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Thread: 2014 Epic

  1. #1
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    2014 Epic

    Im hearing some inside info that 2014 is going to be seeing some changes to the epic frame. Electronic shifting from XTR too.

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    2014 Epic

    I saw a prototype on the trail and it had fox electronic front and rear lockout. i hope they get rid of the brain system and go with fox electronic lockout for sure

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    If they are going to use electronics on a bike it needs to do much more then just flip a switch. How about electronically adjustable travel and dampening. Push a button and the fork adjusts down to 70mm travel and the rear goes into a climb mode as well. Then in Descend mode the fork extends to 140mm travel with a plush active rear shock. Since its electronic it should able to adjust to anywhere in between as well. Climb with 100 mm travel and descend with 120 might be perfect for some. While they are at it they can program the computer to adjust tire pressure and saddle height for the different modes as well.
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    this is pretty interesting if it is true. i wonder and hope that anything they do would be able to be retrofitted to some older models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalfaraway View Post
    While they are at it they can program the computer to adjust tire pressure and saddle height for the different modes as well.
    adjust tire pressure? you want them to put an air compressor on the bike now?

  6. #6
    There's always next year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauerkrause View Post
    adjust tire pressure? you want them to put an air compressor on the bike now?
    Its going to be a LONG time before this kinda thing could be placed on an Epic type bike, but at company showed a system something like this at Sea Otter (granted, on a fat bike). BikeRumor's got a post up about it currently.

    I have zero knowledge of what '14 holds, but I have a hard time imagining that Spec would drop the brain concept completely for electronic lockouts F & R, as currently, those systems don't do what (Specialized has claimed) the brain does. While I'm not looking forward to having it serviced when I need it, I am loving the brain concept on my '13 Carbon Comp Epic. Using electronics to move the brain adjust dial into a place where one could adjust on the fly could be very attractive.

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    If there going to put electronics on a bike it will be done gradual,like the i-phones e.t.c so they can add to to it every year to boost sales

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    I'd like one with a Sid WC and Monarch with the Full Sprint remote!

  9. #9
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    Xtr Di2 has been vaporware for a bit but with the refreshed brakes, chain and weight weenie wheels they showed I expect it sooner then later. Now for the epic they like to keep refining it and with WC victories and Olympic Gold attached to the current design I feel thy will keep refining but not redesign. Then again...

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    Durian, I heard they are putting it on a vegan diet.

  11. #11
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    2014 Epic

    Quote Originally Posted by padrefan1982 View Post
    I have a hard time imagining that Spec would drop the brain concept completely for electronic lockouts F & R, as currently, those systems don't do what (Specialized has claimed) the brain does. While I'm not looking forward to having it serviced when I need it, I am loving the brain concept on my '13 Carbon Comp Epic. Using electronics to move the brain adjust dial into a place where one could adjust on the fly could be very attractive.
    Although the current Fox electronic shocks are only manual electronic lockouts Rock Shox have their Monarch E.I electronic rear shock already, exclusive to Lapierre, Ghost and Haibike. That's supposed to use accelerometers to automatically react to the terrain, allowing the rear shock to open and close rapidly as needed, giving function similar to a Specialized Brain rear shock. It adds 350g or so of weight over a standard Rock Shox Monarch shock.

    Lapierre + RockShox Launch Auto-adjust E.I. Shock Suspension - BikeRadar

    There isn't much in the way of rider feedback that I've seen but on a Lapierre XR29 the E.I shock works ok apparently:

    Lapierre an their 29er FS

    If you look at the Rock Shox or Fox pricing their electronic rear shocks add significant cost. Maybe the S-Works Epic would come with electronic shocks but the cheaper models are unlikely to, due to the expense.

    The Specialized Enduro 29er looks like a template for the rest of the range. Now they've shown it works the same design features are likely to be rolled out for the other bikes too. If there's going to be any major changes to the frame it will probably be the adoption of the new mid mount front derailleur, so that the chainstays can be shortened. The 29er Epic chainstays are quite a bit longer than they were on the 26" Epic.

    26" Epic 425mm chainstay
    Specialized Bicycle Components

    29er Epic 448mm chainstay
    Specialized Bicycle Components

    "The first obstacle to designing a 29er with short chain stays is the placement of the front derailleur; the tire and front derailleur want to occupy the same space. Traditional high-, low- and direct-mount front derailleurs can contact the tire if the rear end is too short. Specialized worked with SRAM to develop a new front derailleur, dubbed ‘mid-mount’, as well as a special mounting plate, called the ‘Taco Blade.’ Mounting the front derailleur to this plate, rather than to the seat tube, gave engineers the freedom to position the seat tube so that the rear tire would not contact it under full compression. The Enduro 29’s seat tube curves forward to provide swingarm clearance, but that on its own wasn’t enough; the seat stay brace is U-shapped to eek out every last millimeter of travel from the rear end.

    This project was a learning experience for Specialized, one that may trickle down to the rest of the company’s big-wheel line. “We learned some key lessons that will influence future design. If we can make things shorter, tighter, stiffer and better we’ll do it,” Benedict said."
    Bikeradar.com

    Specialized Enduro 29 Launched - BikeRadar

    .
    Last edited by WR304; 05-04-2013 at 03:48 PM.

  12. #12
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    I've often wondered why they don't link front and rear together with a hydraulic circuit so that pitch and dive can be controlled better.

    As for electronics, easy to say but hard to do. To do electronics properly you would need a lot of sensors on the bike, and they all add weight and complexity. And until you think about it, it all seems pretty straight forward, but the "electronic" solution can increase complexity significantly over the mechanical solution, particularly as the mechanical solutions are working well, are light, and now reliable.

    Having said that, the "easy" electronic solution is for electronic damping using either a controlled damping gate or the electronically controlled damping fluid that GM & Audi use in some of their cars.

  13. #13
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    2014 Epic

    I thought that electronic XTR Di2 was rumoured to be coming out next year?

    You can get an idea of what XTR Di2 will be like from the K-Edge Ki2 conversion kit. Ki2 is a Shimano road electronic group modified by K-Edge for mountain bike use. It has a longer rear cage to work with wide ratio cassettes and the road climbing satellite shifters are in a new housing for flat bars.

    http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/07/28/...in-bike-group/

    Looking at the claimed weights for the latest 2013 Shimano Dura Ace 9070 Di2, against the mechanical Shimano Dura Ace 9000 groupset, XTR Di2 may not have much of a weight penalty over XTR mechanical shifting.

    http://road.cc/content/news/59808-sh...series-details

    For Dura Ace 9070 Di2 the electronic front and rear derailleurs together weigh 107g more than the mechanical versions. With the lighter internal battery the electronic wiring harness is about the same weight as the mechanical gear cables.

    DURA-ACE 9000

    Rear derailleur (RD-9000) 158g

    Front derailleur (FD-9000) 66g

    Total weight 1,978g

    Total weight with cables 2,072g


    DURA-ACE 9070 Di2

    Rear derailleur (RD-9070) 217g

    Front derailleur (FD-9070) 114g

    Total weight 1,957g

    Total weight with wiring and internal battery (SM-BTR2) 2,047g

    The potential for weight loss with the mountain bike version is in the shifters. With electronic shifting all they need to be is small switches, which can be much lighter than the current XTR trigger shifters that weigh 201g for a pair. The Ultegra Ui2 satellite climbing shifters for example are 60g for a pair.

    http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/sho...ifters/cat/529

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=85146

    The problem is going to be compatibility. Each time Shimano have brought out a new electronic groupset they've changed the wiring so it doesn't work with their previous groupsets.

    http://lavamagazine.com/gear/tested-...#axzz2SSHQ6Msy

    On a mountain bike with electronic suspension and electronic shifting you ideally want both the suspension and shifting to run off one battery. If the wiring isn't compatible between the two (eg: Rock Shox (SRAM) E.I electronic suspension and Shimano XTR Di2 may use different connectors) then you'd end up needing to lug around two batteries.

    One thing you can be certain of is that an Epic with electronic shifting and electronic suspension will be brutally expensive. If the 2013 S-Works Epic is $10,000 USD with mechanical shifting and mechanical suspension a version with electronic shifting and electronic suspension would probably be nearer $15,000 USD.

  14. #14
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    2014 Epic

    Some other background links about the Rock Shox E.I and Fox ICD electronic suspension.

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/ei-and-...hock-2012.html

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Fox-iCD...n-Earnest.html

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    $5,000 for electronic shifting and suspension? That seems a bit high. You can buy a seriously nice bike for $5,000. I'm thinking more along the lines of another $1,000 to $2,000 and even that is a lot of money.

    I kind of hate the idea of all these electronics on mountain bikes. Why fix what isn't broken? I'd much rather see hydraulic shifters and derailleurs and better suspension kinematics and damper circuits than heavy batteries, actuators, sensors, and microprocessors.

  16. #16
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    Batteries won't be heavy in the future.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmckechnie View Post
    $5,000 for electronic shifting and suspension? That seems a bit high. You can buy a seriously nice bike for $5,000. I'm thinking more along the lines of another $1,000 to $2,000 and even that is a lot of money.

    I kind of hate the idea of all these electronics on mountain bikes. Why fix what isn't broken? I'd much rather see hydraulic shifters and derailleurs and better suspension kinematics and damper circuits than heavy batteries, actuators, sensors, and microprocessors.
    Agreed. There is quite a different UseCase between a road bike and an MTB. The MTB has a lot more exposure to the elements notwithstanding the way the machines get knocked around.

    I personally would not buy a electronic shift MTB as when I do longer wilderness rides and electronics would offer me nothing, other than a residual concern that failure would leave me stranded. On a recent multi-day journey I took a spare derailleur cable and that was my peace-of-mind...

  18. #18
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    2014 Epic

    Quote Originally Posted by mmckechnie View Post
    $5,000 for electronic shifting and suspension? That seems a bit high. You can buy a seriously nice bike for $5,000. I'm thinking more along the lines of another $1,000 to $2,000 and even that is a lot of money.
    Specialized have past history in this area. They've demonstrated previously that if the demand is there then they will hike the price massively from the previous year, and sell out anyway. The Specialized S-Works Epic 29er being a case in point. Why sell a bike for a little more if the target audience will happily pay a high price to "have the best". If anything putting a high price on the item makes it more desirable.

    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/articl...e-point-32350/

    When it comes to high end Specialized S-Works models the MSRP pricing becomes "aspirational", and the concept of value for money increasingly goes out of the window. At the top end the prices are based on what the market will bear. The S-Works tax is no joke.

    A $5,000 USD increase may sound a lot but it would only be bringing the Epic into line with their road bikes. The Specialized McLaren S-Works Venge being $18,000 USD and the Specialized S-Works Venge Super Record EPS being $14,000 USD.

    You can get an idea of how a future S-Works Epic with electronics may be priced from looking at the current pricing of their flagship road bike, the 2013 Specialized Venge. Specialized publish the US MSRP of the different bikes on their website.

    2013 Venge Expert - Shimano Ultegra Ui2 electronic shifting $4,500 USD
    http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bik...dcompact#specs

    2013 S-Works Venge - SRAM Red (2012) mechanical shifting $8,250 USD
    http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bik...vengered#specs

    2013 S-Works Venge - Dura Ace Di2 9070 electronic shifting $12,000 USD
    http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bik...vengedi2#specs

    The price difference between a $4,500 USD non S-works Venge with carbon fibre frame and Ultegra electronic shifting, and the $12,000 USD S-Works Venge with carbon fibre frame and Dura Ace electronic shifting is $7,500 USD. That's a significant price difference for relatively marginal gains and an S-Works sticker on the downtube.

    The difference in MSRP between the S-Works Venge SRAM Red (2012) mechanical shifting and S-Works Venge Dura Ace Di2 9070 electronic shifting is $3,750 USD. Apart from the drivetrain and brakes those two bikes are almost identical, with the same frame, wheels and finishing kit. This pricing gives an idea of why an S-Works Epic with electronics could cost a lot more also.

    If you look up the MSRP of just the two groupsets this jump in price is more than you'd expect. The difference between the MSRP of the two groupsets being only $1,564 USD. An extra $2,186 USD has been tacked on from somewhere. Because they can.

    SRAM Red 2012 $2,575 USD
    http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/...red-road-group

    Shimano Dura Ace Di2 9070 $4,139 USD
    http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/...group?page=0,1

    My guess is that you'll see exactly the same thing whenever a future electronic S-Works Epic is first launched also, only you'd have a double hit - Big price increase for the electronic shifting, and then another big increase for the electronic suspension.

    Lower end non S-Works versions with the same functionality, as seen with the Venge Expert, would probably be much cheaper and more reasonably priced. Although they'd be introduced a year or so afterwards. If you want the newest equipment straight away it isn't cheap.

    Cycling is the new golf after all.

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    Kind of seems like high end mountain bikes are becoming something of a status symbol. I guess if they have the money they'll spend it to have the latest and greatest. It makes me wonder if the people who are buying these $10,000+ bikes are out there pushing them hard or if they're posers with really high end equipment.

    If I had $15,000, I'd buy a Epic/Camber, a StumpJumper FSR/Enduro, and a Demo 8 and have 3 really awesome bikes for 3 different types of riding.

  20. #20
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    2014 Epic

    The irony (not lost on me) is that by the time many people are able to actually afford to buy this high end cycling equipment (S-Works, SRAM XX1, Enve XC rims etc) they have also accumulated all the baggage that goes with middle age (a job with long hours, a house and garden that needs maintaining, a demanding wife, kids who need looking after, maybe health issues etc). All things which eat into their available riding time, as they tend to take priority.

    The bikes are purchased initially with good intentions but don't get used as much as intended, due to life getting in the way.

    I'd say that the bike industry is happy regardless, so long as the fashionable rise in the popularity of cycling keeps new customers coming in who are able to afford to buy these expensive bikes and accessories..

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/feat...-new-golf.html

    .

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    I guess the alternative would be to be a bike shop owner or employee or a racer. That way you're getting a serious discount on the bike.

    In reality though, for most of us, these super high end bikes are more of a preview or showcasing of what we can expect to see on our more reasonably priced bikes in 2-3 years.

    People who can afford to buy an S-Works bike are kind of the investors of new technology. They spend a lot of money so that a few years down the road, the rest of us can enjoy the same technology.

  22. #22
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    I consider myself lucky to have participate in the time in MTB'ing where there was the greatest increase in tech/$ ever. When I first started riding back in '92 I had a bike with rim brakes, 8 speeds, 50mm of elastomer shock and a hard tail. It would shake your fillings out to go fast.

    Now I have an S-Works Epic which is simply awesome. I bought it because it offered "value for money" in that I could not put the bike together myself for less than it cost me, and get a warranty.

    Now if I had owned that bike back in '98 when I was a seriously fit and fast athlete. Wow. But that is what this generation of rider has available with the kit. For me, this bike allows me to putter along at the back end of the field ;-)

    Back to the point $5K for electronic shifting? Stupid money for a little or no benefit....

  23. #23
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    There are a few potential advantages to electronic shifting for a mountain bike.

    On a full suspension bike electronic gears would eliminate the gear cable, which should give better more reliable shifting for longer. That would be especially useful on frames which use split cable housing, or have a convoluted cable routing with tight bends. Split gear cable housings with multiple stops on the frame tend to fill with water and mud, the cables rust and they need servicing all the time. The Specialized Epic has a fully enclosed cable run for the rear derailleur but cables sticking and corroding can be a real problem on some bikes.

    Because the gear changers are buttons you're no longer constrained by where they're located on the handlebars. A good example of this is LAN's custom Di2 1x10 setup.

    nobody with Di2 ?



    He took a set of the Shimano Di2 sprint buttons and put one shift button in each grip. The small black button in the picture above is a Di2 sprint button, so that you shift down through the gears with the right hand and up through the gears with the left hand, never needing to relax your grip on the handlebars. I really like the idea of that.

    Used with a front derailleur one of the strengths of the electronic shifting is supposed to be accurate and reliable front chainring shifts, even under heavy pedalling load and covered in mud.

    The downsides that I can see are the increased potential for electrical issues when used in rain and mud (Di2 electronic shifting is successfully used in cyclocross races so it may not be an issue), the need to remember to charge the battery every few months (there is a get you home mode and warnings apparently if the battery does go flat whilst riding) and the greater likelihood of a stick or rock breaking the fragile rear derailleur offroad. It's bad enough knowing that you've destroyed a $260 USD SRAM X0 rear derailleur. The prospect of an unfortunate stick totalling your $760 USD Di2 electronic rear derailleur is heart breaking.
    Last edited by WR304; 05-07-2013 at 04:00 PM.

  24. #24
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    Only ride what you can afford to replace.

  25. #25
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    2014 Epic

    If I could guess what is coming is a change of suspension and a change in geometry with shorter stays and a long top tube with shorter stems

    Erik

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