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  1. #1
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    Phil Wood Philcentric EBB for standard shells

    Does anyone have more information, pictures, or pricing on the new Phil Wood Philcentric? It's an EBB for standard shells like the FC EBB or Tr!ckstuff Exzentriker. However, it's indexed at 15*, which seems like a viable solution to keep it from slipping. It might lead to creaking, though, and I'm still not sure how they ensure the indexing of the two cups are synched. I could see them not worrying about that, since the most the two sides would be off is 7.5*.

    http://www.philwood.com/products/bbpages/eccentric.php

  2. #2
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    interesting....

  3. #3
    nothing to see here
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    nice new website
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  4. #4
    miwuksurfer
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    There is a special alignment tool which must be purchased. I have one on the way. I'll post photos when I get it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by miwuksurfer
    There is a special alignment tool which must be purchased. I have one on the way. I'll post photos when I get it.
    post a full review please
    ~JPB

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  6. #6
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    Found a pic here: http://www.handlebarsandwich.com/09/...interbike-2010

    It's a long document - search for Philcentric and look at the next picture.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryker
    Found a pic here: http://www.handlebarsandwich.com/09/...interbike-2010

    It's a long document - search for Philcentric and look at the next picture.
    Great find. The pictures from the article are below. They show pretty clearly how the system works. My guess is the holes in the cups are threaded, and the two screws thread into the holes, keeping the eccentric tight.

    I guess you synch one side to the other by cranking it even tighter to rotate it?

    Also, I talked with Phil, and they said the weight should be around 250g.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Phil Wood Philcentric EBB for standard shells-phil1.jpg  

    Phil Wood Philcentric EBB for standard shells-phil2.jpg  


  8. #8
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    Edit: scratch that, looks like keyed dents in the outer surface of the frame-threaded disc.
    so undo the little 4 mm bolts, pull the outer disc outwards, re-position, bolt it back down.
    would certainly keep things for rotating on their own!
    but it means you're removing the non-drive side crankarm/bb cup to adjust the bb offset, n'est-ce-pas?

    edit numero dos: *blink blink* just remembered, the wife's raceface cranks have the bb axle fixed to the non drive side crankarm, not the driveside as with shimano... so pull that out, means the whole crank on the floor, re-adjust tension, etc...
    Last edited by byknuts; 10-26-2010 at 08:45 AM.
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by byknuts
    Edit: scratch that, looks like keyed dents in the outer surface of the frame-threaded disc.
    so undo the little 4 mm bolts, pull the outer disc outwards, re-position, bolt it back down.
    would certainly keep things for rotating on their own!
    but it means you're removing the non-drive side crankarm/bb cup to adjust the bb offset, n'est-ce-pas?
    I think you just have to remove the 2 screws and it should be able to turn without pulling outwards, so no crank removal.

    Looks like an interesting design, but I am still unsure how you keep the 2 sides in sync. Seems like they just thread into the frame, and the screw holes end up wherever they end up. We must be missing something.

    Mark

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    I think you just have to remove the 2 screws and it should be able to turn without pulling outwards, so no crank removal.

    Looks like an interesting design, but I am still unsure how you keep the 2 sides in sync. Seems like they just thread into the frame, and the screw holes end up wherever they end up. We must be missing something.
    With the indexing around the cup, I can't see the screws being what keep it from rotating. I'm pretty sure byknuts is correct that the eccentrics need to be pulled out to rotate them.

    Well, the most either cup would have to rotate to synch to the other one is 7.5*, so I could see it being a matter of just tightening the cup just a little more to rotate it.

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    I might be wrong about the whole non-drive side crankarm needing to be removed, but unless your spindle's fairly long you might not have enough room to get the outer disc past the indexing on the inner disc without removing it.
    Either better pics or descriptions or both shall go with him!!

    Edit: both cups need to be removed to re-set to a new location, look at the driveside cup there... standard crankarm to bb cup clearances, like 3mm. no way that's how short the "indexing" points are on the eccentric part.

    I'm going to assume that the installation tool aligns the two "frame" cups in the first place? ne'er to stray?
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  12. #12
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    ASK (and give me a boring lunch hour to faff about on the interwebs with) and ye shall receive...

    http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/10/28/...ames-and-more/
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by miwuksurfer
    There is a special alignment tool which must be purchased. I have one on the way. I'll post photos when I get it.
    Would you mind telling us how much you paid for the EBB and the tool?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    ...I am still unsure how you keep the 2 sides in sync. Seems like they just thread into the frame, and the screw holes end up wherever they end up.
    Interesting.

  15. #15
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    you can almost always get a few degrees of an extra turn, which would allow you to align the bolt holes. However, the torque on each cup would likely be unequal, although i doubt it would matter much. Looks like a major PITA to set up and adjust when your chain gets slack or you change gears. The FC one looks much more simple.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by forwardcomponents
    Interesting.
    I'm glad you edited your post.

  17. #17
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    My first though on the cup alignment problem would be for Phil to supply some thin washers/shims that fit between one of the cups and the frame.

    An assortment of .002 to .008 stainless shims would probably do the trick.

  18. #18
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    Wonder if these would work with any Phil BB. Would be a nice upgrade to my Fatback, assuming it's easily adjustable enough. My current gearing is close to a magic gear, but not quite there, so a tensioner is currently needed.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanetti
    the cup alignment problem
    Problem? The only problem I see is that posters are guessing how it would work based on a few pictures and vague conversations.
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wv_bob
    Problem? The only problem I see is that posters are guessing how it would work based on a few pictures and vague conversations.
    Actually, the link byknuts posted has a very clear explanation of how it works.

    Here it is again:
    http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/10/28/...ames-and-more/

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    Wonder if these would work with any Phil BB. Would be a nice upgrade to my Fatback, assuming it's easily adjustable enough. My current gearing is close to a magic gear, but not quite there, so a tensioner is currently needed.
    the EBB is it's own BB... according to the article posted it takes a shimano crank and spindle
    ~JPB

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpbova
    the EBB is it's own BB... according to the article posted it takes a shimano crank and spindle
    Right. I'm still awaiting a square taper compatible version... FC, Phil, whoever... which I don't actually expect will ever be produced.

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Right. I'm still awaiting a square taper compatible version... FC, Phil, whoever... which I don't actually expect will ever be produced.

    --sParty
    me too! I don't think it will happen either that's why the Ti single speed I'm building will have a Eno hub.

    It doesn't seem cost effective for a company to make a square taper EBB with all the spindle lengths and what not. What do I know though I don't run a BB company.
    ~JPB

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  24. #24
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    It seems to me a ST axle wouldn't be hard to make for an external bottom bracket, if you didn't mind the increase q factor.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    It seems to me a ST axle wouldn't be hard to make for an external bottom bracket, if you didn't mind the increase q factor.
    How much do you figure it would increase q compared to a standard 122mm sq taper spindle?

    I have to employ the long spindle in order to achieve ring/stay clearance anyway.

    Probably no need to answer, bad mech... it's certainly a moot point... will anyone really go to the effort to produce such a problem solver... I can't imagine. But it's fun to mentally go down that road a ways...

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    How much do you figure it would increase q compared to a standard 122mm sq taper spindle?

    I have to employ the long spindle in order to achieve ring/stay clearance anyway.

    Probably no need to answer, bad mech... it's certainly a moot point... will anyone really go to the effort to produce such a problem solver... I can't imagine. But it's fun to mentally go down that road a ways...

    --sParty
    My guess would be between 15 and 20mm more over stock, since that's the added width of the external cups.

    If I were to do it, and remember I'm not a ME or machinist, would be to make a 24mm axle with a ST at each end, with a bearing seat where the bearings would sit using a EBB on a 68mm shell. Then I'd use shims to space the cups out to match the axle. That's just my thought though.

    What size cranks are you running again? Isn't it something around 200mm? Is that size not available in an external BB crankset?

  27. #27
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    nothing vague about it.
    one external cup that holds the bearings, it has indexing "slugs" that locate in the indexed voids in the internal cup (read: screwed into frame) and are held down by 2x 4mm bolts per side.
    the slugs fitting into the voids (peg in hole) is the way of ensuring the external cups don't rotate under pressure, so an actual solid indexed stop instead of a set-screw.
    voids located at 15 degrees, tool is used to match side to side in the first place, once those internal cups are screwed down tight they shouldn't drift... so SHOULD stay synched side to side.

    makes sense! but since you'll have to remove enough of the external cup to rotate it to a new position, you might need to remove the crankarm as well... the pics show what seems to be a pretty deep engagement between the slugs and the voids, so I'd expect at least 5 or 6mm movement needed to disengage the external cup from the internal's indexing points and rotate it to the new position.
    seems set and forget, just tougher to set.

    (please don't regard my assertion about the need to remove a crankarm as a negative, set and forget is more important to me than routine re-adjustments)

    just for personal knowledge, anyone know whether this was one of phil's last projects?
    or was this entire design firmly post PW?
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    My guess would be between 15 and 20mm more over stock, since that's the added width of the external cups.

    If I were to do it, and remember I'm not a ME or machinist, would be to make a 24mm axle with a ST at each end, with a bearing seat where the bearings would sit using a EBB on a 68mm shell. Then I'd use shims to space the cups out to match the axle. That's just my thought though.

    What size cranks are you running again? Isn't it something around 200mm? Is that size not available in an external BB crankset?
    195mm. I have 4 "custom" 195mm cranks and they are expensive. I'd rather not buy another one if I can avoid it.

    That said, I seem to remember seeing Zinn (at least I thought) offering a custom length crank with a large diameter hollow axle/spindle/whatever you call it attached to the drive arm... but I checked his site and didn't find it. Seems like I saw it a year or so ago and it's price was in the neighborhood of $750.

    Not going there regardless. I'd rather invest that money in a new custom frame as opposed to a BB retrofit.

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  29. #29
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    please excuse my ignorance on this topic, but i am trying figure out haow exactly these things work. do they only work with a certain type of BB so obviuosly you cant use a square taper type BB.
    Could someone help explain it to me

    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwimtbr
    please excuse my ignorance on this topic, but i am trying figure out haow exactly these things work. do they only work with a certain type of BB so obviuosly you cant use a square taper type BB.
    You don't use it with a bottom bracket, as it is the bottom bracket. It's used with a external bottom bracket crankset, and the EBB replaces the external BB cups. This will be the third EBB for a standard BB shell, the other being the Trickstuff Exzentriker and the Forward Components EBB, which is what I use and recommend.

  31. #31
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    Stumbled across the installation instructions: http://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/philcentric.pdf

    Blue locktite is the only thing keeping the non drive side cup from loosening? Wonder how that's going to hold up to single speed abuse.

  32. #32
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    external bearing bottom brackets have the same thing holding them in place and they don't loosen
    ~JPB

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  33. #33
    All 26.5" all the time!
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    External BB cups are torqued to a certain spec, not left loose with the hopes of a thread locking agent to keep them from moving.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpbova
    external bearing bottom brackets have the same thing holding them in place and they don't loosen
    Did you read the instructions? Zanetti is right. You tighten the non-drive side cup all the way down, and then loosen it 1/4 turn, which you then use to synch the cups.

  35. #35
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    I don't have it in my hand. It's hard to visualize it correctly, but please tell me if I am wrong. The cups are still in the frame tightened until the edge of the cup hits the frame? that would keep it from moving, right? especially when the EBB is in the upper right handed postion?
    ~JPB

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    Did you read the instructions? Zanetti is right. You tighten the non-drive side cup all the way down, and then loosen it 1/4 turn, which you then use to synch the cups.
    no, I didn't read them. I understood a little better after I did read them
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  37. #37
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    Anyone have any images of this installed? And, like the other ones out there, it only works with external bb cranksets, correct?

  38. #38
    MSH
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    ...You tighten the non-drive side cup all the way down, and then loosen it 1/4 turn, which you then use to synch the cups.
    I read the PW instructions a few times and what I'm not understanding is at what point you actually snug the non-drive side cup down after synching the cups, since the non-drive cup is loosened the 1/4 turn prior to synching? It isn't clearly called out when you torque the non-drive side cup back down. I can only assume it's prior to installing the cup cover on step 9 of the install instructions, but does this screw up the synching?

    http://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/philcentric.pdf

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSH
    I read the PW instructions a few times and what I'm not understanding is at what point you actually snug the non-drive side cup down after synching the cups, since the non-drive cup is loosened the 1/4 turn prior to synching? It isn't clearly called out when you torque the non-drive side cup back down. I can only assume it's prior to installing the cup cover on step 9 of the install instructions, but does this screw up the synching?

    http://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/philcentric.pdf
    I don't think the cup is ever snugged down, and you're relying on the thread locker to keep it in place.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    I don't think the cup is ever snugged down, and you're relying on the thread locker to keep it in place.
    Wow.....to my feeble brain this doesn't seem like a component/area that you want to rely on Loctite to hold things in place. I might have to lob a call into PW to see what they have to say and just to confirm.

    Edit - sent them an email for confirmation
    Last edited by MSH; 11-29-2010 at 02:17 PM.

  41. #41
    MSH
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    Here's the feedback directly from one of the Phil Wood engineers on the non-drive side cup install....

    "The non-drive side of the Philcentric is held in place with Loctite. You want to get the non-drive cup threaded as far as you can into the frame while still keeping the cups aligned. Due to variances in frame widths, it may not be possible to snug the non-drive cup completely against the frame and maintain the necessary cup alignment. In this situation, the Loctite will prevent the cup from moving after it has fully cured overnight. Hopefully I have answered your question."

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSH
    Here's the feedback directly from one of the Phil Wood engineers on the non-drive side cup install....

    "The non-drive side of the Philcentric is held in place with Loctite. In this situation, the Loctite will prevent the cup from moving after it has fully cured overnight. Hopefully I have answered your question."

    speculation over, nothing's keyed, no solid stop, no friction, just cured loctite...
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by byknuts

    speculation over, nothing's keyed, no solid stop, no friction, just cured loctite...
    Yeah... I mean... uh... really? I'm so not there.

    Fortunately my bikes don't employ the style of cranks used with this EBB. Whew.

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  44. #44
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    i really am kind of anxious for this to become available. i absolutely love the way my homegrown frame rides, but i hate gears. i'd kill to ditch my surly chain tensioner for something like this (if this actually works well).

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomatoSS
    i really am kind of anxious for this to become available.....
    You can order it. Phil Wood is shipping them now...$190
    Last edited by MSH; 11-29-2010 at 08:43 PM.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSH
    You can order it. Phil Wood is shipping them now...$190
    do you have to call to order it? i dont see it on their online store.

  47. #47
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    wow, i'm surprised that someone is still excited about this fully cured loctite thingy. i'd stick with the tried and tested forward components.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSH
    You can order it. Phil Wood is shipping them now...$190
    For that price it better include Loctite.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomatoSS
    i really am kind of anxious for this to become available. i absolutely love the way my homegrown frame rides, but i hate gears. i'd kill to ditch my surly chain tensioner for something like this (if this actually works well).
    Just go with the Forward Components EBB (http://www.forwardcycle.com/). It's the same concept, and works extremely well. In fact, I'm using one on my Homegrown hardtail, and will soon be installing another one on my Homegrown Sweetspot.

    The downside to using one of these on a Homegrown is Homegrowns all used 73mm bottom bracket shells. The two solutions are to face the shell down to 68mm, or cut the granny ring mounts off the crankset you're using. Personally, I ended up facing down the shell:
    Another Forward Components EBB review

    Another good option on a Homegrown is the Eno Eccentric rear hub, but FC EBB is better and, in my opinion, is worth the extra hassle of installing.

  50. #50
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    Phils has been around for a while, and is known for making things that last. So I'd be willing to give them the benefit of doubt that they've tested this, and it works.

    That being said, I'm still running the FC eBB, and it definitely works. There are now 3 options, which is good.

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