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Thread: Spokes?

  1. #1
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    Spokes?

    I just got new Mavic 717 disc rims for Xmas. I have a new Hope front disc hub and a Spot rear SS hub. Are the DT Swiss Aerolite or the Revolutions better? 1.8 or 2.0 butted? Sheldon Brown recommends straight spokes for a newby wheelbuilder...is this accurate? I am a newby but want to learn the art. Any suggestions? Thanx!
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  2. #2
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    Thin spokes can be very difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by xjohnnyx
    I just got new Mavic 717 disc rims for Xmas. I have a new Hope front disc hub and a Spot rear SS hub. Are the DT Swiss Aerolite or the Revolutions better? 1.8 or 2.0 butted? Sheldon Brown recommends straight spokes for a newby wheelbuilder...is this accurate? I am a newby but want to learn the art. Any suggestions? Thanx!
    I've seen people have disasterous results trying to build with thin spokes as they require bit more skill to get right. The main problem is spoke wind-up. What happens is the nipple and spoke trurn together without the builder knowing and this artitificially shortens the spoke. Initially this has the desired effect on the wheel, but when it is de-tensioned the spokes unwind and the wheel is off again. I'd stick with 14/15(2.0/1.8) butted ( straight gauge spokes are worthless) and brass nipples for your fist build and using Mavic rims is a good idea as they are generally the truest rims from the factory. If yor dead set on using thin spokes I can give you some tips.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    I( straight gauge spokes are worthless)
    Thats a BIG call. Justify?

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    well...

    Quote Originally Posted by spuddy
    Thats a BIG call. Justify?
    Butted spokes do more than actually reduce weight. By having a thinner section in the middle the spoke flexes there which is good. Straight gauge spokes don't flex in the middle like butted spokes therefore the J-bend in the hub hammers back and forth work hardening the spoke end and potentially damaging the hub. While this does happen to butted spoke it's to a much less degree. So in response:

    Straight gauge spokes are heavier and don't build as strong a wheel = worthless (in my book).

    Obviously were talking spokes of similar dimensions, i.e. 14 ga compared to 14/15 ga

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Butted spokes do more than actually reduce weight. By having a thinner section in the middle the spoke flexes there which is good. Straight gauge spokes don't flex in the middle like butted spokes therefore the J-bend in the hub hammers back and forth work hardening the spoke end and potentially damaging the hub. While this does happen to butted spoke it's to a much less degree. So in response:

    Straight gauge spokes are heavier and don't build as strong a wheel = worthless (in my book).

    Obviously were talking spokes of similar dimensions, i.e. 14 ga compared to 14/15 ga
    Butted spokes (more elastic not more flex) make a more durable wheel. Not necessarily a stronger wheel. I have built many good wheels with straight 15g spokes (lighter and cheaper than 14/15 DB).
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    Recommendations from the Guru?

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Butted spokes (more elastic not more flex) make a more durable wheel. Not necessarily a stronger wheel. I have built many good wheels with straight 15g spokes (lighter and cheaper than 14/15 DB).
    Hey Shiggy...I am going to build my first set of wheels. I just ordered 'The Art of Wheelbuilding' by Schraner. Any other suggestions or hints on wheelbuilding? Is a tension guage necessary or do you go by feel or tune as in Sheldon Brown's online article? Are straight spokes easier to work with but lack the elasticity? Is elasticity important? Sorry for all the questions but I am a neophyte in the ART! Thanks for the help.
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    Keep your first build simple. 14/15 DB or straight 15g spokes, brass nipples, 3 cross. If you really want a light wheelset find a wheelbuilder than will teach you. Have them build the light wheels and you build an inexpensive backup set with heavier parts.

    I would stay away from the Revolutions on the rear for SSing. The high elasticity of the thin spokes makes for a flexy wheel. They may be OK for the front. My preference are Sapim CX-Rays (The DT Aerolite copied them).
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  8. #8
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    Semantics

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Butted spokes (more elastic not more flex) make a more durable wheel. Not necessarily a stronger wheel. I have built many good wheels with straight 15g spokes (lighter and cheaper than 14/15 DB).
    From the dictionary:

    1. Strong: Capable of withstanding force or wear; solid, tough, or firm: a strong building; a strong fabric.

    2. Durable: Capable of withstanding wear and tear or decay: a durable fabric.

    3. Elastic: Easily resuming original shape after being stretched or expanded; flexible. See Synonyms at flexible.

    I can debate you on the modulous of the materials used but suffice it to say that from a purely engineering standpoint butted is ALWAYS a better option.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    From the dictionary:

    1. Strong: Capable of withstanding force or wear; solid, tough, or firm: a strong building; a strong fabric.

    2. Durable: Capable of withstanding wear and tear or decay: a durable fabric.

    3. Elastic: Easily resuming original shape after being stretched or expanded; flexible. See Synonyms at flexible.

    I can debate you on the modulous of the materials used but suffice it to say that from a purely engineering standpoint butted is ALWAYS a better option.
    Also from the dictionary:
    Flexible: Capable of being bent.

    Bending and stretching are not the same thing in practice.

    I agree that technically butted spokes are a better choice they are not the only choice to build a strong, light wheel.
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  10. #10
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    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Also from the dictionary:
    Flexible: Capable of being bent.

    Bending and stretching are not the same thing in practice.

    I agree that technically butted spokes are a better choice they are not the only choice to build a strong, light wheel.
    If I was made of money Sapim c-xrays would be on every wheelset I own. Additionally, did you ever get caught out by the Bulls*it different length J-bend disaster by DT a couple of years ago? Pissed me off so much I switched to Sapim's and Wheelsmiths as first choices from then on.

  11. #11
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    I used Revolutions on my first set of SS wheels with Paul hubs and Mavic rims --- broke quite a few spokes on freewheel side of rear wheel. Have been using 14/15 DB on latest set. No issues. I prefer aluminum nips. Important to always make sure you clean and lube both threads and nipples - will prevent spoke wrap and allow you to get spokes tighter - resulting in tighter wheel. I still like the Revo's on the front wheel. I pretty much stick with 3 cross pattern and 32 spoke count. Just built up a new set of singlespeed CK's for the Spot MTB and a pair of Phil's for the Spot SS 'crosser.

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    Broken spokes on a symmetrical hub?

    Quote Originally Posted by endure26
    I used Revolutions on my first set of SS wheels with Paul hubs and Mavic rims --- broke quite a few spokes on freewheel side of rear wheel. Have been using 14/15 DB on latest set. No issues. I prefer aluminum nips. Important to always make sure you clean and lube both threads and nipples - will prevent spoke wrap and allow you to get spokes tighter - resulting in tighter wheel. I still like the Revo's on the front wheel. I pretty much stick with 3 cross pattern and 32 spoke count. Just built up a new set of singlespeed CK's for the Spot MTB and a pair of Phil's for the Spot SS 'crosser.
    It's pretty common to see drive side spokes break on cassette hubs, but on an equal tension SS wheel it should not make a difference. Also, regardless of lube you gonna get spoke windup on really thin spokes, just have to compensate when tensioning. How much do you weigh?

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    Usually its the non-drive side spoke that breaks at the elbow - a result of the lower tension letting the elbow cycle though a larger strain. Unless you nick the driveside spokes with the chain.

    The difference between wheel strength with strait gage and butted spokes is small, so I would not call one worthless. In my experience, the biggest difference with wheel strength is the quality of the wheel build. A well tensioned, properly built strait gage spoked wheel will out live most mass produced butted spoked wheels.

    Cheers,

    Tom

  14. #14
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    My experience says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    Usually its the non-drive side spoke that breaks at the elbow - a result of the lower tension letting the elbow cycle though a larger strain. Unless you nick the driveside spokes with the chain.

    The difference between wheel strength with strait gage and butted spokes is small, so I would not call one worthless.
    I disagree.
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    what does it matter????? Build your wheel any way you want and have fun with it. If it breaks, study why, then build a new wheel. The more wheels you build the better the wheels will get and the less you will have to build. Because after enough wheels you get tired of building them.

    If you still care I say build the front wheel with Revolution spokes 28 holes. Cross 3 on the disc side and radial on the non disc side. That wheel should last you a good while.

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    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by williamf777
    what does it matter????? Build your wheel any way you want and have fun with it. If it breaks, study why, then build a new wheel. The more wheels you build the better the wheels will get and the less you will have to build. Because after enough wheels you get tired of building them.

    If you still care I say build the front wheel with Revolution spokes 28 holes. Cross 3 on the disc side and radial on the non disc side. That wheel should last you a good while.
    Not sure what your saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjohnnyx
    Hey Shiggy...I am going to build my first set of wheels. I just ordered 'The Art of Wheelbuilding' by Schraner. Any other suggestions or hints on wheelbuilding? Is a tension guage necessary or do you go by feel or tune as in Sheldon Brown's online article? Are straight spokes easier to work with but lack the elasticity? Is elasticity important? Sorry for all the questions but I am a neophyte in the ART! Thanks for the help.
    OO first wheel build, it's going to be fun/annoying/time consuming. A few tips.

    1) rounding spokes is a big big big pain in the butt. Buy the Delta Spokey tool from www.oddsandendos.com This wrench will help you later on in the tensioning part since it covers 4 sides of the nipple.

    2) when truing and stuff make sure you have consistent truing rounds. For instance fix two left, fix two right side, fix two left, fix two right, fix roundness. Keep at a good pattern until it's looking good.

    3) after a while you'll understand how much to turn and not to turn the spokes. Something that can help gauge this later on in the final truing stages is look at the nipple head. Use the little line on the nipple head and a finger nail to more accurately twist 1/8 turns or 1/16 turns. When i say finger nail i use it to eye it and i place it at a + to the nipple head. get what im saying ? Well it helps.

    4) at the end you'll need to turn a little then turn back to get rid of wiind up junk

    5) use lots of antiseize

  18. #18
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    Just wondering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Additionally, did you ever get caught out by the Bulls*it different length J-bend disaster by DT a couple of years ago?
    Exactly what was the disaster?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnpedaler.com
    Exactly what was the disaster?
    A few years back DT lengthened the J-bend on their spokes under pressure from large machine wheel builders because the machines were having trouble lacing the spokes into the thicker flanges of Shimano hubs. They did this without informing consumers. Soon builders begain noticing the difference and started calling DT to which DT admitted to this and said that on hubs other than Shimano you need to run washers under the heads. This pissed off a lot of builders because they now have spoke inventory were some need washers and some don't, bad. Finally DT compromised and shortened the J-bend back half the distance so now you have the potential to have three seemingly identical spokes with three different bend lengths. Do a search on the internet, there was some pretty pissed off builders writing some stuff about this.
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  20. #20
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    Oh yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    A few years back DT lengthened the J-bend on their spokes under pressure from large machine wheel builders because the machines were having trouble lacing the spokes into the thicker flanges of Shimano hubs. They did this without informing consumers. Soon builders begain noticing the difference and started calling DT to which DT admitted to this and said that on hubs other than Shimano you need to run washers under the heads. This pissed off a lot of builders because they now have spoke inventory were some need washers and some don't, bad. Finally DT compromised and shortened the J-bend back half the distance so now you have the potential to have three seemingly identical spokes with three different bend lengths. Do a search on the internet, there was some pretty pissed off builders writing some stuff about this.
    Now I remember, duh. Thanks.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamf777
    ...If you still care I say build the front wheel with Revolution spokes 28 holes. Cross 3 on the disc side and radial on the non disc side. That wheel should last you a good while.
    Baaaaaaaad choice for a first time wheel builder. Low spoke count, thin spokes and mixed lacing add too many complications for a new builder. The resulting wheel might last just a few rides. A very expensive lesson.

    Personally, if I was going to build a 28 spoke front disc wheel I would use CX-Ray spokes, 2 cross left and 3 cross right on an American Classic hub, Radial puts too much braking load on too few spokes.
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  22. #22
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    Further Reading

    Hi,

    I just recently started building wheels. My first wheel I built up by looking at a current wheel and lacing it up the same way. 517 hoop, xtr hub (rear), DT comp spokes (my LBS suggested these based on my then weight of 185lbs and aggressive riding style, and shallow pockets). I used the rear of my bike as a truing stand, with v-brake calipers as my guide, tensioning the cable the truer the wheel got. Took a long time, lots of frustration, but when I took it by the LBS the next day to have it looked over, not wanting to ride a potentially bad wheel, I got nothing but compliments. I used Lennard Zinn's "The Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance" as my reference. Since then, I bought the TS-2 truing stand, more literature, blah blah blah. Take a loot at this link also: http://www.crazyrides.com/en/mastermechanic/index.asp, it has excellent content about wheel building. Finally, wheel building is an art, and the only way you will get good at it is if you do it again and again. My second wheel took less than half of the time to build than my first, and felt much better, even though the components used where similar (xt hub, rather than xtr). Anyway, good luck and don't forget to prep the spoke threads and the nipple eyelets!

    _MK

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