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  1. #1
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    The Avid problem

    [SIZE=2]Well well well, back at the start of October I did a few posts saying that me and a couple of friends had looked at the movement of the horst link rear suspension and its effects on braking on a 2007 Specialized Stumpjumper Comp with Avid Juicy 5 brakes. They used 2 laptops to calculate all the forces involved and also used little laser things to measure the bike correctly. I myself wasnít really involved in the testing even though it was my bike but apparently they found the Horst link was partly responsible for my calliper moving so often-with the bolts tightened properly.

    Any way I relayed this info to some of you lot in my posts and you and the testers just couldnít believe it so while I was ill last week I went back to re do the test with my brakes on a different Stumpy we eventually found that one of the pistons in the calliper was braking about Ĺ mm further in than the other which was causing the calliper to pull to the left.

    Anyhow I would like to apologise as it was not the bikes fault at all, Iím sorry.

    They also made a few improvements to the Avid brakes after fixing the piston, they got rid of those stupid oval washer/nut things and made some tighter fitting titanium ones, they also put new seals into the lever to stop it from exploding dot5.1 all over me like last time and they put organic pads in to stop the squeaking, the brakes are now working quite nicely on my old Cannondale hardtail, no squeaking and no calliper movement or rubbing.

    The brakes will remain on my signature because of the trouble they have caused.

    Merry Christmas, except to the people on here who told me to tighten my calliper bolts-Iím not an idiot.
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
    Just Wanna Ride!
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    I've had some weird issues with a couple different sets of hydros so it's not just the Avids that are troublesome. I run mechanicals exclusively now. People say that don't have the power of hydraulics - but how much do you really need? - just run 1 step larger rotor than normal and the braking is awesome. Great modulation and plenty of stopping power.

    No leaks! No damaged hoses! No bleeding required and no special tools! Adjust for reach and engagement point easily. Low cost. No worry with accidentally depressing a brake lever with the wheel off. Replace the cable with a part from any shop - and you can even keep a cable in your pack for use on the trail!!

  3. #3
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    [SIZE=2]You can have problems with any type of brakes, on the Stumpy I now have 2008 Shimano XT which after a long bout of ďturkey gobbleĒ work brilliantly and they look amazing.
    [/SIZE]

  4. #4
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    While we are on the subject of avid brakes, I have a set of avid juicy sevens on my stumpy they were working great until i put my bike into the shop. I was getting shifters fixed and ended up getting my pads replaced. While the mechanic fitted the new pads he said he had some issues getting the rear ones in and had to drain some fluid. My breaks are now feeling unresponsive and soft. After trying magura martas and being blown away by how overly sharp they were i'm really disappointed with my j7's performance. Do my brakes just need a simple bleed and possible top up of fluid.

    Cheers
    Broom Broom

  5. #5
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    So, it wasn't the suspension design then, correct?

    The caliper could have probably been rebuilt and would then work fine, which is something that can't been done with the Shimano units (unless the 2008 units can be, which is cool). A dragging caliper is a fairly common occurrence in the automotive world, but with varying reasons. Usually just changing the line and a rebuild will take care of it.
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  6. #6
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    All I have to say is that Avid make horrible brakes. I ran the Juicy 7's for months and had nothing but problems. Check my earlier posts. The rotors are crap, they bend like a twig and the calipers are always rubbing or ringing no matter what I try. I am a bike mechanic and I do know my stuff. They are just cheap crap and that is why they are being put on so many bikes. I recently put a pair of Hayes Strokers on and what a difference. No problems truing rotors, no issues with rubbing, just strong brakes. Bleeding is easy compared to the Avids as well.

  7. #7
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    Well, I have 07 XTR calipers and XT levers - they have some turkey gobble, some 'crystal ring ringing' and some funky noise - nothing consistent... what gives?

    I might put my old Hayes Comp prototypes back on. Best brakes I've ever tried.

  8. #8
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    I love my Juicy 7, but I agree on the rotors; they suck. It took a bit to burn them in with when new, and they work well now. I read a post from someone here commenting on rotors with "razor cuts" (slots, as it turns out) making more noise and it does make sense. I have seen rotor with just circular holes that aren't as bad, but I've seen a set of Maguras that ring and squeal quite a bit. I think I will get a set of Hope rotors, as the aluminum center with steel ring along with the venting pattern look like a good setup for brake torque vs. noise, but I will research that a bit more when the time comes.

    Also, I agree that the upper-level Stroker levers have a nice feel. The base ones are awful (as found on a Trance X2), but the ones on a Trance X1 have a nice, strong feel that's similar to my Juicy 7.

    I have only bled a set of Dual Control Shimano XT levers and calipers, so I don't know how the Avids or Hayes work but I read that bleeding the Avids is pretty easy provided you have the bleeding kit. Is this not the case? Did you have the Avid bleed kit?
    1997 Specialized Stumpy Pro
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  9. #9
    Meh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by broom broom
    While we are on the subject of avid brakes, I have a set of avid juicy sevens on my stumpy they were working great until i put my bike into the shop. I was getting shifters fixed and ended up getting my pads replaced. While the mechanic fitted the new pads he said he had some issues getting the rear ones in and had to drain some fluid. My breaks are now feeling unresponsive and soft. After trying magura martas and being blown away by how overly sharp they were i'm really disappointed with my j7's performance. Do my brakes just need a simple bleed and possible top up of fluid.

    Cheers
    Broom Broom
    They need to be bled. I've had several sets of Juicy 7s and installed many more sets. I've had no complaints. For what it's worth, I have been running Hayes rotors. They do seem to be less problematic than the Avid offerings.

    Bleeding Avid brakes can be time consuming. The instructions provided are very thorough. If you know how, you don't have to go through all those steps and you can bleed them much quicker (essentially the same way you would bleed Hayes Nine/Mag/Comp brakes with a syringe).

  10. #10
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    [SIZE=2]Student Driver
    The levers on my Trance X2 are exactly the same as the X1, they are both Hayes Stroker Trailís, I think what you meant is that the Stroker Ryde feels pretty rubbish by comparison but they arenít on any of the Trance X models-too cheap and tacky for Trance X models.
    The Hayes Stroker`s on my Trance X are brilliant, theyíre the 1st brake Iíve forgotten about since v-brakes.

    Gticlay
    If you can, take your bike out in the wettest and muddiest conditions possible to get the brakes dirty and it should clear the ďturkey gobbleĒ because it takes the surface of the disc and pads but still leaves it with enough shine to mean you donít have to brake them in again but be sure to get the mud all over the callipers and discs, it worked for me on my 08 XT brakes.

    Cooleymtnbiker1
    I completely agree with you. I will never recommend or buy the juicy series of brakes again in my life.

    Merry Christmas!
    [/SIZE]

  11. #11
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    [SIZE=2]Student Driver

    I’m sorry, you are looking at the web and catalogue specs which are substantially different to what actually turns up on the Trance X2, the brakes, suspension and gears are different to the specs and pics. This is mine but the cranks, seat, shifters are not what came on it, but you can see what the brakes are that should come with the X2.

    [/SIZE]

  12. #12
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    OK, I guess both of you aren't using USDM versions of the Trance X2, but I do know for a fact that the Trance X2 comes with the crappy Hayes Stroke Ryde levers. So, from the US page:

    Quote Originally Posted by From Giant US Website
    size XS (14.5), S (16), M (18), L 20), XL (22)
    color Black / Anodized
    frame ALUXX SL Aluminum, 5.0" Maestro Suspension. Frame Set Available
    fork Fox 32 F120R 120mm travel
    shock Fox Float R
    handlebar Race Face Ride XC low rise, 31.8mm
    stem Race Face Ride XC, 31.8mm
    seatpost Race Face Ride XC, 350 x 30.9mm
    saddle WTB Devo Comp
    pedals Shimano PD-M505
    shifters Shimano Deore Rapidfire
    front derailleur Shimano Deore
    rear derailleur Shimano LX, top normal
    brakes Hayes Stroker Ryde, Disc 180F/160R
    levers Hayes
    cassette SRAM PG-980 11-34T, 9-speed
    chain Shimano HG-73
    cranks Race Face Ride XC, 22/32/44
    BB Race Face X Type, external
    rims WTB LaserDisc Trail
    hubs Alloy Sealed
    spokes Stainless Steel 14g
    tires Kenda Nevegal, 26x2.1 folding
    I know that it has them because the bike is a rental and I rode it; the levers suck. Giant's international site reads that the Trance X2 has Shimano brakes and levers, so I imagine the other markets have other levers. But yes, they do sell it with the crappy levers and they are still, very, very crappy. Also, the USDM Trance X2 comes with an LX rear derailleur, and not the XT Shadow.

    Now, did you use the Avid bleed kit by chance?
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  13. #13
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    [SIZE=2]Student Driver
    I find it very hard to believe the US gets such a bad deal, but youíre right, the levers feel awful by comparison to my higher model ones.

    I have the English model which has differences with the fork, rear shock, rear mech and brakes, and our front tire frequently turns up as a Blue groove or a Nevegal. The English web-site has the correct specs for all 5 X2`s I have seen in dealers if you are interested.
    [/SIZE]

  14. #14
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    Well, considering I have ridden the bike (which is how I tried the Ryde version of the lever) I do know that this is how it is spec'd. While you may find that very hard to believe, it's what I rode and what it came with. The website (which I quoted above) is the correct spec of the bike that I rode, and is the same spec as the 08 catalog that I have in front of me. Why is this so hard to believe? I mean, the site is correct. Remember, it's like a $1900 USD bike here, and considering the International version is a different spec, and I can only imagine what the UK/Western European market is priced at, is it so hard to believe it? Besides, I live in the US so I would get what's sold here. Oh, and I have an 07 Stumpy FSR that I love, while I am not a big fan of the Maestro suspension (the test ride on the bike in question is how I formed that opinion) anyway.
    1997 Specialized Stumpy Pro
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  15. #15
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    [SIZE=2]$1900 you say? thatís allot cheaper than I was expecting so that must explain the cheaper kit on the US Trance X2, here in the UK its £1500 which in US dollars is around
    $2500 so there is a substantial price difference. I know [SIZE=2]itís not a straight comparison of money but its still allot.
    [/SIZE]
    Just out of curiosity have you tried the X1? cos that has better kit that in terms of ride is equal to my upgraded X2.
    [/SIZE]

  16. #16
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    I figured once you saw the price (you know, since you saw the specs and all ) you might get a better understanding of why. The X1 is a great spec (they have one on the floor for sale, and why I like the Trail version of the lever) but the parts spec wasn't why I didn't care for the Giant; it was the suspension. I prefer an active suspension no matter what the circumstance, especially during rocky climbing. I love the design, and feel that it (along with similar designs such as dw*link) are really cool because of the tuning options available. But the suspension goes from bobbing like mad when simply spinning (unlike my Stumpy) to almost full lock-out while climbing (unlike my Stumpy). I want full suspension to be suspended, and rarely use the ProPedal on my bike (and I don't even bother with the lock-out on it). This is with the suspension setup for my weight, and has been the same with the Reign, Reign X, Trance X, and Anthem that I have tried. If I liked any version of shock lock-out, then I would just go straight to a Giant (Trance X1 or X0) considering its build quality, dealer network, company support (warranty), and overall value. But, I love active suspension designs that don't exhibit pedal kickback or bob when the shock is fully open (little low-speed compression damping) and each Horst link/FSR style frame I've ridden seem to cater to my riding style.

    Oh, and before I get any response to the dw*link reference I wanted to add I've been told that the Ibis implementation is really nice and active during rocky climbing. I haven't ridden one yet, but hope to when I consider my next bike. The reference was just because of the linkage design looks similar and has multiple pivots for more tuning options.
    1997 Specialized Stumpy Pro
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  17. #17
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    [SIZE=2]There is nothing un active about maestro suspension, its one of the most active out there, but you cant really feel it working as much as the Stumpy. Iím a fairly light rider even though Iím very tall but I have never even had any bobbing on my Trance X so either the bike was set up wrong or you may have been standing up to get up the rocky hill which can cause bobbing more than the Stumpy or you donít ride in the most smooth and efficient way, Iím sure if you posted that on the Giant forum no one would believe you.
    [/SIZE]
    I had the Ibis Mojo for a weekend earlier this year and it was the best bike Iíve ever ridden and I would have one now but I have a tight £1500 budget for my bikes which is why I went with the Trance X, anything that isnít stock on my Trance X I got free from a very good dealer .

  18. #18
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    Oh boy, I got from "I don't believe you about the Trance X parts" to "I don't believe you about the Trance X bobbing". Amazing. Well, let me help you believe here:

    1. The Anthem was setup by a person who is co-sponsored by Giant with his shop; he weighs as much as I do.

    2. The Trance X, Reign, and Reign X were setup by a Giant/Specialized shop that I hang out with (and occasionally race for).

    So yes, they were all setup fine. The Maestro has a locking behavior when there is significant chainline force applied. The suspension will appear virtually locked (that is, no visible bobbing) when spinning at a slower rate with a lot of force on the pedals. This is why the suspension is very, very stiff during climbing and completely worthless to me. For those that prefer locking out their suspension or wish they had a hardtail no matter the terrain, then this is for them.

    So, before writing that something I state is impossible, again, why don't you actually try this for yourself. Try spinning at around 80-85 RPM or more, with no shock lockout of any kind (this is easier on the Trance X2, which has a Float R [and yes, it really, really does have a Fox Float R] since it has no lockout provision). Do this on a steady road climb and you will see it start bobbing. This was repeated by other "non-believers" like you.

    Next, take a Horst link and the Trance X and find a nice, rocky climb (being loose and rutty will help this). Take both bikes up at the same time with a helper (preferably someone that believes in the Horst link, as this is more fun) and spin slowly in higher gears. Make sure to watch the Horst first (staying about 6-10 feet behind) over the terrain. Switch bikes, and repeat. The Horst will have a tendency to squat, while the Maestro perform the same locking behavior I mentioned earlier. The Horst easily, and willingly, compress over rocks and extend for ruts while the Maestro will feel firm, and neither compress much for rocks or extend in any meaningful way for ruts.

    If you want to continue this, just PM me. However, if you are trying to make a point in the future don't keep telling the same person you don't believe him, nor bring in an outside "forum" and claim that they will not believe him either. In fact, I have posted in there occasionally: I posted about the Maestro in general and the weight of the Trance X (it was a good bit heavier than they thought/were told it would be) when it shipped. If there are real facts about something, then that's great. However, the "I don't believe you" argument isn't terribly useful.

    /me
    1997 Specialized Stumpy Pro
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  19. #19
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    [SIZE=2]I DECLARE THIS FLAME WAR AT AN END!

    Unless you are going to try to send me a PM about this.

    This thread is dead, supression fire , we`re moving out.
    [/SIZE]
    Last edited by EGF168; 12-31-2007 at 02:31 AM.

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