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Thread: surly pugsley

  1. #1
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    surly pugsley

    so i think surly, i think singlespeed forum, but im not really sure if the pugsley is a single speed frame. anywho...

    i was checking this bike out on the surly site and its cooler than hell. 4" tires on a skinny steel frame like that makes me weak in the knees. any word on this bike? said something about coming out in july, i dont know which july but if it was last july, surely one of you anti-gear-o's would have picked this up by now.

    shed some light on a boy in the dark.

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    goo! i love this noise.

  3. #3
    Retrograde Customs
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    according to surly, the pugsley fork is spaced at 135mm. what hub are you running on that?
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  4. #4
    Sofa King We Todd Did
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    Their blog says that the framesets have come in. Probably a few days 'til they start showing up on QBP online catalogs.

    Good Lord, does that bike mess with your eyes.

  5. #5
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    Wink Upright.

    That there's the one you shoulda bought, Desi.

    Like a Weeble (tm).



    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Their blog says that the framesets have come in. Probably a few days 'til they start showing up on QBP online catalogs.

    Good Lord, does that bike mess with your eyes.

  6. #6
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    135mm f & r

    the front end takes a "rear" wheel as well. And you can mount a different sized freewheel or cog up front and change gearing by swapping wheels As long as the range isn't too drastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by messofzero


    goo! i love this noise.
    Why does it need a thudbuster?
    Tuff Schist

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat Foot
    Why does it need a thudbuster?
    whoever owns that bike must have a prostate like a rotten peach.

    god, i want one so bad. not the sensitive prostate, the bike.

  9. #9
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    i bet its a beast, but who cares. run mad low pressure and plow through anything. besides, it looks cool. and if ive learned anything over the past 5 years about biking, looks should ALWAYS come before performance

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by messofzero
    whoever owns that bike must have a prostate like a rotten peach.

    god, i want one so bad. not the sensitive prostate, the bike.
    LOL!! Ha, hopefully not as big as a peach or there may be other issues. Here til Thursday, try the veal, don't forget to tip your waitresses......

    Understand, thing is cool looking. Wonder if all the rides would feel like they were in slow motion. Something about those tires that screams sloth.
    Tuff Schist

  11. #11
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    Good job! Dh

    What a monster on the downhills though!

    I'll have to get me one, just 'cuz.....



    Quote Originally Posted by Meat Foot
    LOL!! Ha, hopefully not as big as a peach or there may be other issues. Here til Thursday, try the veal, don't forget to tip your waitresses......

    Understand, thing is cool looking. Wonder if all the rides would feel like they were in slow motion. Something about those tires that screams sloth.

  12. #12
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    Wild!
    a rigid bike with 130mm of travel! (including the thudbuster)

  13. #13
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Meat Foot
    Why does it need a thudbuster?
    Better question, "why does it need more than one gear?"
    Last edited by TheBUNKY; 07-13-2005 at 01:09 PM.

  14. #14
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    Why does it need car tires?
    I think Mikesee showed quite well in the last Alaska race that a 29" w/ those Exi's fairs excellently in snow...
    The thudbuster is an offense to the beauty of the bicycle!

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    True, true, true, why does it need gears if it is perfect for coming down, and it does not need a kickstand, the tires alone anchor it to the ground! It just stands up!
    Tuff Schist

  16. #16
    Sofa King We Todd Did
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    Now, I need to wrap my head around the Pugsley here. And other so-called 'adventure' bikes (another bloody category I got to sort out in my head!).

    Clearly there's a utilitarian mission at play here. You're supposed to use the monster truck tires to get over monster terrain, right? So if you saw someone riding this thing on one of your none-too-scary, no-frills singletrack, would you be obligated to slap him? Kinda like your average suburban muppet who drives his Hummer H2 down the street to buy a gallon or what not?

  17. #17
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrmattaz
    just 'cuz.....
    good enough reason in my book

  18. #18
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    I want one - one thing I was thinking is that when the trails are wet here locally and you can't ride them because you'll rut them up... I bet you can ride this and barely leave any trace...


    That's my hope and main mission to get one... more riding... even on not so narly trails...

    FF
    "If I'm leading, I'm bleeding."

  19. #19
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    I want one just to putz around town on. The thing should be immune to potholes and storm drain grates. Might ride it over Colnagos and Burley trailers, too! Go on tour with the Monster Trucks!

    If I can run Gazzi 3.0s at 10 psi I should be able to use 5-6 in the Endomorph 3.7!
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I want one just to putz around town on. The thing should be immune to potholes and storm drain grates. Might ride it over Colnagos and Burley trailers, too! Go on tour with the Monster Trucks!

    If I can run Gazzi 3.0s at 10 psi I should be able to use 5-6 in the Endomorph 3.7!
    Maybe it'll work like a run-flat system, 0 psi, wouldn't have to worry about finding 4" tubes that way

  21. #21
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    I think MikeC actually ran Bontrager XR tires in Alaska. We had like 5-6" of snow here this winter for a few days, I liked them tehre as well.

    The Pugleys seduces me by just existing. Worse than the worst Femme Fatale, well almost. Coolest bike to be built around 559 rims for sure. Snow is really rare here, but it would be lots of fun on the beach, riding the loosest dunes. we have some really nice dune trails, which in summer are unridable, well...without the Pugs.
    I think I would put a few gears on it, to make full use of the traction on steep sandy stuff. Maybe a 2:1 as largest gear, and 1:1 or a bit lower as tchnical climbing gear. 32t chainring and 17-21-26-34 cogs on a King singlespeed hub, for instance. Oooh momma...

    We really should praise Surly for having the balls to make a true dedicated snowbike in mass production, while only a couple dozen similar bikes exist today. It's even more daring than WTB making a 29" tire with only custom frames to fit them, as the also had to design the tread specifically for the tire, as well as the rims, AND the frames, all with a steep minumum order quantity.

    Here's to Surly

    PS. It seems the Pugs would fit a 29x3.0 tires as well, more or less that same diameter. I'd be all over that as well.

  22. #22
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    29/26

    What I'm thinking is 29er Exiwolfs in the summer and the fatties in the winter. The only thing that sucks about that is the freaky offset.

    But having two gears to use is a good idea, like Padre said. Climbing in the snow is a byznatch. And changing wheels with disc brakes is so easy.

    -M
    Mike Henderson, Dirty Hippy Mountain Biker and part owner of Jet Lites.

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    I'm picturing it with a Roloff internal hub with a 30t on the front...massive clearance for log crossings.

    Shane

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    Oh man, they actually did a 22/XL size as well, right on!!

    The 55mm BB drop is actually pretty decent already, a 30t will rock for ground clearance obviously, but with the Pugs, a 32t might do the trick for you anyway. Either can be had in steel from Surly, apparantly.
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

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    If you ran a good size cog on your front hub as well the bike would really take on sort of a "Road Warrior" vehicle vibe. It would look like it was designed for you to sneak up behind people and slash their back wheels with it. That would be awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by messofzero
    so i think surly, i think singlespeed forum, but im not really sure if the pugsley is a single speed frame. anywho...

    i was checking this bike out on the surly site and its cooler than hell. 4" tires on a skinny steel frame like that makes me weak in the knees. any word on this bike? said something about coming out in july, i dont know which july but if it was last july, surely one of you anti-gear-o's would have picked this up by now.

    shed some light on a boy in the dark.
    I've seen a couple of them at the LBS.



    The LBS in question being One one One, in mineapolis, and the bikes in question being protypes that Gene and crew were / are testing out.

    Apparently they are fun for urban assault too- for a while he had them skinned with Hookworms. I heard third handed that they did some demos for the police bike patrol crew, showing how well they could ride down (and up) flights of stairs with those mega-fat slicks.

    Considering that Surly is based in Minneasotta, it just makese SENSE for them to do a dedicated snow bike. I think winter-time durability is half the reason the singlespeed thing is so big here.

  27. #27
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    I am thinking two chainrings on the crank and running a chain to the front tire and a chain to the rear tire for <b>two wheel drive</b>...

    Would that work?

    Hmmmm...my head hurts just thinking of the possibilities...

    Must have one...

    LP

  28. #28
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lanpope
    ...running a chain to the front tire...
    Just don't turn!
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil
    Just don't turn!
    Oh yea...just realized that turning would be tough

    LP

  30. #30
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    You could make a dual-drivetrain, also to the front. Will keep the front from turning.
    There's riders that like to give up their freewheel action, and insist they like it better, so be different still and say you prefer to use powerwheelies and hops to point your bike in different directions.
    It will be fun to ride up a steep sandy dune, no-handed, belly-on-stem, and not losing traction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    You could make a dual-drivetrain, also to the front. Will keep the front from turning.
    There's riders that like to give up their freewheel action, and insist they like it better, so be different still and say you prefer to use powerwheelies and hops to point your bike in different directions.
    It will be fun to ride up a steep sandy dune, no-handed, belly-on-stem, and not losing traction.
    Maybe he could figure out some sort of hand-crank system, like wheelchair bikes have. Mount it on a specially built stem, and you'd have a trick ride.

    Hmm, thinking that through semi-seriously, it might have potential if you used a MOTOR instead of hand crank. Sort of against the point of buying an "adventure bike", but it would climb like a mofo, using dual wheel drive and 2 motors (one human, one mechanical)!

    Alternately, a similar setup could be a funky way to run a generator for lighting... which given the problems batteries have in winter, and the short hours of daylight, might not be a bad idea on a snow bike.

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    Ahah! How a bout a hub-hidden motor? Like a Rohloff hub, but the other way around?

    A system exists (or was at least patented) where cranking/rocking the handlebars actuates a drivetrain to the front wheel. Effective, as it would only work when you need it, on steep grinding climbs.

    Semi-OT : I rode alongside a 52 y/o Vespa motorized bike last week. Motor drives a tire directly, I think. It topped 22mph on flats, and it rocked. Not too noisy, but could be better obviously. Before I never liked mopeds. Would be interesting to see how silent and fuel-efficient a help-motor could be.

  33. #33
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    I think you have to commute by bike for a winter or two in Minnesota understand the Pug.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg
    I think you have to commute by bike for a winter or two in Minnesota understand the Pug.
    Have done for 5 winters. Fact is, our roads get cleaned really fast, and ice is a bigger danger to a comuter than snow, which is rarely more than a couple inches on roads before the plows hit them. Studded tires are the solution for ice, not high volume, and winter commuting can be pretty fun with a good set of studs. I ride a SS with a Nokian wcx 300 in front and a 296 in back, as studs are a must if you hit any plowed dirt roads (very slick), but many folks get buy with normal mtb tires, or even on 700c bikes with road tires or Nokian Haka's or some other studded 700c chubby.

    Ultra-wide tires DO win most of the off-road winter trail races, which I'd bet is one of the target markets for the Pugsley. There aren't any 3+ inch studded tires I know of, but the big rims (like the old Sno-Cat) do enough, and you don't really need studs if conditions are snowy, not icey.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungazi
    Have done for 5 winters. Fact is, our roads get cleaned really fast, and ice is a bigger danger to a comuter than snow, which is rarely more than a couple inches on roads before the plows hit them. Studded tires are the solution for ice, not high volume, and winter commuting can be pretty fun with a good set of studs.
    Having grown up in Minneapol-ice I can confirm this. I never tried to commute by bike, although my old 10 speed did see a few ice miles. The Pugsley would not be an efficient commuter. A 'crosser or 29"er with studs would be much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    Why does it need car tires?
    I think Mikesee showed quite well in the last Alaska race that a 29" w/ those Exi's fairs excellently in snow...
    Horses for courses. There are many different types of snow conditions. Mikesee was racing on packed snowmobile trails. If he'd strayed out from the 'biler tracks onto the snowpack he probably wouldn't have gone anywhere fast.

    At least in Minnesota, there are a LOT of times and places where you could ride out into the woods and explore without any help from snowmobiles, if you had a bike like the Pugsley.

    Contrast that with the Cascades of Oregon (close to where I now live) where the snow is deeper and more frequent, not getting well-consolidated until late spring ... meaning NO bike (regardless of tire size) would be very rideable through most of the winter. Central Oregon might be a better place to ride a Pugsley, though.
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    I can see the studs being better down in "balmy" MSP where it gets warm enough to melt and refreeze. I commuted to class all of my years at UND in Grand Forks, 70mi from teh border eh, on a studded fixie MTB. And while there was plenty of ice, the packed snow that never melted from Nov-Mar that covered many side walks and areas that didn't get plowed constantly slowed me more than the ice. The worst was where people or the city didn't plow a side walk, which people walked on, and which then hardened into a big strip of lumpy ice/snow with 5in deep boot sized holes in it. A Gazzy on a Large Marge would have not even notice that stuff. And that is the same reason riding on snow mobile trails sucks, the frozen rumble strips left from the track are begging for a 4.0 MTB tire. Throw in drifts and the walls of snow left by the plows and the cross bike with studs wasn't cutting it(well it was cutting it, and you'd slice into that stuff and stop dead in your tracks). A good friend at the shop in good old GF has a pug on order and I'm anxiously awaiting the report. He plans to use it as a bar bike(of course) and to follow the XC ski/snowmobile trails in the winter, thats a lot of trails in the winter.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  37. #37
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    Would a Rolhoff work?

    I'm just wondering what the rear dropout spacing on the Pugsly is. If it's like other snow bikes then it'll be 145mm, the tandem standard. Now, if that's the case then a Rohloff is out of the question. Having spoken to Rohloff in the past they'll only produce hubs with an axle long enough to fit 135mm spaced dropouts.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by messofzero
    so i think surly, i think singlespeed forum, but im not really sure if the pugsley is a single speed frame. anywho...

    i was checking this bike out on the surly site and its cooler than hell. 4" tires on a skinny steel frame like that makes me weak in the knees. any word on this bike? said something about coming out in july, i dont know which july but if it was last july, surely one of you anti-gear-o's would have picked this up by now.

    shed some light on a boy in the dark.
    I can't wait for someone on this board to get one, to report if it's really rideable (more than to style around downtown that is). I still can't believe that keeping 10 pounds of tire moving offroad would be anything other than a chore. A two mile-per-hour chore.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SortedCycles
    I'm just wondering what the rear dropout spacing on the Pugsly is. If it's like other snow bikes then it'll be 145mm, the tandem standard. Now, if that's the case then a Rohloff is out of the question. Having spoken to Rohloff in the past they'll only produce hubs with an axle long enough to fit 135mm spaced dropouts.
    It's 135mm front and rear. Read the Surly Blog, it goes into detail on what you'll need for this bike. The idea of using 135mm front rather than build something even more exotic, is to always have a spare rear wheel with you, as those tend to be more prone to fail anyway. A rear wheel with busted freewheels will still make a great front. You need two rear brakes also. Most LBS's must be well-stocked with rear brakes, as front tend to be more popular.

    I can't get over how brave Surly is to commit to such a bike. Their first bach may already outnumber all other snowbikes ever built, bring a unique niche of the sport within reach for everyone. And then all the offset designing, just impressive.

    Anyone into riding, with a stable of road, cross and mtbikes, will need to add one of these. Especially if you live anywhere near a beach, desert or white winter. For all others it's a great trianing tool. The only thing Pugs misses for me, is a 700c x 3.0 tire :-)
    Did anyone notice the claimed frame and fork weights are actually a bit lower than the Karate Monkey's?
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    I still can't believe that keeping 10 pounds of tire moving offroad would be anything other than a chore. A two mile-per-hour chore.
    The thing about rotating mass is that its not only hard to GET rolling, its hard to STOP it from rolling. If you stay at a stable speed (not using the brakes) then the momentum actually HELPS you over obstacles, and is no worse going up hill than the same weight on the frame would be. You don't acclerate as quickly (even going down hill) but maintaining a steady pace is no more work.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SortedCycles
    I'm just wondering what the rear dropout spacing on the Pugsly is. If it's like other snow bikes then it'll be 145mm, the tandem standard. Now, if that's the case then a Rohloff is out of the question. Having spoken to Rohloff in the past they'll only produce hubs with an axle long enough to fit 135mm spaced dropouts.
    135mm.

    http://www.surlybikes.com/pugsley.html

    SPECS | Pugsley Frameset
    Tubing:


    100% cro-moly steel. Main triangle is double-butted. TIG-welded
    Rear Dropouts:


    Surly horizontal dropouts with derailleur hanger. 135mm-spaced. Offset 17.5mm
    Braze compatibility:


    Most rear international standard disc brakes or cantilever-type rim brakes (when using Large Marge)
    Braze-ons:


    Cantilever bosses with removable pivots, dual water bottle mounts, top tube cable housing guides for use with continuous housing, fender and rack eyelets
    Seatpost diameter:


    27.2mm
    Seatpost clamp diameter:


    30.0mm, Surly Constrictor™ included
    Headset:


    1-1/8" threadless
    Front derailleur:


    E-type
    Bottom bracket shell:


    100mm wide, 1.37 x 24t
    Chainring clearance:


    Compact triple: 22-32-44t
    Fork:


    Suspension-corrected... 447mm axle to crown, tapered straight blade, 4130 cro-moly. International standard rear disc mount and removable cantilever pivots spaced 120mm apart. 135mm-spaced dropouts, 17.5mm offset

    Sizes available:


    16", 18", 20" and 22" (measured from the center of the bb to the top of the top tube)
    Color:


    Barney Blue/Purple Pearl Sizzurple
    Weight:


    18" medium- 5.66 lb (2.56 kg)
    Fork - uncut = 2.52 lb (1.14 kg) uncut

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungazi
    The thing about rotating mass is that its not only hard to GET rolling, its hard to STOP it from rolling. If you stay at a stable speed (not using the brakes) then the momentum actually HELPS you over obstacles, and is no worse going up hill than the same weight on the frame would be. You don't acclerate as quickly (even going down hill) but maintaining a steady pace is no more work.
    Indeed. And the good thing for singlespeeders about having more energy stored in the wheels : longer coasts between spins to recover, and you make it further up steep climbs you can build up some speed for.
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  43. #43
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    What about the increase in friction. HA! I bet you never thought of THAT!

    All that momentum is going to get eaten up in tire flex and rolling resistance. Forget it. It's a pig. There's no way around it.

    Back to my idea which no one seemed to recognise as the genius it was: Large marge and 4 inchers in the winter. 29ers and exis in the summer.

    -M
    Mike Henderson, Dirty Hippy Mountain Biker and part owner of Jet Lites.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungazi
    The thing about rotating mass is that its not only hard to GET rolling, its hard to STOP it from rolling. If you stay at a stable speed (not using the brakes) then the momentum actually HELPS you over obstacles, and is no worse going up hill than the same weight on the frame would be. You don't acclerate as quickly (even going down hill) but maintaining a steady pace is no more work.
    Good in frictionless incline plane theory but I'm not convinced it translates, otherwise everyone would already be lusting after the heaviest wheels you could buy. On a climb with say, a step-up I'm seeing a complete bog-down. I tried running fatass DH tires before and the increased mass didn't help me over any obstacles. It just made it harder to get up over obstacles.

    On bigger obstacles you don't just plow into them (because you'd just bounce backwards). You have to get the front wheel up by pulling a wheelie. In other words, you use your strength to lift the weight completely off the ground, which means rotating mass doesn't help you out at all to roll up onto something. The increased mass itself makes it harder to pop a wheelie up onto rocks and logs, etc. A fat tread like that also has so much more friction you have to fight against. With our puny motors I don't think you could get that bike up to acceptable speed.

    Anyway, I hope someone buys one and can let us know what their experience is. I think this bike is more for image than anything else. A fun bar-bike maybe, but I don't see it doing any serious trailwork. Sheeit, throw a Surly flask on there while you're at it to say, "Look at me; I party."

    I like SpinWheelz' analogy that the Pugsley is the Hummer H2 of the mtb world. A vehicle so far beyond the norm that mostly will be for cruising around town and being seen. A few may actually see light trailwork, and fewer yet will see any real serious trailwork, but most will be for style points. A pure machismo item, down to the bulldog-like name.
    Last edited by Nat; 07-20-2005 at 03:24 PM.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy
    Central Oregon might be a better place to ride a Pugsley, though.
    It would be overkill and unnecessary here too. We rode all winter long on plain old mtb tires.

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    Pugsley on order

    I've got one on order and can't wait. I was thinking of building a Karate Monkey as a second bike (my 1st is a Fisher 293) but when I saw the Pugsley I knew I had to have one. I've also got a set of regular 29er wheels to use on it as well. I plan on using a few gears on it to start with just to experiment.

    I had a snowmobile, which I sold last year, and I've been on a lot of snowmobile trails that would be fun to bike on. I'm also hoping it will be good for those low snow winters when there isn't enough for xc skiing but too much for a regular bike. I guess I've been obsessed with snow riding for a while, to the point where I've also been thinking about building a tracked bike for deep snow someday. Until then the Pugsley should do nicely.

    Btw, If you read the Surly site the 135mm spacing in the front is simply to fit the 3.7" tires, otherwise you'd have to squeeze the tire through the fork blades. Its just convenient that you automatically get a spare wheel with it.

    The Surly blog is what pushed me over the edge wrt to bike on the snow. Read it here:
    http://www.surlybikes.com/2005_03_01...ogarchive.html
    Last edited by finnlander; 07-20-2005 at 04:08 PM.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander
    I've got one on order and can't wait. [/url]
    Cool. Please post a ride report after you get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    It would be overkill and unnecessary here too. We rode all winter long on plain old mtb tires.
    You're right, it probably would be overkill ... I imagine going off-trail is impossible in Central OR's soft snow most of the time, and like you I've done just fine on trails (including sled tracks) with narrower tires. I don't expect to hear about a lot of Oregonians ordering Pugsleys.

    But I still think the Pugsley would open up fantastic possibilities in places like the upper Midwest where you have a snowpack for several months of the year that is frequently firm. Unlike in Oregon the quantity of snow isn't that great, so you can often go quite a few days between snowstorms, giving the snowpack lots of opportunity to consolidate, and there's plenty of sunshine to help that process out. If I still lived there, I would be first in line for a Pug, because it would open up vast areas that are otherwise inaccessible by bike.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    I can't get over how brave Surly is to commit to such a bike.
    The investment in the frame is the least of it. There's a bit of tooling cost in there, and a bunch of head scratching, but what will have hurt is the tyre tooling ($$$$$!) and the rim profile (though they can still make Marges in 26in to do some volume on that.

    Hats off to the chaps. Sometimes it's nice to have glamour projects to work with, and I'm sure they'll do really well with it. It makes such sense for them to do it. Nice one.

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    It's a misconception that big tire HAVE to be slow. All else being equal, wider tires have been proven to actually roll FASTER. All else : casing and rubber thickness, thread depth, etc.
    The Endomorph 3.7, in it's lightest form, is a spectacular 1260g. Compare that to a 3.0" DH tire that weighs 1600g or more, and you'd conclude the casing and rubber are more minimalist. When you see the Endomorph pics, you'll appreciate that better.
    Ride reports of the many Pugsley proto's say that the bike is not too slow to do normal riding on. Especially when you aren't in monster-traction 5 or 10psi mode. At 25psi, on firm soil, the contact patch is much like that of a normally dimensioned tire.
    Obviously it's not an AC race bike, but more a go-anywhere adventure bike. Like an environmentally conscious Jeep and trail-friendly bike that makes you good look in the mirrow after a shower.

    I can't wait to see build pics and ride reports from all over the world, on all the different trails.

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