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  1. #1
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    Enduro 29er climbing ability

    Any thoughts about the Enduro 29er climbing ability?

    I hope the Enduro 29er will climb fine, and won't be like the Enduro 26, where the superb downhill ability is a tradeoff for climbing ability...

    Mo.

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    Enduro 29er climbing ability

    Have you pedaled a 2013 enduro? They are a night and day difference over previous years in the climbing department.

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    Hey mtnbiker83!

    I must say I'v tried only the 2011 Enduro and I remember I had to make an effort on my way up. But the Enduro compensated me as it blasted all the way down.

    I'v also tried a 2012 Trek Remedy on Trek's demo day a few months ago, and all I can say is that the Remedy climb far better than the Enduro.

    Last May MBA Action had a 6" trail bike shootout, where they wrote that the Enduro's Comp job is going downhill, so the rider pays his dues climbing...
    Bike Test: Trail Bike Shootout | News | mountain-bike-action

    So, I was happy to read that the 2013 Enduro has a better climbing ability , and I do hope the Enduro 29er would be a good climber too.

    I know that the Enduro 29er was designed as a real AM bike, so I'm really not expecting any superb carbon XC climbing ability. but still, I'd like it to climb fine.
    Last edited by mo6500; 03-26-2013 at 01:09 AM.

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    How does the new Enduro compare to a new Stumpy?

  5. #5
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    Ive done big climbs on a 2012 S-works Enduro, a 2013 S-works enduro and I own a 2013 Stumpy Evo. The 2012 climbed ok with the fork dropped and the shock set to the firm climb mode.
    The 2013 SW Enduro climbs even better, but since the CCDB doesnt have a platform mode you need to sit and be very smooth or it bobs.
    The 2013 Stumpy is a good deal easier to climb with than either of the Enduros. The climb mode on the CTD shock is very stiff, and is great for climbing.
    I havent tried a 2013 Enduro with a CTD, but if the shock is anything like the one on the stumpy I bet it would climb a lot more like a stumpy and less like the older Enduro.
    2013 Stumpy Evo
    2014 Fatboy

  6. #6
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    Well, in the Specialized Enduro Comp 29 First Impression it says that "Hauling this bike’s 30.3 lbs. (33.2 lbs. with pedals and a dropper post) up the trail wasn’t awful".

    I was glad to read that. Still waiting to test the alloy Enduro 29 myself!

    First Impression: Specialized Enduro Comp 29 | Dirt Rag Magazine

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  8. #8
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    The enduro 29er is a sluggish climber at best. There is a definite improvement by going to the "granny", better than if you are running the middle with the CTD set in "climb", but all in all it's a poor climbing bike. I didn't get it because it would be the best pedaling, but classic FSR traits are that the harder you pedal up a steep hill, more more the squat-effect sucks your power away without propelling you forward. This isn't noticeable on flatter terrain and again, going to granny gear definitely improves it, but it doesn't go away and it does not climb like a DW link (a rocket comparatively). The "CTD" settings are not exceptionally useful (relating to climbing) IMO. The SE comp is also pretty heavy (obviously). I am going to lighten it up some, but it's forte is going fast in the other direction. The bike met my expectations for climbing, which which weren't great, but that means I wasn't disappointed or surprised. It's a great bike overall.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The enduro 29er is a sluggish climber at best. There is a definite improvement by going to the "granny", better than if you are running the middle with the CTD set in "climb", but all in all it's a poor climbing bike. I didn't get it because it would be the best pedaling, but classic FSR traits are that the harder you pedal up a steep hill, more more the squat-effect sucks your power away without propelling you forward. This isn't noticeable on flatter terrain and again, going to granny gear definitely improves it, but it doesn't go away and it does not climb like a DW link (a rocket comparatively). The "CTD" settings are not exceptionally useful (relating to climbing) IMO. The SE comp is also pretty heavy (obviously). I am going to lighten it up some, but it's forte is going fast in the other direction. The bike met my expectations for climbing, which which weren't great, but that means I wasn't disappointed or surprised. It's a great bike overall.
    Of course. This bike's main focus is the decent. I haven't messed around with the shock settings yet but I climbed a good amount on it. Slow and steady. Can you have a 29er with 6" of travel that also climbs really, really well?

    The bike is quite heavy. I'm not sure how I can really lighten it up without going to a carbon frame. Tubeless? Carbon wheelset?

    The new Bronson has about the same travel, although it's a 27.5" wheel. Roughly the same price and weight. Compare the climbing to that?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuppie View Post
    Of course. This bike's main focus is the decent. I haven't messed around with the shock settings yet but I climbed a good amount on it. Slow and steady. Can you have a 29er with 6" of travel that also climbs really, really well?
    Absolutely, but no one has designed it yet. Modern suspension designs like DW link and a couple others do not have that squat that causes the bike to pedal poorly uphill. The stronger you are and the bigger gear you are able to turn, the more the FSR punishes you by robbing more power. If you can get the chain down a little, like on the granny, it's a little better, but now 2-ring setups are more popular and you can't go down quite as far as you used to without making some changes. Not that this fixes the problem, it just makes it a little better. This is why they invented the "brain", because this design has these inherent shortcomings. It may be a while before someone designs a 6" 29er that pedals exceptionally well uphill, so in the meantime propedal and other aids will help and we'll just deal with it. It's kind of hard to explain, but every pedal-stroke with a few of those "other" suspension systems feels like you are accelerating uphill. It's a much more true "going forward" feeling, vs. putting a certain amount of energy down and not getting all of it returned into forward velocity. It feels very "firm" in the forward direction (responses to changes in pedaling), while still having gobs of traction and no bad bump absorption habits. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to design longer travel 29ers with linkage suspension, although travel probably won't go above 6".

    I've been on FSRs for years, I've had 4 now, I know what I'm getting into with them, especially relative to the 10+ FS bikes I've owned. The shortcomings of the FSR suspension uphill are not enough to make me pass up this bike, but a Trance X, Sultan, Tracer 29, LTc this is not...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Absolutely, but no one has designed it yet. Modern suspension designs like DW link and a couple others do not have that squat that causes the bike to pedal poorly uphill. The stronger you are and the bigger gear you are able to turn, the more the FSR punishes you by robbing more power. If you can get the chain down a little, like on the granny, it's a little better, but now 2-ring setups are more popular and you can't go down quite as far as you used to without making some changes. Not that this fixes the problem, it just makes it a little better. This is why they invented the "brain", because this design has these inherent shortcomings. It may be a while before someone designs a 6" 29er that pedals exceptionally well uphill, so in the meantime propedal and other aids will help and we'll just deal with it. It's kind of hard to explain, but every pedal-stroke with a few of those "other" suspension systems feels like you are accelerating uphill. It's a much more true "going forward" feeling, vs. putting a certain amount of energy down and not getting all of it returned into forward velocity. It feels very "firm" in the forward direction (responses to changes in pedaling), while still having gobs of traction and no bad bump absorption habits. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to design longer travel 29ers with linkage suspension, although travel probably won't go above 6".

    I've been on FSRs for years, I've had 4 now, I know what I'm getting into with them, especially relative to the 10+ FS bikes I've owned. The shortcomings of the FSR suspension uphill are not enough to make me pass up this bike, but a Trance X, Sultan, Tracer 29, LTc this is not...
    Yeah, I get what you're saying. Link a few of those aids like the propedal stuff you're talking about. I'd like to check it out.

    So, you are getting this bike, then?

  12. #12
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    The problem with DW-like suspensions that are designed to climb well is that they have anti-squat. The positive of anti-squat is that your suspension doesn't move much when you have pressure on the pedal/chain as it is caused by chain tension. But if you encounter an obstacle with greater force then the chain tension that causes the suspension to compress, you will notice it as pedal feedback. I find this really annoying because it can unbalance your pedalstroke. I'd rather have an FSR suspension design, although the Enduro also has a little pedalfeedback at times. I don't think the suspension design on the Enduro causes it to sag on the middle ring, it's just the way you climb on it, i.e. you cannot pedal nice and round if you're climbing and powering on the middle ring as much as you can on the granny. On the granny, you tend to sit and grind.

    I think the Enduro 29er climbs really well when seated. I can clear sections I never would have thought I could clear with such a heavy bike.

  13. #13
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    But then on an anti squat design, you get a shock with much lighter slow speed compression. This gives much better sensitivity and traction to the rear whell.

    I tested the enduro29, and really wanted to like it, but the performance uphill was a let down. The FSR expert i rode just before (with brain) was much better in this aspect.

    I'm now waiting to see the 29" long travel offerings from BMC (high anti squat and really short chainstays, carbon...) and may be Pivot.
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    The problem with DW-like suspensions that are designed to climb well is that they have anti-squat. The positive of anti-squat is that your suspension doesn't move much when you have pressure on the pedal/chain as it is caused by chain tension.
    The problem with mini-link suspension designs (DW, VPP, etc.) most people will want shorter chain stays. By suspension design it just isn't possible. But you will have a better climbing long-travel bike. So one of these companies puts out a killer mini-link bike, but "on paper" the chainstays are too long compared to the enduro 29.

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    What type of climbing do you do? Long fireroads or steep technical stuff? I find the Enduro does fine on the steep technical stuff. I'm always bored and not really motivated when climbing on fireroads, so no bike climbs good for me there

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    I almost quit mountain biking altogether when I was unhappy owner of Santa Cruz Blur LT. That thing did not want to clear obstacles while it did feel so good at parking lot test. 26 inch Enduro I ride now was like cheating in comparison. No more anti-squat linkages for me, thank you.
    Brain approach looks much more interesting as it also provides platform for pumping - alas Stumjumper FSR retains its long tail for the next year...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    What type of climbing do you do? Long fireroads or steep technical stuff? I find the Enduro does fine on the steep technical stuff. I'm always bored and not really motivated when climbing on fireroads, so no bike climbs good for me there
    Amen. I would much rather climb tech trail than smooth fireroads.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuppie View Post
    Yeah, I get what you're saying. Link a few of those aids like the propedal stuff you're talking about. I'd like to check it out.

    So, you are getting this bike, then?
    I already have the bike
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    The problem with DW-like suspensions that are designed to climb well is that they have anti-squat. The positive of anti-squat is that your suspension doesn't move much when you have pressure on the pedal/chain as it is caused by chain tension. But if you encounter an obstacle with greater force then the chain tension that causes the suspension to compress, you will notice it as pedal feedback. I find this really annoying because it can unbalance your pedalstroke. I'd rather have an FSR suspension design, although the Enduro also has a little pedalfeedback at times. I don't think the suspension design on the Enduro causes it to sag on the middle ring, it's just the way you climb on it, i.e. you cannot pedal nice and round if you're climbing and powering on the middle ring as much as you can on the granny. On the granny, you tend to sit and grind.

    I think the Enduro 29er climbs really well when seated. I can clear sections I never would have thought I could clear with such a heavy bike.
    That's not really correct, the DW link has 100% anti-squat, what that means is that 100% of your pedal forces are countered, leaving it completely unaffected by bumps. Now, that's slightly ideal, but in practice it is close to this and I don't notice any "tugging" or stalling like I did with older high-pivot designs, just gobs of traction uphill through the rough. Some people like to bag on DW saying there's too much "chain tension", but I don't think that's the case. The design has just enough so your pedal forces are taken care of, but not so much (more than 100%) that it' causes the suspension to "hang up". It's honestly a few steps ahead of an FSR IMO.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  20. #20
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    Anti-squat means suspension lock-out due to chain tension. So if the suspension moves, it will tug on the chain and you should notice this. If it doesn't tug on the chain, it means it is locked-out (= no suspension movement) and you have the same traction as on a hardtail. I don't see the benefit of DW.... BTW, the only DW experience I have is on a Turner 5Spot, sold it after only 9 months.

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    I'm guessing that the differences of the 2012 and 2013 enduro climbing is shock related no? Bet it could be even better, if not great with that new Cane Creek DB Climbing lever shock....

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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    Anti-squat means suspension lock-out due to chain tension. So if the suspension moves, it will tug on the chain and you should notice this. If it doesn't tug on the chain, it means it is locked-out (= no suspension movement) and you have the same traction as on a hardtail. I don't see the benefit of DW.... BTW, the only DW experience I have is on a Turner 5Spot, sold it after only 9 months.
    Sure, to counter pedaling force. If it was affecting the bumps, it would be like 110% or 150%, that's where you'd have chain tension affecting the bumps. Think about it for a second, if you pedal, you'll generate say 10lb of force, the suspension is designed to counter that with 10lb of force in the opposite direction (100%), if a bump comes along, it's as if there's no force to overcome, because both are roughly equal. As much as you want them to be, the DW bikes are NOT like old high pivot bikes from the 90s. They actually work and suspension has progressed past the 1990s. Even car suspension has progressed past traditional anti-sway bars and linkage arrangements, there are now cars without anti-sways that perform better than their "conventional" counterparts. Progress is amazing and one of the best attributes I felt riding the DWs was how they accelerated up rough rocky chunk, gobs of traction, great damping, and you rocket forward all at the same time. Hadn't really felt that before, except on hardtails without the absorbing-the-terrain part.
    Last edited by Jayem; 07-18-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    Anti-squat means suspension lock-out due to chain tension. So if the suspension moves, it will tug on the chain and you should notice this. If it doesn't tug on the chain, it means it is locked-out (= no suspension movement) and you have the same traction as on a hardtail. I don't see the benefit of DW.... BTW, the only DW experience I have is on a Turner 5Spot, sold it after only 9 months.
    That is interesting. I've done extensive demos of the 429 and Sultan and didn't notice any pedal feedback, although I wasn't really aware of the pedal feedback concept at the time. With the rear shock open, I felt like they were both very fluid on chunky climbs.

  24. #24
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    There are differences in the climbing ability of different suspension systems. No question.
    But in my experience they arenīt THAT night and day.
    Sure. Compared to a VPP/Maestro or high single pivot the FSR shows a bit more bob.
    But I donīt feel that this is energy-sapping bob like my first full suspension bikes of the late 1990s did.

    I agree that a pedal platform is a must for an FSR bike. And that it wasnīt needed on my Reign X or Santa Cruz Heckler.
    But as everything is a compromise, the FSR stays neutral in all situations.
    No funky changing suspension feel when bunny hopping or fooling around.
    Active through braking and very plush.

    Some antisquat designs feel faster. They also come with compromises though. As always.
    I think the "better" suspension designs are all good nowadays and riders should pick what they feel best on.

    I do have to say though, that I had a 2007 SX-Trail - DHX5 and interrupted seatpost. That thing sucked all energy from my legs when climbing. But it was a beastly heavy build also.
    I didnīt even like it when pointed downhill, although everyone raved about it and loved it.
    Sold it cheap and bought a SC Heckler. Which I loved.

    Go figure...

  25. #25
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    Must have been a trait of the Turner 5Spot then. When I was climbing that bike and run over a root or something, the chain would give way a bit after wards. Upon encountering the obstacle, the rear wheel would absorb it, like any good suspension. This caused an amount of chainpull, which most of the time I didn't notice. But when the obstacle had passed, the suspension would relax again and would release the chain it just pulled. This for me was very noticeable and unnerving. I must say, this was only a problem in the granny gear (22T). On the middle chainring it was almost unnoticeable. I didn't notice it very much on a Niner Jet RDO that I test rode the other day.

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