized dealer.....that's not right in my opinion.

  26. #26
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    Quite right!
    It was stupid with me, the dealer referred me to Specialized, vice versa no less than 5 times, it was then that I referred myself to a new non-Specialized dealer, which proved to also be a mistake so I referred myself to the same dealer I bought the Trance X from and they seem to be doing a good job with the Stumpy now.

  27. #27
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    Lipps....excellent post

    Seeing each breakdown you posted reminds me of the manufacturer info collected from various industry insiders over the years - some of which was harder to come by than others.

    Spech has had a looong standing relationship with Giant in Taiwan. Yes the Giant facilities cranks out a variety of rebadged frames. On the more expensive fames duallies and such I would bet Hodaka but my memory fails me.

    Spech - Legal: Mention even the potential for personal injury resulting from design, manufacture, or QC defect or the likes and the conversation either verbal or email will be immediately terminated. No *****footing around on this note. Good luck on the Letter Campaign - tis a good idea but the Corporate COntrol is likely to result in a non-response/white wash. No offence meant to Crackers out there, I am of Afro descent hence I can get away with it - we do have a few special inalien-able rights. No offense to Mexicans or Aliens intended - as I am also part Mexican.

    Spech Proprietary Suspensions: I too have heard from suspension insiders that Suntour makes their forks. Suntour is a terrible large manufacturer who rebadges for many, and make a ton for PacifiBikes and some of the worlds largest rebadged bike part giblets. Why on earth anyone would slap an unknown and proven to be incompetent front fork on a mid level bike is, for lack of a more technical term - well RETARDED. No offence meant to any retards out there. Lard knows I myself dont feel too offended cept being asked to pay for this hidden garbage. Yank this crap off, put it on yer Huffy and buy from Marzocchi.

    Kona: You are spot on Fairley and Hodaka. Again Hodaka for the higher quality stuff. If you saw the welds etc etc side by side you could tell the better quality and QC fron Hodaka. I love KONA products and my experience with their customer service is surpassed by NONE.

    Tainwan made frames are a pleasure to buy. Chinese frames should be illegal. Why scrimp a few cents for a crappy product. Many of us refuse to but China (enemies of freedom) made frames. Supporting Taiwan is a vote showing your displeasure with China governmental policy. Now if we could only get a Hodaka style facility in Cambodia who have implemented regulations to eliminate slave labor and horrible sweatshops but have been losing market share to China. Hey as soon as some bike companies can save a nother nickle having frames made in Russia, or IRAQ the sooner we will be riding those. Well some might...some will refuse to cave.

    Carbon: There is a large manufacturer who makes most of the mid and high end carbon giblets...HAL my memory banks are going....can't remember

    I TOTALLY AGREE...the major components should show origin. As for who makes the sparkly grip tassles on my bikes...well I dont really care. If it is child slave labor in China tis sad indeed. This my little pony stuff is all made in China.

    Again thanks for your full post as reminder, and keep up the good fight.

    CS
    C.SPRINGS

  28. #28
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    Listen!

    I’ve cross-referenced a response that I placed on an adjoining thread regarding similar issues Anybody ever blow out a Specialized shock after 100 miles??, which I think is equally relevant here. So;


    Quote :

    Originally Posted by bhsavery


    ………….We both (and Specialized dealers apparently) realise that there were some reliability issues. I did notice your other thread and read the "open letter" to Specialized. The only thing I have to say about that is, well Specialized already has your money and has already agreed to a warranty period of one year. Seems like you want some compensation for being the "2007 Guinea Pigs" for Specialized shocks, but honestly, you're not going to get it. I think maybe that the only thing that would affect them at this point is the prospect of losing future customers………..



    Hi bhsavery

    I agree in the most-part with your comments & analysis, with the exception of a possible insinuation that Specialized customers (say, for point of argument, 2007 Series Enduro SL purchasers) should perhaps accept comeuppance for ‘agreeing’ to enact any role of being product 'Guinea Pigs'. In this day & age, if a product developer or manufacturer wishes to release a product for public consumption; it is entirely their responsibility to ensure that adequate investment & resources have been afforded to pre-release testing; whereby, any fundamental problems with the product can be identified and eliminated in order to ensure fitness for purpose before the product is brought to the marketplace

    That said, this is not a perfect world and it is acknowledged that there shall always be instances where products do reach the marketplace with inherent defects/do not fulfil the design criteria for which they were intended and in these instances; the products are invariably recalled by the manufacturer and replaced with re-engineered or improved models; erstwhile another satisfactory replacement or alternative solution made forthcoming by the manufacturer

    Seeking compensation” (as you suggest?)........No, certainly not! Merely seeking assurances and the implementation of a situation which ensures that certain ranges of bikes being sold to consumers, are in actual fact going to have components fitted with the capacity to be reliably termed ‘adequate for purpose’ and to hopefully embrace an accord with the manufacturer, which ensures that purchasers of said bikes do not incur an unjust financial detriment in the event of products being supplied not meeting these fair expectation ‘adequate for purpose’ criteria;

    This has never been, nor lays any claim in respect of a, “Specialized AFR Shock is not in the opinion of a rider, ‘as good’ as a Fox shock or a Specialized E150 fork ‘as good’ as a Marzocchi product and therefore we are disappointed” scenario. What we are talking about here are widespread occurrence of ‘catastrophic failures’ (ie, the product not physically working) and highlighting the fact that similar specification of said products are being employed as a replacement; whereby reoccurrence of problems are subsequently taking place within the one year warranty period term. Whereupon, at the end of the one year warranty period the owner of the bike currently inherits responsibility for identifying & funding a solution in respect of replacing significant & somewhat costly components, which have proven inadequate for their intended purpose from the onset at the time of initial sale and subsequently henceforth, throughout the warranty period

    These are fair & just expectations for any consumer and as such, I am confident that Specialized will be agreeable towards entering into a meaningful dialogue with the common aim of addressing these matters to all parties’ satisfaction

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  29. #29
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    X-Fusion

    X-Fusion makes Specialized forks and shocks, not Suntour . Admittedly there has been a lot of problems with the forks and shocks, but I seriously doubt that Specialized would give up this easily. They have invested a lot of money into these products and have very talented designers. I think they just made the Enduro SL's suspension technology a bit too advanced. They should have started with a coil fork instead. I think this would have been more reliable.

    Interesting to see what response your letter will get from Specialized.

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    Cool-blue Rhythm Can't say 100% that I know for sure, but...............

    Yes, I would agree that it is most likely "X-Fusion" manufactured parts, as they are the people who make a lot of the Fox stuff and also make the shocks for Scott. However, the lowers do look very Suntour though and several sources have indicated that Suntour certainly did manufacture for Enduro SL suspension but rumours have similarly abound that Specialized have latterly, since gone elsewhere for sourcing

    Again, it is pretty much the case that all the suspension forks in the whole world come from only two or three different outfits based in Taiwan. The lowers for Boxxer's were cast right next to sets for 888’s. Some companies may 'assemble' their forks in Italy or the US, but the majority of the parts were in fact made by Spinner or SR
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    You are joking aren’t you?

    Stop this rudeness now please!

    Are you seriously telling me some Fox and Scott suspension is made by X-Fusion. Surely if they can make suspension as good as Scott and Fox they would have made much better and more reliable suspension themselves.

    I’m afraid after demoing a couple of bikes equipped with X-Fusion shocks I regard them as very nearly as awful as as as--- SR Suntour ahh!!!!!!! **** **** ******* *** ******, se just writing the words has resulted in me stabbing my computer screen with a blunt axe.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF168
    You are joking aren’t you?

    Stop this rudeness now please!

    Are you seriously telling me some Fox and Scott suspension is made by X-Fusion. Surely if they can make suspension as good as Scott and Fox they would have made much better and more reliable suspension themselves.

    I’m afraid after demoing a couple of bikes equipped with X-Fusion shocks I regard them as very nearly as awful as as as--- SR Suntour ahh!!!!!!! **** **** ******* *** ******, se just writing the words has resulted in me stabbing my computer screen with a blunt axe.

    Before we jump off the Specialized parts are made by a Crappy Manufacturer bridge, lets slow down here.

    First of all you'd probably be surprised about how many bikes are made at the same factories. And all levels (crappy steel and high end carbon bike) will be made at the same factory. So dont think that because your Specialized is made in the same factory as (INSERT CRAPPY BIKE HERE) that they are equivalent frames.

    Also saying "Specialized Shocks are made by Suntour" is misleading. It does not mean that Suntour designs some shocks that they hand to Specialized. Specialized probably designs the forks and shocks and hands the specs to the factory who agrees to make them of a certain quality. This happens all over the manufacturing world. Just because they're made in the same factory as suntour or whoever does not make them equivalent.

  33. #33
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    Its like cars, how many different models and makes use the same engine from the same manufacturer. Just different body parts. Its the customer care that does it for me, everytime. A replacement fork or shock after just 48 hrs and carriage costs refunded within a week. You can't get much better than that. Out of curiosity has anyone had the AFR shock or E150 fork serviced yet? I was curious to see how well they perform after a 250/50 hours service for the fork/shock respectively. Specialized are having suspension problems, but other manufacturers have theirs. It all comes down to luck and I would back the company with a reputation for helping you out when it goes wrong.
    I love my bike and my bike loves me

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    Well I can certainly agree with you that if there was some problem that Specialized realizes with 2007 shocks, they should replace them with the 2008 model. Period, nuff said there

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhsavery
    Before we jump off the Specialized parts are made by a Crappy Manufacturer bridge, lets slow down here.

    First of all you'd probably be surprised about how many bikes are made at the same factories. And all levels (crappy steel and high end carbon bike) will be made at the same factory. So dont think that because your Specialized is made in the same factory as (INSERT CRAPPY BIKE HERE) that they are equivalent frames.

    Also saying "Specialized Shocks are made by Suntour" is misleading. It does not mean that Suntour designs some shocks that they hand to Specialized. Specialized probably designs the forks and shocks and hands the specs to the factory who agrees to make them of a certain quality. This happens all over the manufacturing world. Just because they're made in the same factory as suntour or whoever does not make them equivalent.
    No but if Suntour did make the shocks then I would expect Suntour to catch onto some of the ideas and practices used on good suspension and use them to make better Suspensions of their own, this also works with X-Fusion.

    I know perfectly well who and where the frames are made, the frames are very good and not in dispute here, especially as some of them are made by Giant who make consistently good bikes and don’t try to bring every part of kit on a bike under their own brand which is Specialized’s ultimate goal.

  36. #36
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    i just want to thank all of you for working to get specialized on track, i really appreciate it

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF168
    No but if Suntour did make the shocks then I would expect Suntour to catch onto some of the ideas and practices used on good suspension and use them to make better Suspensions of their own, this also works with X-Fusion.
    Copyrights and patents prevent such things as this. Plus if they are making a profit as things are, no need to change production processes just to make a cheaper product better. It costs quite a bit of money to change manufacturing specs on a product.
    - Just livin' the dream -

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kersh13
    Copyrights and patents prevent such things as this. Plus if they are making a profit as things are, no need to change production processes just to make a cheaper product better. It costs quite a bit of money to change manufacturing specs on a product.
    They may well stop actual copying but the company is bound to pick up certain things that they can use to improve their own designs.

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    Listen! That's entirely correct; but....................

    Accurate, justified & worthwhile comment by bhsavery above and likewise, equally accurate, justified & worthwhile comment by Wil109 above

    However, let us not lose sight of the point that; irrespective of whether significant & majorly expensive components such as front & rear suspension elements of bikes are designed, manufactured or even merely caressed lovingly in a factory which is carpeted in the Union Jack & annexed in the grounds of Buckingham Palace; or likewise put together in an igloo located in the Arctic; plant within deepest Amazonian jungle or even sited upon the front lawn of The White House…………

    This has no bearing whatsoever, on the fact that the consumer is wholly justified in having reasonable expectation that the product will not be provided in a condition likely be regulalrly interrupted by recurring mechanical failure throughout the term of a twelve month warranty (ie, it is fair to expect the manufacturer to provide reliable components capable of fulfilling the design criteria). Whereupon, at the end of the twelve month warranty period, the manufacturer should at the very least be in a position to provide assurances that satisfactory improvements have been instilled into the reliability of the product; thereby averting the likelihood of unjust future reparatory costs being transferred to the purchaser, subsequent to closure of the twelve month warranty term (right?)
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipps64
    Accurate, justified & worthwhile comment by bhsavery above and likewise, equally accurate, justified & worthwhile comment by Wil109 above

    However, let us not lose sight of the point that; irrespective of whether significant & majorly expensive components such as front & rear suspension elements of bikes are designed, manufactured or even merely caressed lovingly in a factory which is carpeted in the Union Jack & annexed in the grounds of Buckingham Palace; or likewise put together in an igloo located in the Arctic; plant within deepest Amazonian jungle or even sited upon the front lawn of The White House…………

    This has no bearing whatsoever, on the fact that the consumer is wholly justified in having reasonable expectation that the product will not be provided in a condition likely be interrupted by recurring mechanical failure throughout the term of a twelve month warranty (ie, it is fair to expect the manufacturer to provide reliable components capable of fulfilling the design criteria). Whereupon, at the end of the twelve month warranty period, the manufacturer should at the very least be in a position to provide assurances that satisfactory improvements have been instilled into the reliability of the product; thereby averting the likelihood of unjust future reparatory costs being transferred to the purchaser, subsequent to closure of the twelve month warranty term (right?)
    Quite right!

    Who started this where things are made and who makes them malarkey?

    The point is they did not fulfil our expectations so we expect some kind of compensation or replacement, or at the very least the re assurances that this will be 100% fixed by 09 and an explanation as to why these problems are occurring.

  41. #41
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    YESSIR...Implied Warranty of Merchantibility...

    Your paragraph..."This has no bearing whatsoever, on the fact that the consumer is wholly justified in having reasonable expectation that the product will not be provided in a condition likely be regulalrly interrupted by recurring mechanical failure throughout the term of a twelve month warranty (ie, it is fair to expect the manufacturer to provide reliable components capable of fulfilling the design criteria)..".

    ...if I could amend that :...the consumer is wholly justified in having reasonable expectation that the product will be suitable for use as the sellor either sold/marketed/implied/and/or in accordance with the typical use of similiar product. (Sales puffing aside) <<< Sounds like...Implied Warranty of Merchantibility, a legal term I have not used in years. Look it up ( I hope I am close) as it is the fundamental underpinning of our economy and contract law.

    Various "Lemon Laws" were enacted for this precise purpose. Regardless of a "warranty period" if the defect could not be PERMANENTLYcorrected within the warranty period, the purchaser can say thanks but no thanks to the seller as a promise and a warranty is not what we have agreed to purchase. We agreed to purchase a product that works, not one that only partialy works - warranty or not.

    The Specialized fiasco with respect to suspension components smells very very lemony indeed. In most states the state Attorney General can be solicited if the product does not meet the standards that a reasonable man would expect when purchasing. Typical recourse is that the manufacturer has the opportunity to correct said defects BEFORE the consumer demands his money back for a breach of contract---a failure to deliver a product fit for the purpose <<this is the warranty. Generally a Class Action Lawsuit can follow as resuly. The State Attorney General's office or those in several states can often force the sellor to either fully refund or refund partial to satisfy the consumer.

    In light of all this, it is very likely that the letter to Mike and Co will result in either total silence, or a kiss on the bum as any real acknowledgement will only strengther the case against them. No way will they acknowledge that they have not fully delivered on their promises as this would be a tacit acknowledgement in a breach of Implied Warranty of Merchantibility ( an implied contract ...aka Sales Agreement.). If I am wrong I will happily buy the letter originator a Ploughams, a pint of Courage Directors, as well as a Lion's bar for his knapsack to enjoy on his next ride to Warwick , Bath, or White Horse. Bloodpudding optional.

    I just wish they would offer refunds for defective forks and we could go buy a fork that works. Simple...Period. They are losing sales over this kind of stupidity and treating their customers like morons who once had money to spend on a new shiny bike and a thin veiled promise of two sometimes reliably rolling wheels.

    CS
    C.SPRINGS

  42. #42
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    It's a long shot (and I'm not saying it's true cos I don't know) but maybe the ultimate (or majority) shareholders in both companies are the same - then no-one (apart from some customers) is going to mind if designs and expertise get shared and profits of both companies flourish due to the co-operation. Just a thought.

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    Some very interesting posts, of course it is obvious that some form of representative for Specialized will be reading all of this and reporting on content. Again their action of not replying here or to your letter speaks volumes.

    I am not going to hate on Specialized, I have an 04 SJ and 06 Enduro that I utterly love. But and its a big BUT, I am watching very closely how Specialized approach this problem as it will influence my future buying, as it will probably every other Specialized customer on this site. If legal bullying tactics etc suddenly errupt, scare mongering or anything like that it will show very poorly on them for what does seem to be an obvious failing on their part on this new product.
    When the SL came out I looked at it and thought wow, I was in the market to spend a lot on a bike so was comparing top end bikes. The new technology made me reluctant, I thought if any company in the world could pull it off Specialized could, especially as they honour their frame warranty etc so well to owners. But at the end of the day I got cold feet and decided to beef up some of the spec for lift days etc so ended up building my 06 Sworks enduro.
    I can completely understand why you are looking for something past your warranty period as known faults are still present on your bike and you have no assurance of resolution. This boads very poorly for your resale value and means that you have bought a very expensive bike which will be worthless as it has no support and no solution. These things need to be addressed by Specialized imo or general consumer confidence will be lost.

    I will repeat, it is obvious that this thread is being read by someone at Specialized. If it was a frame warranty matter, new product, sometimes a general design matter someone would be on to explain design ideas or company policy as they usually have good feedback and solutions. Unfortunately this does not seem the case this time.

    I hope this does not end up with such disgruntled customers that websites etc are setup to explain the problems that owners have with their bikes and how specialized have failed to support them. If everytime someone on a bike forum put up a thread asking about products that contain AFR shocks etc and were linked to these sites and read peoples personal experiences it would be disasterous PR.

    I hope Specialized can come up to the plate with the goods as many people on here such as myself support them and would expect this.

    Martin
    Last edited by MartinRo; 01-10-2008 at 06:59 AM.

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    I don't know if many or any of you guys here own a X-Box 360, but these issues are comparative with the same QC/design/fabrication issues Microsoft had with their early consoles, which had overheat problems, graphic board and memories shut down. The "3 red lights of Death" were famous and desperating, and such was the return of dead consoles that Microsoft HAD to make a move and aid the thousand of consumers that had their consoles down. My 360 had the worst problem issue, and they replaced it, and now, new versions that are supposed to cure the problems are available, and the warranty was extended to a 3-year period for 3-Red-Light related problems for EVERY console sold that was still in its one-year warranty period, or extra coverage could be solicited if your console had those issues back then. I know that using Microsoft is not the best example I can give, but even them did something to assure the consumers that they could trust the product and the company, and that they were listening. That's a major improvement for any company like MS. I never thought I'd say this one day, but Specialized should learn from MS and feedback their consumers ASAP.
    Last edited by Black RONIN; 01-10-2008 at 06:50 AM.

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    I may be one of the few who had problems early on but no warranty problems since with either the fork or rear shock. The discussion I find interesting in that the situation is not dissimilar to when Fox first started producing bike suspension. Same basic situation - many failures, inability to repair in a timely fashion. All you heard was Fox sux. In fact, Fox hasn't improved much in the service department. Send it in for leaking seals and get the new leaking seals back. If you have a problem, you'll get a quicker turnaround and better service from Push.

    What will be interesting for me to see is the non-warranty service on S suspension. If cost is not unreasonable and turnaround good, I will not be complaining. My understanding is that S recognized that an important part of marketing their own susp components was having a good service/repair facility in place. I haven't really heard anything yet that indicates otherwise.

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    At least if Specialized doesn't like the way (not talking about anything illegal!) you acquired one of their suspension you won't get any service anywhere.
    And apparently bad PR doesn't impress them (yet).

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    He might already be aware of your letter. I imagine someone at Specialized keeps an eye on MTBR posts. Just a thought.

  48. #48
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    There are people from most of the big companies on here that look over what is being written, most of them are very nice and mainly here to help customers or just come on here like us and look around.

    I’ve never found anyone from Avid to have a go at which has disappointed me but its still good fun on here.

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    Wink Well at least they didn't catch on who "Lipps 64" was and confiscate my bike........

    Just for info; got my bike back today, having been in the Bike Shop since last Friday on this latest occasion to do with Fork & Shock warranty issues attributable to my 2007 Enduro SL Pro

    Haven’t had any opportunity to set the sag and try out what’s been done to the front internals on this occasion (went in with ‘lifeless’ characteristics and no adjustments for rebound or compression) but I can certainly see that they’ve fitted yet another rear Shock to replace the failed one that I also took the bike in with (if you look closely, you’ll spot the increased yaw dimension on the top of the Shock’s can, indicating 2008 specification). That said, the Bike Shop were very professional, extremely supportive towards dealing with the problems and bordered on providing an exceptional level of service; no qualms on that aspect whatsoever

    Hmm; whilst I can stay tongue in cheek about things during the warranty period (and until such time that Specialized hopefully respond to my letter upon which this thread is based); the bottom line is that this is now my third Shock (bike supplied during the Autumn of last year with 2007 specification Shock and two subsequent 2008 specification replacements). As for the front-end, I have previously had two blown cartridges and whatever, “We’ve swapped the internals, Sir” means on this occasion

    When you consider that there remains a wealth of wear left in the original brake pads and barring any possible unlucky event of becoming torn by a sharp rock, I should expect the tyres to provide continued service with my “all day relatively unaggressive UK South Downs single track stylee riding”, for a period corresponding at least to the extent of the one year warranty issued with the bike; then I feel that one has to ask the question…………………

    "Until the reliability issues alluded to in my letter have been resolved; exactly which components should be classified as being ‘consumable items' on this bike???"
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  50. #50
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    Are you still using Freeborn to do the work on you’re bike or have you gone somewhere else like me?

  51. #51
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    Smile Yes, nothing to moan about, Bike Shop assistance-wise!

    Yes EGF168, Paul at Freeborn dealt with this latest episode for me (very amiable; not straight out of school; listens & takes note of the problems and clearly he is an enthusiastic & knowledgeable mountain-biker)..........In my opinion, he was a breath of fresh air and credit to Freeborn; I would certainly recommend asking for him in person; dare I say it, above others at Freeborn when in need of purchase advice or assistance in processing repairs
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  52. #52
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    Specialized shocks are manufactured by the same company that manufactures Fox's shocks and are designed by a team lead by Fox's lead shock designer and a couple other guys who also used to work for Fox.

  53. #53
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    I think Paul is a bit better than the others in Freeborn too, but you must remember he is the manager and is therefore going to try to make his customers happy and keep them happy. He was the one I had trouble with, he didn’t believe any of the problems and told me to go to Specialized and vice versa.

    Unless you mean the mechanic Paul?

  54. #54
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    I think that there may be more than one "Paul", then?!

    EGF168

    I think possibly we are not talking about the same person here......I don't mean the guy in his say, mid 40's upwards, whom I have always regarded as being the Manager (who may or may not be also named Paul). The "Paul" that I was refering to looks about in his mid 20's, small goatee beard/stubble, slim, fair-haired, quietly spoken, wears a woolly hat indoors-type (typical mountain-biker really?!!)..................Sounds like a Dating Agency description
    Last edited by Lipps64; 01-11-2008 at 09:44 AM.
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  55. #55
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    Mistacken identity!

    What I said just above was in reference to the manager Paul who didn’t want to know about my problems. From the very nice description I can see you have been dealing with the mechanic Paul who is very good and listens to you’re problems, I thought the whole woolly hats thing was a bit weird when I last saw him, anyway I’m fairly sure that Paul (the mechanic) is a raodboy most of the time and that is why the shop now sells some road bikes down stairs.

    I think 2 Paul’s in one shop is a bad combination, just look at the confusion it has caused here.

  56. #56
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    Hello Chaps,

    My fork went down to Specialized on Wed with a leaky air cartridge (postage cost £20 which is warranty refundable). I had the fork for 7 months and although it was "leaky" from time to time it had served me fairly well. I spoke to the suspension specialist who fixed it. The air cartridge has been replaced under warranty, the cause of the leak was the "Low res o ring being pinched" presumably the internals being machined slightly out of spec may have caused this but I'm just guessing. The oil bath thing he said had been reset and the whole thing re lubed and new oil put in. Tested as well (which I would have expected). He confirmed that it is 75 psi for the spike valve chamber, if you put less in the spike valve such as 50 - 60 psi you need to compensate with a bit more air in the air spring chamber according to him. Its due for Saturday delivery (tomorrow) which is even better. He also pointed out that my stanchion has a little nick on it which over the space of a typical years riding will develop into a bit of scoring with mud etc. He suggests riding it till it dies (which I think he means seizes or something like that) He reckons it will need replacing at that time. The cost of a new stanchion being £100 (eek!). After speaking to them they seem very approachable and up front. Yet again fast service and advice and all under warranty. Will be even happier when I get it, fit it and make sure all is good. Come on Synard let us know that all is going to be ok with our much loved bespoke air sprung, cycle bike, trail bashing, berm carving, jump taking, drop loving, wheeled wonders of fun.

    Wil (Sorry for the nonsense - had a few beers)
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    Spike Valve Setting

    The Spike Valve is to be set at 55 psi +/- 5psi. This is factory set and Specialized does not recommend the end user change this setting, that is why there is a closed endcap. Increasing the pressure will loose small bump suppleness. If you are aiming to increase compression resistance in large hits, increase your air spring pressure and/or increase the compression damping setting (blue knob clockwise) on your damper cartridge.

  58. #58
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    Hey Tahoe,

    This is odd, who did you get that info from Tahoe? Do you work for specialized?

    Wil
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    Listen! Quick update

    Hi (all),

    Just a quick update regarding the current status of my original letter sent to Specialized, as per the forefront of this thread; as I am aware from your personal messages etc, that there are a number of you eagerly awaiting further news;

    I have received very timely response in various guises from several eminent parties within the Specialized organisation, advising of their commitment towards resolving these concerns. This has been orchestrated & supported directly from Mike Sinyard; whereupon those parties whom have subsequently become involved hands-on with these issues are exactly the right people, of relevant status & position to be able provide comprehensive responses and endorse any actions which may be deemed to be necessary

    I apologise for remaining vague at this stage; mostly because a) Discussions are very much ‘alive’ and in progress and b) I think that it is in everyone’s interest that relevant dialogue is translated into written matter, in order to avoid possible inadvertent mistranslation or miscommunication on my part

    What I can confirm is that; Specialized have thus-far demonstrated enthusiasm towards addressing the concerns promptly & thoroughly and with an amiable approach apparently devoid of corporate highhandedness and I am confident that this it is the common intention of all parties involved that this shall remain-so, in order to provide hasty resolve to the concerns raised and likewise, in consideration of achieving all parties’ satisfaction

    Please keep checking back, as I shall hopefully be in a position to relay news & updates shortly to existing owners and/or others whom have aired a vested or general interest

    Thank you for your patience

    Last edited by Lipps64; 01-14-2008 at 09:08 AM.
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    With 4000 views and counting - there's no way Spesh can ignore this. I hope you get satisfaction.

  61. #61
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    Lipps64, I have followed this thread slightly, very pleasing to hear that you have had a response and you feel it is being dealt with in a professional manner by the said company.

    Do hope something transpires for all of you whom have purchased this equipment that has not performed to spec etc.

    I too would be very un happy, of which am sure many have voted with their feet.

    Best of luck to you all
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  62. #62
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    This is a very positive response. As I stated earlier I do support Specialized and always have, finding their warranty scheme to be unbeatable. My Stumpy pro is a replacement frame for an fsrxc that cracked, it was delt with amazingly well and the option to upgrade at a very good price was taken.
    If the response is as hoped confidence in buying future designs will be greatly improved as you KNOW Specialized will give the proper support going on from this.

    I guess we have to wait until the 1 year warranty period is up at the latest to see what the plans are. As Lipps64 said it would be wise to wait until things are confirmed in writing and to give them the space to come up with a well thought out long term plan and not a rushed solution.

    Good work Lipps, and fingers crossed good work by Specialized again. The enduro SL is a master peice of current design but intitial problems do need ironed out which with changes to 08 spec and then most likely onto 09 etc seem to be happening for the good.

    Martin

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    I am following this thread with interest. Are there any known issues with the Stumpjumper 2008 Spesh brand shock/fork ? I think the problems have seemingly been more for the Enduro owners and then limited to the original designs. Specialized seem to have swapped out new for old and whilst some owners have had obvious frustrations, there are no stories I am aware of where the owners have been left with a non-working bike and no support.

    Potentially, I could still cancel the order I have for a custom build S-Works Stumpjumper - I'm in the UK and this is not looking good for any better than maybe 3 weeks from now. I am not really concerned that Specialized will let me down, I have a fair amount of faith in the company wanting to keep me buying their products and so far I have felt they have made good on what I see as teething issues with a new design.

    With the doubts about the in-house suspension, should I stick with my order ? My older Stumpjumper has the Fox Brain rear shock and Fox Talas XTT forks and these have been very reliable, I think I would prefer Spesh had stuck with this relationship but I can see the in-house brain-branded equipment being a very good unique selling point, certainly, the brain works for me and is a key reason I did not really consider a Trek/Whyte/Giant etc. for my new bike.

  64. #64
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    Listen! Hey, Count.......Don't worry........Be happy!

    Hi Count,

    You’re right; Specialized have very much provided excellent warranty cover and not erred from replacing defective parts upon return of the bike to the Bike Shops within the warranty period. However, the actual issues which I have raised are, “Why are the Forks & Shocks apparently so susceptible to recurring mechanical failure?” and “What will happen at the end of the twelve month warranty period?”

    I cannot personally comment comprehensively on the 08 Stumpjumper in respect of this and I do not want be drawn at this stage further regarding any speculation on matters relating to the foreseen outcome of my on-going/un-finalised dialogue with Specialized on the issues highlighted in my correspondence. However, having gone down the road that I have with Specialized and being made privy to what I am currently aware so far;

    If I were in your shoes, I would be up-beat and confident in making my choice of purchasing from Specialized”

    Will that do for you, for now?

    Last edited by Lipps64; 01-14-2008 at 10:41 AM.
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    The only thing I ever really found wrong with my 2006 SJ was the colour ("excrement by moonlight" being the official colour code). I've not seen reason in the issues to think my new bike, even moving from Fox to Spesh own suspension, will be any less great (and the carbon is a far better colour !).

    Overall, Specialized is a small company with a global brand, an enviable position to be in and yet really quite a fragile business model if the brand becomes tainted in any way. The suspension is about the most technical and difficult part of the bike to take in-house. I doubt any major manufacturer is going to start producing own-brand drivetrain components but I wouldn't mind betting the rest of the bike industry are interested to see how Specialized get on. There must be more control over design and better profit to take the suspension in-house. It is not a move the company can easily afford to get wrong and I'm sure they will ultimately end up with more ambassadors for the brand with the current way owners are being treated.

    Interestingly, my new bike will have the odd headset with the tapered fork so even less easy to swap out for another fork but I like the way the in-house move allows this sort of innovation and new ideas. For a major brand this is the way to separate the bikes from the mass of options available.

    Sounds like the responses thus far are positive.

    All I need then is a delivery date on my new bike and then a means to change the annodising on the old one.

  66. #66
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    Just a thought on this subject - Can somone clarify how long the warrenty period is for the suspension parts ?

    I have seen a couple of posts which state that it is 12 months, however I have been told by a Specialized Uk employee that it is 2 years ???

    Does the Uk have a longer warrenty period than other countries ?

  67. #67
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    Listen! Forks & Shocks = 12 month warranty

    Sorry "themvps",

    You've been misinformed; its a fact that warranty is currently twelve months for parts or components fixed to the frame (subject to being retained by the original owner) and this is one of the base aspects of this thread and associated dialogue with Specialized

    http://www.specialized.com/bc/sbcfaq.jsp

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  68. #68
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    So I was at a large shop this weekend test riding the new stumpjumpers, and I asked about the issues. They were quite frank. Here's the basic points that the manager there said:

    1. There were issues with 2007 Enduro E150 forks, less so with rear shocks. No problems so far with 2008 on any enduros, nor on stumpjumpers.

    2. The E150 fork issues were due to bad top caps. Really. The caps were badly manufactured and would overtighten or something. This would cause some mashing of the fork internals. Fork would SEEM to be working correctly but would eventually fail.

    3. Whether or not this actually happens, he was pretty firm that specialized was replacing any broken 2007 forks with 2008 forks. He also insinuated that they were "unofficially" extending past the standard warrantee for those bad 2007 forks and would replace them anytime in the future

  69. #69
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    Guy at the bike shop told me similar things when I questioned him about reliability (being the proud new owner of a Stumpy FSR Pro carbon). He also told me that Spesh had purchased a factory from Fox in order to start building their suspension units.

  70. #70
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    With reference to the 'official' length of the warranty on suspension components as mentioned by themvps, i have the 2008 brochure for the UK, and the warranty section at the back reads, i quote...'Limited two (2) year warranty on suspension attachments and suspension related equipment'. This goes on to include components such as shocks and forks in the text. Whether this only applies to the UK or not i am not too sure. I hope this is correct as it was one of the considerations when I ordered my S Works SJ, while being aware of the issues on the Enduro,but also speaking to the specialized rep, who allayed my fears about problems and replacements.

  71. #71
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    I also had been quoted 2yr warranty on front & rear shock via Specialized UK. Making clear they needed the general air sleeve service etc. These questions were asked before the purchase of my Enduro SL Pro Carbon '08 model.

    It was stated the frame (main frame only) had life time warranty with the rest being two years, so I'm a little confussed now.

  72. #72
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    Wink

    Not-so; Specialized have not purchased a Fox Factory. Moreover;

    Compass Diversified Holdings CODI, Compass Group Diversified Holdings LLC and its subsidiaries (collectively, "CODI") announced that on January 4, 2008, CODI simultaneously entered into a definitive agreement to acquire and consummated the acquisition of Fox Factory, Inc. ("Fox")

    Under the terms of the transaction, CODI's acquisition of Fox is based on a total enterprise value of $85.0 million. This acquisition remains a stand-alone entity

    An hour before writing this I was actually in conversation with Mick McAndrews relating to matters alluded to in this thread and where possibly some confusion may lie on the ‘Fox Factory rumour’ above; is that Mick’s own department has had manpower bolstered significantly in order to strengthen Specialized’s in-house suspension team. Many of these personnel were previous colleagues of Mick’s derived from Fox and Rockshox. Manufacturing remains contracted out
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  73. #73
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    Wink

    Mark381 et-al

    If you can hold out a few days longer; by then end of this week I shall be in possession of the outcome of all issues alluded to within this thread, including the definitive suspension component warranty policy etc from Specialized in writing and this will also be provided with details relating to aside issues, such as settings for Spike Valves and the likes

    It would be both unwise & unfair for me to jump the gun and put into the public domain facts that I have been made-aware from verbal conversations with Specialized parties until written interpretations have been completed. Not least, because following my conversation this evening GMT/Noon California local time; I am aware that Specialized are intending to undertake their own communication initiatives in order to relay the same information throughout their network of vending representatives as well as bike owners, alike (eg, announced via website)

    Can I just say; don't worry! Things have turned out very reassuring & positive

    Bear with me
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  74. #74
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    Hey Guys,

    I got my fork back today. I fitted them after some wrangling and I have to say they feel rather good. The compression and rebound damping certainly feel more like they should do. The first 3 maybe 4 cm of travel are very soft and plush (on min compression damping) then it starts to firm up (which I guess is the progressiveness) but I won't be out at any trails till the weekend to give them a proper test, boo hoo!. It wasn't till I was about to go out on the street and ride around for a bit that I realized that I forgot to fit the sag ring and the rubber frame protectors, damn it, I hate it when that happens.

    Wil
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  75. #75
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    I have been watching this saga for a year now. I am looking for a replacement for my 2004 s-works enduro. Was lusting after an s-works Enduro SL. I really don't want to spend $$$ on a new bike only to have suspension problems. If Specialized does not get their act together, I'll put my $$$ on an Ibis Mojo SL Carbon.

    I have until May to decide. I own 4 other Specialized bikes and I'll have to change my handle, but I just have no confidence in their fork/shock products at this point. Pitty...

  76. #76
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    Listen! I said.....He said.....They said (1)

    Ok, here goes with the crux items of correspondence to-and-fro

    Hope you can all open/read pdf files ok (if not, and you're an interested party, send me a message and I'l knock something out in a different format for you)
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Lipps64; 01-22-2008 at 04:47 AM.
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  77. #77
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    Listen! I said.....He said.....They said (2)

    Email from me to Specialized UK
    Attached Files Attached Files
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  78. #78
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    Listen! I said.....He said.....They said (3)

    Didn't someone say, they'd buy me a pint and a Lion Bar?!
    Attached Files Attached Files
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  79. #79
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    Listen! I said.....He said.....They said (4)

    Yes, the previous document in its strictest sense applies to the UK, as this is where I'm based and therefore primarily liaised with the UK end for Specialized; but hey, I am confident that this is a global commitment from Specialized
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  80. #80
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    Smile Just stating the obvious........................

    I know exactly which manufacturer I'll be choosing my future bike from!!
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  81. #81
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    Delicious! You obviously sent it to the right man at UK Specialized HQ unlike me.

    Is you’re bike/suspension now working perfectly as it should? (if you have tacken it out over the weekend)

  82. #82
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    Listen! And now to nail the Spike Valve setting enigma.........

    Translated from a conversation with of Mick McAndrews;

    The Spike Valve is factory set at Spike Valve is to be set at 55 psi +/- 5psi (period)!!

    The Spike Valve settings are not something intended by the manufacturer to be tampered or experimented with downstream of the point of sale by the purchaser. Tampering or playing around with alternative pressures is not the way to overcome ride quality issues or the likes; the Spike Valve is merely a "trigger release" - If you've heard things other than this on the trail (which I think many of us have); it's a misnomer; the Spike Valve is not the adjustment to be made

    Yes I know (and it has been discussed with Specialized whom are to release a directive/reminder through all of their Distributors [particularly in the UK]), that the Bike Shops themselves are playing around with the Spike Valves and initially sending out or returning after repairs with all sorts of pressures between 40psi and say 95psi; but again, correct procedures are going to be re-comminicated by Specialized

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  83. #83
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    I wonder why only the Enduro and Epic AFR Brain, and not the Stumpjumper AFR Brain?

  84. #84
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    That's great, so at least we now know the outcome of spike valves. It's great to see TF Tuned involved that's some kudos. It's a shame this wont help my saga, oh well 8 weeks too late for me.

  85. #85
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    Can you still get Lion Bars in the shops? I haven't seen any for ages. Thanks again Andy, you rock! Your command of the English language and lexical semantics is exceptional. Also thanks to Specialized. Lifetime warrantied frame, 2 year warranty on suspension, my next purchase will be an SXT early 2009 I think and my 3 kids will no doubt want in on the action to.

    You rock!!!

    Wil
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  86. #86
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    Yeah! This is of topic but I haven’t seen any Lions bars for years I wonder why? Perhaps someone is hijacking the ship before it arrives and confiscating all the choco bars.

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    Andy,
    During your conversation or correspondence was it stated or implied this extended two year warranty and transferable warranty would apply in the United States or just U.K.
    I did not see a reference to US or world wide.
    Thanks for your good work.

  88. #88
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    Excellent news, and what i really hoped for from Specialized. Good work with non confrontational communication in tackling the problems at hand from both yourself and Specialized.
    This gives much much more confidence in buying future products and new technologies. Also very good to see that they understand about you not wanting your bike to devalue for sale if required.

    Again well done.

    Martin

    PS Specalized - I know your watching, Andy may even be an employee - conspiracy theory! lol

  89. #89
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    Wink Universal as I see it!

    Sideup

    I'm very much of the opinion that the implication is world-wide implementation (don't quote me on this, but I fail to see how it could be any other way [same bikes, same specification!]). Remember, my talks were with the American end but as one one expect, written dialogue was liaised with more locally to the logistics of my purchase; but the outcome refers to a globally available product
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    This makes it a bit easier to reccomend an enduro SL to others, I'll watch out for the wording of what you can expect from the Spesh website. Might get into a dialogue with the bike shop now that Spesh are finally getting their act together (to get some of that $900 back) with what should have been there for the first users of this bike. The 09's should be sorted.

  91. #91
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    For one reason, the SJ shock hasn't had any issues. And because you cannot replace a 08 SJ shock with an 07 SJ shock

  92. #92
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    ... and if we just ... Employee? You reckon??

    MartinRo

    As for the way Specialized have dealt with this; I cannot recall such a fine example of non-capitulation, whilst still going the full mile (and then some!) to reassure the consumer and provide an excellent level of customer service

    That's my opinion; but as for being an employee?? Hmmm........No; once self employed, forever self-employed for me I'm afraid - Would Specialized want the likes of me? .........Come to think of it; I'd probably have better chance of getting getting admission into a Lesbian Club than through the door of my Local Bike Shop again
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  93. #93
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    Smile Yes; repair-wise and the bits that they put on........

    EGF168

    Yes, despite the few days of particularly heavy rainfall, I've managed to get on the grit-finished "family-ride-friendly" section of The Downs Link between my place and Brighton to give it a bit of a spin and in all honesty (despite me being aware that I'm beginning to sound a bit like part of a Specialized advertising campaign ) the suspension is running very sweet following latest repair......

    But do be aware; despite the bike having replacement Shock and attention to the Forks, the bike was in the shop for 4 days (not a problem at all in itself; but you never know to what extent they may have been really dotting the "I's" and crossing the "T's" because they had cottoned-on who "Lipps64" was [by the coincidence of my bike being in the shop and my references made to where I ride/my location].........Certainly some of the banter I have had since, suggests that they had more than an inkling at the time of bike pick-up); but hey; do I care?!
    Lend me £20.00 and I'll buy you a drink!

  94. #94
    Bike Breaker.
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    Yeah, mine worked for a couple of days then the Welsh trails got too much and it wanted time out.

  95. #95
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    Thanks for all your efforts

    Hi,

    Just thought I ought to say thanks for what must have been a lot if work.

    I am sure I speak for many when I say I owe you a debt of gratitude. I only wish I were able to say it in as eloquent a manner as you would....

    Best wishes,

    John

  96. #96
    Wil109
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    Do you happen to know any good lesbian clubs? If you do give me a shout and I'll lend you that £20. Oh I took my bike with fixed fork out for a spin round my estate. I think my original E150 bits must have been knackered the day I got them. I pedalled and pedalled and it felt like the bike had finally come alive. Where as before any pedalling was met with futility and all speed was sapped by the fork but tonight it felt like the bike was meant to be. Going trail side to Learnie Red Rocks "Ride the Divide" up Inverness way on Sunday to give it the full works. YEEEEHAAAUUWWWRR!
    I love my bike and my bike loves me

  97. #97
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    Smile

    Wil109

    You actually have raised a good point possibly without intention...........Some of the common problems associated with the 2007 E150 Forks actually went unrealised by many owners who didn't raise issue because the Forks appeared to be "going through the motions" (ie, going up and down when riding on the rough). So it was just assumed that this was the way that the Forks were meant to be/a "characteristic" - I for one had exactly the same experience as you describe, when I took my much heavier & older Ellsworth Joker out for a spin; I remember noting, "Hang on a minute, this is a much faster bike then my new one!!" (not now that my Enduro SL pro has been sorted, thankfully )

    Incidentally, one thing I did overlook mentioning, following conversation with Mick McAndrews; I can confirm that the 2007 Forks which are devoid of the stanchion markings (ie, the horizontal black line marks at the top of the forks) do correspond to the colloquial term, "The kiss of death", as had previously been the whisper (due to the fact that these related to the particularly early batches from a now discontinued contract supply chain)
    Lend me £20.00 and I'll buy you a drink!

  98. #98
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    In line with the other posts thanks for tackling this issue with Specialized.

    I am a bit thick, so please bear with me, but can someone clarify the following:-

    1. If you have a problem with a suspension fork and this is then replaced by Specialized, is the warranty extended for 2 years from the date of the new replacment part (for this part only) or is the warranty set at 2 years from the original purchase date.

    2. In light of the last post:- Some of the common problems associated with the 2007 E150 Forks actually went unrealised by many owners who didn't raise issue because the Forks appeared to be "going through the motions" (ie, going up and down when riding on the rough). So it was just assumed that this was the way that the Forks were meant to be/a "characteristic"

    I am about to take delivery in 2 weeks time of a new SL, is it possible that someone could actually clarify what the fork should actually do & explain how I should identify whether the fork on my new bike is actually working correctly ! Obvioulsy I would rather check that the fork is 100% ok before I leave the shop !

  99. #99
    Wil109
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    Hi themvps,

    Tricky one this, I believe (but don't quote me) that UK consumer protection blurb etc dictates that a new product will be warrantied from the date of receiving it. However I don't think that Specialized would source you an entriely new fork, from reading Lipps correspondance, IMHO the deal is that they would replace the internals (spike valve, air cartridge and the like whatever was defective) however again these are new and I am of the opinion that they alone would be covered for the warranty period starting from the date of receiving but am not sure if I'm correct. Best phone up Specialized UK and see what they say. They are (possibly were) very approachable and informative before all this kicked off.
    As for what the fork should do is quite comprehensive. Goto the specialized web site and check out the videos they have, I have a list of what I expect mine to do now:

    1. Hold the air you put in originally but minus approx up to 10 psi when you measure it again. (Shock pump capacity).
    2. Not suffer that much from pedal bob. When you pedal smoothly the fork should not move that much (but this is affected by the compression/rebound settings you dial in). The softer it is and the harder you pedal I think its fair to expect some form of bob (up and down movement).
    3. The dust seals (black bits where the stanchions meet the lower legs) should not pop up with a hiss on the riders left and throw the spongy bit inside at you when cycling and coat your christmas waterproof gore tex jacket with shock oil (again indicative of an air leak).
    4. Increasing the air in the main chamber should make the fork feel stiffer.
    5. Fork returns to full travel (i.e. back to 150 mm) after being compressed i.e. if you press the forks down, some have mentioned about sticition or play in the first sort of cm in travel. The speed of the forks return being dictated by the rebound damping dial, less damping faster return, more damping more "sluggish" return.
    6. Travel adjust, fully clockwise, press the fork down quite hard and the travel should remain at 115 mm I think (check out the original suspension setup video on the specialized web site if its still available). Release by turning fully counter clockwise and the travel should return to 150 mm. The speed of return I think, is goverened by the pressure you topped up the fork to and the rebound damping but not too sure.

    This is only my take, hope it helps any, I'm sure others will offer opinion.

    Wil
    I love my bike and my bike loves me

  100. #100
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    Thanx

    LIPPS64 Hi just a quick note to say thanx , for all your time and effort youve put in , Ive had an Enduro pro carbon for 9 months and while I,ve been one of the lucky few R.E. the fork , its still hard to relax and feel happy with my 3 grand bike ( like you should ) when all and sundry are telling you its flawed , But thanx to your efforts I can sleep a little sounder ,
    Also thanx to the guy from the bikemagic forum for putting me on to this thread, cheers.

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