2013 S-Works Epic SRAM

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  • 12-25-2012
    WR304
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PanuV
    But that's very interesting question what is the best gearing for XCO or XCM races? 34, 36? ...Of course depending on venue... That Carbon-Ti X-Monoring what @MarcoL is running is a very fascinating option - with 35 teeth!

    The standard SRAM XX1 chainrings only come in even numbered chainring sizes because alternate teeth are shaped to mesh with the 11speed SRAM XX1 chain. Along with taller chainring teeth this is designed to keep the chain on the front chainring without using a chain guide when riding over bumpy ground.





    The Carbon-Ti rings appear to be standard teeth so you might find that the chain will come off the front chainring more frequently with a non Sram XX1 chainring. A chain guide is more likely to be required with the Carbon-Ti rings which might cancel out any weight savings from them.:)

    SRAM XX1: Component Development And Details - BikeRadar


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MarcoL View Post
    injured?

    When I crashed in August it turns out that I badly fractured my left femur (in the same place as several years previously also). To try and make it bond I had an operation to have an external fixator put on 20 December 2012. With luck the bone will heal but it's looking like it could be at least another 6 months off the bike before it's fixed.:(

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/247d4yfilg...3-12-2012.jpeg

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  • 12-25-2012
    MarcoL
    2 Attachment(s)
    WR304,

    Sorry to know you are injured, get well soon,
    regarding the Chainrings, I know that the carbon ti does not have the same configuration as the sram, but, they are much higher than the xx they replace, I am not very sure, but I think the extremely high tension on the RD spring keeps the chain in place.. not very sure, I have to field test.- that is the real thing, and I am not very sure...

    Unfortunately I do not have a XX chainring in here to take a pic and compare...
    will take more pics with the chain installed


    Attachment 747991
    Attachment 747992
  • 12-25-2012
    MarcoL
    3 Attachment(s)
    it seems they are high, but not very sure if this is enough, have to field test, maybe tomorrow
    :)

    Attachment 748007Attachment 748008Attachment 748009
  • 12-26-2012
    WR304
    From the Bikeradar article there's a list of manufacturers who currently offer Sram XX1 compatible freehubs here:

    SRAM XD Driver Body

    Probably the lightest hub option would be a Tune Kong XX1 rear hub which is supposed to be available in January 2013.:)

    Tune XX1 hubs | Enduro Mountainbike Magazine

    Something like these Duke 29er carbon clincher wheels (claimed weight 1175g in 28 hole) would be lighter than the stock Roval wheels. That's with 300g carbon clincher rims. You could get down to 255g per rim but that would mean AX Lightness tubular rims instead of clinchers.

    DUKE Lucky Jack 299/TUNE King Kong www.jpracingbike1.com

    I think you'll just have to try the chainring and see what happens. You need to balance weight saving and reliability though. When a chain derails (especially on a race bike) it's very frustrating, particularly if it jams at the same time. The Sram XX1 chainring is supposed to keep the chain on better than a standard chainring but I've seen it mentioned that some riders still prefer a chain guide on top for added security.

    "SRAM’s engineers used video capture to analyze how chains derailed from chainrings. They found one of the most common causes was side-to-side movement, which lead to the chain coming off the top off the chainring as if by shifting. The X-Sync tooth profile reduces side-to-side movement by “snugging up” the interface between the chainring and the chain’s outer plates.

    The tooth profile of an XX1 chainring is also taller and wider than that of a chainring designed with shifting in mind. XX1 chainrings will be available in 28, 30, 32, 34, 36 and 38-tooth options. SRAM claims that with a properly-sized chain a rider should be able to go one size up or down from the chainring they are running without need to replace the chain."
    Bikeradar.com

    SRAM XX1: Component Development And Details - BikeRadar

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  • 12-26-2012
    madhead
    Anybody else think that these duke lucky jack rims must be kind of fragile? and wobbly ?:)
    The claimed lucky jack 299 weight is 299grams, this is 86 grams lighter than enve clincher xc, somethign around 25% lighter, crazy and scary at the same time as enve is already very very light
  • 12-27-2012
    WR304
    Duke isn't a company that I'm familiar with (do they make their own carbon parts or is it someone else's rim rebadged? ). I'd be interested to know.:)

    According to this link the rims are made by Duke in France, possibly in association with Corima. Corima are a well respected manufacturer of carbon fibre rims so that would give me more confidence that the rims are likely to be good quality, rather than generic knock offs. At €594 euros ($789 USD) per rim the pricing is on the premium side.

    Very light 700c/29r wheelset from Duke | RedBike

    DUKE Lucky Jack 299 Carbon www.jpracingbike1.com

    Apparently the Duke Lucky Jack 299 rims use high modulus carbon fibre and are supposed to weigh a maximum of 299g or less. In the link above the 29" carbon clincher rims weighed 290g each. Their wheels weighed 1132g with Extralite hubs (Extralite offer a 142x12mm rear hub but no Sram XX1 freehub option).

    There's a rider weight limit of under 75kg (165lb approx) for the Duke Lucky Jack 299 rims and there's sure to be a fairly low maximum tyre pressure inflation limit also. That rider weight limit suggests they're likely to be fairly fragile, more suited to special occasions than everyday use.

    When it comes to stiffness my guess would be that the 299g Duke rims would be acceptable. The carbon fibre material being a real game changer when compared to lightweight alloy MTB rims.

    At a claimed weight of 385g for an Enve 29 XC rim Enve aren't really pushing the boundaries with the weights of their MTB rims. They have more of an emphasis on durability instead. The Stans NoTubes ZTR Crest 29" alloy rim for example has a claimed weight of 380g, lighter than a Enve 29 XC carbon rim. Although it weighs about the same as a typical carbon rim (Enve, Roval and Light-Bicycle 29" rims are all similar in weight to the ZTR Crest 29" rim) the ZTR Crest 29" rim is nowhere near as stiff as an equivalent weight carbon fibre rim. Even if the superlight 299g Duke carbon rim dropped to ZTR Crest 29" stiffness levels that would be useable as a race day wheelset.:)
  • 12-27-2012
    madhead
    interesting, I did not know that there are so light alloy rims!! the enve rims are crazy durable, sometimes when I get a flat I still ride them down the hill, there is not even a scratch :) Are there lighter carbon wheels than enve? I only know ax-lightness but their rims are tubular and I would also question their durability...
  • 12-27-2012
    MarcoL
    what do you think about this?

    CarboCamber 29
  • 12-27-2012
    madhead
    interesting, are there any reviews? Also they do not say anything about rider weight limit and internal rim width
  • 12-27-2012
    MarcoL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by madhead View Post
    interesting, are there any reviews? Also they do not say anything about rider weight limit and internal rim width

    No I have not found any review....I would like those wheels with the hyper camber hub,
  • 12-27-2012
    MarcoL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by madhead View Post
    interesting, are there any reviews? Also they do not say anything about rider weight limit and internal rim width

    No I have not found any review....I would like those wheels with the hyper camber hub,
  • 12-27-2012
    rapsac
    According to a German forum, the Duke rims are made by WR Compositi, an Italian company which makes carbon bicycle parts.
    Have a look on the German mtb-news.de forum.
    The rims on the extralite wheelset look like the same rims (internal nipples and offset nipple holes).
  • 12-27-2012
    madhead
    I just read some threads in german mtb forums and in fact it seems that duke rims is the same as wr compositi rims and its the same as the extralite carbocamper rims, can someone else confirm?

    I would not trust them normally, but if company like extralite is selling them under their brand name it means they must be pretty good
  • 12-27-2012
    MarcoL
    1160 grams at 2044 euro, it seems that they do not offer the hyper camber hub option..
  • 12-28-2012
    WR304
    The WR Compositi website itself has these wheels listed - claimed weight 1160g €1800 euros.

    WR Compositi catalogo on-line

    Are there any ride reviews or experiences with the rims on the mtb-news.de forum? I don't speak German unfortunately.:(
  • 12-28-2012
    rapsac
    Apparently Nino (who posted a lot on this forum at the ww section) has used the rims and is happy with them. He (surprisingly... :-) also sells wheel sets with the rims on his website.
  • 12-29-2012
    madhead
    I spoke with extralite about carbocamber wheelset and they said the wheelset was tested with up to 90kg rider, but the r2-biek website says the rider weight limit is 75kg with gear, confused :)
  • 12-29-2012
    MarcoL
    According to r2 the wheel is done by the same factory ( is not the same rim ) and according to extralite they use different spokes, maybe that's why the weight limit.
  • 12-29-2012
    WR304
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MarcoL View Post
    According to r2 the wheel is done by the same factory ( is not the same rim ) and according to extralite they use different spokes, maybe that's why the weight limit.

    Looking at the r2-bike.de site they have a few claimed sub 300g 29" carbon clincher rims listed. Are the BOR, Duke and Extralite rims all from the same place? They have an asymmetric profile in common.

    Clincher (Faltreifen): BOR Felge 29" XCD 255 Carbonfelge ab 285g

    Talking about light rims, did you see the Rigida Ryde rim 29 "EDGE MC-1 320g listed there? That's a light alloy rim. The 2012 Roval Comtol 29 alloy rims that came with my Epic are close to 200g more per rim :eekster:

    Ryde Felge 29" EDGE MC-1 320g, 87,50 €

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  • 12-29-2012
    skiwi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Looking at the r2-bike.de site they have a few claimed sub 300g 29" carbon clincher rims listed. Are the BOR, Duke and Extralite rims all from the same place? They have an asymmetric profile in common.

    Clincher (Faltreifen): BOR Felge 29" XCD 255 Carbonfelge ab 285g

    Talking about light rims, did you see the Rigida Ryde rim 29 "EDGE MC-1 320g listed there? That's a light alloy rim. The 2012 Roval Comtol 29 alloy rims that came with my Epic are close to 200g more per rim :eekster:

    Ryde Felge 29" EDGE MC-1 320g, 87,50 €

    .

    Back on planet earth, I'm keen to try out the Crossmax 29 SLR. At 1620 with an alloy rim, that looks to be a good bet for an all-round wheel. I've got Mavic wheels on family bikes, but would happily own another set.
  • 12-29-2012
    MarcoL
    How much does the roval carbon weight ?
    I preffer a lightweight carbon rim than a lightweight aluminum rim at the same weight,
    It is not very easy to decide which one is best, since if you broke the wheel you will broke some bones

    Which one do you think is best? The one on /r2 or the extralite?

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
  • 12-29-2012
    ftajiri
    How much strong is carbon rim vs alloy?

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  • 12-29-2012
    skiwi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MarcoL View Post
    How much does the roval carbon weight ?
    I preffer a lightweight carbon rim than a lightweight aluminum rim at the same weight,
    It is not very easy to decide which one is best, since if you broke the wheel you will broke some bones

    Which one do you think is best? The one on /r2 or the extralite?

    My 2011 SL 29 wheels weight 1440gms. I am 93kgs and have over 3,500kms on them without any problems. Broke 2 spokes through chain drop and the rims lasted 2 weeks of riding before I got back to town. Other than that, the spokes do need regular tightening on the rear wheel, but I couldn't be happier with the wheels.
  • 12-29-2012
    skiwi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ftajiri View Post
    How much strong is carbon rim vs alloy?

    for quality alloy vs quality carbon, the carbon will be stronger in every dimension. As durable? Probably not.
  • 12-29-2012
    MarcoL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    My 2011 SL 29 wheels weight 1440gms. I am 93kgs and have over 3,500kms on them without any problems. Broke 2 spokes through chain drop and the rims lasted 2 weeks of riding before I got back to town. Other than that, the spokes do need regular tightening on the rear wheel, but I couldn't be happier with the wheels.

    Sorry, I was asking for the rim only, i also have the Rovals, good wheels!
  • 12-30-2012
    vogtlandstreicher
    367g
  • 12-30-2012
    WR304
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Extralite offer a 142x12mm rear hub but no Sram XX1 freehub option.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MarcoL
    I prefer a lightweight carbon rim than a lightweight aluminum rim at the same weight,
    It is not very easy to decide which one is best, since if you broke the wheel you will broke some bones

    Which one do you think is best? The one on /r2 or the extralite?


    Although it's not listed on their website wheelset page when you go to the website hub page Extralite do have a Sram XX1 freehub now.

    Extralite HyperRear



    Extralite are one of those companies that I always have mixed feelings about. Their parts are some of the lightest around but that weight saving comes at the price of longevity. Things like the threads that allen bolts screw into are pared down so you only have a few turns available. The threads in my (2009 vintage) Extralite stem were looking close to stripping, which is another reason why I replaced it. The Extralite brass coloured parts are light but that metal is very soft. Where it's used for any sort of threads or allen bolts you have to be careful.

    I bought an Extralite Ultrastar2 headset expander and that was terrible. It didn't clamp tightly enough in the RockShox steerer to be able to adjust the headset bearings, and then to finish it off the 8mm allen bolt rounded. I had to hammer it out of the steerer tube. At the same time I bought an Extralite cassette lockring. It didn't have enough thread length to even start tightening on a Sram cassette. Total waste of €48 euros that was.

    Saying that, my Extralite front hub was fine without any issues. The Extralite HyperRear hub has a cautionary note on its product page about the freehub mechanism:

    "It took more than a year of continuous testing to develop and fine tune the HyperRear full-alloy front-engagement freewheel mechanism.
    This new device is able to manage extremely high torque values, it offers 36 quick engagement positions for a precise feel and a minimal friction resistance.
    Oversized front engagement freewheel offers a much wider teeth engagement surface to spread the transmission torque on, handles over half-ton of chain pull.
    It is a racing assembly sensibly stronger and lighter than our conventional pawls systems, as counterpart coasting is more noisy.
    Mileage of freewheel parts is also lower than conventional pawls systems however wearable parts can be easily replaced."
    Extralite

    I'd be inclined to buy some spare freehub bodies at the same time as the Extralite wheels if you go that route. I only bought a front Extralite hub as I was using my Powertap hub for the rear wheel.

    When it comes to the rims themselves I don't know. With newish products you could either wait for more rider feedback to see how solid they are or buy the rims from somewhere that you know is reputable. A store who will definitely look after you if there are any warranty problems.:)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skiwi View Post
    Back on planet earth, I'm keen to try out the Crossmax 29 SLR. At 1620 with an alloy rim, that looks to be a good bet for an all-round wheel. I've got Mavic wheels on family bikes, but would happily own another set.

    Unless you're sponsored by Mavic or refuse to use carbon rims (both valid reasons) they don't seem to offer much. Their main selling point hopefully being rim durability I guess. The 2013 Mavic Crossmax 29 SLR wheels are £784.99 GBP ($1268 USD / €959 euros).

    Chain Reaction Cycles - 2013 Mavic Crossmax 29 SLR Wheelset

    That's not cheap for what's a relatively heavy 1620g wheelset with proprietary spokes and a 19mm inside rim width. Crossmax SLR wheels were highend in 2008 but they haven't kept pace with technological change since then. The increased availability of stiff, wide, affordable and (mostly) reliable carbon fibre rims in 2013 makes them a much harder sell. You could have a set of Roval Control carbon 29 wheels 1580g and a 22mm inside rim width for about the same price.:)

    Specialized Bicycle Components

    2013 Specialized Wheels & Tires – Aero & Disc Road, Budget Carbon 29er MTB & More! - Bike Rumor

    An example of what they're competing against for all round everyday training wheels if you're on a budget would be these light-bicycle.com all mountain wheels 1500g, 23mm inside rim width for £400 GBP ($646 USD / €488 euros) including shipping, which are available in a reinforced rim version. Used with a wide tyre a wider inside rim width gives a better tyre profile for improved grip and handling.

    all mountain 29er carbon mtb wheels clincher tubeless wheel ready - light-bicycle

    For race wheels the 1620g Crossmax SLR wheelset would be giving away 170g in weight to the stock 1450g Roval Control SL 29 wheelset on your S-Works Epic, and 460g to something like the 1160g Extralite CarboCamber wheels.
  • 01-25-2013
    Crankiness
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MarcoL View Post
    it seems they are high, but not very sure if this is enough, have to field test, maybe tomorrow
    :)

    Attachment 748007Attachment 748008Attachment 748009

    How did the test drive go with the x-monoring without the chain guide?

    Maybe you can post you're experiences in this thread: forums.mtbr.com/singlespeed/carbon-ti-spiderless-chainrings-833871.html
    (i'm not allowed to post direct links or PM:madman:)

    Thanks!
  • 01-28-2013
    MarcoL
    I Will, they worked ok, but as predicted by wr304, the chain guide is needed if you ride aggressively...I am waiting for a chain guide and also for spider from Mathias


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  • 01-30-2013
    Crankiness
    Thx for the replay. I'm in doubt to bay te monoring or a xx1 crank. With a added chain guide the cost and weight are about the same and makes the choice difficult. The monorings have a bigger appeal to me.
  • 02-03-2013
    MarcoL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crankiness View Post
    Thx for the replay. I'm in doubt to bay te monoring or a xx1 crank. With a added chain guide the cost and weight are about the same and makes the choice difficult. The monorings have a bigger appeal to me.

    Fortunately, there are options on the chain guide, there is one chain guide in Italy that is about 10 grams, and the other one in germany is 36 grams
    ShiftUp Kettenführung Direct Mount Carbon 36g, 97,50 €
    If i got the one in Italy, will be very low in weight; the other option is the spider from EP + sram chainbolts + sram chainring.
    will let ypu know which one works best!

    Saludos!
  • 02-03-2013
    CDEM
    Awesome
  • 02-27-2013
    MarcoL
    EP spider is 20.8 grams!!!!
  • 03-10-2013
    devilc
    Another data point on the weight for anybody who's interested. My XL SW Epic SRAM came at exactly 9.99 kg (21.97 lbs) completely stock (incl tubes) with no pedals.
  • 10-11-2013
    madhead
    I wanted to report that I am using the carbocamber wheelset for several months now, I used it during various races and trust me here races are very very tough on the equipment, the cross country usually means a lot of tough downhills on huge rocks, the rims are holding very well so far