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  1. #1
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    2016 stumpjumper fsr

    I haven't really followed the evolution of the SJ FSR over the years. What are the chances the the SJ or SN Evo gets the shorter rear end of the E29?

    The need to go all carbon too btw

  2. #2
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    It doesn't make sense that they didn't do it for the 2015 lineup. The SJ seems to be the forgotten line of Specialized's lineup. The Enduro seems to be getting all of the love. The SJ is basically unchanged since 2012 other than different components and a frankensteined 650b that is getting less than stellar reviews (including from me who tried it out with an open mind). During the same timeframe, the Enduro got the short chainstay treatment, and a 650b that is universally praised. I hope the 2016 Stumpy line gets an overhaul.

  3. #3
    JCL
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    The Stumpy is close to perfect so what would they change? It just won trail bike of the year in the most respected UK magazine.

    The long rear centre is what gives it stability. Unless the trail requires more travel it's faster than the E29. If they put 430mm rear centre on it they'll ruin it. 440mm would be a fairer compromise between intermediate and experienced riders. The bodged 650b Enduro is hardly universally praised either. The BB is 10mm too high, the seat angle too slack, the rear centre is too short etc.

  4. #4
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    Stability does not necessarily equate to perfection for everyone. I have the E29 and it's perfect for me except a few pounds and a couple mms of bottom bracket height. I assume this could be addresses with less travel.

  5. #5
    JCL
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    Stability is what faster riders want. I can assure you of that. You can ride around a stable bike at slow speed but you can't ride around a unstable bike at high speed.

    I own a Camber Evo, a Stumpy Evo until recently, and an E29.

  6. #6
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    So, JCL, what's wrong with short chain stays?

    The E29 is an outstanding bike (the E26 is, too, by the way). Anything wrong with it for you?

    I agree the SJ is a good trail bike, but the move to 29 means longer wheel base. I expect Spec will introduce a new SJ frame design for the 2016 model year, with a slightly reduced head angle and slightly shortened chain stays. IMO it will not get an Enduro-like geo with super short chain stays to keep the models disctinct and cater to different rider preferences.

  7. #7
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    I think it's time to see a Epic 2014 like frame,more straight lines and solid feel.
    Not sure they will shorten the chainstay. I wish it had a shorter chainstay when I bought it but got used to it at the end and just loving it now. Speaking of wich I did a group ride saturday with some steep and ultra rocky sections,my Stumpy just climbed like a goat, all the others "short chainstay guys" had to pick the lines not to drop a feet. Passed them with a grin. What we'll mostly see is more 650b options for sure and the oh so cool SWAT thingy.
    I'm considering to let this bike go for a Fatboy but after saturday's ride I'm thinking twice..
    '15 Tarmac Sworks
    '15 Canyon Spectral 8.9

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    Stability is what faster riders want. I can assure you of that. You can ride around a stable bike at slow speed but you can't ride around a unstable bike at high speed.

    I own a Camber Evo, a Stumpy Evo until recently, and an E29.
    For me, I can keep a shorter chainstay bike stable at speeds (I spent lots of time on the e29)... And suspension has come a long way. But what I can't do is turn a limousine long bike in tight switchbacks that the bike just isn't capable of. I'm sure where we ride has a lot to do with it. If you are not seeing the disadvantages of the long chainstay, then we definitely have different riding conditions.

  9. #9
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    It's been very common to see many bikes that aim for a "playful" feel to adopt as short a chainstay as possible (usually accompanied by long front center, short stem and wide bars) This seems to be the common formula. The question is, what direction does specialized want to take the stumpy far line? The 26" stumpy is an incredibly playful bike, with the some of the shortest stays on the market @ 420mm. In contrast, the 29er version has quite long chain stays @ 450mm. The 650b almagamation/abomination(?) is in the middle, @ 435mm. So, each wheel size seems to have a large variance in length. Will Spec aim to unify the line's aim with 2016? We'll see.

  10. #10
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    The SJ 29er is a long stable bike, and I find it rather bland and boring compared to my 26" SJ. The 29er might be faster and more stable, but the 26" is definitely way more fun and agile. I love the feel of the E29 (stable AND playful) but it has way more travel than I need. The 2016 SJ better come with the shorter rear or I'll probably switch to another brand. The Camber fills that 29er role of long, stable trail bike, and the SJ needs to move back to its place in between the camber and Enduro and not feel like a Camber with a bit more travel. Put the Brain on the Camber, and make the SJ what is should be, a mid travel trail bike that is fun to ride.

    I have high hopes for the 2016 SJ 650b Evo. The 2015 geo is too steep at 68 degrees, but if you move up to the Enduro 650b you have the way too slack 65.5 degree HT. The 2016 needs to be in that 66.5-67 headtube angle range so it fits right into that sweet spot of a do it all bike that climbs, descents and rides nice on rolling terrain. It also needs a rear on par with the Enduro 650b. The current SJ 650b has a longer rear than the Enduro 29er. That's not right either.
    2013 Stumpy Evo
    2014 Fatboy

  11. #11
    JCL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    So, JCL, what's wrong with short chain stays?

    The E29 is an outstanding bike (the E26 is, too, by the way). Anything wrong with it for you?
    .
    Weight distribution is the most important aspect of geometry. It dictates front/rear cornering grip bias, suspension spring rate balance, seated climbing performance etc.

    Dirt bikes are 45/55 at most yet it's not uncommon for large bikes with long front centres to have 70/30+. And people wonder why front wheels are washing out before rears.

    Short rear centres on 29" have become an engineering challenge that enables companies who succeed to then market the geometry as an advantage, regardless of it offering a performance advantage or not.

    Again. You can't ride around poor weight distribution. Even a guy like Aaron Gwinn couldn't.

    Regarding the E29. The head angle is at least a degree too steep, BB 10mm too high, rear centre 10-15mm too short. The bike was conceived in its current form to answer the criticisms of 29" being slow and unresponsive (most probably by inexperienced riders) at the expense of optimizing performance.

    Long travel 29" has huge potential but I feel with the lack of involvement from other manufacturers Specialized will continue to try and compete with 650b, or even match previous 26" wheelbases to create a marketing 'story'.

  12. #12
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    Individual racers' results are little indication of a bike's quality. Actually, forget about pro racers when choosing your bike. There's a lot more to finishing on podium than just having a great bike.

    Regarding geo: I'd much prefer a 29er like the E29 over the Stumpy FSR 29. Short chain stays don't necessarily result in front wheels washing out (reach and stem length play a bigger role). The E29 and the Stumpy have identical reach (445mm size Large). Obviously, Spec has hit the nail with the E29, but it's still the first model. They will continue to improve the geo. With the trend towards slacker head angles, the next iteration will probably see a head angle reduction of about 1.

    Other manufacturers: Spec is not alone in the long-travel 29er area (BMC Trailfox, Niner WFO, others). 650B has really caught Spec off guard, they rushed the 650B Stumpjumper frame and it shows. Even the 650B Enduro frame appears to be a temporary solution. I expect we'll see Spec 650B frame designs built from the ground up soon.

    650B will draw all the developers' attention for a season or two, and will probably become the standard size, but that doesn't change that there is a market for long-travel 29ers.

  13. #13
    JCL
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    Reach and stem length has a near zero effect on weight distribution. It's one of the biggest myths in geometry.

    Out of the saddle weight distribution on a bicycle is the BB location within the wheelbase.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    Reach and stem length has a near zero effect on weight distribution. It's one of the biggest myths in geometry.

    Out of the saddle weight distribution on a bicycle is the BB location within the wheelbase.
    This is just plain wrong. Since reach is measured from the BB location, it has a lot to do with weight distribution, and especially out-of-saddle.

  15. #15
    JCL
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    How much of your total body weight do you think you're putting through the bars?

  16. #16
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    All I know is I've been to Whistler many times, rented a ton of different DH bikes and the bikes that felt the most stable in a straight line had LONG chainstays, and the bikes like the Norco Aurum and Spesh Demo which have really short chainstays felt way more playful and fun and way easier to jump.
    I think riding style makes a big difference. Bikes with long stays and long wheels bases feel dead to me and something you just hang on and let it plow over stuff. Short chainstay bikes have always felt more agile and lively and flat out for fun to me. Maybe it means a little less stable and slower, but I'm not riding for time, I'm riding for fun.
    2013 Stumpy Evo
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    Count me in with the guys who want a fun bike, not a bike that will shave seconds off a strava course. The SJ is in no way a race bike. Specialized makes bikes that serve that purpose. If they don't shorten the stay and make it playful, it's off my shortlist.

  18. #18
    JCL
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    "The SJ is in no way a race bike"

    I have no idea what that means. The Evo has won more Enduro races than the E29.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    "The SJ is in no way a race bike"

    I have no idea what that means. The Evo has won more Enduro races than the E29.
    I guess I need to educate myself on that. I'm not doubting your knowledge, but do you have a link to back that up?

  20. #20
    JCL
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    Well Curtis Keene won the 13 Oregon Enduro Series on the SJ Evo 29". Mitch Ropelato beat Aaron Gwinn (on his Demo) at that Fontana race.

    As I said earlier a number of UK journalists, Steve Jones (Dirt) ride/race SJ Evo's.

  21. #21
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    Horses for courses.

    Also, and again: Race wins depend on the riders, first, and foremost. A rider whose skill level and style fits a particular course will have a much larger impact than bike choice. Curtis Keene would have won the Oregon Enduro series on the 26" Enduro, the 29" Enduro, as well. Pros are outstanding riders, and what works for them does not necessarily work for non-pro riders, and vice versa.

    I think it is bad advice to argue bike choice based on what races pro riders win.

  22. #22
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    I race my 26" Stumpy Evo in both Enduro and a few XC races and have several top 3 finishes in both. I have a 160mm Pike up front and it's more than capable as an enduro racer, but at 25.8lbs I can firm up the suspension and do well at XC too. I've rode the SJ 29er many times and on long fast rough sections it might be faster, but on regular trail rides I dont think it is anywhere near as fun.

    There seems to be 2 main styles of riding I see which my friends, those that like to "play" and pop off things and stay agile and light on the trail, and those that like to "plow", basically hang on and let the bike do the work. The long rear on the 29er makes it feel like a "plow" bike vs the "play" feel on the 26.
    2013 Stumpy Evo
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  23. #23
    JCL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Horses for courses.

    Also, and again: Race wins depend on the riders, first, and foremost. A rider whose skill level and style fits a particular course will have a much larger impact than bike choice. Curtis Keene would have won the Oregon Enduro series on the 26" Enduro, the 29" Enduro, as well. Pros are outstanding riders, and what works for them does not necessarily work for non-pro riders, and vice versa.

    I think it is bad advice to argue bike choice based on what races pro riders win.
    I was responding to the ridiculous statement that a SJ Evo 29" is in no way a race bike.

    Short rear centre bikes are either more playful or become unstable earlier. I think the latter is correct. I find the SJ Evo 29" plenty agile enough at high speed, not so much at lower speeds but firstly I don't really care about slow speed performance and secondly the reduced low speed agility (stability) is caused by BB drop, not rear centre length.

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    Dam I think this is gonna turn into another mega thread. Subscribed.

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    As a good friend of mine says... "A good bike (the right bike) will help you through certain parts of a course, but the bike will never make you faster. That's all you."
    And I really find it to be true. When my training reflects it, my racing results show it, but if i'm out of shape and just bought a new bike... it will never matter what bike it is.
    That's just my take on bikes being "Race bikes" or not. A bike is a race bike if you race it... period.
    2015 Epic Expert WC
    Sworks Phenom saddle, EC70 flat bars and seatpost, crankbrothers candy 3's

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